Tempest

[HR_Zunzun]

23 minutes ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

I'm not so sure about this... I guess the bombs would have a good bit of drag, enough for a 1.98 ata K-4 (which does 619 km/h on the deck in game) to get it.

What are the speed values of the Tempest at +11 at sea level? around 630 km/h?

 

It would be somehow tricky for the K4 anyway unless intercepting the Tempest before releasing its bombs or with a good amount of height advantage. The Tempest has a very high-speed cruise  (quite near wep speed) that last for 1 hour. In a flat-out pursuit, the k4 would have to make good use of the extra 5 minutes of wep (no small help) or lose its prey (in combat mode the K4 is much slower than the tempest).

[Panthera]

1 hour ago, HR_Zunzun said:

 

It would be somehow tricky for the K4 anyway unless intercepting the Tempest before releasing its bombs or with a good amount of height advantage. The Tempest has a very high-speed cruise  (quite near wep speed) that last for 1 hour. In a flat-out pursuit, the k4 would have to make good use of the extra 5 minutes of wep (no small help) or lose its prey (in combat mode the K4 is much slower than the tempest).

 

Yes, and I have a feeling that a lightly fueled Tempest ingame will do more than 630 km/h. I think it's going to be real effective.

 

The 4x Hispanos will also be devastating armament to quickly take out an unaware target.

[MiloMorai]

1 hour ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

I'm not so sure about this... I guess the bombs would have a good bit of drag, enough for a 1.98 ata K-4 (which does 619 km/h on the deck in game) to get it.

What are the speed values of the Tempest at +11 at sea level? around 630 km/h?

 

The Tempest didn't carry bombs. Not sure if it was 11lb or 13lb but the fuel was 150 and W/C Beamont said he saw 415mph on the ASI at 500ft. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

41 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

 

The Tempest didn't carry bombs. Not sure if it was 11lb or 13lb but the fuel was 150 and W/C Beamont said he saw 415mph on the ASI at 500ft. 

 

They did, but rarely and typically towards the end of March and into April.

[unreasonable]

5 hours ago, Diggun said:

Hmmm... This presents a cataloguing problem

 And I so love them...

?

 

Glad you enjoyed it and agreed with my assessment. It is good to know that we share some tastes; but you are welcome to Miss Dolphin.

 

As Descartes says, CanadaOne's book thread is not about aviation, he enjoys philosophical and literary works, so you get a different kind of debate.  Socrates had it coming! 

 

I think there was a compendium of aviation relevant books started once, but as is usually the way with forums it has got lost. A forum works so much better as a conversation/debate than as a reference library.

Edited December 13, 2018 by unreasonable

[EAF19_Marsh]

5 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

They did, but rarely and typically towards the end of March and into April.

 

Am sure it will be capable of carrying give we do not have a Tiffie

[busdriver]

On 11/26/2018 at 1:13 AM, unreasonable said:

 

Thanks for the steer towards this book [Spurdle's "The Blue Arena"]. Just finished. Wow. This may  be the best single account of a fighter pilot in WW2 I have read. Why?

 

1) Five operational tours, starting at the tail end of the BoB, two Spitfire tours with very different tasks, rocket lauched Hurricanes,  a tour in Guadalcanal with the RNZAF in Kittihawks, then ending in Tempests in NW Europe - rounding off with a spell as a ground controller during the invasion of Germany. It was not only the Germans who fought until they dropped. 

2) Devoid of the usual self censorship about sex, drunkenness and looting - if you want to know how young men in the military actually behave, as opposed to what they say when they write to their mums, or the propagandists tell the journalists, it is all here (probably not all actually..... ).

3) As a typical uncouth colonial he tends to speak his mind: he may not always be right in his judgments, although I cannot find much with which to argue, but you know exactly where he stands.

4) Morale in air war - almost completely absent from our SP game, in which every bot is a hero, but he makes it quite clear that not only individuals, but sometimes whole units, would chicken out at crucial moments. (Especially you know who....)    

 

Sheddan's "Tempest Pilot" was mediocre at best. I lost track of how many times he wrote something to the effect, "we drank more than we should have." I believe that phrase appeared many more times than narratives of any combat sorties. Seemed like his wartime mission was getting drunk and getting laid...and maybe a little bit of flying. This book was underwhelming. I'm happy to send it to anyone that would like to read it.

 

I read Spurdle's book immediately after reading Sheddan's. Spurdle's book kept me interested. I have no problem with his contempt and hatred for americans. I think the editors were the only thing holding him back from writing "f*cking USAAF tossers." I checked his narrative for the dates he claimed squadron mates were lost with a series of books about Fighter Command losses. He was pretty accurate, within a day of two. A couple of episodes were off by over a month compared to Norman Franks' three volume Fighter Command Losses reference.  His description of the episode where an entire Eagle squadron was lost mere days before being transferred to the USAAF was damning. But I think his hatred toward americans colored his description, omitting fairly well known (after the fact) mitigating factors (winds forecast to be out of the west when in fact they were out of the north stronger than forecast, and flying above an undercast, missed rendezvous, some other admin stuff). He took a swipe at B-17s for not hauling as heavy loads as RAF four engine bombers. He expressed justified anger for having been fired upon by f*cking USAAF tossers that mis-identified his Tempest, but he made it sound like only USAAF guys ever screwed this up. Bottom line, Spurdle comes across like a typically flawed human being with lots and lots of anger/hatred/loathing. Spurdle gets my vote for the guy most likely to have suffered from PTSD, beat his wife, and probably set the neighbor's cat on fire. May he rest in peace (sincerely).

 

On the other hand Closterman's is less intense, but extremely interesting to read. I had read this a very long time ago, but have a new edition. At one point Closterman mentions getting jumped by Spitfires over France, but he doesn't write with anger like Spurdle.

 

I got distracted whilst reading Closterman (cross referencing Fighter Command losses with events Closterman writes about as I did with Sheddan and Spurdle). I started noting FC Mosquito losses popping up in Franks', and started checking against Bomber Command operations. During this interruption I read Martin Middlebrook & Chris Everitt's 790 page tome, "The Bomber Command War Diaries: An operational reference book 1939-1945." This sequeued into one of Martin W Bowman's latest and yet horribly edited "Nachtjagd Defenders of the Reich 1940-1943." 

 

Life is short and I've got more books to read.

[EAF19_Marsh]

14 minutes ago, busdriver said:

On the other hand Closterman's is less intense, but extremely interesting to read. I had read this a very long time ago, but have a new edition. At one point Closterman mentions getting jumped by Spitfires over France, but he doesn't write with anger like Spurdle.

 

He has something of of an anti-American axe to grind, too. Getting fired at by US fighters over Normandy, threatening to shoot at B-17s when the drop long and hit French houses. Also, many of his accounts have been shown to be something of a myth when compared with other sources. He was also suffering from what seems like supreme depression by early '45 and really should not have been allowed back on fighter operations. Beaumont publicly called him out on the 'Tempest was a monster' refrain he had, saying it was total bollocks. Sheddan manages to remain more optimistic by comparison. If you read the Mouchette Diaries you might wonder if the whole experience was so much more depressing for the French contingent

 

I loved his book first time. When I discovered he became very friendly with Rudel after the war (wrote the fwd of the latter's French translation) I became increasingly less enamored of Pierre.

Edited December 13, 2018 by EAF19_Marsh

[busdriver]

4 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

He has something of of an anti-American axe to grind, too. 

 

I loved his book first time. When I discovered he became very friendly with Rudel after the war (wrote the fwd of the latter's French translation) I became increasingly less enamored of Pierre.

 

I have to finish the book (again). Trying to rehabilitate Rudel's image or simply "tone deaf?" I would be at a loss to explain that. Thanks for that tidbit. It's almost 0330 here...time for bed.

[ZachariasX]

12 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

I loved his book first time. When I discovered he became very friendly with Rudel after the war (wrote the fwd of the latter's French translation) I became increasingly less enamored of Pierre.

