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dburne

VKB MCG Pro Grip

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I had a nice surprise this afternoon, the MCG Pro grip I ordered that was scheduled to arrive on Tuesday actually arrived this afternoon.
That is 3 days from date of shipping (Tues) to receipt here in the U.S. today. Very impressive!

Holding it in my hand it feels very nice, solid and smooth button actions. With all the 4 ways with push it is not lacking in the available buttons department.
The flip up trigger and the brake axis paddle are very nice as well. When you flip up the trigger, it has a nice solid clunk to it as it hits the stop, I like that.

The only thing that I think might be a little difficult, extending my right index finger to manipulate that 4 way button on the side of the stick might be somewhat cumbersome, and I have large hands. I don't mean in reaching it, it is just where that button is positioned on the inside of my index finger, pushing it forward might be a little challenging. I think my large hands maybe hurts me a little with this. Will have a better feel for that once it is hooked up and I am actually flying with it.

And one disappointment I had, and this is on me really. I was thinking the pinky button on the stick was situated more to the front middle of the stick, facing the brake paddle. I was hoping to use it in DCS as a "modifier" button, where I could assign two commands to a button press by using a modifier. Not sure it is going to work well for me with it being so far on the side of the grip. I would want to use it as a press and hold modifier. So say I press button 1 and it does one thing, then I hold the pinky button and press button 1 and it does another. Again though, will need to get it all hooked up and actually fly with it to get a better feel on this.

Thinking it was not arriving till Tuesday I do not have my Gunfighter converted to the Pro and hooked up to my extended Monster Tech Mount yet, so can't just slap it on and go flying.
Maybe tomorrow I will get time to get it all hooked up and give it a spin.

Overall though initial impression from just holding this grip, it feels very solid - I like the weight it has to it, button presses feel great! Triggers are nice, brake paddle is very nice. English labels look great. Just couple of concerns on how easily I will be able to use a couple of the buttons for what I hoped for remains to be seen until I get it all hooked up and flying with it.

Once I have that done and flying with it for a bit, will report back.

I have been waiting on this puppy for right at a year, finally now I will have a reason to pull my new ( over 1 year old ) Gunfighter out of the box and get to try it out. So I am excited about finally getting to use the VKB setup as I had intended.

 

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Posted (edited)

Ok so here she is all set up and ready to go. Have not got to fly much with it yet, apparently I may have damaged the #50 springs when I put them in the gimbal using needle nose pliers. The first spring I put in was stretched out of shape, so I removed it and thought the two I put in looked ok, but maybe they were not.  I have a lot of slop around center, I mean a lot - especially in the pitch axis. Luckily I had 8 of these #50 springs, so going to try taking those out and putting two more in. This time I will use zip ties looped around the end of the spring and pull them over the fastener they hook to, someone on another forum mentioned this as best way to install these springs. The #50 springs are a bit of a bear to get pulled over the fastener.

 

Will pick up some zip ties either tomorrow afternoon or first of week and give it a try.

Will report on my thoughts with this stick once I can actually get some stick time in it. I tried flying with it but with all the slop the plane was very difficult to control.

I will say the feel of the stick is impressive, feels very solid and smooth. The MCG Pro grip certainly has plenty of buttons as well. The flip down trigger and the brake axis paddle are especially nice in quality. You even get a button press available on flipping the trigger back up.

Downloading the software and installing the new firmware for the Gunfighter and MCG Pro was very easy and had no difficulties in that regard.

 

Gunfighter Pro Mk I with MCG Pro Grip on Monster Tech Extended Desk Mount.

 

 

 783788884_GunfighterPro.thumb.jpg.ab83689077ae735a9af75c1cd78430e3.jpg

Edited by dburne
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Ok so it was the springs!
Picked up some zip ties . Way easier put these springs on using zip ties instead of needle nose pliers. Got the damaged springs out and replaced with two more new #50 springs. Sure am glad VKB sent extras of those. Also put a little dab of grease on the hooks of the springs to hopefully help wear on them ( tip from rrhode).

I am getting good at this lol, had it off the Monster Tech mount, gimbal apart - springs replaced, back together and back on mount. Recalibrated and gave it a quick spin, all within about an hour.
Now the stick returns to center properly every time, so much nicer.

