Game version 3.008 discussion: Damage model update, fixes and improvements

[Max_Damage]

Im happy with the patch and i ve always disliked the amount of wing kills that occur in this game.

 

Btw this is going to be a huge benefit for bf109 and fw190 which often lost wings under fire.

 

Also i think that something has changed with AP ammo because the amount of UBS/shvak pilot kills has reduced by A LOT.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Max_Damage

[GAVCA/Jambock__28]

I have not tested the new DM yet. I'm looking forward to finding my Jug as tough like this 

 

 

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

45 minutes ago, Max_Damage said:

Btw this is going to be a huge benefit for bf109 and fw190 which often lost wings under fire.

 

It's a double edged sword. Snapshots are less effective at instantly removing an enemy plane from the fight, which is the style of fighting the 109 and 190 planes typically encourage.

 

You have to be very careful about not overshooting a plane after hitting them as they are still very much combat effective for the same hits now.

 

 

[Legioneod]

3 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

 

It's a double edged sword. Snapshots are less effective at instantly removing an enemy plane from the fight, which is the style of fighting the 109 and 190 planes typically encourage.

 

You have to be very careful about not overshooting a plane after hitting them as they are still very much combat effective for the same hits now.

 

 

Not necessarily, I've had single hits take out control rods or damage me to where I can't fight effectively.

[Legioneod]

3 minutes ago, Sheriff88 said:

Is it just me or does everyone look at the P-47 as the "designated mort"??!! Flying multiple engagements involving Many vs Many or just dueling 1v1 against the Bolt, it comes across as the dumbest AI in game. Flying duels with aircraft engaging at altitude  3500meters with 50% fuel and Enemy Skill set to "Ace" it's too easy to control the engagement . K-4 is all over the P-47. I even downed 3 in a mission flying a BF-110E with basic armament. It shouldn't be that easy. Right??

The ai is stupid but the P-47 is a high altitude fighter as well. Try raising the altitude to around 7-8,000 meters. Ai will still be stupid at that altitude but maybe it'll perform better.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

So, after six pages, I see the new DM is both a fabulous technical achievement as well as an outrageous affront to mankind........

[JG27*PapaFly]

Dear developers, as a faithful customer I'm really disappointed. I had expected that you fix e.g.

- the overheat issue in the FW-190 A8

- the fact that the spit9 never overheats

- the missing gyroscopic forces in the spit9.

- game stability issues

 

Instead, we get new bugs, like the massively nerfed MK-108 30 mm.

 

My impression of a low quality, sub-par product grows stronger every week.

[ShamrockOneFive]

So I had some time to do a little testing tonight (busy with plenty of other things). Flew a Yak-1 and downed 4 109s. It's anecdotal but I had assumed that they were really soaking up the damage and that you just had to use up a huge amount of ammo to bring them down. You don't. They do take a few more hits here and there but not anything shocking.

 

Took a Bf109K-4 to see the "massively nerfed MK108" and I couldn't find any evidence of that. One hit to a P-47 and I had peppered his entire aircraft. He crashed a short time later. Or if I want the more spectacular... 3-4 hits will obliterate just about anything (unless you work really hard to make every shell hit a different part of the aircraft). Split a Pe-2's wing right off. A Spitfire lost a wing and lit on fire at the same time.

 

Ultimately I think the total change is more on the subtle side with the exception of a few named aircraft in the patch notes (like the P-47). Structural failure is a little less frequent but all of the other effects are all still there and they do tend to reward shooting vital components like engines, the fuel tanks, ammo boxes, and other components a little more than before. I think this is a positive change and things are looking great!

Edited December 7, 2018 by ShamrockOneFive

[SShrike]

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 12:13 PM, Kalthios said:

3. Force Feedback joystick owners who experience stutters can alter the new value in startup.cfg that governs the maximum frequency of FFB effects polling to try to eliminate them (update_freq parameter in [KEY = force_feedback] section can be set to a value from 0.5 Hz to 10 Hz, example: update_freq = 10.0);

 

Thank you for this. I'll test it out and post results in the Force Feedback Stutter thread.

