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Me 410 and Mosquito

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I agree with others in this thread and think the Ar 234 along the Mosquito would be the perfect choice, reasons have all been brought up already, i'd buy both of them instantly as Collectors for Bobp

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2 hours ago, 1Sascha said:

I love both of them.

The Mossie is an icon IMO and has been criminally under-represented in flight sims.

 

While the 410 isn't as much of an icon, it's still a pretty sexy plane and, sadly, I know of even fewer games that have modelled it.

 

Thing is: The perfect companion for the Mossie would (IMO) be a different LW plane, namely the He 219 Uhu.

 

Ghe219-index.jpg

 

My ideal scenario for these two to be included is a "Nightfighters over the Reich" kinda deal. But for that, we'd need four-engined bombers like the Lancaster, so ... 🤔

 

S.

One of my favorites. I think it would've made an incredible heavy day fighter. All of the resources thrown at the Bf-110 and the Me-210/410, not to mention trying to make bomber interceptors out of multiple versions of the Ju-88 family, could have been used in getting this airplane in the air sooner. Given its high speed, It could've been a dangerous opponent even after the introduction of Allied long range fighter escorts. Besides it's just a very attractive design in my eyes. Much more so than most German aircraft. 

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Posted (edited)

During my research into 2TAF I have catalogued the variety of Mosquitos and their engine types that would need modeling for this to happen:

 

2TAF                    Key:
Mosquito VI IX XII XIII XVI XVII XVIII Tsetse XXX   Night Fighter
Squadrons: 418 140 264 29 140 219 219 219   Strike Fighter
  605     409 400   488 410   Bomber
  613     264 4     488   Photorecon
  305     604            
  107     488            
  21     409            
  487                  
Engine M22/23/24/25 M72* M21/23 M21/23 M72*/73*/76*/77* M21/23 M22/23/24/25 M72*/76*/113*    
*=2sp 2stg SC                    

 

 

It would make most sense for us to get a Merlin 22/23/25 Strike Fighter Mk. VI, however these are absolutely slow compared to the opposition in late 44/early 45 and don't have the power to climb high and level bomb without a 7-series two-stage supercharger.

Edited by Talon_
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Neither the Me 410, which doesn't fit BoBP at all, nor the Mosquito, which didn't operate (except PR) from bases within the BoBP map throughout the given timeframe, are of interest to me.
The Ar 234 and B-25C/D (Mitchell II) are my primary choices and the best bet anyway, closely followed by the Typhoon.

 

But as many of you seem to be rather intrigued by twin-engined, propeller-driven attack aircraft, I suggest taking a look at the fast, heavily armed P-61B "Black Widow".

This aircraft would truly be unique in featuring and thereby introducing radar. It would add night fighting to the game without requiring a new/bigger map or heavy bombers, as the Widows encountered Ju 87 & Fw 190 of the Nachtschlachtgruppen. Adding to this, they themselves frequently flew intruder & ground attack missions during the BoBP timeframe. The P-61B would truly be a versatile and unique addition.

The 422nd Night Fighter Squadron and a detachment of 414th NFS were based within the map, 425 NFS close by.

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Posted (edited)

Why was it four engined bombers haven't been added yet? Never seen the thread where this was explained? I remember some poster saying it had something to do with the number of AI gunners needing to be simulated, but considering the amount present in previous 777 & 1C titles that seems odd.

Edited by Panthera

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Panthera said:

Why was it four engined bombers haven't been added yet? Never seen the thread where this was explained? 

There have been several. Too labor intensive, too demanding of computer resouces, game engine not suited to that style of play come to mind among other reasons.

Edited by Rjel
clarity
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20 hours ago, 150GCT_Veltro said:

Yes off course.

messerschmitt-me-410-wwii-aircraft-photoWW2-Mosquito.jpg

I remember this photo of Mosquitoes being used by Archie of No.105 Dinger Squadron for his web page back in the olden times of EAW. I think this airplane could be the crown jewel of this series were it to be introduced.