 

MCG Pro grip is working nicely without any issues. Just wish that darn pinky button was more centered facing the front, I want to use it as a press and hold modifier button but is somewhat cumbersome with it positioned where it is and still be able to press other buttons whilst holding it in with my pinky. Can't say I have seen any ghost button presses as of yet, but am using the software dated July 7th so don't know if that addressed that or I just have not run across yet. But this MCG Pro grip is certainly very nice indeed.

All in all am very pleased now. Need some more stick time with it, running the #50 springs with the installed #10 cams, it almost feels like a no center feel. Very soft around center. Don't know if adjusting the friction plates ( have them fully loosened up), or adding say a #30 spring to each axis with the #50 might help. Or maybe a cam swap for the #30 cams. I really don't want a very hard center feel, but would not mind a little more pronounced center feel over what I currently have.

 

I am very pleased now with the VKB Gunfighter Pro with MCG Pro grip setup. It is one very smooth and very precise stick.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, 6./ZG76_Archie said:

The question has to be, will you use this or the Virpil now? 

 

I will likely use both, set up the VKB for certain planes and Virpil for others perhaps. They are both hooked up on their own deskmounts so very easy for me to switch between the two.

Not really sure at this time if I will settle on one. So far I like them both.

 

At some point hopefully in the near future I will do a side by side comparison of the two sticks - both are very good, and each has their own strong points. I have plenty of stick time in with the Virpil setup, quite a lot of hours and I love it - now just need to get some stick time in with the VKB Gunfighter Pro to get a fair comparison.

Edited by dburne

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dburne - is the  Mongoose grip slightly smaller more compact than the VKB MCG? I mentioned in another thread having tried it, and the MCG seems maybe a bit larger/bulkier, but not sure if that's correct...    

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, gn728 said:

dburne - is the  Mongoose grip slightly smaller more compact than the VKB MCG? I mentioned in another thread having tried it, and the MCG seems maybe a bit larger/bulkier, but not sure if that's correct...    

 

Oh yes most definitely, the Mongoose grip is more compact and easier to wrap the hand around. Buttons very easy to get to with the fingers.

MCG is bulkier and it is taking me some getting used to as to where the buttons are and how far I have to reach to them. And I even have big hands.

 

Shot of them both together MCG Pro on the right:

 

 

Grips.jpg

 

I would also note, that what appears to be a POV hat on the far left of the MCG Pro grip, is not a POV hat nor does it generate buttons presses.

It is actually two axis. Not sure what I would use that for, was a little disappointed in that as I am one of those that just can't get enough buttons the more the merrier LOL. The top middle hat is a POV hat.

 

I understand there is some way to change that programming in one of the beta versions of the software to produce button presses, but have not delved into that quite yet.

 

One other thing I was a little disappointed with - the pinky button on the grip. It is way over on the left side of the grip, not the easiest to reach with the pinky finger. I was hoping it might be more like the Warthog button which is in the middle facing front. It would have been much easier to manipulate.

Edited by dburne

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Yep - thanks - that's what I thought -  lol - don't suppose you can put a Mongoose grip on a Gunfighter base (small hand guy..:rolleyes:)..

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, gn728 said:

Yep - thanks - that's what I thought -  lol - don't suppose you can put a Mongoose grip on a Gunfighter base (small hand guy..:rolleyes:)..

 

Nope two different pin outs.  However I think VKB offers Warthog grip adapters for the Gunfighter, if can find them in stock. Mongoose grip is same pin out as the Warthog.

 

https://vkbcontrollers.com/?product=tm-warthog-adapter

Edited by dburne

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Ah - interesting -  I've also looked at pics of that Space grip VKB is doing as it seems smaller, more compact, though with way less buttons...

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, dburne said:

I would also note, that what appears to be a POV hat on the far left of the MCG Pro grip, is not a POV hat nor does it generate buttons presses.

It is actually two axis. Not sure what I would use that for, was a little disappointed in that as I am one of those that just can't get enough buttons the more the merrier LOL. The top middle hat is a POV hat.

 

I use those 2 axes for the gunsight range and wingspan settings used with the Spitfires.

Edited by LukeFF

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1 minute ago, LukeFF said:

 

I use those 2 axes for the gunsight range and wingspan settings used with the Spitfires.

 

Ah ok thanks, will give that a go.