I looked in the "startup" and could not find this parameter. Do we add it manually?

Also the description mentioned TrackIR in this too. Different parameter or is it related to FFB settings somehow?

[Urra]

Does anyone know why I'm getting "outdated data - 198sec messages constantly, etc in my missions now???  Its only after this update....

[E_Davjack]

7 minutes ago, SShrike said:

I looked in the "startup" and could not find this parameter. Do we add it manually?

Also the description mentioned TrackIR in this too. Different parameter or is it related to FFB settings somehow?

 

Yes, you ad the parameter manually to the startup.cfg file under the TrackIR field. 

 

See this thread: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/34040-force-feedback-induced-camera-movement-stutter/

 

TIR does not have anything to do with the FFB stutter.  TIR is when you notice it the most, but it exists for all FFB users, whether they use the mouse or TIR to look around,

 

[SShrike]

Just now, II./JG1_EmerlistDavjack said:

 

Yes, you ad the parameter manually to the startup.cfg file under the TrackIR field. 

 

See this thread: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/34040-force-feedback-induced-camera-movement-stutter/

 

TIR does not have anything to do with the FFB stutter.  TIR is when you notice it the most, but it exists for all FFB users, whether they use the mouse or TIR to look around,

 

Thank you for the reply and clarification. I am still not seeing the TrackIR field in my file.

[KEY = account]
      login = ""
      password = ""
[END]
[KEY = camera]
      cinematic = 0
      head_smooth = 0.50000
      hmd_restricted = 0
      shake = 1
[END]
[KEY = force_feedback]
      amplitude = 1.00000
      enabled = 1
      force = 1.00000
[END]
[KEY = graphics]
      3dhud = 0
      adapter = 0
      bloom_enable = 0
      desktop_center = 1
      detail_rt_res = 1024
      draw_distance = 1.00000
      fps_counter = 1
      fps_limit = 0
      full_height = 1080
      full_width = 1920
      fullscreen = 1
      gamma = 1.00000
      grass_distance = 100.00000
      hdr_enable = 0
      land_anisotropy = 1
      land_tex_lods = 3
      max_cache_res = 0
      max_clouds_quality = 2
      mgpu_compatible = 0
      mirrors = 3
      multisampling = 2
      or_enable = 0
      post_sharpen = 1
      preset = 3
      rescale_target = 1.00000
      shadows_quality = 4
      ssao_enable = 0
      vsync = 0
      win_height = 1080
      win_width = 1920
[END]
[KEY = input]
      exclusive = 1
      input_map = "input.map"
      mouse_plane_control = 0
      old_trackir = 0
[END]
[KEY = interface]
      forces_color_mode = 2
      language = "eng"
      log = "_gui.log"
      scale = 1.00000
      showcompas = 1
      showicons = 1
      units = ""
      withdebug = 0
[END]
[KEY = iservice]
      proxy_name = "alpha.il2sturmovik.net:443"
      register_url = ""
      server_debug = ""
      try_ping = 0
      try_web_port = 1
      use_proxy = 1
[END]
[KEY = network]
      available_ip = "[object Object]"
      client_download_traflimit = 10240
      client_ip = ""
      client_upload_traflimit = 10240
      downloader_port = 28100
      server_download_traflimit = 1000
      server_upload_traflimit = 1000
      tcp_port = 28000
      udp_port = 28000
[END]
[KEY = sound]
      count = 32
      debug_radio = 0
      interface = 1
      interface_music = 0
      quality = 2
      speedenable = true
      volume = 1.00000
[END]
[KEY = system]
      bin_log_folder = ""
      chatlog = 0
      debug_info = 0
      debug_render = 0
      dlgbox_sky = 0
      gamelog = 0
      keep_binary_log = 0
      mgenlog = 0
      mission_text_log = 0
      modes = 0
      playoffline = 0
      reset_configs = 0
      show_net_skins = 1
      skin_dir = "graphics\Skins\"
[END]
[KEY = track_record]
      fx_sound = 2
      record_graphics_effect = 1
      record_ground_vehicles = 1
      tacviewrecord = 0
[END]
[KEY = updater]
      enable_udp = 0
      language = "eng"
      locales = "rus,eng,ger,spa,fra,pol"
      p2p_port = 6881
      seed = 0
      web_distribution = 0
[END]