 

12 hours ago, busdriver said:

I have to finish the book (again). Trying to rehabilitate Rudel's image or simply "tone deaf?" I would be at a loss to explain that. Thanks for that tidbit. It's almost 0330 here...time for bed. 

 

I think Pierre is a more difficult personality. There's several sides to him. One side, he openly loved the British, yet on the same time he could side with Argentinia over the Falklands. He loved the US, he studied there, he was a member of the board for Cessna, priding himself to cross the Atlantiv more than 300 times after the war, yet i he very vocal in his frustrations about them. He felt deep bitterness about what the Nazis did to France (and their further war crimes), yet he had a significant affection for their poster boy soldiers.

 

It becomes more evident when you read through his other interviews, like "Une Sacrée Guerre" and I don't think it is out of having "an axe to grind".

 

First of all, I think Pierre was a very emotional character, prone to PTSD in a higher degree than many of his squad mates. He was short, but an extremely fit and ambitious individual. He was a very good pilot (compared to worlds average at the time) even before he got in the RAF and he was a very fit swimmer. He had remarkable teachers making him just that, like that old German hand teaching him in the Jungmeister back in Brazil. The gym teacher that made a very good swimmer out of him. Plus he had a father figure that was "famous", "important", and "a hero in the Great War", all of with raised the bar very high to live up to those imagined standards. In fact, he hardly ever saw his dad and most he got from him were letters that could well have been dispatches. Being a rather sensible creature with the downside of having a way above average education made it straightforward for him to seek company with no one but the most successful. In this, he is quiet clear of what "is the best", be it personal or aircraft and he fails to realize that he most likely took those decisions as much by sentiment as by logic.

 

He is still not as split of a character as Hanna Reitsch, the textbook case of a torn soul adoring war criminals that is failing to come to terms. Very much the condensed moral problem of her generation.

 

How much Pierre is driven by sentiment, you can see by his explanation to side with Argetinia in the Falklands war, an episode with a girl when he (he is also Brazilian national!) was on his way to England and had some time to kill and went on the ferry from Montevideo to Benos Aires and went in the club Tabaris:

 

Quand j'arrive, toutes les tables étant prises on m'installe dans une loge, où d'habitude des messieurs d'un âge certain rencontrent des demoiselles d'un âge incertain. Le maître d'hôtel m'a prévenu : « Ici on ne boit que de la cidra. » C'est le champagne local, je ne vous le conseille pas, d'ailleurs c'est mauvais et très cher. Après avoir recompté mon argent, je me suis dit : au diable l'avarice, la guerre ce n'est pas tous les jours, donc à nous la grande vie. Cinq minutes après arrivait une donzelle charmante, une émigrée russe très blonde et trop jeune. Elle a tout de suite vu qu'elle avait affaire à un gamin… Nous avons dansé toute la nuit, et c'était de plus en plus triste. Je serais bien resté, mais je devais rentrer, désolé, je devais attraper le ferry de quatre heures du matin. Elle n'a pas voulu que je paye mes danses, me disant : « Je fais ça pour les Alliés ! Bonne chance », et elle m'a embrassé. Nous nous sommes enlacés pour « bailar un ultimo tango rente »… Et le lendemain, je prenais le bateau pour l'Europe. Depuis ce soir-là, l'Argentine a son petit coin privilégié dans mes souvenirs… El Choclo, la Cumparsita, un solo déchirant de bandonéon, me serrent toujours le cœur… Un jour de juin 1982, quand le monde entier, comme toujours sous la pression des Anglo-Saxons, criait haro sur l'Argentine, j'ai voulu publiquement payer ma dette en rétablissant la vérité sur les Malouines – les Malvinas – rendant hommage à l'extraordinaire courage de ces derniers romantiques, les aviateurs argentins. Cela m'a valu bien des injures, mais c'est une histoire que je raconterai plus tard.

Clostermann, Pierre. Une sacrée guerre: Daniel Costelle questionne et enregistre les réponses de l'auteur sur sa vie, sa guerre et ses aventures 1921-1945 (Fiction francaise) (French Edition) (Kindle-Positionen978-991). Flammarion. Kindle-Version.

 

A Brazilian with such a crush for Argentina is quiet something. He's not as logic as he likes to be. It's his emotions that carry him away, telling stories (that we rabidly have to edit in the fora for correctness sake) and also that get the best of him with depression and PTSD. Depression with the situation after the loss of Muchotte with the Free French, PTSD during summer 1944 when his nerves really started giving up. It takes little for him to unconditionally like something, it just has to conform his taste. And his taste is very much like Hemingway’s. There's plenty room for heroic individuals in his heart.

Whether or not he should have been let flying again with the Tempests is answered with his performance, and he did notably well there, although constantly still down on his nerves. Then again, most were.

 

Being who he was, I think he didn't commit some sort of treason on Britain when siding with Argentinia over the Falklands/Malvinas, he just remained the stubborn and emotional character he always was. He himself certainly didn't feel like betraying the British over that topic. He just loved to others too. Especially since he was involved in getting them up to speed in the Mirage fighters. There was a personal bonding as well.

 

The “not liking the Americans”, I doubt this can be taken at face value, but they indeed pushed all buttons to anger him. First of all, they were easily as self-confident as he was, plus they didn't recognize the heroic aspect of a battle, just because of their prevalent attitude to let everybody know that "everything American is always better and the rest is turd anyway". Winning the war like that didn't put a muffler on them as it did on the British, as those took a far heavier beating and what was left of them most often didn't sound like the old boys that always did things the proper English way. He got his fair share of fratricide by American AAA (and was probably in a majority of getting his that way) and he took it rather personal. It took him out of action a couple of days, getting all the Bofors shrapnel out of his leg.

 

In this sense, I don't see him unduly angry at Americans. Or not more so than any other Frenchie that gets thrown in a ditch by an American without a proper "excusez-moi!"

 

His affection for Germans like Rudel (he was not alone with that: Stanford Tuck, Peter Townsend and others come to mind), I could only explain with his romantic image of Hemingway’s heroes. Fight alone for a noble cause, die alone if it has to be. Now the bell hadn't told for Rudel and neither for Galland. Both being rather good sports when conversing about anything flying, it is easy to sympathize with such characters and glossing over their darker sides. Also Goering was a remarkably good person to converse with, as long as it was all things flying. Even Eric Brown had to admit that.

 

This way of being romantic probably motivated his positive image of General Leclerc, who was an achiever indeed. Pierre didn't like him being called "baderne militaire" ("military twit"), even though Leclerc was a difficult character for most.

 

- Le maréchal Leclerc était-il vraiment une baderne militaire ?

 

- Non, non, il ne faut jamais dire ça. Mais il était à cheval sur le protocole. Il faut dire qu'avec les Free French, ce n'était pas facile.

Clostermann, Pierre. Une sacrée guerre: Daniel Costelle questionne et enregistre les réponses de l'auteur sur sa vie, sa guerre et ses aventures 1921-1945 (Fiction francaise) (French Edition) (Kindle-Positionen2319-2322). Flammarion. Kindle-Version.

 

Leclerc took a dump on Pierre and his friend Jaques, when the by chance met in a pub near Scapa (AFAIR), and Jaques thought it was fancy to wear a flower in his uniform buttonhole. Leclerc obviously thought this was improper a good Frenchman in Uniform, yelled at him and suggested Jaques better wear flowers up his a**, if he thought of himself as a flower personality.

 

Pierre was also required for a de-escalation meeting with Hemingway about Leclerc. While planning the liberation of Paris, Hemingway had stormed into Leclerc’s planning room, wielding his big caliber revolver like a cowboy and demanding assistance to liberate the bar of the Ritz hotel first, just as a matter of common sense and utter importance. Leclerc had him kicked out, cursing him, like few people have ever been kicked of a room. As an act of mutual kindness, in Hemingway returned the favor in his writing "Across the River And Into The Trees":

« Général Leclerc, that jerk of the third order whose death I celebrated drinking a magnum of Perrier et Jouet. »

At the request of the Editor for the French edition, it took Pierre lots of drinking at the Ritz (of course) and long talks for Hemingway to that edit that passage in a more French-friendly way.

