Mission editor discussion

[The-Doctor]

Since it’s a general discussion about the ME, idk if this issue has been addressed before 

 

i wanted to share ideas with guys here , i know that there is a lot on developers plate Right now 

 

but is there any future plans to simplify the ME much more , 

 

i used to make missions in another “modern Sim” and it was really easy to make any genre of missions 

 

 

Most of the difficulties is regarding small technicalities such as : 

1- map designing e.g. ( borders , military position icons , advancing or defending lines and arrows ) 

 

 

also i’m having a hard time making a big scale missions , too much links comparing to other MEs 

 

 

 

[Gambit21]

No, the mission editor is what it is and will not change - I can speak with some authority on that one.

Once you get a handle on the logic you wouldn't want it any simpler.

 

 

[The-Doctor]

1 minute ago, Gambit21 said:

No, the mission editor is what it is and will not change - I can speak with some authority on that one.

Once you get a handle on the logic you wouldn't want it any simpler.

 

 

thanks mate , seems that i have to dedicate more time for studying it , 

[Gambit21]

Once you realize that's it's just daisy-chained triggers, and pretty much anything can trigger anything else, you'll be able to do anything you can think of.

I built some very complex missions long before I completely understood everything, just pasting in groups I borrowed from others.

It will click, just stick with it.

[CanadaOne]

The developer's tool included in BOX is, regardless of the enthusiasm of the few who use it, either a tragedy or a travesty. It is joyless, unintuitive, inconvenient, and anachronistic. And I'll bet the percentage of players who use it is low by any standard.

 

Given that this game approaches its fourth iteration, one can only hope that the glaring, indeed incomprehensible, lack of a user friendly FMB will be addressed.

[The-Doctor]

2 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Once you realize that's it's just daisy-chained triggers, and pretty much anything can trigger anything else, you'll be able to do anything you can think of.

I built some very complex missions long before I completely understood everything, just pasting in groups I borrowed from others.

It will click, just stick with it.

thanks for the advice , i'll start with that . 

your time is appreciated my friend 

[Gambit21]

1 minute ago, CanadaOne said:

The developer's tool included in BOX is, regardless of the enthusiasm of the few who use it, either a tragedy or a travesty. It is joyless, unintuitive, inconvenient, and anachronistic. And I'll bet the percentage of players who use it is low by any standard.

 

Given that this game approaches its fourth iteration, one can only hope that the glaring, indeed incomprehensible, lack of a user friendly FMB will be addressed.

 

It won't be, the editor is not going to change.

It's also, ironically the OPPOSITE of anachronistic, since no editor has existed like this before in any other simulator.

Having learned it, I woudn't trade it for the old editor which I used quite extensively.

 

You can tell someone who hasn't spent much time with it, because they complain about the things that actually are NOT the problem.

 

[The-Doctor]

One last thing guys , is there any titorials regarding how to draw icons and borders on the map ?

[CanadaOne]

Just now, Gambit21 said:

 

It won't be, the editor is not going to change.

It's also, ironically the OPPOSITE of anachronistic, since no editor has existed like this before in any other simulator.

Having learned it, I woudn't trade it for the old editor which I used quite extensively.

 

You can tell someone who hasn't spent much time with it, because they complain about the things that actually are NOT the problem.

 

 

That the editor is not going to change is flat out ridiculous. It is unused and all but unusable, I believe, for the majority of players. And I think a survey would show that to be the case. As has been stated before - and not just by me  - I've been flying and making missions for 20 years. In BOX, I make almost no missions at all. Why? It's no fun.

 

The developer's tool (I believe Jason referred to it as just that) is absolutely anachronistic. That you have to go in and out of the game to use it is the very definition of anachronistic. A proper user friendly FMB  - something which pre-exists the lives of some BOX flyers I'll wager - allows the player to choose the level of complexity he wishes. He can pop in, place an object and a plane, pop out and be flying in seconds. And then build on that again and again, making it more complex as he goes along, but never having the close the game and open a separate program each time he wants to add one single object.

 

A FMB should empower the player and bring him into the game because he can have fun with it. In that light, the BOX developer's tool is a failure.

 

 

[Gambit21]

We disagree, but we've been over this in multiple threads.

By the way I can place a flight and be flying in seconds...it's quite simple.

Plus you can place groups that are already assembled by others, and never EVER had to build that logic from scratch yourself, so there's really no excuse...but I've pointed that out in multiple threads as well.

[JimTM]

1 hour ago, =RS=BlackRaven said:

One last thing guys , is there any titorials regarding how to draw icons and borders on the map ?

