How to control an outlet oil or head cilinders temperature in FW190 A-5 or A-8 ?

[Livai]

21 hours ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

A-8 even with similar fuel load is heavier, has the outer wing cannons and MG131s plus the direction finding antenna that all add both weight and drag. But it also runs considerably hotter. In A-3 and A-5 I get away running 30 % outlet gills most of the time, in A-8 I need to use at least 50 % and it still at times overheat even when not using full power and EN boost. I hope it gets hotfixed before Bodenplatte's release.

 

I had the time and made the tests and the result is scathingly! (Open the hidden spoiler alert to watch the screenshots)

 

Fw-190 A-3

-> Overheat at 89 degree celsius

-> Overheat duration from 79 to 89 degree celsius

-> stay at 59 degree celsius dived down from 5276m to 168m with 793 km/h

 

Fw-190 A-5

-> Overheat at 65 degree celsius with outlet set to 0% (closed)

-> stay at 60 degree celsius even with outlet set to 100% (open) dived down from 7259m to 116m with 773 km/h

 

Fw-190 A-8

-> Overheat at 85 degree celsius with outlet set to 0% (closed)

-> stay at 70 degree celsius even with outlet set to 100% (open) dived down from 7250m to 948m with 794 km/h

 

Spoiler

 

Fw-190 A-3 Overheat

 

 

 

Fw-190 A-3 Overheat Duration

 

 

Fw-190 A-3 Cooling

 

 

Fw-190 A-5 Overheat

 

 

Fw-190 A-5 Cooling

 

 

Fw-190 A-8 Overheat

 

 

Fw-190 A-8 Cooling

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2018 by Livai

[JG4_Sputnik]

Intersting Livai, thanks for sharing.

Note however, that the sim has modeled some randomness - I made some tests with the bf109 F4 the other day and what happened was that with 1.42 ata I got different overheating times in all tests. 

 

All from 1min  - 2min 45sek until the motor got damaged. I did it also with manual cooling  which had no influence on the overheating times. Everytime I tested I got a different value.

So on the one hand I think it is cool to have some randomness, cause an engine doesn't exactely behave like the other, not every engine overheats at exactely 1min and 3seks, which I think is also true to real life.

 

However, I don't get what the manual cooling is for anyway, when you can't influence the overheating time of your engine with it...?

So I don't know if this is all too complicated to comprehend, or if it is just flat out modeled "wrong", meaning that the sim doesn't get deep enough in that system because it is too much effort.

 

 

[Livai]

As for the Fw-190 A-3 in terms of how it manage to survive overheat. Take a look at Fw-190 A-3 Overheat + Fw-190 A-3 Overheat Duration Screenshots. If the message Overheat appear at 79 degree celsius there you need to go down to continuous engine power how I did 79%. this allow me to extend the Overheat to 89 degree celsius as you can see in the screenshots this way I managed to climb +1342m more with very low speed 233 km/h down to 178 km/h short after the engine breaks. The A-5 and A-8 behave the same however it always depends how you fly them! Why? Because it depends on it if you can use very aggressive outlet value without problems or not all the time. I managed to flying today the A-5 and A-8 with very very low outlet value and nothing happend if I don't fall below that certain speed. What leads me to assume that this can be done with every plane.

 

The overheat message means nothing don't fear it. I did flying the bf-109 G-6 with this boring overheat message over 10min and wondering for what this message stay for? Randomness feature? - Why I can repeat it all the time?

 

-> BTW keep in mind the screenshot what I show here are before the engine breaks for sure.

 

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

@JG4_Sputnik the damage you are reporting with the F-4 isnt because overheating, it is the time limit of using 1.42 ata, and yes it has some random extra time once you go past the time limit (in this case 1 minute), regardless of temperature. 

 

@Livai bare in mind that only the oil temperature is displayed, we dont know the cylinder head temperature, and if the plane overheats with low oil temps, its the cylinders the ones that are overheating, like in the case of the A-5 with 0% shutters. 

[PainGod85]

 

8 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

 

@Livai bare in mind that only the oil temperature is displayed, we dont know the cylinder head temperature, and if the plane overheats with low oil temps, its the cylinders the ones that are overheating, like in the case of the A-5 with 0% shutters. 

