Engine rev's destroying motor is historically wrong

[Kurfurst]

Neither the Merlin nor the Spitfire was special in that regard, limitations on WEP usage in all air forces was simply put forth to

 

(i) avoid unnecessary wear and tear of the engine at its highest ratings, leading to more frequent overhauls and more replacement engines to be delivered

(ii) minimize the chance of a catastrophic in-flight failure, considering there was a wide array of operating conditions, wear level and variance in mass produced engines

 

Engines could be and were pushed beyond these 1-3-5-10 minutes of time limits on WEP in real life, yet in the flight sim environment these limits are more hard coded, for the better of worse. However the rules apply to each and every one - you cannot single out any engine to be a bit more equal and freely disregard the (artificial) engine limitations laid down in the manual, while all others would have to strictly adhere to it, giving unfair advantage.

 

In short, either the self-destruct timer applies to all or none; there is no exceptions and no middle way.

[Talisman]

2 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Neither the Merlin nor the Spitfire was special in that regard, limitations on WEP usage in all air forces was simply put forth to

 

(i) avoid unnecessary wear and tear of the engine at its highest ratings, leading to more frequent overhauls and more replacement engines to be delivered

(ii) minimize the chance of a catastrophic in-flight failure, considering there was a wide array of operating conditions, wear level and variance in mass produced engines

 

Engines could be and were pushed beyond these 1-3-5-10 minutes of time limits on WEP in real life, yet in the flight sim environment these limits are more hard coded, for the better of worse. However the rules apply to each and every one - you cannot single out any engine to be a bit more equal and freely disregard the (artificial) engine limitations laid down in the manual, while all others would have to strictly adhere to it, giving unfair advantage.

 

In short, either the self-destruct timer applies to all or none; there is no exceptions and no middle way.

I do not feel free to make sweeping statements or assumptions about other aircraft and air forces apart from the ones I have seen evidence for and can read and understand in context.  For example, I have not seen similar guidance for German aircraft regarding combat limits, so I don't know what their policy was regarding any leeway for pilots.  Also, I can't read German so I would not know it if I saw it.  Nor could I read and understand the results of any endurance testing details.  So I trust to those that can.

As I have said, I think the self destructive timer, as you put it, is rather crude and I would rather see another approach, perhaps based on more real world individual engine reliability evidence, if that was possible and reasonably practicable for the dev's.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[Livai]

16 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Engines could be and were pushed beyond these 1-3-5-10 minutes of time limits on WEP in real life, yet in the flight sim environment these limits are more hard coded, for the better of worse. However the rules apply to each and every one - you cannot single out any engine to be a bit more equal and freely disregard the (artificial) engine limitations laid down in the manual, while all others would have to strictly adhere to it, giving unfair advantage.

 

In short, either the self-destruct timer applies to all or none; there is no exceptions and no middle way.

 

Giving unfair advantage? - In combat or war there is nothing fair - Or you think hand to hand combat is fair? Pilots who fight for survive do you think they carefully follow the manuel instructions. Each Engine was tested beyond their limits to allow the pilots to push it where they have no other choice.

 

-> If the Pilot fly beyond the time limits set in the manuel instructions he survive to fight another day the engine can be replaced repaired except human life.

 

Here we play a Game to have time restrictions for WEP is not a big problem as long it not cause negative waves. Best example the Bf-109 G-2! Here with this plane I can ramp the RPM up to 2700U/min and stay much longer compared to planes who really support WEP Power. I don't understand it how they can put this in the same barrel 1.3ATA @ 2700U/min vs 1.42ATA @ 2700U/min = limited to 1min

 

-> Compared to VVS planes the German planes shine in high RPMs if you limit to 1min this is truly bias!

 

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

11 hours ago, Livai said:

Here we play a Game to have time restrictions for WEP is not a big problem as long it not cause negative waves. Best example the Bf-109 G-2! Here with this plane I can ramp the RPM up to 2700U/min and stay much longer compared to planes who really support WEP Power. I don't understand it how they can put this in the same barrel 1.3ATA @ 2700U/min vs 1.42ATA @ 2700U/min = limited to 1min

 

 

The DB 605 has 1.42 ata at 2800 RPM, that's why at 2700 RPM it can sustain it for a longer time compared to the DB 601E, since it's not the max RPM (while 2700 is max RPM for the 601E). If you use 2800 RPM in the G-2 it will get damaged much quicker.