 

 

In the end, Pierre liked discipline and the sense of greatness that it can transcend together with "order". There is definitely a slight crush on authority in his feelings. Being French, the alternative would have been chaos and strike rather than personal freedom and creativity. The "following orders" excuse fits there well, especially as it reinforces your dedication to higher cause. He very much regretted that it had to come to a war and in this sense trying to bond with German pilots was probably also a way of getting to terms finally.

 

Also, one should not forget, Pierre is a great storyteller, not an interrogator. It makes you friends with different kinds of people.

 

 

 

Besides my views on Pierre, I very much agree in the comments on Sheddans and Spurdles book. Sheddands book is a book that you can read if you read all other books. Spurdles work is much more interesting. Spurdle is a much simpler character and I'd say probably a more resilient one. Spurdle also had the great advantage of not having to preserve his family’s honor by being a hero in a battle, flying and fighting was good enough and he could preserve much of his nerves for the actual fight and looking at command in a very open minded and direct manner.

 

We should not forget, these are not people getting wasted by bullshit jobs. These are still more or less adolescent boys seeing people die over their own and other people’s mistakes. You don't take crap lightly when it gets you killed instead of getting your rent paid.

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by ZachariasX

[ShamrockOneFive]

6 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

Am sure it will be capable of carrying give we do not have a Tiffie

 

And probably the RP-3 rockets too. I'm ok with these as they are real loadouts and as you say, we don't have the Typhoon. I think my position would be different if we had both

[Talon_]

24 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

And probably the RP-3 rockets too. I'm ok with these as they are real loadouts and as you say, we don't have the Typhoon. I think my position would be different if we had both

 

Just to clarify, it was designed & cleared for RP-3s though didn't use them in combat.

[PatrickAWlson]

About accuracy in Clostermann's book: he wrote his stuff in the moment and not so much in hindsight.  IMHO that is what makes it such a great read.  However, I wouldn't use it as a history lesson.

[busdriver]

1 hour ago, PatrickAWlson said:

About accuracy in Clostermann's book: he wrote his stuff in the moment and not so much in hindsight.  IMHO that is what makes it such a great read.  However, I wouldn't use it as a history lesson.

 

That's for sure. His narrative reads like a great action movie or comic book. The episode I just re-read describes a mission to escort Hurricanes attacking a Noball site (21 Dec 43). He names the pilots and spectacular circumstances of three Hurricanes lost, as if reading the script for a Sam Peckinpah film (slow motion graphic deaths). Clostermann is highly readable and entertaining. I put Charles Demoulin's "Firebirds" way up there too, not for spectacular narrative, just the impression of the person.

 

ZachariasX, mon ami, thanks for your post. 

Edited December 13, 2018 by busdriver

[EAF19_Marsh]

Quote

That's for sure. His narrative reads like a great action movie or comic book. The episode I just re-read describes a mission to escort Hurricanes attacking a Noball site (21 Dec 43). He names the pilots and spectacular circumstances of three Hurricanes lost, as if reading the script for a Sam Peckinpah film (slow motion graphic deaths). Clostermann is highly readable and entertaining. I put Charles Demoulin's "Firebirds" way up there too, not for spectacular narrative, just the impression of the person.

 

The problem being - the more you examine this - how much is actually true? Many have written gripping novels of different aerial conflicts, but one might expect a participant either to a) edit what he wrote to ensure that it was at least closer to the reality of what occurred, or b) admit that his impressions might be somewhat off the mark.

 

@Zacharias, an extremely thoughtful post. I would compare the perspective of Clostermann to Mouchette in the sense that - comparative to Anglo-Saxon autobiographies - they are far less positive. I suggest that this is a mixture of different narrative styles but also the impact of having one's homeland overrun as well as the frustration that the French military 'allowed' [or were blamed for allowing] the country to fall and so the FFF have to carry the can with a sense of inferiority against the larger and 'undefeated' forces of the Commonwealth and US. Mouchette should have been pulled from operations as his diary suggests his mental state was deteriorating rapidly both from exhaustion and a sense of loss and grief that is arguably more toxic.

 

Clostermann - as you correctly suggest - was a highly-strung and contradictory character. Indeed, there is a sense of guilt and possibly even self-loathing that runs through the Grande Cirque because, as much as he does he cannot change the circumstances of his position, he does remain tied to and haunted by a sense of French defeat. As much as he enjoys the RAF and the chance to fight for the liberation of his country, the acknowledgement of the debt to the Commonwealth and US for making this possible is difficult mentally to synthesize.

 

On the Rudel point: well, de Gaulle had an air of the [dictatorial] general about him and Clostermann had fought to bring his country back so there was undoubtedly a lingering sympathy for other pilots who had fought for their country (though I am surprised that there was much sympathy given what the Wehrmacht did to France). Bader, Tuck and others ended up friends with Galland, but Rudel was a dyed-in-the-wool Nazi to the end of his days, so I find that association a little bit odd and unsettling.

 

Not judging Clostermann because that is impossible. But from my first reading of his book 20-somethign years ago I am a little more cynical of both the reality and the deeper psychology behind it.

 

Oh, and I enjoyed Sheddan's book as honest and simple. Not great literature, but worth reading.

 

 

[ZachariasX]

10 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

he does remain tied to and haunted by a sense of French defeat. As much as he enjoys the RAF and the chance to fight for the liberation of his country, the acknowledgement of the debt to the Commonwealth and US for making this possible is difficult mentally to synthesize.

I think you are making a very good point here.

 

I think Pierre is indeed a very torn character. Much more so than he would acknowledge himself. But that starts early on. He is born in Brazil and brought up as an upper class Brazilian boy in the 20's and 30's of the last century. The French attitude he mostly got by his mother and what I called "dispatches" sent by his father from Brazzaville. He grew up with France being much more an idea than his actual home. And that "France" consisted of a heroic father that was wounded in The Great War and now still being in a good position and at the service of his country.

 

What he on the other hand had around him was the South American society. That one was *very* conservative. No comparison to today. Asking out a girl just like that was a major undertaking involving her entire family. Very much not like on the Copacabana these days. Hence he was most certainly impressed by the Argentinian girl in that club. She was used to push the right buttons on men and a glimpse of honest sympathy and maybe a very tiny bit of what she can do left a lasting impression on this young lad.

 

FUN FACT: Pierre also travelled on the Rangitata to England, same as Spurdle two years earlier. Notable difference was that by 1942, Pierre was the only able bodied male passenger. Spurdle travelled with a couple of hundert colonials that used to pester any women daring to show herself on deck. Pierre was alone, still enjoying the whole hotel of a cruise ship all for himself, as well as the pool. As there was a gym teacher as well, he had private lessons for sports and swimming and was well entertained. A long dream cruise for him, not just a long vacation as for Spurdle.

 

I think the most traumatizing experience he had about his country was when he was a student at CalTech, sitting at the movie theater watching the news reel and watching his countrymen surrendering to the German soldiers. What he saw were clueless, disoriented young lads. It wasn't even something like a catastrophe, it was just unreal. He sank down in his chair in shame, thanking God that everyone at the CalTech thought he was Brazilian and didn't laugh at him. His professor was surprised to learn that he was in fact French (too), and after that he absolutely had to finish his courses at once, taking the final exam and go to England, as his father prompted him to do in a letter.

 

There you had this young lad, completely shattered with only one thing to look up to besides his father, and this was de Gaulle. Everything was about restoring the honor of his country. Even in his other book "Feu Du Ciel" (I liked that one VERY much as a kid), where he is telling these stories, again reality according to Clostermann, but be it. In this book he mentions two French flyers, Max Guedj and Colonel Pijeaud. Both put heavily in a context of a personal struggle with the ultimate sacrifice to restore the honor of France. Or at least his idea of it. Every story Hemingway condensed.