9 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

I use those 2 axes for the gunsight range and wingspan settings used with the Spitfires.

 

Hey Luke a question for you, or anyone else that may have experience with this setup:

Are you running a Gunfighter with extension? If so would be curious how you set yours up?
I am using the #50 springs, and the installed #10 cams. Just feels  very soft around the middle, almost like a no center. 

 

Did not know if I should consider tightening some on the clutches, or add say #20 springs to the #50, or even changing to the #30 cams. I do not want a very hard center, but would like some center feel and maybe a little more resistance as I move the stick.

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38 minutes ago, dburne said:

Hey Luke a question for you, or anyone else that may have experience with this setup:

Are you running a Gunfighter with extension? If so would be curious how you set yours up?
I am using the #50 springs, and the installed #10 cams. Just feels  very soft around the middle, almost like a no center. 

 

Did not know if I should consider tightening some on the clutches, or add say #20 springs to the #50, or even changing to the #30 cams. I do not want a very hard center, but would like some center feel and maybe a little more resistance as I move the stick.

 

Yes, I have an extension with my Gunfighter - in fact, I just received it a few days ago. I'm using the #50 springs as well as the stock soft-center cams (one spring on each cam). To be honest, I totally forgot about tightening the clutches while I had the stick apart, because I had become so accustomed to using the stick like that before installing the extension. Having the clutches tightened just made the stick too "sticky" around the center and more trouble than it was worth. So, with having used the extension now for a few hours (exclusively with the P-39), I find the stick's tension is fine for me (plus, being able to rotate the stick more to the left makes it even more comfortable). I'm not wobbling or bouncing my planes all over the sky, and I can hold the gunsight on targets without any issues.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Yes, I have an extension with my Gunfighter - in fact, I just received it a few days ago. I'm using the #50 springs as well as the stock soft-center cams (one spring on each cam). To be honest, I totally forgot about tightening the clutches while I had the stick apart, because I had become so accustomed to using the stick like that before installing the extension. Having the clutches tightened just made the stick too "sticky" around the center and more trouble than it was worth. So, with having used the extension now for a few hours (exclusively with the P-39), I find the stick's tension is fine for me (plus, being able to rotate the stick more to the left makes it even more comfortable). I'm not wobbling or bouncing my planes all over the sky, and I can hold the gunsight on targets without any issues.

 

Ok thanks for the feedback. Sounds like I just need to give it some time and see how I adjust to it.

In my Virpil setup I have the soft center cams and soft springs, but it is stiffer and what I had gotten acclimated to - the VKB as I have it is much softer throw and looser around center. I have a hard time even telling where center is just by stick feel.

 

I will log some time with it as is and see how it goes. It likely is I just need to adjust from what I have been used to with the Virpil setup.

I will get it set up for the Spit and make use of that hat for wingspan and range.

Edited by dburne

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I run single 50 springs with an extension and it is light. I run a bit of clutch in mine too. I don't mind a bit of stiction as I figure moving the real thing wouldn't be perfectly smooth either. I tried going back to no clutch and actually didn't like the feel as much. Possibly due to running less spring tension. 

 

I opted for the 30 Cam on the pitch axis only so that I could feel where the centre point was if I wasn't trimmed correctly and was turned around in VR. It's harder to hold the stick perfectly centre twisted around and I didn't want to bleed more E in an escape attempt than needed. Roll is fine, I can see that and in my favorite ride can't trim it anyway. 

 

I like the pinky button placement. Maybe it will grow on you. 

 

I converted the top left hat switch to button presses only for IL2. I also use the handbrake as the NWS/Undesignate button in DCS F18 after converting the axis to register a button press as well. 

 

 

The 30 cam is a bit lumpier than I would like,  perhaps a 20 if one was available might have been better. 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

I run single 50 springs with an extension and it is light. I run a bit of clutch in mine too. I don't mind a bit of stiction as I figure moving the real thing wouldn't be perfectly smooth either. I tried going back to no clutch and actually didn't like the feel as much. Possibly due to running less spring tension. 

 

I opted for the 30 Cam on the pitch axis only so that I could feel where the centre point was if I wasn't trimmed correctly and was turned around in VR. It's harder to hold the stick perfectly centre twisted around and I didn't want to bleed more E in an escape attempt than needed. Roll is fine, I can see that and in my favorite ride can't trim it anyway. 