Using 1.3 ata at 2700 RPM in the F-4 is similar to using 1.3 ata at 2800 RPM in the G-2 in terms of time limit,  using 1.3 ata at 2700 RPM in the G-2 is similar to using 1.3 ata at 2600 RPM in the F-4, if you want to make it a comparison somehow.

I personally tend to use intermediate settings in the F-4/G-4/G-6, which is 1.37 ata at 2600RPM for the F-4, and 1.37 ata at 2700 RPM for the G-4/6. You can use them at least for 4 minutes, and then there is an extra random time, which can be quite variable, best I got was 9 minutes during a test.

Another plane that's a bit screwed in the time limits is the Spit Mk Vb, the in game specs say 5 minutes for +16 boost at 3000 RPM, but it really is 3 minutes time limit, then there is the random extra time, and +12 is limited to 4 minutes.

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[Livai]

14 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

 

The DB 605 has 1.42 ata at 2800 RPM, that's why at 2700 RPM it can sustain it for a longer time compared to the DB 601E, since it's not the max RPM (while 2700 is max RPM for the 601E). If you use 2800 RPM in the G-2 it will get damaged much quicker.

Using 1.3 ata at 2700 RPM in the F-4 is similar to using 1.3 ata at 2800 RPM in the G-2 in terms of time limit,  using 1.3 ata at 2700 RPM in the G-2 is similar to using 1.3 ata at 2600 RPM in the F-4, if you want to make it a comparison somehow.

I personally tend to use intermediate settings in the F-4/G-4/G-6, which is 1.37 ata at 2600RPM for the F-4, and 1.37 ata at 2700 RPM for the G-4/6. You can use them at least for 4 minutes, and then there is an extra random time, which can be quite variable, best I got was 9 minutes during a test.

Another plane that's a bit screwed in the time limits is the Spit Mk Vb, the in game specs say 5 minutes for +16 boost at 3000 RPM, but it really is 3 minutes time limit, then there is the random extra time, and +12 is limited to 4 minutes.

 

 

-> Doesn't change the fact that the G-2 is the only plane that holds over 5min @2800U/min that is far longer than the F-4, G-6, G-14 WEP-Planes ever could reach. From the G-14 I expected even more with their MW-50 the G-14 is plain and simple a G-6 clone with the same time out. The DB605 Engine in the G-2 is superior than the DB605 Engine in the G-4, G-6, G-14 because the G-2 is not a WEP-Plane. Clearly show how the Devs bias the WEP-Planes!

-> Doesn't change the fact that the Devs put in WEP-Planes 1.42ATA @ 2800 U/min or 1.3ATA @ 2800 U/min in the same barrel and lock them to 1min.

 

Yeah there is a random time but still the same problem that the Devs put RPM and ATA in the same barrel. First Planes don't have Gearboxes like cars! Next RPM in planes behave the same as in cars motorbikes.............

 

They simple take the advantage away where German planes shine in RPMs what allow you to climb better even on low speed and lock the WEP Planes to 1min. This is bias!!!!! If I circle around + climb I don't need 1.42ATA I take better RPMs to allow me even under combat power to climb much better at low speeds. If I dive down take advantage from the 1.42ATA to shorter the distance very quickly between me and my enemy. In WEP planes you can't use more RPM and less ATA or less RPM and more ATA because both is locked to 1min. Your are simply locked to use WEP the 1min but not how you want and need. Everything ends with 1min.

 

Spoiler

 

Bf-109 G-2

 

 

Bf-109 F-4

 

 

Bf-109 G-6

 

 

 

Bf-109 G-14

 

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Livai

[D3adCZE]

From my tests in G2 1.3 ATA at 2800 RPM only ~2.5 minutes were safe to use.

[Livai]

2 hours ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

From my tests in G2 1.3 ATA at 2800 RPM only ~2.5 minutes were safe to use.

