Bf109G-14 tries to take on an A-20 in the vertical... loses

[Talon_]

Video: https://streamable.com/bfvw1

 

I Love the A-20 so much. 

 

He was faster than me during the deck run but turned too tight and bled too much energy on the way up:

 

 

 

 

Good fight @3./JG15_HansPhilipp 

[WheelwrightPL]

[peregrine7]

What server is this, that you can get Tacview exports!??

[SCG_ErwinP]

6 minutes ago, peregrine7 said:

What server is this, that you can get Tacview exports!??

Knights of the air.

1 hour ago, Talon_ said:

Video: https://streamable.com/bfvw1

 

I Love the A-20 so much. 

 

He was faster than me during the deck run but turned too tight and bled too much energy on the way up:

 

 

 

 

Good fight @3./JG15_HansPhilipp 

Unbeliveble, was you with bombs loudout?

[peregrine7]

1 minute ago, 3./JG15_HansPhilipp said:

Knights of the air.

 
Oh boy, really hoping that server gets more populated so I can fly it during Aussie hours. Been wanting Tacview of MP dogfights forever.

[SCG_ErwinP]

6 minutes ago, peregrine7 said:

 
Oh boy, really hoping that server gets more populated so I can fly it during Aussie hours. Been wanting Tacview of MP dogfights forever.

I like so much KOTA.

Better then Wings IMHO.

Edited September 26, 2018 by 3./JG15_HansPhilipp

[Cybermat47]

I fear no aircraft, but that... thing... it scares me.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Pb_Cybermat47

[Talon_]

4 hours ago, 3./JG15_HansPhilipp said:

Knights of the air.

Unbeliveble, was you with bombs loudout?

 

16 before you arrived but only 3x100kg during our fight. A-20 is a monster - people think it flies like a Mitchell because it looks like one, but that is not the case ?

Also of note is that I calculate fuel before takeoff and we had only a few % left. Landed with about 20 litres left in the whole aircraft! ?

[Ehret]

The heavier mass thus higher inertia (internal bombs) can help in a zoom, actually. It's only when you climb using engines power alone it becomes a drag.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Ehret

[SCG_ErwinP]

7 hours ago, Pb_Cybermat47 said:

I fear no aircraft, but that... thing... it scares me.

The only one that fear me is Pe-2 laser

 

3 hours ago, Talon_ said:

 

16 before you arrived but only 3x100kg during our fight. A-20 is a monster - people think it flies like a Mitchell because it looks like one, but that is not the case ?

Also of note is that I calculate fuel before takeoff and we had only a few % left. Landed with about 20 litres left in the whole aircraft! ?

I've saw pilots turn with it but not dogfighting with it and after I tryed to outrun you, looks like you was approaching, so i tryed to climb but this thing retained so much energy.
I'm disappointed man...Those sortie was my worst nightmare.

[Talon_]

41 minutes ago, 3./JG15_HansPhilipp said:

The only one that fear me is Pe-2 laser

 

I've saw pilots turn with it but not dogfighting with it and after I tryed to outrun you, looks like you was approaching, so i tryed to climb but this thing retained so much energy.
I'm disappointed man...Those sortie was my worst nightmare.

 

? Sorry mate!

 

It dogfights like a fighter, check it out:

 

 

[SCG_ErwinP]

Is TacView freeware?

[Talon_]

Yeah a limited version after 21 days but it does everything you need

[SCG_ErwinP]

Thanks!

 

Does you fly german planes?
How to correctly do a effective attack against A20?

Edited September 26, 2018 by 3./JG15_HansPhilipp

[Talon_]

1 hour ago, 3./JG15_HansPhilipp said:

Thanks!

 

Does you fly german planes?
How to correctly do a effective attack against A20?

 

Solo? I wouldn't. They're as capable as any fighter down low thanks to the low wing loading, good turn and high speed - the only drawback is poor roll rate. The best thing you can do is work in a pair and force him to make hard turns to bleed energy in front of your teammate, because in a 1v1 low altitude fight they're one of the best fighters VVS gets!

 

 

[SCG_ErwinP]

WTF!!

Was it possible to do in real life? I don't think so.

This plane appear to be better then a lot of fighters.

18 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

poor roll rate

It haven't poor roll rate, it rolls look like 190's (i was little bit exaggerated).