 

I like the pinky button placement. Maybe it will grow on you. 

 

I converted the top left hat switch to button presses only for IL2. I also use the handbrake as the NWS/Undesignate button in DCS F18 after converting the axis to register a button press as well. 

 

 

The 30 cam is a bit lumpier than I would like,  perhaps a 20 if one was available might have been better. 

 

Interesting, thanks for the info. Next time I have the gimbal out I may try dialing in just a little on the clutch. 

Not sure about the pinky button, main thing I would want is to use as a press and hold modifier and it is just not very ergonomic trying to keep that pressed with my pinky whilst pressing another button on the grip. I use this modifier mainly in another sim, not IL-2.  I will keep trying it that way though and see how I get along.

 

 

Edited by dburne

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Posted (edited)

It's not at the pinky position though right? That would be tough?   More like ring/middle finger? Just a squeeze of the fist on the grip. 

 

I'm on the train leaving work will double check when back home. 

 

I use mine for voice comms as I lack a  decent throttle.  (waiting for vkb,  but this might be at least another year away). 

 

 

Edit: Just realised that it probably depends on your palm support position. Think I am 1 notch from the bottom. 

Edit2: Back home from work - yeah, ring finger for me.

Edited by =EXPEND=Tripwire

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2 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

It's not at the pinky position though right? That would be tough?   More like ring/middle finger? Just a squeeze of the fist on the grip. 

 

I'm on the train leaving work will double check when back home. 

 

I use mine for voice comms as I lack a  decent throttle.  (waiting for vkb,  but this might be at least another year away). 

 

 

I think really it is kind of in between, have tried it with both and find it cumbersome with both.

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4 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

I use mine for voice comms

 

That's what I use mine for as well.

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1 minute ago, dburne said:

 

I think really it is kind of in between, have tried it with both and find it cumbersome with both.

 

I thought it was poorly positioned at first, but it's second nature now and feels well placed. Received mine early Jan? Maybe it will grow on you over time too. 

 

 

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KG12 is more comfortable for middle sized hand. Thats is what some of us must have in mind.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

I use those 2 axes for the gunsight range and wingspan settings used with the Spitfires.

 

Ok question for you on this. I took a look at the aircraft specs and it did not really clear this up for me.

So I assigned both to that hat with the two axis.

When I use it in game, it moves the adjustments properly. Is there a way to lock that in, or does one just hold the hat about where they have it whilst firing?

 

Got everything mapped to the Gunfighter. Been flying alone in a quick mission most of the morning, it is feeling pretty nice. I think I just have to get used to the much softer feel over my Virpil stick, but I am doing pretty good with it now and ready to resume my Career to continue trying this out.

 

5 hours ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

 

I thought it was poorly positioned at first, but it's second nature now and feels well placed. Received mine early Jan? Maybe it will grow on you over time too. 

 

 

 

For how I want to use that button ( press and hold modifier), it is easier for me to use the pinky rather than third finger and still be able to reach the buttons on the front of the grip with my thumb. 

I adjusted the palm rest up, and it seemed to help make it a little easier for me to manipulate that pinky while pressing other buttons.

 

I am getting there!

:dance:

Edited by dburne

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Hmm so that top middle hat acts as a pov hat, and if you press the button in on it and hold it for 3 seconds, it then turns into two relative axis.

Press 3 seconds again and turns back to the POV hat. I use this hat for pitch and yaw trim, guess I accidently pressed it for three seconds and my trim went away I was like what the heck. Then pressed again and voila trim was back LOL.

 

There ought to be something I could use those relative axis for to utilize them...

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, 6./ZG76_Archie said:

VR zoom perhaps?

 

 

Isn't that just a button press and hold? Not sure an axis can be assigned to that.

Already have it mapped to my throttle which is working well for me also.

Edited by dburne

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4 hours ago, dburne said:

Ok question for you on this. I took a look at the aircraft specs and it did not really clear this up for me.

So I assigned both to that hat with the two axis.

When I use it in game, it moves the adjustments properly. Is there a way to lock that in, or does one just hold the hat about where they have it whilst firing?

 

You'll need to go into the VKB software and change the setting of those axes from absolute to relative.