 

Depends how you did the tests! Because the G-2 Engine breaks much faster if go above 2800 RPM already 2850 RPM is early death. If you tested it this way you just shortage that time. Clearly safe are ~ 5 minutes continuously in combat situations keep the engine between 2700 - 2800 RPM but under 2800 RPM. Best is to keep the Engine at 2750 RPM

 

Here look the test started at 12:00 and ended at 12:06

-> Results are that the G-2 DB605 Engine holds 5 minutes and 45 seconds at 2750 RPMs!!! The only plane who can master this where all other WEP-Planes are hardcoded locked to 1min + 1min additional random time...........

 

Spoiler

 

Bf-109 G-2 -> The G-2 is breaking through the hardcoded WEP Barrier - Push it to the limits

 

 

Bf-109 G-2 -> The Moment where the Engine breaks

 

 

 

[D3adCZE]

44 minutes ago, Livai said:

Snip

Will perform my tests when I get home and will post results. From my testing ~2.5 minutes on 2800 RPM is 100% safe. Above ~3 minutes it was starting to get random.

[Livai]

1 hour ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

Snip

 

Enjoy this flight-record how I fly ~ 8 minutes continuously @ 2700 - 2750 RPM in the G-2! 

Download

https://www51.zippyshare.com/v/pVn2pCGA/file.html

Edited September 11, 2018 by Livai

[Barnacles]

2 hours ago, Livai said:

 

Depends how you did the tests! Because the G-2 Engine breaks much faster if go above 2800 RPM already 2850 RPM is early death. If you tested it this way you just shortage that time. Clearly safe are ~ 5 minutes continuously in combat situations keep the engine between 2700 - 2800 RPM but under 2800 RPM. Best is to keep the Engine at 2750 RPM

 

Here look the test started at 12:00 and ended at 12:06

-> Results are that the G-2 DB605 Engine holds 5 minutes and 45 seconds at 2750 RPMs!!! The only plane who can master this where all other WEP-Planes are hardcoded locked to 1min + 1min additional random time...........

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Bf-109 G-2 -> The G-2 is breaking through the hardcoded WEP Barrier - Push it to the limits

 

 

Bf-109 G-2 -> The Moment where the Engine breaks

 

 

 

Yes but in a G4 at 2750 rpm I got around five minutes until engine damage at 1.3 Ata. I don't think there is nothing special in the G2 that means it can withstand more running at high revs than the G4.

[ZachariasX]

You guys are really flying the 109 with prop set to manual?

[Livai]

3 hours ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

Yes but in a G4 at 2750 rpm I got around five minutes until engine damage at 1.3 Ata. I don't think there is nothing special in the G2 that means it can withstand more running at high revs than the G4.

 

~1 minutes the Emergency Power expired message appear in the G-4 but you don't use Emergency Power. If you go now after ~3 minutes into the dive and push the engine with 1.42 ata and 2800 rpm you rip the engine apart thanks to the hardcoded WEP-Timer. The G-2 is different much different than all WEP-Planes together! First the G-2 doesn't support WEP so it doesn't have this stupid WEP-Timer hardcoded that can't tell the difference between rpm and ata. Next is, in the G-2 I can use the 1.3 ata  2750 rpm unlimited time until combat power expire.  Fascinating, we speak about the same engine DB605 but what is indeed much better in the G-2 than in all other planes what have the same engine.

BTW ata create thermal stress to the engine not rpm alone, rpm vs ata are like apples and pears. Fascinating, in my flight-record what I uploaded there you can clearly notice how low ata and high rpm even extend the time how long you can use it in this plane in the moment when the plane climb above 5000m where the combat power goes from 1.3, 1.2 down to 1.0 ata what proves that high rpm alone do nothing to the engine as long you keep the rpm for what the engine was cleared for.  In other words the  Emergency Power expired message is wrong indeed wrong if you I only raise the rpms for what the engine is cleared for. That the engine breaks in the G-2 ~5 - 8 minutes continuously usage makes really sense because the G-2 never was cleared to use 2800 rpm due oil problems what is realistic. The G-4, G-6, G-14 and all other 109s are cleared for 2800 rpm if the engine breaks here is simple unrealistic bias. These planes never had oil problems so the engine holds out the 2800 rpm unlimited time but if you try to go beyond the 2800 rpm you rip apart the engine because everything what is above 2800 rpm the engine never was cleared for when it break depends how old the engine was and how good the quality from the engine parts were, we play fresh factory new planes so their engine holds a while before it breaks

 

The G-2 is Special indeed Special because this plane proves how far we are from the reality 

 

2 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

You guys are really flying the 109 with prop set to manual?