 

One thing that gave Pierre hope was when he first entered the RAF College, the place where Spurdle basically found lots of food, Pierre saw the drill, the order, how they all sat down orderly and had their lunch, then doing their training, all in uniform, everything in style. That immediately convinced him that Britain would never be beaten. Never. So we have this sense for order in a very de Gaulle manner that appealed to him right away.

 

With Rudel... it is very difficult to stomach for me as well. But you also have to see how much support that Nazi got in the Wehrmacht up to his dying day. And when he died, AFAIR they even had a couple of Starfighters making a pass for him which caused an outrage in the press. Same as the respect they maintained for Döniz. Eric Brown wrote of a most awkward situation, when long after the war suddenly Döniz was paying a visit to the unit that Eric Brown was teaching and Eric Brown found himself standing attention next to the German Pilots while Döniz was inspecting them.

 

One maybe should keep in mind that several things (besides authoritarian despotism) the Nazis advocated were not all that uncommon (and even today find more and more voices), so it is not all that black and white.

 

With Pierres personality is probably difficult to distance oneself to men that are so much larger than life like Rudel.

 

This also puts together a pattern that can well explain Pierres disdain for Staint-Exupéry. Not just writers envy, but St.Ex once said about aircombat, that is was more like a sport, a deadly game. This made Pierre furious that one could look at this in such a way.

 

[EAF19_Marsh]

Very interesting, Z, I shall reply in the morning when I have time.

[NZTyphoon]

On 11/15/2018 at 12:29 AM, EAF19_Marsh said:

I like the look of tanks on the Tempest. The RP issue is the frame drag after use, I’m not sure whether they could be ejected and they spoil the look of the wing.

Here are three pages from Christopher Shores' and Chris Thomas' 2nd Tactical Air Force: Volume Four describing the Tempest's operations: note that the drop tanks were hardly ever dropped (2nd paragraph, page 2), which helped reduce turn-around times between sorties, and because they had "little effect on performance" when carried. Also note that the drop tank pylons were made out of clear perspex.

Edited December 15, 2018 by NZTyphoon
Add photo of drop tanks

[laurentresende]

On 10/7/2018 at 2:42 AM, ShamrockOneFive said:

Ummm yes. Quietly right now because the other aircraft are also exciting but I am MOST excited about the Tempest Mark V. I was the aircraft I wanted them most for IL-2: 1946 (and created a 28 mission campaign for: http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=3687) and the one that I made into "my" mount when it came to online battles.

nice job !!bravo

On 10/7/2018 at 2:42 AM, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

I intend to do that again here for sure. I'm extremely excited about it.

 

[Bundook]

The Tempest and the Me 262 are the only things I bought the Bodenplatte game for.

[Bumfluff]

On 12/14/2018 at 12:47 AM, ZachariasX said:

 

 

I think Pierre is a more difficult personality. There's several sides to him. One side, he openly loved the British, yet on the same time he could side with Argentinia over the Falklands. He loved the US, he studied there, he was a member of the board for Cessna, priding himself to cross the Atlantiv more than 300 times after the war, yet i he very vocal in his frustrations about them. He felt deep bitterness about what the Nazis did to France (and their further war crimes), yet he had a significant affection for their poster boy soldiers.

 

It becomes more evident when you read through his other interviews, like "Une Sacrée Guerre" and I don't think it is out of having "an axe to grind".

 

First of all, I think Pierre was a very emotional character, prone to PTSD in a higher degree than many of his squad mates. He was short, but an extremely fit and ambitious individual. He was a very good pilot (compared to worlds average at the time) even before he got in the RAF and he was a very fit swimmer. He had remarkable teachers making him just that, like that old German hand teaching him in the Jungmeister back in Brazil. The gym teacher that made a very good swimmer out of him. Plus he had a father figure that was "famous", "important", and "a hero in the Great War", all of with raised the bar very high to live up to those imagined standards. In fact, he hardly ever saw his dad and most he got from him were letters that could well have been dispatches. Being a rather sensible creature with the downside of having a way above average education made it straightforward for him to seek company with no one but the most successful. In this, he is quiet clear of what "is the best", be it personal or aircraft and he fails to realize that he most likely took those decisions as much by sentiment as by logic.

 

He is still not as split of a character as Hanna Reitsch, the textbook case of a torn soul adoring war criminals that is failing to come to terms. Very much the condensed moral problem of her generation.

 

How much Pierre is driven by sentiment, you can see by his explanation to side with Argetinia in the Falklands war, an episode with a girl when he (he is also Brazilian national!) was on his way to England and had some time to kill and went on the ferry from Montevideo to Benos Aires and went in the club Tabaris:

 

Quand j'arrive, toutes les tables étant prises on m'installe dans une loge, où d'habitude des messieurs d'un âge certain rencontrent des demoiselles d'un âge incertain. Le maître d'hôtel m'a prévenu : « Ici on ne boit que de la cidra. » C'est le champagne local, je ne vous le conseille pas, d'ailleurs c'est mauvais et très cher. Après avoir recompté mon argent, je me suis dit : au diable l'avarice, la guerre ce n'est pas tous les jours, donc à nous la grande vie. Cinq minutes après arrivait une donzelle charmante, une émigrée russe très blonde et trop jeune. Elle a tout de suite vu qu'elle avait affaire à un gamin… Nous avons dansé toute la nuit, et c'était de plus en plus triste. Je serais bien resté, mais je devais rentrer, désolé, je devais attraper le ferry de quatre heures du matin. Elle n'a pas voulu que je paye mes danses, me disant : « Je fais ça pour les Alliés ! Bonne chance », et elle m'a embrassé. Nous nous sommes enlacés pour « bailar un ultimo tango rente »… Et le lendemain, je prenais le bateau pour l'Europe. Depuis ce soir-là, l'Argentine a son petit coin privilégié dans mes souvenirs… El Choclo, la Cumparsita, un solo déchirant de bandonéon, me serrent toujours le cœur… Un jour de juin 1982, quand le monde entier, comme toujours sous la pression des Anglo-Saxons, criait haro sur l'Argentine, j'ai voulu publiquement payer ma dette en rétablissant la vérité sur les Malouines – les Malvinas – rendant hommage à l'extraordinaire courage de ces derniers romantiques, les aviateurs argentins. Cela m'a valu bien des injures, mais c'est une histoire que je raconterai plus tard.

Clostermann, Pierre. Une sacrée guerre: Daniel Costelle questionne et enregistre les réponses de l'auteur sur sa vie, sa guerre et ses aventures 1921-1945 (Fiction francaise) (French Edition) (Kindle-Positionen978-991). Flammarion. Kindle-Version.

 

A Brazilian with such a crush for Argentina is quiet something. He's not as logic as he likes to be. It's his emotions that carry him away, telling stories (that we rabidly have to edit in the fora for correctness sake) and also that get the best of him with depression and PTSD. Depression with the situation after the loss of Muchotte with the Free French, PTSD during summer 1944 when his nerves really started giving up. It takes little for him to unconditionally like something, it just has to conform his taste. And his taste is very much like Hemingway’s. There's plenty room for heroic individuals in his heart.

Whether or not he should have been let flying again with the Tempests is answered with his performance, and he did notably well there, although constantly still down on his nerves. Then again, most were.

 

Being who he was, I think he didn't commit some sort of treason on Britain when siding with Argentinia over the Falklands/Malvinas, he just remained the stubborn and emotional character he always was. He himself certainly didn't feel like betraying the British over that topic. He just loved to others too. Especially since he was involved in getting them up to speed in the Mirage fighters. There was a personal bonding as well.

 

The “not liking the Americans”, I doubt this can be taken at face value, but they indeed pushed all buttons to anger him. First of all, they were easily as self-confident as he was, plus they didn't recognize the heroic aspect of a battle, just because of their prevalent attitude to let everybody know that "everything American is always better and the rest is turd anyway". Winning the war like that didn't put a muffler on them as it did on the British, as those took a far heavier beating and what was left of them most often didn't sound like the old boys that always did things the proper English way. He got his fair share of fratricide by American AAA (and was probably in a majority of getting his that way) and he took it rather personal. It took him out of action a couple of days, getting all the Bofors shrapnel out of his leg.