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4 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

You'll need to go into the VKB software and change the setting of those axes from absolute to relative.

 

Ah ok thanks.

I may use the POV hat ( press 3 seconds) trick to use that, it turns into a relative axis. I have my trim set on it, but another 3 sec press returns it to the POV hat.

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, dburne said:

Are you running a Gunfighter with extension? If so would be curious how you set yours up?
I am using the #50 springs, and the installed #10 cams. Just feels  very soft around the middle, almost like a no center. 

 

Have You tried the 4X50 springs setup - 2 springs on one axis. But watch out of the breaking bolt issue! I do not reccommd using clutches = weird stickiness effect/feel.

 

How the VKB soft center is to compared to Virpil soft center? I've found VKB to floppy/soft around center and IMO VKB must elaborate on new soft CAM - more linear. The currently available soft CAM is too soft around center and too hard at the edge of delection. CAMs from MFG is a good example of well balanced CAMs.

 

 

Edited by Piekarz

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20 minutes ago, Piekarz said:

 

Have You tried the 4X50 springs setup - 2 springs on one axis. But watch out of the breaking bolt issue! I do not reccommd using clutches = weird stickiness effect/feel.

 

How the VKB soft center is to compared to Virpil soft center? I've found VKB to floppy/soft around center and IMO VKB must elaborate on new soft CAM - more linear. The currently available soft CAM is too soft around center and too hard at the edge of delection. CAMs from MFG is a good example of well balanced CAMs.

 

 

 

I will say I am finding the soft center cams for the Gunfighter to be way too soft for my taste. I have a larger area around center where I really feel no resistance, makes it very hard to even know when stick is center. Flew three missions in my Career this afternoon, and my flying/gunnery was not so great, at least as compared to what I had with the Virpil.  For my taste the feel of the Virpil with their soft center cams and soft springs was ideal. Obviously this is very much a personal preference.

 

I am not giving up and going to keep trying to tweak, just did not know if additional springs would be too hard on the gimbal. I have emailed them twice, and not getting any responses from there either - in fact I am finding the after sale support to be somewhat lacking.

 

I would not be opposed to getting back in there and adding two more springs, was thinking maybe adding two of the #20's might even help. But was hoping to get an answer first from VKB before I added any more. I will still continue to use it to give it a fair shake, just hope I can get a little closer to my liking.

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Posted (edited)

Even with 4x50 spring I couldn't get a decent centering with the soft cams with the extension.

And like Dburne, I found it hard to get a feel for when the stick is centered. 

These cams are probably worth it for helicopter simming. Not that great for aircrafts.

 

I don't think they need to redesign their soft cams, but to make some intermediate profiles, #20 or #25 for good centering but less marked center detent.

#30 are too stiff in the middle and too soft on the edges.

Edited by F/JG300_Gruber

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, F/JG300_Gruber said:

Even with 4x50 spring I couldn't get a decent centering with the soft cams with the extension.

And like Dburne, I found it hard to get a feel for when the stick is centered. 

These cams are probably worth it for helicopter simming. Not that great for aircrafts.

 

I don't think they need to redesign their soft cams, but to make some intermediate profiles, #20 or #25 for good centering but less marked center detent.

#30 are too stiff in the middle and too soft on the edges.

 

That is a little disappointing to hear, don't know that I want to go adding springs if it is still going to be that way.

And I know hard center I would not care for.

 

I will keep working with it , may try adding a touch on the clutch damper.

Only thing is have to take gimbal out, adjust those two clutch adjustments, put back together and test, rinse and repeat.

Edited by dburne

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, dburne said:

 

I will say I am finding the soft center cams for the Gunfighter to be way too soft for my taste. I have a larger area around center where I really feel no resistance, makes it very hard to even know when stick is center. Flew three missions in my Career this afternoon, and my flying/gunnery was not so great, at least as compared to what I had with the Virpil.  For my taste the feel of the Virpil with their soft center cams and soft springs was ideal. Obviously this is very much a personal preference.

 

I am not giving up and going to keep trying to tweak, just did not know if additional springs would be too hard on the gimbal. I have emailed them twice, and not getting any responses from there either - in fact I am finding the after sale support to be somewhat lacking.

