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Me 410 and Mosquito

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2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

You'd have to define what "good success" is.

 

Well by "good success" I mean that they didn't have too much trouble actually catching the Mossies when they were properly guided, i.e. speed wasn't the issue. The problem for the 109's was spotting the Mossies.

 

2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Trouble was that beyond manging to bring down a Mosquito every once in a while, they mostly blew their engines apart doing so.

 

"Most" indicates over half lost their engines trying to chase a Mossie, are you sure about that? If so I'd love to see the source as that is rather dramatic.

 

With MW50 a properly maintained 109 could after all safely run at max boost for 10 min at a time, at least.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Panthera said:

With MW50 a properly maintained 109 could after all safely run at max boost for 10 min at a time, at least.

You think 10 min makes a difference when you have to be covering a "map" as large as Germany? For purposes of an intercept, it is not possible to do that for any plane when you are going at more or less similar speed. The only way that can get done is when ground control vectores you in a suitable position. Passive IR scopes are of no use at all for that. It's just a helper to locate your mark once ground controllers vectored you in the right place.

 

When talking about Me-109 night fighters, you mean "Wilde Sau"? Wiki says of that:

The success of Wilde Sau was short-lived and proved to be very costly to the 100 fighters of Fighter Division 30.

 

"Zahme Sau" was done AFAIK by twin engine planes, but directed at the heavy bombers. And their success was based on ground vectoring.

 

Any "650 km/h Me-109" would be encountering B Mk.XVI, meaning zero practical speed advantage. Catching them on the way in loaded with a cookie would give a chance. On the way out, it's good bye unless for one pass out of a good position.

 

Conversely, (Wiki) *... Some 258 Luftwaffe night fighters were claimed by the [100] Group, for the loss of some 70 Mosquitos. ..." I'd surely take a Mossie anytime over any German night fighter ride. Imagine, Me-109 had to act as night fighter escorts over enemy territory. That would have been a very short hobby.

 

Arados were never fitted with forward firing guns. It was a bomber. So it is up to the Me-262 or He-162 if you would want to put up noticeable opposition.

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1 hour ago, MiloMorai said:

Brem are talking about JG25 and 50?

 

And the JG 30X guys.

1 hour ago, Panthera said:

Well by "good success" I mean that they didn't have too much trouble actually catching the Mossies when they were properly guided, i.e. speed wasn't the issue. The problem for the 109's was spotting the Mossies.

 

That was not the case. The 109s had to be in perfect position to have any remote hope in catching the Mosquito (ideally above and set-up for the intercept).

They'd also blow through their entire remaining chasing-fuel at max power in minutes.

 

1 hour ago, Panthera said:

"Most" indicates over half lost their engines trying to chase a Mossie, are you sure about that? If so I'd love to see the source as that is rather dramatic.

 

With MW50 a properly maintained 109 could after all safely run at max boost for 10 min at a time, at least.

 

Why don't you just grab a book or two on the issue and read for yourself?

Like "Mosquitos über Berlin" or the JG 300 twin volume book by Jean Yves Lorant?

 

A 109 at Mosquito-altitude had already spent roughly 50-60% of the available fuel for getting up to altitude and getting into the operational area. That includes an external tank.

Add setting up an intercept or a delay/ deviation of the Mosquito's inbound track.

10min at max power does get you a long way away from your airfield.

 

Do the whole thing at night and it's sweaty buttcrack time. There were in fact a few pilots that preferred abandonning their 109 by chute rather than risking a landing at night.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

That was not the case. The 109s had to be in perfect position to have any remote hope in catching the Mosquito (ideally above and set-up for the intercept).

They'd also blow through their entire remaining chasing-fuel at max power in minutes.

 

Well like I said "when properly guided" I don't recall them having issues actually catching them, it was seeing them I recall was the big problem, which isn't a surprise seeing as even landing at night was a challenge.

 

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

Why don't you just grab a book or two on the issue and read for yourself?

Like "Mosquitos über Berlin" or the JG 300 twin volume book by Jean Yves Lorant?

 

I have read a few a while back, but I don't recall any mention that most aircraft blew their engines when chasing Mossies, something I would definitely have remembered, hence why I asked for a reference. My hunch being you exaggerated abit as a 50+% loss rate due to blown engines sounds quite extreme.