Edited September 26, 2018 by 3./JG15_HansPhilipp

[Ehret]

1 hour ago, 3./JG15_HansPhilipp said:

How to correctly do a effective attack against A20?

 

IMHO - bounce as usual - not many pilots are aware of what the Havoc can do. I'd look for under-wing bomb pylons too - if the A-20 has them then performance will not be as good. Remember that the Havoc "emergency+" engines power is time limited (1m probably). Just keep some distance after the initial attack and let the A-20 pilot deplete the timer.

[SCG_ErwinP]

Thank you @Ehret!

[CountZero]

its clear americans didnt know what airplane they had and insted having a-20s escorting b-17s and b-24s on bomb runs they waisted time on 38s, 47s and 51s ?

[Talon_]

32 minutes ago, 3./JG15_HansPhilipp said:

WTF!!

Was it possible to do in real life? I don't think so.

 This plane appear to be better then a lot of fighters.

 

It's smaller, lighter and more powerful than a JU88 which was used as a heavy fighter and night fighter by Germany. It's only 2 metres wider than a P-38!

[SCG_ErwinP]

1 minute ago, Talon_ said:

 

It's smaller, lighter and more powerful than a JU88 which was used as a heavy fighter and night fighter by Germany. It's only 2 metres wider than a P-38!

Okay, i accept your arguments. My unquiet is because it appear to be better than other fighters in a direct comparison.

 

29 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

its clear americans didnt know what airplane they had and insted having a-20s escorting b-17s and b-24s on bomb runs they waisted time on 38s, 47s and 51s ?

11 hours ago, Pb_Cybermat47 said:

I fear no aircraft, but that... thing... it scares me.

I change my mind..

[Poochnboo]

44 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

its clear americans didnt know what airplane they had and insted having a-20s escorting b-17s and b-24s on bomb runs they waisted time on 38s, 47s and 51s ?

I'm going to figure that you're probably joking 'cause of the imoticon, correct?

[CountZero]

1 minute ago, Poochnboo said:

I'm going to figure that you're probably joking 'cause of the imoticon, correct?

Yes

[TWC_TWC_SLAG]

Disclaimer:  I was flying against an AI A-20 in quick missions.  I was in a G14.

 

Not once, in 6 tries, was I ever on the defensive.  So, I never had to try climbing away from him.  I stayed out of range until I was ready to move in on him.  I had no trouble out maneuvering him.  There might have been a different outcome, if I was up against a live pilot.  But, I might be better than him.  Outcome, I would have no second thoughts about going up against an A-20 in Multiplayer.  For me, the A-20 Monster is just a myth.

 

Chuck Yeager:  "Its the man, not the machine."

[SCG_ErwinP]

47 minutes ago, SLAG said:

Chuck Yeager:  "Its the man, not the machine."

I agree, I'm a newbie and have a lot to learn.

[[CPT]Crunch]

If I may quote Feild Manual 30-30 Army and Navy pilots recognition manual,

 

"This aircraft is unquestionably one of the best in it's class, designed as a fast day bomber, this plane is also used as a fighter.  blaah blaaah  The A-20 is much used in large scale daylight fighter and bomber sweeps over France and North Africa.  Because of it's high performance, striking power, and maneuverability, losses have been relatively small."

 

Dedicated night fighter version known as P-70.

[Irgendjemand]

On 9/26/2018 at 1:48 PM, Talon_ said:

 

? Sorry mate!

 

It dogfights like a fighter, check it out:

 

 

Well. Just a subjective impression: But this doesnt seem very realistic to me.

[Talon_]

18 minutes ago, Irgendjemand said:

Well. Just a subjective impression: But this doesnt seem very realistic to me.

 

Why not? Did you think it's the size of a Mitchell? It's smaller, lighter, faster and more powerful than a JU88 night fighter. Bf110s can do all this and are only marginally smaller.

[EAF_51_FOX]

On 9/27/2018 at 5:11 PM, Talon_ said:

 

Why not? Did you think it's the size of a Mitchell? It's smaller, lighter, faster and more powerful than a JU88 night fighter. Bf110s can do all this and are only marginally smaller.

I agree with Irgend... as demostrated in another tread posting a REAL HISTORICAL DOCUMENTARY of WWII era the A20 was not in any way capable of so vertical manouvers/climb or even do looping as we see BO.X gamers do easly. It is just because FM of this plane in BO.X game is bugged.