 

I would not be opposed to getting back in there and adding two more springs, was thinking maybe adding two of the #20's might even help. But was hoping to get an answer first from VKB before I added any more. I will still continue to use it to give it a fair shake, just hope I can get a little closer to my liking.

 

For me, I love the soft lack of center. It doesn't bother me at all. It's like riding a bike or driving a car. I don't obsess whether or the steering wheel is straight or not. I just subconsciously adjust the wheel/handle to keep the vehicle pointing/going in the direction that I want. Similarly, I don't care where the control is positioned, but what it does. So the control is an extension of myself rather than part of the plane --- just like I don't worry whether or not my arm is centrally located exactly, I just push fwd/back/left/right to get it to go where I want. With the stick just an extension of your arm, if you think you need up, you pull back; want to roll a little left, pull left. In all cases, whether or not you cross the center is a purely academic question, a point of trivia that never really seems important at the time.

 

Above is just my 2c, and YMMW. And for full disclosure: I have never flown a real a/c in my life and compared to the many virtual experts in this world, suck in both flying and fighting in the virtual skies!

 

FWIW, though, having sat in a number of actual combat a/c cockpits in a couple of museums (also, my favorite so far, an F4 [EDIT: by which I mean the Phantom II, not the Wildcat]), I was surprised to find that the actual sticks not only have absolutely no discernible center, but were crazy loose. To the point that they could almost be described as floppy. But it is possible that these firm up quite a bit in the slipstream. Either way, though NO center.

Edited by Bearfoot
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4 hours ago, Bearfoot said:

 

FWIW, though, having sat in a number of actual combat a/c cockpits in a couple of museums (also, my favorite so far, an F4 [EDIT: by which I mean the Phantom II, not the Wildcat]), I was surprised to find that the actual sticks not only have absolutely no discernible center, but were crazy loose. To the point that they could almost be described as floppy. But it is possible that these firm up quite a bit in the slipstream. Either way, though NO center.

 

I don't know how it feel like with modern jet aircrafts with hydraulic actuators. But I would be surprised if the stick was crazy loose in flight.

 

For light planes with direct cable link, like you find in all aircrafts we have in the sim, it is the aerodynamic forces exercing on the control surfaces that are giving force feedback on the stick.

On the ground you have a noodle soft stick, in the air, it stiffens quite a lot. And usually the faster you go, the harder it gets.

 

What I've been trying to reproduce on the VKB is something similar in feel to the aircraft I'm used to fly IRL, and for this, the VKB cams aren't suited for the job. 

In a real aircraft it is really smooth in the center, no detent at all, but centering is firm, and move it even a centimeter away from the trimmed position and you will feel a noticeable force building up. And at the edges (well, on the roll axis at least, pulling hard on the elevator in what I fly is not something you want to do), the force on the stick is well above the maximum you can get on the Gunfighter pro.

 

And this is why I don't when there is no centering at all on joysticks, because in the aircrafts I fly, with direct controls, fly uncoordinated or forget to trim and in less than a minute your arm muscles will tell you that your flying is bad. With a soft joystick on a computer , just put the stick wherever it needs to be to fly straight and keep on with it. This is not what I'm looking for when buying expensive piece of equipment for the simulator. All the fuss is about perfect flight characteristics, visual effects and sounds because "whooa it's like to really be in there", yet the ONLY single thing in your whole setup that will give you a real physical feedback is the joystick. And if this one fails to provide an acceptable level of fidelity in the feeling you get while flying, the immersion factor is dropping quite a lot.

 

All this being said,  I do think that the only thing they need is to design an intermediate cam, with a center profile in between, and a bit more stiffening on the edges.

It still puzzles me that they came up with a hard and soft cams, but no medium.

  • Upvote 1

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, F/JG300_Gruber said:

In a real aircraft it is really smooth in the center, no detent at all, but centering is firm, and move it even a centimeter away from the trimmed position and you will feel a noticeable force building up. And at the edges (well, on the roll axis at least, pulling hard on the elevator in what I fly is not something you want to do), the force on the stick is well above the maximum you can get on the Gunfighter pro.

 

So, it seems that what is needed to replicate the feel is:

 

(1) No center detent; yet

(2) Very distinct/clear re-centering (return-to-center when released); plus

(3) Non-linear progressive tension, with strongly increasing resistance at extremes

 

 Would that be what you are looking for?