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We defo need a Mossi not too sure about the 410.

 

 

I defo feel like collectors planes do not need to have fit in to a theater only if they were used irl. I think it is perfectly fine if they could have been used for example no to a Zero if we only had a BOB map but yes if the plane existed at the time and could have been consivably used.

 

Collector plane are for a bit of fun and wonder not just to make the rivet counters happy.

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A good quality Mosquito sim would have me set for life, I think. I wouldn't need another plane again (except maybe more Mosquito variants)

 

The FB.VI would be my choice, as it could perform the widest variety of missions while still having acceptable performance as an attack aircraft in BoBP, and you could possibly create some 1942/1943 strike missions off of the coast, using its agility to hit specific buildings in the cities while evading 109s and dodging flak... You could also load it up with rockets and go on anti-shipping strikes, which are always a ton of fun

image.png.8b979fb67a169f4b1bd5583abfad0b6a.png

 

My one wonder is if they'd allow players to sit in the second seat? There isn't much to do there but you can't really see the bomb sight on the B. variants from the pilot's seat. NF variants sort of require radar to be meaningful and that'd be a whole new layer of difficulty for the devs to deal with, but it'd be highly rewarding gameplay and I imagine great fun to work as a team. If you don't have a player to guide in the radar maybe an AI could just read callouts of distance and angle from you?

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On 1/3/2019 at 3:53 PM, Rjel said:

One of my favorites. I think it would've made an incredible heavy day fighter. All of the resources thrown at the Bf-110 and the Me-210/410, not to mention trying to make bomber interceptors out of multiple versions of the Ju-88 family, could have been used in getting this airplane in the air sooner. Given its high speed, It could've been a dangerous opponent even after the introduction of Allied long range fighter escorts. Besides it's just a very attractive design in my eyes. Much more so than most German aircraft. 

 

The He 219 is way overrated. It never reached it's supposed performance and it never lived up to it's promises.

In fact, the late Ju 88 night fighters came very close to the specs of the He 219 - and the Ju 88 didn't use up additional manufactoring slots or precious DB 603 engines.

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5 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

The He 219 is way overrated. It never reached it's supposed performance and it never lived up to it's promises.

In fact, the late Ju 88 night fighters came very close to the specs of the He 219 - and the Ju 88 didn't use up additional manufactoring slots or precious DB 603 engines.

The He-219 was allowed to languish for a couple of years because the need for it wasn't apparent or was ignored. Had other less capable aircraft been discontinued and their factories retooled for the manufacture of the He-219 then it might have become a fully matured design. A major mistake made by Germany was its lack of standardization on fewer designs instead of spreading their dwindling resources on more and more visionary aircraft. Thankfully for history's sake, those mistakes were never rectified. 

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The languishing has been a subject any german aircraft-manufacturer had to suffer.

The 219 was fully mature and still didn't perform substantially better than any off-the-shelf late-war Ju 88G-6.

 

Retooling a factory and taking it out of production for half a year to produce a marginally better airplane, while introducing another supply chain management has no use at all.

 

Yes, the 110 should have had a successor in 1944, but that was hardly the He 219. That would have been the Ta 154, which had also been shot down by politics rather than by performance.

Btw: The Ta 154 actually could have held it's own during the daytime (if freed of nightfighter-equipment), while the He 219 was just another medium bomber sized big ass target in the sky.

 

The He 219 was rightfully cut short:

It didn't bring any sizeable addition in performance, was way to late to the party and ate up precious DB 603 engines that by that time were desperately needed in the single engine dayfighter role.

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We really need that Mossie in BoBP. Me 410 has no business in BoBP. Unless we get a 1943/44 Defense of the Reich Scenario, where this crap plane was aimed at,  this plane is utterly useless. Give us a Ta 154 instead. Would make a great "what if" and would be on par with the mossie.