 

See "Mark Locations and Draw Shapes on the Flight Crew's Map" on pg. 151 of the IL-2 Sturmovik Mission Editor and Multiplayer Server Manual.

 

See more mission editor resources here and here.

Edited July 1, 2018 by JimTM

[CanadaOne]

10 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

We disagree, but we've been over this in multiple threads.

By the way I can place a flight and be flying in seconds...it's quite simple.

Plus you can place groups that are already assembled by others, and never EVER had to build that logic from scratch yourself, so there's really no excuse...but I've pointed that out in multiple threads as well.

 

Yes, we have been over this before. And given that the developer's tool, as you have said, will not be changed and we will not get an in-game user friendly FMB, the kind that had existed for decades in other flightsims, BOX will continue to be neither as good as it could be or should be. 

 

The simple fact(s) is that the developers tool is no fun to use. It's out of the game and it's a Rube Goldberg device that only the minority use or are apt to use. I would like to see the numbers, but I'm certain there are many who, like myself, used to make lots of missions in other sims who make none in this sim. That is not the fault of the player. It is the fault of the "FMB" design. 

 

BOX is excellent in a dozen ways. The "FMB" is absolutely not one of them. 

[CanadaOne]

There's a Complaints Department here?

 

Well, this is as good a place as any for a discussion about the included developer's tool.

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, CanadaOne said:

I'm certain there are many who, like myself, used to make lots of missions in other sims who make none in this sim. That is not the fault of the player. It is the fault of the "FMB" design. 

 

No - it comes down to each individual player and whether they want to invest some time and get "over the hump" or moan about it and just complain that it's not as easy as the old one. Again for all the time you've spent complaining you could have built a nice learning mission. You seem to be fond of ignoring my point about pasting in groups that are available and just motor on like you never heard it.

 

Yeah it takes a bit of brains, but you're no dummy.

[Thad]

Please download the editor and mission building manuals available. Afterwards, one must 'Learn By Doing' with the Mission Editor.  ?

[Gambit21]

What? You mean actually utilize all the help that’s available and put some time in?

 

[Thad]

Yes. Call me impetuous or crazy but if found that these manuals actually helped me learn how to use the editor. Amazing right?

 

I was confused and very frustrated when I first attempted to use the ME. I thought the mission editor was a cruel trick foisted on unsuspecting noobs.

 

I finally downloaded Pranksters Guide and worked my way though every example in it. All the while trying to understand the logic involved. It was a revelation. I can now create missions whenever I want. I'm still learning all of the ME capabilities. I meant what I said earlier.... one can 'learn by doing'. 

 

I'm not confused and frustrated anymore. ?

[DeadMeat0383]

@Gambit21 I think you might be missing the point people are trying to get across, What people are trying to explain is that while the mission editor is powerful and once you "get over the hump" as has been said it makes sense, what others are trying to say is that it isn't new user friendly, its not intuitive. You can't open it up without ever having used it before and fumble through making a simple mission.

Because you understand the logic of it you have no problems with it and cant see the problem others are trying to point out.

What of the people who are new to the game and want to make themselves a basic mission? What of the people who have just bought the game and want to go "Oh I want this airfield to have x number of z planes, and I want x number of y planes patrolling the front lines for me to intercept and destroy", the current developer tool (mission editor) does not allow that without a steep initial learning curve.

Just trying to point out where people are coming from, and yes you can get over the hump by reading through guides etc. but not everyone has the time or inclination to do that.

If something is not easy to pick up without having to read a detailed instruction manual then it is not user friendly.

[Gambit21]

With respect that point is not lost on me, nor was it ever from square one.

My point was the amount of time Canada has invested in complaining vs using that time to learn the editor.

 

How do you think we all made our first mission with it if "You can't open it up without ever having used it before and fumble through making a simple mission" is a true statement? The fact of the matter is that this is exactly what you do. 

Its what I did, looking at Prangster's guide.

 

The reality is that the editor logic is not that hard to grasp - and again you don't have even have to grasp it to begin making simple missions as there are groups available that you can paste in. 

 

Is it intuitive? No. Is it as easy to grasp as the old editor? No.

On the the other hand for a bit of time investment you get a vastly more powerful editor.

 

 

 

[JimTM]

4 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

...

My point was the amount of time Canada has invested in complaining vs using that time to learn the editor.

...

 

I'd like to complain about the idea that all we do up here in Canada is complain...eh!   

[Thad]

5 hours ago, JimTM said:

 

I'd like to complain about the idea that all we do up here in Canada is complain...eh!   

Quit complaining. ?