 

https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=186                   HERE ROC (=1.500 Ft./min)

 

Just to remember that a bf 109 g  has almost 70% more  ROC  of a A20 ... so I don't think IRL any A20 pilot never go to go to dogfight with any fighter if just for evade from it.

 

Edited September 29, 2018 by EAF_51_FOX

[Talon_]

8 hours ago, EAF_51_FOX said:

that a bf 109 g  has almost 70% more  ROC  of a A20

 

According to what numbers? Because the climb rate as listed in game is on nominal power for the A-20, which is a lot less HP than the A-20 on full power.

We can calculate that at max possible power the A-20 is making over 550hp/ton. That's about the same as a Spitfire IX on +18lbs boost, or an La-5FN in boosted mode - and slightly better than a Bf109G without MW50.

 

Edited September 29, 2018 by Talon_

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 In game player has the A-20B, right? Stepped glazing in the nose, very little armor and no self sealing tanks. Equipped with R-2600-11 engines rated at 1600hp and had no turbochargers. At least this is what comes up when scouring for the exact model. A-20C and G onwards had the R-2600-23, additional armor, self sealing tanks and different glazing in the nose. Rate of climb is around 475m/min, maximum speed at 3,2km 510km/h(for the solid nose G-version with -23 engines). It is not faster than a 109F/G at any altitude in level flight, E-7 is another matter. Weight around 7800kg empty. Add crew and any meaningful amount of fuel and we are talking about some 9000kg of weight, maximum TO weight is around 10964kg. To me it seems the energy retention on the Havoc is off the scale giving it quite an optimistic performance. Notes of being "fighter like" does not mean it performs like one. It has lower G-limits and other flying limitations as well. A Bff109G-14 with MW50 should have no trouble at all leaving A-20 in the dust in any kind of maneuvers, especially with it´s excellent slow speed handling. Nice video anyway :)

[Ehret]

The current A-20 we have in the sim was known for very good handling and excellent power because she hadn't that much stuff the A-20G had. We need modelling of detonation - it's why the A-20 can push so much power using 2nd s-charger gear at low alt. Normally, it would blow engines in no time.

 

As for supposed superiority of something over other... specs are just one part; positions, energy state, pilot capability (like keeping plane co-ordinate), marksmanship will be overriding factors.

[EAF_51_FOX]

Everyone can add every positive aspect to justify such an evident uber FM of A20 as it is right now.may be the version we have in game now is the one prototype made of polistyrene, so favorite folks is in the right sentences.

Edited September 29, 2018 by EAF_51_FOX

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

14 hours ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S!

 

 In game player has the A-20B, right? Stepped glazing in the nose, very little armor and no self sealing tanks. Equipped with R-2600-11 engines rated at 1600hp and had no turbochargers. At least this is what comes up when scouring for the exact model. A-20C and G onwards had the R-2600-23, additional armor, self sealing tanks and different glazing in the nose. Rate of climb is around 475m/min, maximum speed at 3,2km 510km/h(for the solid nose G-version with -23 engines). It is not faster than a 109F/G at any altitude in level flight, E-7 is another matter. Weight around 7800kg empty. Add crew and any meaningful amount of fuel and we are talking about some 9000kg of weight, maximum TO weight is around 10964kg. To me it seems the energy retention on the Havoc is off the scale giving it quite an optimistic performance. Notes of being "fighter like" does not mean it performs like one. It has lower G-limits and other flying limitations as well. A Bff109G-14 with MW50 should have no trouble at all leaving A-20 in the dust in any kind of maneuvers, especially with it´s excellent slow speed handling. Nice video anyway

 

According to the stats in game the A-20B has an empty weight of 6781Kg, standard weight (full fuel, ammo and crew) is 8366 Kg. With 50% fuel it's down to 7838 Kg. And Talon uses the trick to engage second supercharger gear at low altitude, since the engines don't have an automatic manifold pressure regulator, it causes them to overboost to 60" of manifold pressure, which if 43" at 2400 RPM is 1600 HP at sea level, then 60" at 2400 RPM would be aroudn 2200 HP each engine, so you end up with a pretty good power to weight ratio (~4400 HP for 7838 Kg if the plane has 50% fuel, which can get higher the less fuel it has), giving it comparable rate of climb to single engine fighters, at least for the little time this overboost lasts, which is around 1 min before the engines get damaged because of the timer, and with it's big 43.18 m^2 wings it also gets similar wing loading to single engine fighters.
 