 

Someone else tested this at full speed and 1.42 ATA a few weeks ago, where German manuals said to close the shutters. Even then the A-8's oil temperature was much higher than the A-5's when - if anything - the A-8's engine should've been running cooler as it was running a later revision of the same engine.

 

In that same thread mention is made how the shutters also don't cause a meaningful increase in oil radiator airflow as well as very little increase in airflow over the cylinders.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Yes, I know. I was just making it clear because it sounded as if he was surprised by the fact that sometimes the engine overheated even though the oil temperature is low. 

[CUJO_1970]

Just had a chance to fly it online for the first time, against humans. (DED_Normal)

 

I killed 6 Spitfire IX, a Yak1B, An IL/2 and 2 Pe-2 + 4 assists in about 2-1/2 hours with it, along with destroying 22 ground objects. The firepower of this aircraft is simply appalling - and I did not use the MK-108. http://72ag-ded.ru:8080/en/pilot/7606/CUJO_1970/?tour=37

 

As expected, the overheat is a major problem and severely limits the tactical use of this aircraft in dogfighting, by denying the power you should have available to compensate for the extra weight. You have to fly it on a knifes edge to do good in it and adjust your tactics to the limited envelope you have available to you.

 

The flaps have to stay open constantly. Make the slightest mistake with the cooling flaps and it will even happily overheat on cruise settings at lower ata, when you fly at a high AoA (zoom climb, turns etc.) Lower ata is actually where all your problems are with this airplane, inexplicably. This I suspect is due to a strict interpretation of the A8 POM which lists the limitations of the old 801D2 (F600) powerplants, limited to 1.42ata for only three minutes. In addition, this engine runs already considerably hotter at lower ata settings than either A3 or A5. This clearly should not be the case.

 

You can access the boost, 1.58 and 1.65ata and she is fast...and this is why overheating at 1.42ata and even lower boost settings feels so strange.

 

Once you overheat, you can plan on staying hot.

 

Beyond these engine problems (which is a big problem), this is a good job representing the A8. It's heavy as it should be and feels much heavier in turns than A5, as it should. The firepower is incredible, and helps you understand why the Luftwaffe actually reduced firepower in the Dora-9.

 

If the A8 gets fixed, it will be a real headache for the opposition. It already is in the hands of the "old hares". If we ever get an A9 I would probably never fly another airplane.

 

I sincerely hope this gets fixed soon.

 

 

[mb339pan]

A8 is: great firepower, but poor accelleration, poor maneuverability, poor climb rate. The overheat function affects but not soo much on general poor plane performance

A5 with mgff is better

[Livai]

On 9/3/2018 at 12:42 PM, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

Yes, I know. I was just making it clear because it sounded as if he was surprised by the fact that sometimes the engine overheated even though the oil temperature is low. 

 

And why then the game tell me to watch the Oil temperature?

Anyway I always close every radiator and let the engine running until it dies then I note the value how high the temperature was next time I know how far and how long I can go with closed radiators until the engine dies for sure and how much I need to open them to have effective cooling without slowing down the plane too much.

[Barnacles]

On 9/4/2018 at 2:58 AM, CUJO_1970 said:

 

 

I sincerely hope this gets fixed soon.

 

 

I hope so too. One of the a5 or a8 is definitely 'wrong' but I find it hard to believe the a5 is incorrect. It overheats in only in extreme situations, which makes sense, as these things are generally designed to stay within correct temperature in combat situations in any temperature that they can be expected to fly in. If they couldn't, they'd refine the design, (see Yak). The a8 clearly doesn't do this which I find hard to believe was the case historically.

[Livai]

Look how the hot A-8 lady goes further and beyond the 100 mark! It's over 105!!!!!! Yes yes, I did it I surpassed the 100 degree celsius!   Don't forget to look at the cylinder temperature how low the are just saying how impressive the are.......

 

-> The best is the Engine doesn't break apart ?

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2018 by Livai

[CUJO_1970]

Boost itself seems to be working OK at 1.58ata provided you don't first cook the engine under what should be normal cruise/climb conditions ?