 

 

1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

You think 10 min makes a difference when you have to be covering a "map" as large as Germany? For purposes of an intercept, it is not possible to do that for any plane when you are going at more or less similar speed. The only way that can get done is when ground control vectores you in a suitable position. Passive IR scopes are of no use at all for that. It's just a helper to locate your mark once ground controllers vectored you in the right place.

 

Again I said "when they were properly guided" ;)

 

1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

ome 258 Luftwaffe night fighters were claimed by the [100] Group, for the loss of some 70 Mosquitos. ..." I'd surely take a Mossie anytime over any German night fighter ride. Imagine, Me-109 had to act as night fighter escorts over enemy territory. That would have been a very short hobby.

 

Remember though that claims often fall well short of actual shoot downs, even by day. So I think you can be pretty sure the actual number wasn't quite that high.

 

That said the prime targets for the German night fighters were the bombers, not the mossies. Add in the bomber losses and I think the German night fighters did a pretty good job all things considered. 

 

1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

Arados were never fitted with forward firing guns. It was a bomber. So it is up to the Me-262 or He-162 if you would want to put up noticeable opposition.

 

No there were at least two B-2's converted into Nightfighters, designated Ar234B-2/N serving with Kommando Bonow. 

 

Me262's had success fighting the mossies, with zero losses sustained for a fairly large amount of claims. But it was obviously too little too late.

Edited by Panthera

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On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 6:01 PM, Panthera said:

Me262's had success fighting the mossies, with zero losses sustained for a fairly large amount of claims. But it was obviously too little too late.

 

Good read here:

 

https://www.nachtjagd-me262.org/

 

https://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2018/12/mosquitos-over-berlin-chat-with-andreas.html

 

 

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Posted (edited)

There is a book which went into more detail about the German nightfighter squadrons, but I can't remember the name atm. One of the authors, Erich Brown (not to be confused with the Eric "Winkle" Brown ;) ), was active over on the Axis History Forum. 

 

To qoute him:

"Yes there were several aces flying the Me 262A-1a, Heinz Bär scoring at least 12-16 along with another 20 or so pilots with 9-12 claims. JG 7 had roughly 450 victories many on the Ost Front in April-May of 1945 and only a scant few know of these. JV 44 under Adolf Galland had about 50. 10./NJG 11 under Kurt Welter and flying the jet at night had around 50 as well but these will be covered in our book....... "

Edited by Panthera

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26 minutes ago, Panthera said:

There is a book which went into more detail about the German nightfighter squadrons, but I can't remember the name atm. One of the authors, Erich, is active over on the Axis History Forum

 

I only know Erik Moombeek, but he hasn´t published about Nachtjagd.

 

http://www.luftwaffe.be/

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Posted (edited)

Eric Mombeek has actually cowritten on the subject AFAIK.

 

But Erich Brown is the name of the author I am talking about, atleast as far as I know. Used to follow his posts over on the Axis History Forum years ago, sadly never got around to posting there myself though, would've loved to talk to him.

Edited by Panthera

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8 minutes ago, Panthera said:

Eric Mombeek has actually cowritten on the subject:

https://www.scalemates.com/books/jagdwaffe-volume-2-section-1-luftwaffe-colours-eric-mombeek-david-wadman-eddie-jcreek--102535

 

But Erich Brown is the name of the author I am talking about, atleast as far as I know. 

 

Yes on the Battle of Britain stuff, but not on the Nachtjagd, that was done by Davis Williams:

 

Don´t know Erich Brown. Only know Eric "Wrinkle" Brown the RAF Test Pilot.

NJ1.jpg

NJ2.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Yes it isn't Eric "Winkle" Brown, his name is Erich Brown and he is american AFAIK. I remember he used to be a member of the former US nightfighter community. Him & his cowrtier did a wealth of interviews with former LW pilots,  and used to post quite a bit over on the AH forum. I just wish I could remember the name of the book.

 

That said I hope he is still alive, I remember he struggled with cancer for a while.

Edited by Panthera

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Panthera said:

Yes it isn't Eric "Winkle" Brown, his name is Erich Brown and he is american AFAIK. I remember he used to be a member of the former US nightfighter community. 

 

I hope he is still alive, I remember he struggled with cancer for a while.