[IckyATLAS]

On 7/1/2018 at 4:13 AM, Gambit21 said:

 

It won't be, the editor is not going to change.

It's also, ironically the OPPOSITE of anachronistic, since no editor has existed like this before in any other simulator.

Having learned it, I woudn't trade it for the old editor which I used quite extensively.

 

You can tell someone who hasn't spent much time with it, because they complain about the things that actually are NOT the problem.

 

I agree that this editor is compared to others much better. It allows to organize the dynamics of many intertwined events in a clear logical way. Yes complex missions can get very much cluttered and this needs organization, and structuring.

I admit that you need to do a small effort at the beginning to learn the logic and the forums help a lot, but this is true for any software tool.  But say after a few hours you can build very complex missions with ease, using tanks, trains, planes you name it. The only thing is that I would have liked to have more building material, I mean a much richer library of 3d models of objects, soldiers,  etc. etc.. I made a post on that long ago.

 

[Gambit21]

Yep!

 

[CanadaOne]

On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 5:25 PM, Gambit21 said:

My point was the amount of time Canada has invested in complaining vs using that time to learn the editor.

 

 

 

 

 

My complaints are warranted. I've been sim flying for twenty-years and I'm familiar with how flightsims work and have evolved. This developer's tool is an unintuitive, inconvenient, and joyless exercise in frustration for the average player.

 

But aside from that, yes, I'm sure it's fantastic.

[Sketch]

47 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

 

My complaints are warranted. I've been sim flying for twenty-years and I'm familiar with how flightsims work and have evolved. This developer's tool is an unintuitive, inconvenient, and joyless exercise in frustration for the average player.

 

But aside from that, yes, I'm sure it's fantastic.

All I hear is a person who doesn't want to learn and grow. You have a closed mindset and others have pointed it out to you multiple times. Let us that want to learn and develop missions do so with the very powerful editor that is clearly too frustrating for you. When you're ready, there are countless resources out there to learn the editor. And if you have questions, post them in the editor forums and we'll be happy to help you.

Edited July 11, 2018 by [TWB]Sketch

[Thad]

1 hour ago, CanadaOne said:

This developer's tool is an unintuitive, inconvenient, and joyless exercise in frustration for the average player.

 

Yes, it is, for the 'average player'. ?

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, CanadaOne said:

 

My complaints are warranted. I've been sim flying for twenty-years and I'm familiar with how flightsims work and have evolved. This developer's tool is an unintuitive, inconvenient, and joyless exercise in frustration for the average player.

 

So don’t be ‘average’ - be willing to learn and accept help.

 

You’ve (and I’m being serious) spent more energy complaining/typing about than it takes to learn basic mission setup.

 

 

 

 

[CanadaOne]

9 hours ago, [TWB]Sketch said:

All I hear is a person who doesn't want to learn and grow. You have a closed mindset and others have pointed it out to you multiple times. Let us that want to learn and develop missions do so with the very powerful editor that is clearly too frustrating for you. When you're ready, there are countless resources out there to learn the editor. And if you have questions, post them in the editor forums and we'll be happy to help you.

 

I am in no way questioning the friendliness and patience of the people here. I give you and them full credit for being a good bunch of guys and helping others out. I have nothing bad to say about you and them, and everything good to say.

 

It's the lack of a user friendly, in-game FMB, like the kind that has existed for years and years, that I take issue with. That the game comes without something that has been standard for years, and has in its place a developer's tool that wasn't even meant to be released at all, shows that something is missing.

 

It seems odd to me, in the extreme, that we might soon be at a point where many players have spent north of $300 or $400 on game modules, and a crucial part of the game has yet to be brought up to snuff; meaning there is not an in-game user friendly FMB as has existed in other flightsims for years and years and years. I mean, I think the last time I opened the editor up, after I turned the game off of course, I realized (correct me if I am wrong) the map had no buildings on it. I had to copy and paste a file to put the basic buildings onto the map.

 

Pardon me, but that's ridiculous. It's 2018, not 1998.

[SYN_Haashashin]

@CanadaOne: I have told you several times already. Stop spreading negativity in these forums.

 

We all know what you think of the FMB and no matter how many times you say it things won't change for now. Several members of this forum find your spamming about the FMB tiresome and annoying. You use any opportunity to spread negativity about the FMB even derailing topics such as the DCS news one.

 

Next time I will make sure you don't do that again. 

 

Also this been a complaint subsection doesn't mean you can attack the devs or their work.

 

Haash

[THERION]

[edited]

 

Rule 2 and 6.

Edited July 11, 2018 by SYN_Haashashin