 

Overheat at lower ata is the bigger issue now with FW190A-8:

 

Already overheating, near the start of an online mission under normal flight conditions. This is what ruins it as a fighter currently, and severely restricts access to even 1.35 or 1.42ata - never mind boost at 1.58 or 1.65ata.

[Barnacles]

37 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Boost itself seems to be working OK at 1.58ata provided you don't first cook the engine under what should be normal cruise/climb conditions ?

 

Overheat at lower ata is the bigger issue now with FW190A-8:

 

 

Already overheating, near the start of an online mission under normal flight conditions. This is what ruins it as a fighter currently, and severely restricts access to even 1.35 or 1.42ata - never mind boost at 1.58 or 1.65ata.

 

Yes I agree. One of the most fun and satisfying things about flying different planes is learning and exploiting their advantages. The A8's strength should be the ability to fly a bit faster than the previous 190s owing to it's enhanced boost, but these advantages a nullified by the requirement to open your cowls more than when flying at the same ATA and rpm as the A5.

 

6 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

The La5FN is the most similar aircraft to the FW190A-8. There should be very little difference in cooling overall with these two aircraft.

 

Prior to accessing 10-minute boost limitation at 1.58/1.65ata, the FW190A-8 engine temperatures should behave very similarly to the way the La5FN does under the same flight conditions. Why wouldn't they?

 

 

 

In the game the A5 is the most similar plane, yet the outlet 'gills' which I think are identical need to be opened further on the A8. Maybe the developers had info for a different test for the A8 and A5, but the A8 tested must have been a 'sick puppy'.

 

As to the LA5FN, it is a different plane. The tolerances in the engine may have been completely different, but you can see how interpretation of overheating has a massive effect on how you employ an aircraft. If the FN ever needed you to open the outlet cowls, it'd be a lot slower. I'm not saying it's wrong in game, I do not have a historical test of the heat, but the A8 and FN are two opposite extremes and I wonder if someone has accidentally missed out a decimal point in the calculations maybe.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

As far as I am aware, for the A-5 and A-8, In real life, the outlet cowls should be closed in high speed level flight and the temperatures should be okay in either 1.42ata or 1.58/65

[LeLv76_Erkki]

Possibly related, I find the Yak-7 to overheat more than Yak-1. They have the same M-105PF engine. I know the cooling system was apparently less draggy than in Yak-1, but was it also less effective?

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

13 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

Possibly related, I find the Yak-7 to overheat more than Yak-1. They have the same M-105PF engine. I know the cooling system was apparently less draggy than in Yak-1, but was it also less effective?

 

The oil cooler outlet in the Yak-7 is less eficient than the ones in the Yak-1s, looks like that door-like shutter blocks some of the airflow in the open position compared to the other flap-like shutters. If im correct when the M-105PF was implemented the Yak-1 got new oil radiators and new type of radiator shroud/flaps, but the Yak-7 kept it the same as the variants with the earlier engines. With the change to the Yak-9 it would have got the better oil rad shroud and flaps similar to the ones in the Yak-1.

Edited September 7, 2018 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[CUJO_1970]

1 hour ago, RoflSeal said:

As far as I am aware, for the A-5 and A-8, In real life, the outlet cowls should be closed in high speed level flight and the temperatures should be okay in either 1.42ata or 1.58/65

 

Everything I've read, including flight/climb tests indicate open on the ground, partially opened during climbs, and otherwise closed.

[=DMD=Marduk879]

On 7/27/2018 at 4:33 PM, JtD said:

The idea is that you just fly by the books and have nothing to worry about. And the books say for flying in moderate conditions:

- on the ground: open

- in extended climbs: half open

- everything else: closed.

The rest was done by the engineers back home.

Why this isnt true ingame? The manual isnt trustworthy enough?

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Someone made a bug report about it. But I cannot find it. Have the devs deleted it or how does it work?

 

Currently there seem to be only two proper modi operandi of the A8 which are reliable without overheating cylinderheads:

 

Cruise flight infinitely at 75% throttle, cowls fully open. This gives 1 minute extra time when going into combat.

While in combat, for 10 minutes, 100% Throttle + Boost active + cowls half open/open enough to keep the indicated oil temperature under 90°C.