Edited by Bearfoot

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Posted (edited)

Pretty much.

 

I'm not sure about (3) though, it's hard to measure if force increase is linear or slightly curving up or down. It also depends on what plane you base your feeedback on. 

I wouldn't mind keeping a linear response in strength, but overall force needs to be increased to a bigger extent for sure (well, still keeping that bolt in the safe zone)

Edited by F/JG300_Gruber

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Bearfoot said:

For me, I love the soft lack of center. It doesn't bother me at all. It's like riding a bike or driving a car. I don't obsess whether or the steering wheel is straight or not. I just subconsciously adjust the wheel/handle to keep the vehicle pointing/going in the direction that I want. 

 

Yep but if You are going faster the steering wheel straightens up. And overcoming forces is your main "connection" to the machine. Try to ride a fast motobike the gyro effect straightens you up, you can ride straight without touching steering wheel. Its similar to flying a trimmed aircraft where You have only roll axis.

 

35 minutes ago, Bearfoot said:

(1) No center detent; yet

(2) Very distinct/clear re-centering (return-to-center when released); plus

(3) Non-linear progressive tension, with strongly increasing resistance at extremes

 

 Would that be what you are looking for?

 

Yes. I think You're right. Ad (2)- clear return to center. IMO without FFB You need to feel where the center is.

You need too feel You are trimmed or not.

Edited by Piekarz

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Posted (edited)

Update:

I checked with VKB and the maximum springs they recommend is #80 combined.

So I went in today and added one each of the #30 springs to the one each of #50 springs I have installed.

Whilst in there I dialed in just a slight amount on the clutch damper.

 

It feels so much better now, no more large slop area around center and I like the feel of the resistance as it moves to the extremes. I can actually easily tell now when I have the stick centered.

It is fairly stout at the far end of travel, I may in next day or two swap the #30 out with #20 just to see how that feels, no big rush though cause I am really liking it so much better now the way it is. But really how often would I even be moving the stick to the far end of travel ya know.

 

Now the feel of the axis to me is much more like what I have been used to with the Virpil T-50 with soft springs and soft center cams.

 

Eventually once I get some decent flight time in with the Gunfighter Pro, I am going to post a comparison of my thoughts on the Virpil and the VKB stick.

 

 

Edited by dburne

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Posted (edited)

@dburne - Did you stay with the #10 Cam or swap to the #30? I tore the base down this morning and I want to thank you for that tip of using zip ties to pull the springs instead of needle nose - way easier. I went with #50 springs and #30 cam - will see how that goes. I had never done anything like that before - was wary - VKB has a YouTube video - but I actually recommend this one if you've never tried it. It is in German, but it's covering the Gunfighter base not the Gladiator....  

 

Edited by gn728

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, gn728 said:

@dburne - Did you stay with the #10 Cam or swap to the #30? I tore the base down this morning and I want to thank you for that tip of using zip ties to pull the springs instead of needle nose - way easier. I went with #50 springs and #30 cam - will see how that goes. I had never done anything like that before - was wary - VKB has a YouTube video - but I actually recommend this one if you've never tried it. It is in German, but it's covering the Gunfighter base not the Gladiator....  

 

 

Yes I stayed with the #10 cam, I understand the #30 has a quite hard center and I really did not want that, just wanted more resistance around center so I knew when I was at center.

 

Thanks for the vid! I may swap out the #30 for the #20 springs in the morning just out of curiosity and then decide which of the two I will want to run.

I have a feeling I will likely be happiest with the #30's in there supplementing the #50's.

 

Yep zip ties are the only way to go for spring replacement, putting them on as well as taking them off.

 

One of the things Virpil did very well was in their spring design ( how they are installed), very easy. VKB gets the nod on the cam install process, whilst I have not replaced cams yet from looking at them and how they would be uninstalled, much better than Virpil. VKB cams also are very highly polished steel and smooth as a baby's butt, Virpil's can be a bit <cough> rough.

Edited by dburne

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36 minutes ago, dburne said:

VKB gets the nod on the cam install process, whilst I have not replaced cams yet from looking at them and how they would be uninstalled, much better than Virpil.

 

I actually removed my cams when I was installing the #50 springs, because I didn't know about the zip tie trick and was having a terrible time trying to install them with needle-nose pliers. It wasn't anything too difficult.

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