 

 

16 hours ago, Geronimo553 said:

Happy to see the very much needed and long awaited damage model overhaul. The game has vastly been improved so thank you for that change! Though I would like to critique the high explosive damage is a touch underperforming at current. So I hope to see some tweaks to that in the near future.  Also looking forward to the very thorough damage testing videos that will soon release. ^_^

 

For those who have been suffering from the force feedback stutter bug for years. (like me) This is an unbelievably amazing update! Very glad to see this placed into the game. It was a real game ruiner running at 80 fps and unfixable lag when looking around, making combat impossible.

Maybe I lucked out, but my thrustmaster 16000m target software no longer works since the update. I can use my controls without the software running in game. But when the software is turned on the game does not register any input.   If I cannot get it working I will make a thread. 

Have a look at this. maybe you have duplicated lines.

 

[306_Eugenio]

I see that the old tradition remembered from old Il2 online fronts such as Bellum War is still alive. Some of our colleagues would like to have guns that are simply 100% sure one shot enemy removal feature. I think that life was more complicated than that. There are records of planes downed with single 0,303 bullet and some of others back to base despite soaking some high caliber guns. There must be some dose of uncertainty.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

43 minutes ago, 306_Eugenio said:

I see that the old tradition remembered from old Il2 online fronts such as Bellum War is still alive. Some of our colleagues would like to have guns that are simply 100% sure one shot enemy removal feature. I think that life was more complicated than that. There are records of planes downed with single 0,303 bullet and some of others back to base despite soaking some high caliber guns. There must be some dose of uncertainty.

Thats right. Thing is - are both those possibilities still possible with the current DM? Is it possible to down a P40 or a Spit with a short burst of 7mm, as Marseille did quite frequently?

[SCG_klobuk]

Hi guys,

I like this update and that the developers constantly working on improving this sim. However I have to say that flight model/characteristics/physics have to be adjusted somehow for aircraft with damaged wings. I'm perfectly OK with the fact that wings will not fall off after one 20mm hit like before, but I think that high G maneuvers for aircraft with really damaged wings should not be possible. I won't post a video here unless I have to. I had yesterday a situation on berloga against la-5, multiple 13mm hits to both wings (dmg was clearly visible next to wing roots), after that another 30mm hit to right wing followed by another 30mm hit to wing or tail... He was still performing high G maneuvers and dogfighting with me... I don't think that this is somehow close to simulation... But maybe I'm wrong. Thanks for any replies and answers.

[150GCT_Veltro]

Good update but i agree about MK108/30, really it need some more love.

[AlphaHasen]

https://imgur.com/gallery/HkGqW?fbclid=IwAR1Mg6HrKlPdBz-hlx3V_2fvw9o3KIsopNRnBWzc3d9mZT4ZUD8pvffxRm8

 

A series of British 1945 tests assessing the lethality of the German 3cm cannon shells against aircraft.

Edited December 7, 2018 by JG4_RuckZuck

[CountZero]

3 hours ago, TunaEatsLion said:

Does anyone know why I'm getting "outdated data - 198sec messages constantly, etc in my missions now???  Its only after this update....

Try to make copy of your mission and reduce some units from it and see if delays go down, also check this:

 

[Ouky1991]

2 minutes ago, JG4_RuckZuck said:

A series of British 1945 tests assessing the lethality of the German 3cm cannon shells against aircraft.

https://imgur.com/gallery/HkGqW?fbclid=IwAR1Mg6HrKlPdBz-hlx3V_2fvw9o3KIsopNRnBWzc3d9mZT4ZUD8pvffxRm8

 

Devs need to see this. 