 

I see. Falke Eins has a mention of a guy with this name here:

 

(with thanks to Erich Brown for P-61 ETO operations log Reports)

 

https://falkeeinsgreatplanes.blogspot.com/2011/01/eto-p-61-425th-night-fighter-squadron.html

 

BTW: P-61 Black Widow would also make for an excellent collectors item 🙂

Edited by sevenless

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Posted (edited)

Yeah that has to be the guy, I really do hope he is still alive. He interviewed a great number of LW NF veterans back in the late 90's early 2000's, a luxury current authors don't have. He was also able to look through the German claim registry, and cross reference claims vs losses etc, so I would absolutely love to read his work, yet I can't locate it. I hope cancer didn't put a stop to his books, and if so then that atleast his cowriter will release it.

Edited by Panthera

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1 minute ago, Panthera said:

Yeah that has to be the guy, I really do hope he is still alive. He interviewed a great number of LW NF veterans back in the late 90's early 2000's, a luxury current authors don't have. He was also able to look through the German claim registry, and cross reference claims vs losses etc, so I would absolutely love to read his work, yet I can't locate it. I hope cancer didn't put a stop to his books, and if so then atleast his cowriter will release it.

 

As far as I can judge the matter, he hasn´t written any publication, so we have tough luck with regard to that data collection.

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30 minutes ago, Panthera said:

That said I hope he is still alive, I remember he struggled with cancer for a while.

 

A post I read over at another forum yesterday indicated he was, but the illness had slowed the work down significantly. He didn't post himself.

It's unclear how far off the book-project is nowadays.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Panthera said:

There is a book which went into more detail about the German nightfighter squadrons, but I can't remember the name atm. One of the authors, Erich Brown (not to be confused with the Eric "Winkle" Brown ;) ), was active over on the Axis History Forum. 

 

To qoute him:

"Yes there were several aces flying the Me 262A-1a, Heinz Bär scoring at least 12-16 along with another 20 or so pilots with 9-12 claims. JG 7 had roughly 450 victories many on the Ost Front in April-May of 1945 and only a scant few know of these. JV 44 under Adolf Galland had about 50. 10./NJG 11 under Kurt Welter and flying the jet at night had around 50 as well but these will be covered in our book....... "

 

Just saw your edit: Yes I would love to see a JG7 publication. Best done by Jochen Prien and/or Peter Rodeike or by Eric Moombeek. Those names stand for quality research.

 

As for Kurt Welter and the activities of 10./NJG 11 and the 10./JG300 stuff, go with Andreas Zapf for NJG 11 and Jean-Yves Lorant and Richard Guyat  for JG 300.

 

BTW: There is an article available online by Jean-Yves Lorant + Neil Page for just 4 EUR, which deals with the subject at hand:

 

https://airwarpublications.com/product/wilde-sau-und-moskitojagd/

 

WS.jpg

WS1.jpg

Edited by sevenless

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Yeah, I do actually remember Erich saying that Lorant's work was incomplete in many ways back then (several years ago), mainly a lack of primary sources. Hence why I was really looking forward to his book(s), esp. since they were to cover more than just night fighter squadrons. He also had something planned on the Ta-152 I remember.

2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

A post I read over at another forum yesterday indicated he was, but the illness had slowed the work down significantly. He didn't post himself.

It's unclear how far off the book-project is nowadays.

 

Well I hope it gets completed, would be a real shame for such a massive amount of research and countless interviews not to get published.

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Hmm... I guess the "Don't post swastikas"-rule doesn't apply any longer? 🤔

 

 

Anyway... look what youtube just threw my way:

 

 

 

S.

 

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I would *love* a Mozzie. Shame their's no map with a factory sitting under an overhanging rock....

 

Hums 633 squadron theme tune....

  • Haha 3

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I'm quite surprised, and shocked frankly, that they assembled that engine in the open hangar with all that other work taking place around it, and not in a proper "clean" engine assembly room.

Seems a formula for disaster to me.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Panthera said:

Yeah, I do actually remember Erich saying that Lorant's work was incomplete in many ways back then (several years ago), mainly a lack of primary sources. 

 

Well, unless that claim is substantiated it has no bearing, especially not if mentioned by a guy online who has no published track record whatsoever.

Edited by sevenless
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13 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I'm quite surprised, and shocked frankly, that they assembled that engine in the open hangar with all that other work taking place around it, and not in a proper "clean" engine assembly room.

Seems a formula for disaster to me.

I‘ve seen such with a DB6 engine that was in for a large overhaul. After they put it back together, it took only an hour or sp before it started leaking oil such that it even became a whorry for a british car engine. Tunrned out that someone was doing some grit blasting in another part of the hangar and some of that stuck to engine any cylinder internals, effectively destroying the engine.