 

In this sense, I don't see him unduly angry at Americans. Or not more so than any other Frenchie that gets thrown in a ditch by an American without a proper "excusez-moi!"

 

His affection for Germans like Rudel (he was not alone with that: Stanford Tuck, Peter Townsend and others come to mind), I could only explain with his romantic image of Hemingway’s heroes. Fight alone for a noble cause, die alone if it has to be. Now the bell hadn't told for Rudel and neither for Galland. Both being rather good sports when conversing about anything flying, it is easy to sympathize with such characters and glossing over their darker sides. Also Goering was a remarkably good person to converse with, as long as it was all things flying. Even Eric Brown had to admit that.

 

This way of being romantic probably motivated his positive image of General Leclerc, who was an achiever indeed. Pierre didn't like him being called "baderne militaire" ("military twit"), even though Leclerc was a difficult character for most.

 

- Le maréchal Leclerc était-il vraiment une baderne militaire ?

 

- Non, non, il ne faut jamais dire ça. Mais il était à cheval sur le protocole. Il faut dire qu'avec les Free French, ce n'était pas facile.

Clostermann, Pierre. Une sacrée guerre: Daniel Costelle questionne et enregistre les réponses de l'auteur sur sa vie, sa guerre et ses aventures 1921-1945 (Fiction francaise) (French Edition) (Kindle-Positionen2319-2322). Flammarion. Kindle-Version.

 

Leclerc took a dump on Pierre and his friend Jaques, when the by chance met in a pub near Scapa (AFAIR), and Jaques thought it was fancy to wear a flower in his uniform buttonhole. Leclerc obviously thought this was improper a good Frenchman in Uniform, yelled at him and suggested Jaques better wear flowers up his a**, if he thought of himself as a flower personality.

 

Pierre was also required for a de-escalation meeting with Hemingway about Leclerc. While planning the liberation of Paris, Hemingway had stormed into Leclerc’s planning room, wielding his big caliber revolver like a cowboy and demanding assistance to liberate the bar of the Ritz hotel first, just as a matter of common sense and utter importance. Leclerc had him kicked out, cursing him, like few people have ever been kicked of a room. As an act of mutual kindness, in Hemingway returned the favor in his writing "Across the River And Into The Trees":

« Général Leclerc, that jerk of the third order whose death I celebrated drinking a magnum of Perrier et Jouet. »

At the request of the Editor for the French edition, it took Pierre lots of drinking at the Ritz (of course) and long talks for Hemingway to that edit that passage in a more French-friendly way.

 

 

In the end, Pierre liked discipline and the sense of greatness that it can transcend together with "order". There is definitely a slight crush on authority in his feelings. Being French, the alternative would have been chaos and strike rather than personal freedom and creativity. The "following orders" excuse fits there well, especially as it reinforces your dedication to higher cause. He very much regretted that it had to come to a war and in this sense trying to bond with German pilots was probably also a way of getting to terms finally.

 

Also, one should not forget, Pierre is a great storyteller, not an interrogator. It makes you friends with different kinds of people.

 

 

 

Besides my views on Pierre, I very much agree in the comments on Sheddans and Spurdles book. Sheddands book is a book that you can read if you read all other books. Spurdles work is much more interesting. Spurdle is a much simpler character and I'd say probably a more resilient one. Spurdle also had the great advantage of not having to preserve his family’s honor by being a hero in a battle, flying and fighting was good enough and he could preserve much of his nerves for the actual fight and looking at command in a very open minded and direct manner.

 

We should not forget, these are not people getting wasted by bullshit jobs. These are still more or less adolescent boys seeing people die over their own and other people’s mistakes. You don't take crap lightly when it gets you killed instead of getting your rent paid.

 

 

 

Felt i had to jump in here. 

First up I love Clostermann’s books. Have read them all including the one about flying in Algeria (The French in Algeria - a whole other can of worms) I still take the big show on long haul flights because it is an easy fun read.

The main thing about clostermann was he could write. I think he worked briefly as a journalist? Ive tried other aviation memoirs but so few pilots could write. Geoff Wellum being the exeption. 

A senior retired officer spoke to me at length about Clostermann some time ago. He too loved his books but took it all with a grain of salt. His father had flown Tempests with Clostermann and he was widely renowned for claiming kills that never happened. 

Apparently one day he landed and claimed to have downed two FWs. The ground crew questioned how that was possible given he hadn’t fired his guns!

He also had a terrible habit of losing his wingman - usually some young kid who he should have been looking after as a priority at that late stage, rather than showboating. 

Still - great books. 

Edited January 1, 2019 by Bumfluff

[Haza]

Gents,

 

I'm not really sure what agreements or hoops that Jason had to sign or jump through to get access to the Hendon Tempest and I realise that this team are not obliged to release their source etc for information and that I respect as it is their product.  However, it would be fantastic if Jason was able to let us see some of the inside pictures that he took as finding internal pictures of that MK Tempest as we know has been a challenge.

 

That said, I'm totally aware that perhaps the Tempest was not all intact as it should have been and perhaps Jason and the team may need to use some poetic licensing for this up-coming frame.  However, it would appear that never has so much not been viewed by so many but only by so few, that I believe it would be really fantastic to see some of Jason's pictures, although hopefully he used a digital camera and not a wet-film to only find that the lens cover was on or his thumb was a great picture!

 

Anyway, I appreciate that there may have been some limitations given on the use or publication of any pictures but hopefully we might see some of his original pictures rather than just in the sim!

 

Regards

 

H 

[Jason_Williams]

3 hours ago, Haza said:

Gents,

 

I'm not really sure what agreements or hoops that Jason had to sign or jump through to get access to the Hendon Tempest and I realise that this team are not obliged to release their source etc for information and that I respect as it is their product.  However, it would be fantastic if Jason was able to let us see some of the inside pictures that he took as finding internal pictures of that MK Tempest as we know has been a challenge.

 

That said, I'm totally aware that perhaps the Tempest was not all intact as it should have been and perhaps Jason and the team may need to use some poetic licensing for this up-coming frame.  However, it would appear that never has so much not been viewed by so many but only by so few, that I believe it would be really fantastic to see some of Jason's pictures, although hopefully he used a digital camera and not a wet-film to only find that the lens cover was on or his thumb was a great picture!

 

Anyway, I appreciate that there may have been some limitations given on the use or publication of any pictures but hopefully we might see some of his original pictures rather than just in the sim!

 

Regards

 

H 

 

This is a weird post. I'm not releasing any pictures I took. Unless it’s part of something where it would be appropriate. Hendon was very accommodating, but my work with them was done under a certain understanding. 

 

Jason 

[Haza]

Just now, Jason_Williams said:

 

This is a weird post. I'm not releasing any pictures I took. Unless it’s part of something where it would be appropriate. Hendon was very accommodating, but my work with them was done under a certain understanding. 

 

Jason 

 

Jason,

 

I'm not sure why you believe my post to be weird and that certainly was not my intention.  The whole Tempest cockpit quest for pictures was one that you asked the community for help with and indeed I certainly purchased a book on the Tempest/Typhoon hoping that it would have pictures that would be useful to aid both you and your team with this frame. 

 

Therefore, as I explained above, I'm sure that your pictures have generated a lot of attention and perhaps excitement with the Tempest fans (like myself) who have perhaps tried to help you in this quest and would perhaps be eager to see the real thing.  Therefore, as I have all ready alluded to in my post above, if you are under some type of understanding with Hendon or commercial agreement and can't publish them, then I understand and respect that.