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1 hour ago, sevenless said:

Me 410 has no business in BoBP. Unless we get a 1943/44 Defense of the Reich Scenario, where this crap plane was aimed at,  this plane is utterly useless. Give us a Ta 154 instead. Would make a great "what if" and would be on par with the mossie

 

The Me 410 is only a crap plane in terms of needing 3 years to be developed from the Me 210 and being made front-ready when it's window of opportunity was almost gone.

It was a good airplane and in every bit comparable to the Mosquito.

 

Yes it didn't operate during the depictied timeframe within the depicted area, but it did a couple of months before and it would make a great sparring partner for the Mosquito.

 

But then again, so would a late-war Ju 88.

 

I'd totally buy a "Battle of the Ju 88" expansion-pack, that gives us a Zerstörer C, a late war S bomber and a late war G night-fighter.

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3 hours ago, sevenless said:

Give us a Ta 154 instead. Would make a great "what if" and would be on par with the mossie.

 

And that would be a useless plane for SP, in effect just a plane for overly vocal MP players who don't give a darn about anyone else. 

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Posted (edited)

As a little idea : at some point there will be a lot of Battle of.... plus lonely collector planes in the store, I feel that it might scare the newcomers that'll see they need a lot of money to get the most complete collection, so I think that in the future the dev should add the possibility to buy those collector planes in one pack so we could have for an example : collector planes pack 1 with ju-152, po-2, bf 109 G6, La5FN, Yak-1b + one other plane at the same price than the battle of...

Edited by Eicio

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I also would love to see these two planes but i do feel it would be easier for them to make a modification to the Ju-88

 

8cb3fd8e7c000da1fb0a0ea557185636.jpg

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Posted (edited)

 

Just now, Heshima said:

I also would love to see these two planes but i do feel it would be easier for them to make a modification to the Ju-88

 

8cb3fd8e7c000da1fb0a0ea557185636.jpg

 

 

I'm no Ju88 expert, but I thought that the Ju-88 G (if this is a Ju 88-G) owing to the tail being more square looking had its tail painted to look like a Ju 88-C, or am i barking up the wrong tree as the tail looks like a normal Ju-88 C model?

Any experts on the Ju88?

 

Regards

 

 

 

Edited by Haza

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29 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

And that would be a useless plane for SP, in effect just a plane for overly vocal MP players who don't give a darn about anyone else. 

 

Nah, only valid argument should be if it sells or not. If possibly not, it´s a waste of ressources better invested elsewhere. Same goes for TA 152 H0/H1, will possibly sell like sliced bread as a Meteor F3 would do. You can do plane specific campaigns if you don´t want to have them in the career and both SP and MP crowd would be happy. Easy Money, just do it! 🙂

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3 hours ago, sevenless said:

We really need that Mossie in BoBP. Me 410 has no business in BoBP. Unless we get a 1943/44 Defense of the Reich Scenario, where this crap plane was aimed at,  this plane is utterly useless. Give us a Ta 154 instead. Would make a great "what if" and would be on par with the mossie.

 

What If - Me163 vs Sopwith Camel.

It could happen...German pilot flies through a singularity and finds himself in WW1.

He shrugs, mumbles "sometimes you just have to say what the F"... and just keeps on flying and shooting.

 

My money is on the Camel if gunner is up to snuff.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

But then again, so would a late-war Ju 88.

 

I'd totally buy a "Battle of the Ju 88" expansion-pack, that gives us a Zerstörer C, a late war S bomber and a late war G night-fighter.

 

Ju 88S and Ju 188 would fit both the setting and add some more relevant two-engine planes for the GAF. If you read the 2nd TAF claims, you can find they shot down a few of those between 9/44 and 4/45. Could operate from airfields from the North/east Corner of the map. Heck BoS even has the FW 190 A3 which wasn´t operating in the whole scenario and was integrated in the game.

 

3 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

My money is on the Camel if gunner is up to snuff.