Edited September 30, 2018 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[Talon_]

9 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

 

According to the stats in game the A-20B has an empty weight of 6781Kg, standard weight (full fuel, ammo and crew) is 8366 Kg. With 50% fuel it's down to 7838 Kg. And Talon uses the trick to engage second supercharger gear at low altitude, since the engines don't have an automatic manifold pressure regulator, it causes them to overboost to 60" of manifold pressure, which if 43" at 2400 RPM is 1600 HP at sea level, then 60" at 2400 RPM would be aroudn 2200 HP each engine, so you end up with a pretty good power to weight ratio (~4400 HP for 7838 Kg if the plane has 50% fuel, which can get higher the less fuel it has), giving it comparable rate of climb to single engine fighters, at least for the little time this overboost lasts, which is around 1 min before the engines get damaged because of the timer, and with it's big 43.18 m^2 wings it also gets similar wing loading to single engine fighters.
 

 

This is all correct. Also I now precalculate fuel for sorties so that I can do these maneuvers if we get into trouble. For the sortie in the video we took off at 30% fuel and even after lean mixture cruise for the entire trip back I landed with the fuel needle on zero.

 

Edit: 4400hp/7500kg aircraft gives 586.67hp/tonne.

 

Spitfire IXe WEP: 1720hp/3354kg: 512.82hp/tonne

 

Bf109G-14 MW50: 1775hp/3200kg: 554.69hp/tonne

Edited September 30, 2018 by Talon_

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

So basically gaming the game and exploiting something that propably would not work in RL. Video tells something else about your fighter maneuvers

 

http://zenoswarbirdvideos.com/A-20.html

 

 

Edited September 30, 2018 by LLv34_Flanker

[Talon_]

9 hours ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

So basically gaming the game and exploiting something that propably would not work in RL. Video tells something else about your fighter maneuvers

 

 

No, I don't often use it as it's a bit of a cheat. Better off flying co-ordinated on regular full emergency which you get for 5 minutes instead of 45 seconds, which is what I did in the above video as seen here (without a MAP regulator full emergency does end up generating a bit over 43" of MAP at such low altitudes):

Edited September 30, 2018 by Talon_

[TWC_TWC_SLAG]

13 hours ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S!

 

So basically gaming the game and exploiting something that propably would not work in RL. Video tells something else about your fighter maneuvers

 

http://zenoswarbirdvideos.com/A-20.html

 

 

This is a bomber, not a fighter, he said.  No steep turns, beware of accelerated stalls, wings get over stressed.

[CUJO_1970]

Its a G4, not a G14.

 

Also - handbook for this R2600 engine specifically forbids engaging second gear below rated altitude..."the high ratio blower should not be used below the altitude specified as the power output of the engine would be considerably less..."

 

So, this is not how the engine behaved in real life, using high gear like this...it's gaming the game and could just as easily be submitted as a bug report.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

1 hour ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Its a G4, not a G14.

 

Also - handbook for this R2600 engine specifically forbids engaging second gear below rated altitude..."the high ratio blower should not be used below the altitude specified as the power output of the engine would be considerably less..."

 

So, this is not how the engine behaved in real life, using high gear like this...it's gaming the game and could just as easily be submitted as a bug report.

The output is less at the same engine settings using the second gear at low altitude, because now the supercharger compresses more the air, and thus to mantain the same pressure the supercharger needs to be throttled down (cut down from air), and as Greg's says, superchargers hate being throttled. However with the second gear at low altitude you are not using the same engine settings, you are increasing them making use of the increased compression, going up in manifold pressure.

And this works correctly in game, if you use the same settings at the second gear the engines produce less power: With the first gear with 43" at 2400 RPM and 30% shutters, the A-20 makes 498 km/h at sea level. With the second gear at the same 43" 2400 RPM setting, speed goes down to 464 km/h, so you have a loss of power if you throttle it down.

I think what can truly define the actual exploitness of using full power at second gear at low altitude is to calculate if the engine would catastrophically detonate at 60", like instantly. After all the time limit is like 35 seconds in this mode, and usually around 1 minute mark or less the engines get damaged.