 

Regards

 

H

[Jason_Williams]

Haza,

 

I didn't ask for anyone to buy books and spend their money beyond the support they already give us. But it's nice of you to try and help. This community is really one of the best in gaming. The folks in this community who have helped me have been thanked and they know they are appreciated. The reward for everyone will come in the form of a very nice and detailed Tempest later in 2019.

 

 

Jason

[ZachariasX]

13 hours ago, Bumfluff said:

The main thing about clostermann was he could write. I think he worked briefly as a journalist?

Yes, he did, for several newspapers and making a good penny from that. Apart from his writing abilities, he was fluent in Portuguese (his mother tongue), French, (also his mother tongue) and English (through school and studies in the States) and he would write articles in all three languages for Brazillian, American and British newspapers.

 

He ended up being a close friend of Ernest Hemingway, taking over the presiding position of the international game fish association after Hemingways passing.

 

Him being known for literacy also brought him a temporary assignement for the Free French fleet and aboard the Richelieu as liaison officer to escort a convoy on the Murmansk route.

 

He was an unusual creature in many ways, something that the RAF brass clearly noticed that. Being on deGaulles „priotity list“ added to that.

 

13 hours ago, Bumfluff said:

father had flown Tempests with Clostermann and he was widely renowned for claiming kills that never happened. 

Apparently one day he landed and claimed to have downed two FWs. The ground crew questioned how that was possible given he hadn’t fired his guns!

He also had a terrible habit of losing his wingman - usually some young kid who he should have been looking after as a priority at that late stage, rather than showboating. 

Maybe. Although I consider it a very good idea to take any yarn from any young lad in such a situation.

 

Badmouthing each other for losing wingmen is about the cheapest shot you can take, Pierre himself did that when talking about Fairbanks. What is for sure is that when machine gunning Flak protected ground targets, the following aircraft are less likely to make it than the leader. Fairbanks proved that by making a sport out of finding and shooting planes in the circuit of Rhine, a sport that was very unbecoming for wingmen.

 

On the other hand, Clostermann possibly carries the distinction of losing most Tempests in a sortie. This when attacking the airfield at Schwerin when no Typhies against Flak showed up and unknown to them, Himmler had landed there, bringing in extra Flak. Out of eight, just he and Bay Adams would return. Quelle connerie!

 

But reading Spurdles and Sheddans accounts, diving into known hairy situations, even if everybody knew that tem being Flak traps was routine business. Compared to those two, Pierre comes across as rather conservative, also occasionally aborting attack on trains that stopped or not doing second passes. He was certainly lacking Sheddans fatalism or Spurdles urge to kill Germans.

 

In later interviews at least, being explicitly asked on „habits of overclaiming“, Clostermann himself said that he didn‘t feel the need for claiming anything he coudn‘t prove and giving his own tally of air kills (AFAIR) around 17 aircraft, but I can check that. He said that he even shared one of his last kills with an Mustang pilot, as they were chasing the same victim. He thought that is was proper sport like that and a nice gesture, even though it ultimately meant wing 122 not being the top scorer. I could check that up in detail once I‘m back in my library, should there be interest.

 

The 33 crosses on the „Grand Charles“ reflect differences in counting, as French would put ground kills on there as well. Also, at no point in his book he would put something like „now I had then kills, being better than XY“. Air kills only exist in context of a good story. Remarkably enough, he never uses it for profiling himself in his writings and building an image.

 

There is one instance where he still shows respect to kill marks on planes. At the end of the hostilities on May 6th, 5 Me-262 from Prage(?) came in and landed on their airfield. The German commander was perfectly fluent in French, telling that he was of Hugenot ancestry and at his home they would always speak French. *) Clostermann showed him his park of Tempest, intentionally leading him up to the „Grand Charles“ with its crosses. The German however would ignore that entirely, being just interested in the aircraft, obviously having some deeper admiration for that fighter type.

After going through the logs of that german commander, Clostermann would see that he had scored „a hundred“ kills. Giving those 5 Germans the same quarters as they had themself he also saw that this guy had some pretty bad scars on his back.

 

Anyone able to find out who this was, and which squadron of 262?

 

 

 

*) That commander handed Closterman his Luger Pistol, something Clostermann kept for life afterwards. Clostermann even used that Luger later in the Algerian conflict, when the barman thought he wouldn‘t serve French military rating such as him, he convinced him at gun point. 

 

[LukeFF]

5 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

Anyone able to find out who this was, and which squadron of 262?

 

If they came from Prague, then it was likely some unit of JG 7.

[Haza]

9 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

Yes, he did, for several newspapers and making a good penny from that. Apart from his writing abilities, he was fluent in Portuguese (his mother tongue), French, (also his mother tongue) and English (through school and studies in the States) and he would write articles in all three languages for Brazillian, American and British newspapers.

 

He ended up being a close friend of Ernest Hemingway, taking over the presiding position of the international game fish association after Hemingways passing.

 

Him being known for literacy also brought him a temporary assignement for the Free French fleet and aboard the Richelieu as liaison officer to escort a convoy on the Murmansk route.

 

He was an unusual creature in many ways, something that the RAF brass clearly noticed that. Being on deGaulles „priotity list“ added to that.

 

Maybe. Although I consider it a very good idea to take any yarn from any young lad in such a situation.

 

Badmouthing each other for losing wingmen is about the cheapest shot you can take, Pierre himself did that when talking about Fairbanks. What is for sure is that when machine gunning Flak protected ground targets, the following aircraft are less likely to make it than the leader. Fairbanks proved that by making a sport out of finding and shooting planes in the circuit of Rhine, a sport that was very unbecoming for wingmen.

 

On the other hand, Clostermann possibly carries the distinction of losing most Tempests in a sortie. This when attacking the airfield at Schwerin when no Typhies against Flak showed up and unknown to them, Himmler had landed there, bringing in extra Flak. Out of eight, just he and Bay Adams would return. Quelle connerie!

 

But reading Spurdles and Sheddans accounts, diving into known hairy situations, even if everybody knew that tem being Flak traps was routine business. Compared to those two, Pierre comes across as rather conservative, also occasionally aborting attack on trains that stopped or not doing second passes. He was certainly lacking Sheddans fatalism or Spurdles urge to kill Germans.

 

In later interviews at least, being explicitly asked on „habits of overclaiming“, Clostermann himself said that he didn‘t feel the need for claiming anything he coudn‘t prove and giving his own tally of air kills (AFAIR) around 17 aircraft, but I can check that. He said that he even shared one of his last kills with an Mustang pilot, as they were chasing the same victim. He thought that is was proper sport like that and a nice gesture, even though it ultimately meant wing 122 not being the top scorer. I could check that up in detail once I‘m back in my library, should there be interest.

 

The 33 crosses on the „Grand Charles“ reflect differences in counting, as French would put ground kills on there as well. Also, at no point in his book he would put something like „now I had then kills, being better than XY“. Air kills only exist in context of a good story. Remarkably enough, he never uses it for profiling himself in his writings and building an image.

 

There is one instance where he still shows respect to kill marks on planes. At the end of the hostilities on May 6th, 5 Me-262 from Prage(?) came in and landed on their airfield. The German commander was perfectly fluent in French, telling that he was of Hugenot ancestry and at his home they would always speak French. *) Clostermann showed him his park of Tempest, intentionally leading him up to the „Grand Charles“ with its crosses. The German however would ignore that entirely, being just interested in the aircraft, obviously having some deeper admiration for that fighter type.

After going through the logs of that german commander, Clostermann would see that he had scored „a hundred“ kills. Giving those 5 Germans the same quarters as they had themself he also saw that this guy had some pretty bad scars on his back.

 

Anyone able to find out who this was, and which squadron of 262?

 

 

 

*) That commander handed Closterman his Luger Pistol, something Clostermann kept for life afterwards. Clostermann even used that Luger later in the Algerian conflict, when the barman thought he wouldn‘t serve French military rating such as him, he convinced him at gun point. 

 

 

@ZachariasX,

 

I have read a book titled "The Me 262 Stormbird" and it lists Me262 pilots with the number of kills so I will try and do a little research for you to see if any names pop out that align with this story.