 

I've tested couple planes and it's just ridiculous. It takes more then 4 bursts with Mk 108 to take wings off of all yaks and lagg, it's better against Spits - about 3 bursts.

 

When flying Spit Mk.ix it takes about 3 burst to dewing g-6. 

 

I'm not having problems getting kills, it seems more or less same if you go after engine. 

 

Can Devs clarify if the Mk 108 on Bf 109 k-4 works as intended? Or is it a bug? 

[SCG_klobuk]

14 minutes ago, JG4_RuckZuck said:

https://imgur.com/gallery/HkGqW?fbclid=IwAR1Mg6HrKlPdBz-hlx3V_2fvw9o3KIsopNRnBWzc3d9mZT4ZUD8pvffxRm8

 

A series of British 1945 tests assessing the lethality of the German 3cm cannon shells against aircraft.

WOW, didn't know that 30s were so destructive... Thanks for the link!

[150GCT_Veltro]

If you try 30mm versus A-20 they seem to be credible. I think that the big problem is still in some VVS DM drastically overmodelled like La5 but for sure, actually 30mm are not credible at all. The devastating effect of 30mm HE is totally missed.

 

I only hope this one is not just an update in Oleg's style, "You kid, you got it".

 

30mm need an hotfix.

Edited December 7, 2018 by 150GCT_Veltro

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

48 minutes ago, 150GCT_Veltro said:

Good update but i agree about MK108/30, really it need some more love.

 

Agree, 30mm is the only thing that stands right out to be very underwhelming

[HandyNasty]

1 hour ago, klobuk said:

Hi guys,

I like this update and that the developers constantly working on improving this sim. However I have to say that flight model/characteristics/physics have to be adjusted somehow for aircraft with damaged wings. I'm perfectly OK with the fact that wings will not fall off after one 20mm hit like before, but I think that high G maneuvers for aircraft with really damaged wings should not be possible. I won't post a video here unless I have to. I had yesterday a situation on berloga against la-5, multiple 13mm hits to both wings (dmg was clearly visible next to wing roots), after that another 30mm hit to right wing followed by another 30mm hit to wing or tail... He was still performing high G maneuvers and dogfighting with me... I don't think that this is somehow close to simulation... But maybe I'm wrong. Thanks for any replies and answers.

1) I agree that it's good that wings don't fall off so easily

2) yesterday I had exactly the same situation with a 109 whose wings looked more like swiss cheese that actaul wings
 

Edited December 7, 2018 by =FSB=HandyNasty
somehow submitted without any text ... and reedit for typos

[AlphaHasen]

But you should not forget that the 30mm was developed for attack planes and bombers. In the dogfight she had too many disadvantages. German pilots liked the 20mm much better in the dogfight.

[216th_Jordan]

14 hours ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

 

 

It's really telling that everybody complaining here just mentions German 30mm. What about the M4 37mm that was said to be able to down bombers in 1 hit? 

 

High caliber guns in this game are devastating, but it seems generally not as much as in reality, they are far from worthless though. 3 hits of 30mm will let 80% of the planes not reach their bases.

[[110]xJammer]

With a few more hours in the game I really enjoy the new DM, but I feel the aerodynamic effects of damage are too benign. 

 

Damage to the wing increases the drag and reduces the lift. The lift is modelled as you need to use aileron to correct for it, but I do not feel the drag is there.

The lift coefficient of the damaged wing (CL) changes with the angle of attack, so pulling a combat manoeuvre will aggravate the results of damage even more so

https://dspace.lboro.ac.uk/dspace-jspui/bitstream/2134/18186/1/AIAA 2015 Almond Render Walker.pdf

 

 

As a result, pulling up with a damaged wing will first cause that wing to slow down due to increased drag (yawing into the wing). Secondly it will asymmetrically decrease the lift that the wing produces (more aileron input required) the lift decrease is both due to slow down and due to CL dropping. Combined it is a recipe for a violent stall. Right now even with severe wing damage keeping the aircraft at a stall is quite trivial.