 

Flying in combat without the boost means that the cylinderhead temp, which isn't indicated in the cockpit, gets too hot too quickly. The engine then only relies on you flying quick enough at any time - to provide a proper airflow. Hence classical Combat Power (80-86%) or not-boosted Emergency Power (87-99%) yield way less time than 10 minutes in practice. At least that is my experience by now.

 

Flying that way let me avoid busting my engine by accident.

 

I hope they fix the thing soon, it has become one of my favourite aircrafts.

Edited September 11, 2018 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[klebor]

La-5FN had similar cooling system, even with summer Kuban i can fly La-5FN with cowl flaps fully closed, oil radiator also fully closed, full boost and max RPM and after 10 minutes i'm even below optimal temperature! In La-5FN manual there is stated 10 min boost was restricted due to thermal issues of cylinders. Here i can fly with fully closed radiators in the hottest enviroment without consequences with cold engine. 

What is even a purpose of oil radiator in La-5FN if you can fly with fully closed in the hottest conditions?

Edited September 18, 2018 by sereme1

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

That's a good question ?

[Livai]

Since some above started to talk about the La-5FN better look at the Curtiss P-40, too

-> Fly the Curtiss P-40 close the outlets to forever enjoy the hot 110 degree celsius the overheat message appear but you don't care them just fly, fly forever with closed outlets in the Curtiss P-40 but in the A-8 the engine dies if you try the same thing................

 

Back to the A-8 did anyone notice that the A-8 only needs +25% more outlet open than the A-5, really nobody? Am I the only one who noticed this?  ?

 

 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

I have noticed that the A8 needs more than just +25% on the A5. You forgot heat and dissipation. The thing doesn't cool off properly, which makes matters worse. 

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

So has this been acknowledged as a bug by the developers?

 

Anyone with 'Tester' status able to provide insight into the status? I assume you guys have access to a closed section to report bugs etc?

[PainGod85]

6 hours ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

So has this been acknowledged as a bug by the developers?

 

Anyone with 'Tester' status able to provide insight into the status? I assume you guys have access to a closed section to report bugs etc?

 

I am seconding this question.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

LukeFF is a tester and has confirmed it has been reported, thank God. Now it's up to the devs to look into the code's variables and fix it. 

 

I can't wait to have a more competitive radial Fw190 for '44. Currently, the G14 has so much more oomph under the hood, its engine screams at you if you push the throttle fully forward and no cowls slow you down excessively. 

[Rattlesnake]

Randomly variable engine breakage does not belong in a game of this tyoe. Leave dice tossing to D&D.

 

WWII fighter engines were regularly run at high power levels longer than the manual advised without breaking. This fact makes the whole mechanic of the engine taking damage if you run it at WEP a minute too long more than a little dubious. Now of course you have to do *something* to prevent virtual pilots from simply using max power from takeoff till final.  Virtual pilots don’t have to concerned about engine life after all, so there must be some compensating game mechanic. However the engine breakage threshold needs to be consistent. And there has to be some kind of indication players can actually monitor, IOW you know the engine is fine as long as the appropriate gauge stays below a given temp, something along those lines.

Example: I was listening to this on my commute today. Fantastic talk, I strongly urge you all to listen to the whole thing. Anyway, at around 42:00 of this talk he mentions taking his mechanic up for a ride (yes, there was necessarily lap-sitting involved). During this joyride the pilot kicked in WEP/water injection just show what it feels/sounds like. Hardly a thing one would be likely to do just for fun if WEP was so stressful on the engine that leaving it engaged for 6 minutes instead of 5 was at all likely to strand one in glide mode Nazi-occupied Europe.

 

[EAF19_Marsh]

35 minutes ago, Livai said:

?

 

The remove of the MG131 cause big holes where fresh air can move in, doesn't this improve cooling? Anyway it should improve cooling because there is more room for fresh air without the MG131 and MG131 Ammo. Compare the right screenshot the MG131 housing is fully closed and aero dynamic but in the left screenshot not has even big holes where air moves in, lol

 

 

 

I would suspect that the additional cooling effect is limited given that the mounts are not connected to the engine space in a meaningful way.