However, as you appear to be a bit of a Clostermann expert, could you clarify his rank at the end of the war please? I have read that he was a Flight Commander (Flt Lt) with 3 Sqn from 8th Apr '45 onwards, so I'm confused as to why I have read articles that say he left the RAF in Jul '45 as a Wg Cdr (although it doesn't say acting or substantive and it was wiki) as I can't find his details Commanding any Wings (122) or Squadrons (3 and 56) or was this just a temp position as jumping form Flt Lt to Wg Cdr in such a short period, even during those days, appears a little strange! 

 

I will try and obtain a copy of the ORB for 122/125 Wg to see if that helps. 

 

EDIT (FYI, wiki mentions that Wg Cdr Mackie was CO 122 Wg in Apr '45 and prior to him it was Wg Cdr Brooker before his death Commanding so something doesn't add up.)

 

Regards

 

H

 

Edited January 2, 2019 by Haza
CO 122 Wg

[MiloMorai]

Clostermann was never official a commander of a squadron in 122 Wing.

[unreasonable]

1 hour ago, MiloMorai said:

Clostermann was never official a commander of a squadron in 122 Wing.

 

JUst to avoid possible confusion: the RAF - like the British Army, distinguishes between substantive rank (permanent, mainly based on seniority at lower levels), acting rank (rank at which officer is paid and for which rank insignia is worn), temporary rank (while assigned to a specific job) and job title. Generally the acting rank matched the job title, but not always and sometimes with some lag.

 

For instance, a British Army Company Commander (job title) would, in WW2, normally be a Captain (acting rank) who might have a substantive rank of Lieutenant.

 

In the RAF Flight Commander and Squadron Commander are jobs, not ranks, usually but not always performed by Flight Lieutenants and Squadron Leaders respectively (ranks). Wing Commander is, confusingly, a rank: but can also be a job.

 

To have a gap of two or three levels between substantive and acting rank in war time was not that uncommon for people who were in the right place at the right time and who had some senior sponsor. One example is de Guingand, who was Montgomery's chief of staff for over two years with an acting rank of Major General at the end of the war at which time he had only just been made a substantive Lt. Colonel. 

[PB0_Roll]

Clostermann was a flight lieutenant, and while he boasted being squadron leader (acting) and wing commander (acting), french historian claims he never was.

 

Whatever he wrote and did, what cannot be disputed is that he fought a dangerous war,  shot some planes and ground targets, survived and wrote great books about it.

 

Discussing what is really true is irrelevant, as in Desmoulins' , Rudel, Galland and many others' cases.

Edited January 3, 2019 by KGM_Roll

[Haza]

3 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

JUst to avoid possible confusion: the RAF - like the British Army, distinguishes between substantive rank (permanent, mainly based on seniority at lower levels), acting rank (rank at which officer is paid and for which rank insignia is worn), temporary rank (while assigned to a specific job) and job title. Generally the acting rank matched the job title, but not always and sometimes with some lag.

 

For instance, a British Army Company Commander (job title) would, in WW2, normally be a Captain (acting rank) who might have a substantive rank of Lieutenant.

 

In the RAF Flight Commander and Squadron Commander are jobs, not ranks, usually but not always performed by Flight Lieutenants and Squadron Leaders respectively (ranks). Wing Commander is, confusingly, a rank: but can also be a job.

 

To have a gap of two or three levels between substantive and acting rank in war time was not that uncommon for people who were in the right place at the right time and who had some senior sponsor. One example is de Guingand, who was Montgomery's chief of staff for over two years with an acting rank of Major General at the end of the war at which time he had only just been made a substantive Lt. Colonel. 

 

Unresonable,

 

I'm content with positions/ ranks and indeed the current title of Commanding Officer I believe is normally associated with a person who runs a Sqn, usually of Wg Cdr rank and indeed I believe that in today's modern RAF Sqn's, a Sqn is usually commanded by a Wg Cdr or indeed sometimes Sqn ldrs, however, they hold the position title of CO xx Sqn.  In addition, I'm sure that I have seen documentation where a FltLt had been the acting Commanding Officer of a sqn.   However, I agree back in the day owing to various thing such as death and who you knew could effect these positions.

 

However, I was trying to actually get my head around what Clostermann's actual real position or title was as having just checked a website dedicated to him it boasts how he obtained the RANK of Wing Commander and commanded a Wing.  That said, the one thing that the military is usually very good at doing, as in your example of COS, is to usually document such positions within orders etc and hence why I mentioned the ORB and was hoping that there might have been some book worms out there who would have the information to hand so that I could actually make some sense of my confusion. 

 

Regards  

 

H

 

 

1 hour ago, KGM_Roll said:

Clostermann was a flight lieutenant, and while he boasted being squadron leader (acting) and wing commander (acting), french historian claims he never was.

 

Whatever he wrote and did, what cannot be disputed is that he fought a dangerous war,  shot some planes and ground targets, survived and wrote great books about it.

 

Discussing what is really true is irrelevant, as in Desmoulins' , Rudel, Galland and many others' cases.

 

KGM_Roll,

 

Please understand, I'm not disputing what he wrote or did, nor am I questioning his integrity, however, I was asking for clarification regarding what has been written about his rank in various websites etc and as such I was hoping that there would be a simple answer as within the military, ranks and positions are usually well documented!

 

Regards

 

H

 

 

EDIT:  Gents, just to close this matter, the French version of wiki appears to suggest that during the transition period between WgCdr's Brooker and Mackie, FltLt Clostermann held the position of acting Commanding Officer during this period and as such was not a WgCdr.  

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by Haza

[Haza]

 

Hawker Typhoon and Tempest A Formidable Pair by Philip Birtles (published 2018)

ISBN -13: 978-1-78155-690-0

 

Gents,

 

I purchased the above book out of my interest for both the Tempest and the Typhoon and although the book doesn't contain any colour pictures, (nor any cockpit views that I hoped), it does contain lots of B&W pictures and is full of information.  I thoroughly enjoyed this book and would certainly recommend the book and commend the author for explaining the origins of both aircraft and detailing their development and operational life as well as giving details of the total production of 4 Tornados, 3317 Typhoons and 1399 Tempests built. I now believe that I understand a lot more about these aircraft and I'm looking forward to the Tempest later this year. 

 

Although I bought the book online from an online UK shop for the price of 35 pounds Sterling, I would suggest shopping around if you want to buy it as there are better deals now available.

 

Regards

 

H

 

"With the technology of the Hurricane being at the end of the biplane combat aircraft era, there was an urgent requirement for a modern fighter with a capability ahead of the anticipated German fighter development for the Luftwaffe. The Hawker design team lead by Sydney Camm created the all-metal stressed skin structure Typhoon powered by the revolutionary Napier Sabre engine. Whereas the Hurricane had been developed in peacetime, the Typhoon was designed in wartime, when the urgency of the programme caused the development of both the airframe and engine to be accelerated, resulting in teething troubles not being fully solved when the aircraft entered service with the RAF. The much improved Tempest used the same engine and basic fuselage with thinner lamina flow wings, giving improved performance at altitude, and allowing the destruction of the V1s at low altitude. Both aircraft made a significant impact on the victory by the Allies in WW2, although their low level ground attack missions were extremely hazardous, and resulted in high pilot losses".

 

    

Edited January 3, 2019 by Haza

[unreasonable]

3 hours ago, Haza said:

 

Unresonable,

 

I'm content with positions/ ranks and indeed the current title of Commanding Officer I believe is normally associated with a person who runs a Sqn, usually of Wg Cdr rank and indeed I believe that in today's modern RAF Sqn's, a Sqn is usually commanded by a Wg Cdr or indeed sometimes Sqn ldrs, however, they hold the position title of CO xx Sqn.  In addition, I'm sure that I have seen documentation where a FltLt had been the acting Commanding Officer of a sqn.   However, I agree back in the day owing to various thing such as death and who you knew could effect these positions.