 

In short I would have expected more uncontrolled violent spins from damaged aircraft that are riding the stall. Especially if they are performing a tight turn. Right now if the damage is taken to a wing we get a mediocre wing drop that is easily corrected and no yaw effect at all.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, JG4_RuckZuck said:

But you should not forget that the 30mm was developed for attack planes and bombers. In the dogfight she had too many disadvantages. German pilots liked the 20mm much better in the dogfight.

 

30mm is terrible against fighters because it is difficult to hit with what is basically an air-to-air grenade launcher. And your ammo is limited. But if you hit it should deal a catastrophic amount of damage. Right now it feels extremely underwhelming even if you manage to deal with all of the inherent drawbacks of using it against fighters.

 

 

1 hour ago, 216th_Jordan said:

 

It's really telling that everybody complaining here just mentions German 30mm. What about the M4 37mm that was said to be able to down bombers in 1 hit? 

 

High caliber guns in this game are devastating, but it seems generally not as much as in reality, they are far from worthless though. 3 hits of 30mm will let 80% of the planes not reach their bases.

 

Would you have a source for the 80% number by any chance  ?  P-39 is hardly as popular as some of the 30mm carriers out there so I'm not surprised people are more focused on the 30mm.

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by xJammer

[JG27*Kornezov]

With the 30 mm you have to be a like a sniper, you have 60. So a very, very short burst, not spray and prey type of firing. For that reason the weapon was designed to be lethal even if 1 bullet hits the target. That is exactly what the videos shows (and we should keep attaching this until it is fixed .
https://imgur.com/gallery/HkGqW?fbclid=IwAR1Mg6HrKlPdBz-hlx3V_2fvw9o3KIsopNRnBWzc3d9mZT4ZUD8pvffxRm8

 

By the way unless the developers use finite element method to simulate different types of damages, every result would not be called: simulation per se. That can be used also as a marketing tool.

 

 

[AlphaHasen]

39 minutes ago, 216th_Jordan said:

 

It's really telling that everybody complaining here just mentions German 30mm. What about the M4 37mm that was said to be able to down bombers in 1 hit? 

 

High caliber guns in this game are devastating, but it seems generally not as much as in reality, they are far from worthless though. 3 hits of 30mm will let 80% of the planes not reach their bases.

 

Everything in 30 mm direction is devastating. No matter on which side it was used.

 

34 minutes ago, JG27_Kornezov said:

With the 30 mm you have to be a like a sniper, you have 60. So a very, very short burst, not spray and prey type of firing. For that reason the weapon was designed to be lethal even if 1 bullet hits the target. That is exactly what the videos shows (and we should keep attaching this until it is fixed .
https://imgur.com/gallery/HkGqW?fbclid=IwAR1Mg6HrKlPdBz-hlx3V_2fvw9o3KIsopNRnBWzc3d9mZT4ZUD8pvffxRm8

 

By the way unless the developers use finite element method to simulate different types of damages, every result would not be called: simulation per se. That can be used also as a marketing tool.

 

 

 

correctly, the 30 mm need a big target.

Edited December 7, 2018 by JG4_RuckZuck

[CountZero]

Just now, 216th_Jordan said:

 

It's really telling that everybody complaining here just mentions German 30mm. What about the M4 37mm that was said to be able to down bombers in 1 hit? 

 

High caliber guns in this game are devastating, but it seems generally not as much as in reality, they are far from worthless though. 3 hits of 30mm will let 80% of the planes not reach their bases.

 

On russian forum there was posted video of lagg3 with 37mm hiting 109, it took 3x37mm hits to shoot him down, not many found that wrong or interesting as this 30mm problem 

 

[216th_Jordan]

5 minutes ago, xJammer said:

Would you have a source for the 80% number by any chance  ?  P-39 is hardly as popular as some of the 30mm carriers out there so I'm not surprised people are more focused on the 30mm.