 

Yes, I do

[ZachariasX]

7 minutes ago, Livai said:

Yes, I do

Willy would have your a** kicked for that. ?

Edited September 11, 2018 by ZachariasX

[LukeFF]

5 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

You guys are really flying the 109 with prop set to manual?

 

Gamers will always try to game the system. 

[D3adCZE]

22 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

Willy would have your a** kicked for that. ?

I do as well.

 

I am not sure if I would feel anything, I've got metal plate instead of a**. I got it blown of by a Peshka.

[LukeFF]

25 minutes ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

I do as well.

 

And you're wasting your time, trying to gain approximately a 0.0000001% increase in performance while fiddling with that stuff manually. 

[Livai]

40 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

And you're wasting your time, trying to gain approximately a 0.0000001% increase in performance while fiddling with that stuff manually. 

 

-> governing rpm is prop efficiency ?

[JtD]

So, how much faster do you go?

[Mac_Messer]

If you fly earlier Emils then manual pp becomes natural overtime.

[LukeFF]

14 hours ago, Livai said:

-> governing rpm is prop efficiency 

 

Looking out of the cockpit and focusing on the sky is efficiency - vs staring at the instrument panel trying to remember how long you've run the engine at an extremely high rpm.

 

11 hours ago, Mac_Messer said:

If you fly earlier Emils then manual pp becomes natural overtime.

 

There are no Emils in the game with manual prop pitch-only, and it's still grossly inefficient. There's a darn good reason why Messerschmitt and Tank spent all that time developing automatic prop pitch systems. 

Edited September 13, 2018 by LukeFF

[Livai]

15 hours ago, JtD said:

So, how much faster do you go?

 

See the two screenshot below " Without overclocking vs Overclocked " ?

 

10 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Looking out of the cockpit and focusing on the sky is efficiency - vs staring at the instrument panel trying to remember how long you've run the engine at an extremely high rpm.

 

-> This is why I do this  + 0.5 ata and + 300 rpm more in emergency power what I gain from it? ?

And this far more than what you said before 0.0000001% increase in performance. In emergency situations well worth spend ?

 

Spoiler

 

!!!Without Overclocking!!!

 

 

!!!Overclocked!!!

 

 

 

[ZachariasX]

16 minutes ago, Livai said:

See the two screenshot below " Without overclocking vs Overclocked " ?

I always thought "The Timer™" being on the very coarse and punitive side of things. Now I think it should be even more strict.

Edited September 13, 2018 by ZachariasX

[LeLv76_Erkki]

Regardlesss of RPM and ATA, how much faster do you fly? How much faster do you climb?

[AtomicP]

On 9/8/2018 at 12:22 PM, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

Z

 

No we don’t. 109s had no restriction on WEP when cleared, contrary to the in game representation.

Not my words actually. I was quoting @peregrine7 and referring to a different point.

[LukeFF]

6 hours ago, Livai said:

This is why I do this  + 0.5 ata and + 300 rpm more in emergency power what I gain from it? ?

And this far more than what you said before 0.0000001% increase in performance. In emergency situations well worth spend ?

 

Your two screenshots show the exact_same_airspeed. ?

[BraveSirRobin]

17 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Your two screenshots show the exact_same_airspeed. ?

 

‘You are incorrect.  They show !!!The Exact Same Airspeed!!!!

[LeLv76_Erkki]

25 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Your two screenshots show the exact_same_airspeed. ?

 

I tested this. Stalingrad Autumn, 300 meters. Full throttle achieves 528 indicated. Switched to manual and raised RPM to 2900. In 1 minute 40 seconds speed had risen to 540 km/h IAS and was still very slowly creeping up when the engine blew up.