 

Took a different shop and a quarter million $ to get it going again. At least now with an official Aston Martin tag and rated at zero kilometers wear.

 

If the shop is not all clean, it should never see an open engine.

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4 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

Well, unless that claim is substantiated it has no bearing, especially not if mentioned by a guy online who has no published track record whatsoever.

 

Well no, but he does list his sources so it's easy to check. 

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5 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I'm quite surprised, and shocked frankly, that they assembled that engine in the open hangar with all that other work taking place around it, and not in a proper "clean" engine assembly room.

Seems a formula for disaster to me.

 

This thing is never 'gonna fly.

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3 hours ago, Panthera said:

 

Well no, but he does list his sources so it's easy to check. 

 

That is up to him to discuss with Lorant then. Lorant has interviewed JG300 members over 30 years btw.

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13 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

Doesn't look like a 'clean room' to me,

Actually, it seems cleaner than the other one. They are doing all the same work in this hall, no fancy business (like someone using a cut-off wheel for whatever besides assembling these blocks) that might lead to surprises. It is actually a nice shop, floor reasonably clean and all in order.

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2 hours ago, sevenless said:

That is up to him to discuss with Lorant then. Lorant has interviewed JG300 members over 30 years btw.

 

And his work is held at very high regard with vets and scholars.

 

 

@Milo did they build the Merlins for the canadian Mossies at Britain and ship them over to Downsview, or did they have a canadian Merlin-production, too?

 

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2 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

That is up to him to discuss with Lorant then. Lorant has interviewed JG300 members over 30 years btw.

 

It's not that, it's the claims registry AFAIK. Either way it doesn't matter, I just remember him mentioning it. 

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1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

And his work is held at very high regard with vets and scholars.

 

 

@Milo did they build the Merlins for the canadian Mossies at Britain and ship them over to Downsview, or did they have a canadian Merlin-production, too?

 

 

I believe they used Packard Merlins.

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Makes sense, Detroit is a lot closer than England, and the engines were every bit as good, if not better.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

And his work is held at very high regard with vets and scholars.

 

True that. Especially vets were very pleased with his work, which tells me he painted the picture in a mostly accurate way. Some errors due to the language barrier, but nothing serious.

 

 https://www.jg300.de/jg300.html and https://www.jg300.de/wichtiges.html

Edited by sevenless

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Great docu on the Mossie on YT:

 

Truly was a magnificient aircraft.

 

 

 

 

 

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I need my German heavy fighter fix at bodenplatte.

Only P-38 can help me now.

 

Give german heavy fighter i have monay:help:

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Godspeed said:

I need my German heavy fighter fix at bodenplatte.

Only P-38 can help me now.

 

Give german heavy fighter i have monay:help:

 

Haha yeah, would love to see a Ju-88G6 or G7 NF or Me410 added as well. Would be a nice addition along with one of the later Mossies.

Edited by Panthera

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On 1/3/2019 at 3:50 AM, 1Sascha said:

I love both of them.

The Mossie is an icon IMO and has been criminally under-represented in flight sims.

 

While the 410 isn't as much of an icon, it's still a pretty sexy plane and, sadly, I know of even fewer games that have modelled it.

 

Thing is: The perfect companion for the Mossie would (IMO) be a different LW plane, namely the He 219 Uhu.

 

 

My ideal scenario for these two to be included is a "Nightfighters over the Reich" kinda deal. But for that, we'd need four-engined bombers like the Lancaster, so ... 🤔

 

S.

 

I would be so happy if they could not just introduce the Mossie and the Uhu in a nightfighter installment, but actually model some radar usage, kind of like this (apparently quite buggy) mod from 1946.

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Ach dont get me started. I would love to see a "great battles: battle of the ruhr" or something. The upcoming B25 has three turrets (too many turrets is always the quoted reason we can't expect heavies), same as a Lanc or a Halifax - throw in a couple of night fighters and we're there.

 

Bur that's daydreaming, me thinks. Night flying was a too technical kind of flying, it would revolve around radar and radio navigation for the bombers, radar target-seeking for the fighters.... I imagine it would be an excessively "pro" sim for the average taste. So I dont imagine it being developed anytime in the forseable future....

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The He219 Uhu is the dream of dreams, well, at least until the team come to their senses and start building only interwar seaplanes for the ultimate Great Battles: Porco Rosso.

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we all know what the game needs, a Me 410B in with the U-4 modification available

Spoiler


Bildergebnis für me 410 u-4

 

 

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