 

You can possibly watch a flic of that on YT by Arianne Scharfi killing five of those rocket planes with a flare gun it it gets integrated.

Edited by sevenless

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Just now, Gambit21 said:

 

What If - Me163 vs Sopwith Camel.

It could happen...German pilot flies through a singularity and finds himself in WW1.

He shrugs, mumbles "sometimes you just have to say what the F"... and just keeps on flying and shooting.

 

My money is on the Camel if gunner is up to snuff.

 

The Final Countdown 2?

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2 minutes ago, Haza said:

 

The Final Countdown 2?

 

Exacly.

Only it’s a very short movie because of the 163’s flight time. lol

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

The He 219 is way overrated. It never reached it's supposed performance and it never lived up to it's promises.

In fact, the late Ju 88 night fighters came very close to the specs of the He 219 - and the Ju 88 didn't use up additional manufactoring slots or precious DB 603 engines.

 

Well most of the performance was lost to the radar antenna installation, radio equipment and heavy anti-bomber armament (Schrägemusik). Lightened up for Mossie chasing duty the A7 could apparently reach close to 700 km/h, which is impressive. 

Edited by Panthera

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1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Exacly.

Only it’s a very short movie because of the 163’s flight time. lol

The finale would end with a bang though. A big bang.

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2 hours ago, Haza said:

 

 

 

I'm no Ju88 expert, but I thought that the Ju-88 G (if this is a Ju 88-G) owing to the tail being more square looking had its tail painted to look like a Ju 88-C, or am i barking up the wrong tree as the tail looks like a normal Ju-88 C model?

Any experts on the Ju88?

 

Regards

 

 

 

It a Ju-88 C-6  the Ju-88 G had the tail that looks like a 188  also the fuselage gondola deleted. The rear gunner position is also different on the G series.  And depending on the version some of the earlier G had BMW radial engine and the later ones such as the G-6 had Jumo 213A  and the G-7 had the 213E which was a big improvement in speed compare to the previous versions. 

ju88g6_03.jpg

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1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

 

I could see myself flying the Black Widow, oh yes I could.

 

That Baby indeed would make sense to be integrated. Both on map of BoBP (Florennes) and a real purpose in SP with intercepting Nachtschlachtgruppen and doing ground pounding missions, as  422nd Night Fighter Squadron did.

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2 hours ago, Panthera said:

Well most of the performance was lost to the radar antenna installation, radio equipment and heavy anti-bomber armament (Schrägemusik). Lightened up for Mossie chasing duty the A7 could apparently reach close to 700 km/h, which is impressive. 

 

Which has never been demonstrated and no A-7 did act in that role.

The 219 suffered from the Jumo 222 not being in service.

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12 hours ago, =621=Samikatz said:

A good quality Mosquito sim would have me set for life, I think. I wouldn't need another plane again (except maybe more Mosquito variants)

 

Ah...you and me both. :drinks:

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3 hours ago, Panthera said:

 

Well most of the performance was lost to the radar antenna installation, radio equipment and heavy anti-bomber armament (Schrägemusik). Lightened up for Mossie chasing duty the A7 could apparently reach close to 700 km/h, which is impressive. 

 

The flame dampers were also removed. Pretty easy to dodge that flying flare in the night sky.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, sevenless said:

Nah, only valid argument should be if it sells or not.

 

Nonsense. Jason himself said recently that SP players make up 95% of the game's base. That means the majority of people are going to look to things like career mode to derive fun from the game. So, based on that, what the hell would a Ta 154 bring to career mode? Absolutely nothing. Static campaigns (if anyone would be bothered to do them) would be entirely fictional. Not to mention, it would a waste of resources that could be used for a whole host of other twin-engine planes that were actually relevant to the conflict - latewar Ju 88s, the Ar 234, the Bf 110F, B-25 C/D, P-61, Mosquito, etc., etc. Something like the Ta 154 is what you reserve development time for only once other more relevant planes are added and/or can be developed by a third party without draining the time and resources of the main development team.