 

I'm not convinced that its worth it except maaaayyybe in a pure level pursuit where I'm already on vector to home and the enemy is right at the edge of guns range and I want to squeeze everything out of the machine for 30 seconds or so.

[Livai]

Quote

17 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Your two screenshots show the exact_same_airspeed. ?

 

16 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

‘You are incorrect.  They show !!!The Exact Same Airspeed!!!!

 

 

Both wrong ?, I show the exact same airspeed but not the same alittude.................

I not wanted to show here how is the speed -> I wanted to show that the ata increase when the rpm increase

The speed goes up with +1 km/h with overclocking and without overclocking the speed goes down with -1 km/h. 

-> Are you jealous because it looks like you are because I play the game how I see right and if I notice by doing so interesting stuff and share it here you appear playing the big boss because someone notice something what you didn't before

 

BTW this is what I wanted to show to share I have even more to show what is even more better than this but how every spell also does not show its tricks, so I too. Every advantage what I gain from my style I can use against you in MP, so be it ?

 

 

23 hours ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

Regardlesss of RPM and ATA, how much faster do you fly? How much faster do you climb?

 

I wanna I wanna I wanna I wanna I wanna know... ?

 

I use it only for climb - in MW-50 planes it works the most more than I expected the speed goes up than down so in dogfights with climb + turn I gain a lot from it without to lose speed even in planes with C-3 boost it works great but not increase the ata what MW-50 do because MW-50 need RPM pressure to work effectively the only difference. In the 190s works great, too. 

 

[LeLv76_Erkki]

You are incomprehensible, try to cool down

[D3adCZE]

On 9/13/2018 at 12:32 PM, LeLv76_Erkki said:

Regardlesss of RPM and ATA, how much faster do you fly? How much faster do you climb?

From my tests with manual prop pitch the G2 gains 10kph ias on deck and approximately 3 meters per second climb rate. In Yak1b vs G2 situation, this is rather significant performance gain. Much more than @LukeFF states.

Edited September 19, 2018 by CSAF-D3adCZE

[303_Bies]

On 9/11/2018 at 3:13 PM, ZachariasX said:

You guys are really flying the 109 with prop set to manual?

In case of 109G-2 it is really big gain since the limitation of G-2's engine. Manually increasing RPM using pitch when you prop hang with the enemy behind you often decides the outcome. 

Manual increase of pitch in all german planes is making taxing easier due to smaller prop wash.

Manual increase of pitch in all german planes (and  even P-40 ) is making landing easier due to quicker reaction if you have to go to the next circle.

Using manual pitch is some situations is both pactical and historically correct, adviced in real historical manuals. IDK what is strange about that.

Edited September 20, 2018 by bies

[Kurfurst]

1 hour ago, bies said:

Using manual pitch is some situations is both pactical and historically correct, adviced in real historical manuals. IDK what is strange about that.

 

Indeed.

 

http://kurfurst.org/Engine/Boostclearances/DB601_RPM_increase.html

 

 

[ZachariasX]

3 hours ago, bies said:

Manual increase of pitch in all german planes is making taxing easier due to smaller prop wash.

I knew for ground operation and takeoff you set it to manual and fully fine.

 

3 hours ago, bies said:

Using manual pitch is some situations is both pactical and historically correct, adviced in real historical manuals. IDK what is strange about that. 

It is strange that FockeWulf had the 190 delayed about a year because the Kommandogerät was an issue. If doing things the Spitfire way was so common why not puting it in service and retrofit the tech gizmo?

 

I mean, just wondering. Not telling you how to fly your aircraft.

[unreasonable]

29 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

I knew for ground operation and takeoff you set it to manual and fully fine.

 

You can - but the G-2 manual I have recommends automatic.  The only time manual is required - provided the governor is working -  is for an idling descent or to meet the ata and rpm requirements for economy cruise.  On the former I find the wording a bit ambiguous,(see below) but I take it to mean that on an idle descent you should use manual to maintain fine pitch without it becoming too fine.  Taxiing is easy on automatic with the rpm showing 1200-1300, no prop fiddling required.

 

I generally fly the entire mission on automatic from take-off to turning the plane in the emplacement to face out before turning off the engine.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by unreasonable