 

However, I was trying to actually get my head around what Clostermann's actual real position or title was as having just checked a website dedicated to him it boasts how he obtained the RANK of Wing Commander and commanded a Wing.  That said, the one thing that the military is usually very good at doing, as in your example of COS, is to usually document such positions within orders etc and hence why I mentioned the ORB and was hoping that there might have been some book worms out there who would have the information to hand so that I could actually make some sense of my confusion. 

 

<snip>

EDIT:  Gents, just to close this matter, the French version of wiki appears to suggest that during the transition period between WgCdr's Brooker and Mackie, FltLt Clostermann held the position of acting Commanding Officer during this period and as such was not a WgCdr.  

 

 

My comment was not specifically to you, Haza, just a general point since those not in the military sometimes get jobs and ranks mixed up, especially in the RAF.  AFAIK RAF Squadrons in WW2 almost always had a Squadron Leader as their CO, not a Wing Commander.  If not a Squadron Leader a Flight Lieutenant as acting CO until a replacement arrived. 

 

As for Clostermann: Brooker was killed on 16th April and Mackie took over on 19th April, so if Pierre was temporary acting wing leader it was not for long: I expect he just answered the telephone.

[ZachariasX]

5 hours ago, Haza said:

EDIT:  Gents, just to close this matter, the French version of wiki appears to suggest that during the transition period between WgCdr's Brooker and Mackie, FltLt Clostermann held the position of acting Commanding Officer during this period and as such was not a WgCdr.  

This is correct. It is of note that Pierre had a great understanding with AVM Broadurst. Pierre would dine occasionally with Broadhurst, not something other simple Lieutenants would do. 

 

Pierre was never promoted beyond his initial rank when he sold his hide to deGaulle, as only deGaulle and later the air ministery in Paris could do so. Them (especially the latter) being French, they were mostly busy with themselves. As @unreasonable said, it was merely good sports (and being smart) the British played along and had no problem with a simple lieutnant commanding much senior ranks. Doubtfull that such could have happened vice versa. It meant considerable papaperwork, which nobody is fond of. But Pierre seeking confirmation being „great“ from a respected side took that with warm welcome.

 

What happened that after Brooker got shot down, Mackie who was leading 486 was on operational leave, while Shrader was posted to take command of the 616 meteors. So there was a vacancy. Filling in someone else would have meant not putting the designated successor into place, as it would require the new hire just die again or be sent to Burma for goid reason. HR hates such. They did then, and they do now. As an elegant solution making everyone happy, from mid April to the end of the war, the paperwork of Wing 122 was beong put on the desk of Lt. Clostermann.

2 hours ago, unreasonable said:

I expect he just answered the telephone.

He did everything that was required for this position. You don‘t need someone just wearing that badge. The RAF by then was capable not requiring such to do their job. What they did require was someone doing the actual work regardless of his rank. Pierre was the useful idiot that merrily acted as a stand in until Mackie returned.

 

Mackie took over formal command just after the war. Thinking of it, it must really have been a matter of convenience as much as a favor to Clostermann for Broadhust. With a single letter, he could make a simple Lieutenant the acting Wing Commander flying until things paced down to a more normal hiring rotation just after the war.

 

Thus, the RAF could never enlist Pierre as Wing Commander, even if they wanted to, so

10 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

Clostermann was never official a commander of a squadron in 122 Wing.

this is formally correct. You will not find any RAF roster showning Pierre in that position. You will find him in squadron logs that show him in positions „not suitable for a simple Lieutenant“.

 

The French in Paris on the other hand were as useful as a skin rash and gave Pierre the same envious welcome as the RANZF chairbone back in Wellington gave to Spurdle. Hating them with similar passion is what Spurdle and Pierre had in common. There, they sat in their Paris office, envious of the medals the 2% (!) surviving Free French obtained while they themselves kept their heads down making a living under Nazi rule.

 

Being good sports and becoming rather practical was one of the great assets of the RAF, making it in Spurdles opinion „the best air force in the world“. One might add that it took killing off the old boys network (almost completed by the end of the Battle of Britain) to value quality over rank in such an extent.

 

Mackie arrived back from leave just after the war to take command of 122. It was just before May 12th, the day of the big parade at Bremerhaven. On May 12th, Mackie again had to report to HQ at Schleswig, leaving Pierre again to lead the sqadron of 36 Tempests in that parade. It is where his wingman shaved of his tail ending with the collision of 4 Tempests, Pierre being the sole survivor. *) Realizing the twitch again got the best of him again by now, and that he most certainly he had expended his nine lives, being shot down twice, once in the Channel with his Spit and once sent to belly land his Tempest in a forrest (!) near Dümmer (he by luck saw a path and put down the aircraft there), he took a following day off to go and talk to Broadhurst who accepted Pierres resignation from service in the RAF.

 

 

 

*) An enquiry found that Pierres No.2 forgot to switch from wing tanks to belly tank and during passes in very tight formation, his engine cut, backing off directly in No.3 that had No.2 veer off and cut the empanage of Pierres Tempest, spraying the debris of all those Tempests right in the face of No.4.

[MiloMorai]

Those Tempests are not listed in the Tempest loss list.

 

36 Tempests would be a Wing.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

The younger sister to the Typhoon, very much looking forward to this amazing aircraft.

 

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, MiloMorai said:

Those Tempests are not listed in the Tempest loss list.

 

36 Tempests would be a Wing.

Yes, a Wing. 

 

Not on the loss list? As this was after the war, were they featured in a different listing, e.g. accidents? If not, there might be some corrections needed.

 

The other three pilots were Peter, Campbell and Robertson. According to Group Captain Jamieson, Peter was too low for the chute to deploy, the other two couldn‘t leave their aircraft.

 

Edit: On July 1st, during a solo demonstration in another airshow at Copenhagen, Clostermann ended his display by landing his replacement Tempest (not his JF-E) through the airfield controller vehicle, turning both into smaller pieces. He did so  right in fron of the VIP tribune, The King watching as well as AVM Broadhurst. While the King was asking about Pierres well being, Broadhurst, knowing Pierre since 1943, commented about is way „of never missing an occasion making himself interesting“.

 

Is that Tempest listed in the loss list?

Edited January 3, 2019 by ZachariasX

[Haza]

On 12/13/2018 at 11:52 AM, MiloMorai said:

 

The Tempest didn't carry bombs. Not sure if it was 11lb or 13lb but the fuel was 150 and W/C Beamont said he saw 415mph on the ASI at 500ft. 

 

On 12/13/2018 at 12:34 PM, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

They did, but rarely and typically towards the end of March and into April.

 

The book that I've just finished reading mentions in a throw away sentence that 33 Sqn was the first and last sqn to carry a pair of 500lb bombs into action during the last few days of the war.  Therefore, I'm hopeful that somebody may have some actual hard facts regarding this topic.

 

Regards

 

[MiloMorai]

17 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

Yes, a Wing. 

 

Not on the loss list? As this was after the war, were they featured in a different listing, e.g. accidents? If not, there might be some corrections needed.

 

The other three pilots were Peter, Campbell and Robertson. According to Group Captain Jamieson, Peter was too low for the chute to deploy, the other two couldn‘t leave their aircraft.

 

Edit: On July 1st, during a solo demonstration in another airshow at Copenhagen, Clostermann ended his display by landing his replacement Tempest (not his JF-E) through the airfield controller vehicle, turning both into smaller pieces. He did so  right in fron of the VIP tribune, The King watching as well as AVM Broadhurst. While the King was asking about Pierres well being, Broadhurst, knowing Pierre since 1943, commented about is way „of never missing an occasion making himself interesting“.

 

Is that Tempest listed in the loss list?

 

It helps if look at the Tempest loss list and not the Typhoon loss list.?

 

Sgt Campbell (SN166) and F/L Robertson (EJ588) collided and crashed north of Rotenburg.

 

56 OTO also lost 2 Tempests (EJ685, NV759) on that date as well as one from #222 (NV985).