 

 

 

 

From my own observations in QMB and online. TBH I find the 30mm to perform closer to expected than the 20mm. Neither is a deal breaker however.

 

And I agree with regards to airfoil damage, wings should produce more drag and less lift when hit.

[150GCT_Veltro]

20 minutes ago, JG4_RuckZuck said:

But you should not forget that the 30mm was developed for attack planes and bombers. In the dogfight she had too many disadvantages. German pilots liked the 20mm much better in the dogfight.

 

That's why we would like have (asap) a G10 DLC but 30mm were intended to destroy flying fortress like B-17 and B-24, so really i dont't get the point of people complaining about the wing ripped (P-47 inlcuded) by a shoot of MK108. The release of this update in a so short time, does seem to be really a sort of answer to these complaints, and nothing more, at least for the 30mm.

 

People say that's realitisc now.........?...because wings are no more ripped?! La-5 seems to be more strong than a B-17.....and nothing should have to be shocking if a Spitfire is disintegrated by a burst of 30mm, and not simple shoot down.

 

37mm? Who care if one only shoot destroy a 109, it's fine but really these 30mm are totally unrealistic.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by 150GCT_Veltro

[[110]xJammer]

1 minute ago, 216th_Jordan said:

 

From my own observations in QMB and online. TBH I find the 30mm to perform closer to expected than the 20mm. Neither is a deal breaker however.

 

And I agree with regards to airfoil damage, wings should produce more drag and less lift when hit.

 

 

Video it! And do best not to cherry pick will convince a lot more players too  

 

One thing to bear in mind that the aerofoil damage in the work I linked has dynamic lift depending on the angle of attack. So it is not just reduction in lift, but a stronger reduction in lift closer to the stall causing the wing drop.

[SYN_Haashashin]

Hi all,

 

Jason said already but I will repeat it. Test discussions somewhere else. I will start deleting such posts.

 

 

Haash

[150GCT_Veltro]

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/32221-109-guns/?page=5

[Ouky1991]

1 hour ago, SYN_Haashashin said:

Hi all,

 

Jason said already but I will repeat it. Test discussions somewhere else. I will start deleting such posts.

 

 

Haash

 

Hi. Can you please confirm that Mk 108 works as intended? Or can you pass this question to devs? Some official word on this would be nice so we know that there's no need to report it as bug. 

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

8 hours ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

 

- the fact that the spit9 never overheats

 

Don't know why you expect that when running at +25lbs, the cooling system was adequate for Tropical summer conditions

[Jade_Monkey]

8 hours ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

Dear developers, as a faithful customer I'm really disappointed. I had expected that you fix e.g.

- the overheat issue in the FW-190 A8

- the fact that the spit9 never overheats

- the missing gyroscopic forces in the spit9.

- game stability issues

 

Instead, we get new bugs, like the massively nerfed MK-108 30 mm.

 

My impression of a low quality, sub-par product grows stronger every week.

 

Wow that's some serious picking and choosing there. They fixed and added a long list of other items that you intentionally left out to make your point. 

 

Your last sentence is just hilarious.

[Kalthios]

7 hours ago, SShrike said:

I looked in the "startup" and could not find this parameter. Do we add it manually?

Also the description mentioned TrackIR in this too. Different parameter or is it related to FFB settings somehow?

Yes add it yourself and it will be read when the game starts. 

[wonders9]

On 12/6/2018 at 2:23 AM, Voidhunger said:

Look at the well known video of Me163 attacking B17. min. 3 hits with Mk108 .damaged/desteoyed inner ingine, dorsal turret and elevator.  And B17 landed at home airfield.

 

Could you please give us a link to the video you mentioned? I searched YouTube but couldn't find it.

[Voidhunger]

6 minutes ago, wonders9 said:

 

Could you please give us a link to the video you mentioned? I searched YouTube but couldn't find it.

Im not at home now. Its almost in every youtube video about Me163. Or search my  older posts. There is even a  picture of this damaged B17.

 

maybe its the only true video with Mk108 in action

Edited December 7, 2018 by Voidhunger