Edited by LukeFF
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As much as I would love to have both planes, I really think they shouldn't be released as collector aircraft but as part of a new BoX module, for example Normandy. Releasing too many individual collector aircraft causes the problem that we will sooner or later run out of relevant aircraft types for new modules.  At the moment this is especially a problem for the German side.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Which has never been demonstrated and no A-7 did act in that role.

The 219 suffered from the Jumo 222 not being in service.

 

650 km/h was demonstrated by the A-6 (field stripped A-2), Mossie hunting being prepared for in the field. So an A-7 used for the same purpose would've been around 35-40 km/h faster. Wether any A-7 acted in that role or not I think would be very hard to figure out due to it being a field mod and not a factory configuration. 

 

6 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

 

The flame dampers were also removed. Pretty easy to dodge that flying flare in the night sky.

 

Where is this written? Either way Im not so sure it would be easy to spot as you'd have to be behind it to really see the exhaust flames. 

 

Edited by Panthera

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2 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

As much as I would love to have both planes, I really think they shouldn't be released as collector aircraft but as part of a new BoX module, for example Normandy. Releasing too many individual collector aircraft causes the problem that we will sooner or later run out of relevant aircraft types for new modules.  At the moment this is especially a problem for the German side.

 

The solution to that is to stop implementing the idea that the are are "two sides" that get equal numbers of aeroplane types and instead use the idea that there are three airforces that should get equal treatment (in BoBP or a Normandy scenario) or four (in a N.Africa scenario including the Italians).

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2 hours ago, Panthera said:

650 km/h was demonstrated by the A-6 (field stripped A-2), Mossie hunting being prepared for in the field. So an A-7 used for the same purpose would've been around 35-40 km/h faster. Wether any A-7 acted in that role or not I think would be very hard to figure out due to it being a field mod and not a factory configuration. 

 

Trouble is, 650kph is insufficient to reliably catch a Mosquito, unless starting directly behind it's tail and less than 2-3km away.

 

Mossie-hunting is for jets only.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Trouble is, 650kph is insufficient to reliably catch a Mosquito, unless starting directly behind it's tail and less than 2-3km away.

 

Mossie-hunting is for jets only.

 

I agree it wasn't ideal, and it required good guidance from ground radar, but it was the only solution for the He219 units. 

 

That said apparently Bf109 night fighters had good success catching the Mossies, problem for them was actually spotting them, the solution to which was the addition of passive IR scopes late in the war. 

 

The Me262B-2 was obviously the best solution catching Mossies, and the Ar234 would've also been great for the role but AFAIK only 4-6 Arados ever operated in the nightfighter role. Definitely a missed opportunity there.

Edited by Panthera

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You'd have to define what "good success" is.

I had a debate with some dude on facebook some months ago about Mosquito hunting and he wanted to sell the Mossie hunting groups as successful outfits to me.

Trouble was that beyond manging to bring down a Mosquito every once in a while, they mostly blew their engines apart doing so.

You either have lots of fighters to put up a dense screen, sor you have a sufficient delta v to catch up on the intruder.

The 109s they used also had the problem of being low on gas the moment they reached operational altitude.

The whole outfit was a stop-gap and never reliably managed to deny Mosquito operations. They didn't even really put a dent into the Mossi ops.

 

Whether Arados or a He 219A-7 ever went operational depends on the source. Most peope who have done extensive research on the topic are very skeptical about either seing frontline service. By any means, the nightfighting force was in shambles in 1945.

 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Panthera said:

Where is this written? Either way Im not so sure it would be easy to spot as you'd have to be behind it to really see the exhaust flames. 

 

 

I believe it was in a 219 book by Roland Remi.

 

It is not the flames but the glow from the exhaust.

 

Brem are talking about JG25 and 50?

Edited by MiloMorai

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