Tank Crew

[unreasonable]

The numbers of Tigers available at Prokhorovka are well documented: a summary here for example.   http://www.angelfire.com/wi2/foto/ww2/proh/page4.html

 

You can see that on 11th July the SS Panzer Corps - the German unit involved in the battle, had a grand total of 15 operational, of which LAH, the division that faced the main Soviet tank attack, had all of 4!   Most of the rest were undergoing repair - which is where most Tigers seem to have spent most of the war.

 

Normandy was no different. I doubt there were ever 45 operational Tigers in Normandy, never mind in one place.  

[Eicio]

15 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

Normandy was no different. I doubt there were ever 45 operational Tigers in Normandy, never mind in one place.  

 

Never said the contruary, I was saying that eastern front would be a pretty straightforward battlefield with no tanks appearing magically in your back.

[Legioneod]

24 minutes ago, Eicio said:

 

The problem is that this is the eastern front and not Normandy so , except for an ambush, you will face the ennemy and generaly at distance, moreover flanking isn't done that easy like war thunder and you most likely won't surprise anybody since a tank isn't the most stealthy thing and tanks aren't doing their things alone.

 

However since the dev included the su-122 and su-152we can guess that HE damage on armored will be modeled so the question is: could a bunch of 76mm canons loaded with HE shells could, not destroy but at least disable a Tiger or a Panter or softened it's armor ?

76mm HE wont do much damage to a Tiger or Panther or any armoured Tank for that matter. HE can disable tracks and might cause some spalling but it's not gonna kill a tank. 152 HE on the other hand will certainly kill a tank no matter how heavy it is.

 

Also, I know flanking will be difficult but unlike warthunder we will have a much more limit situational awareness and won't be able to spot things as easily as in war thunder, and if you're taking fire you're going to be buttoned up which will further limit your visibility.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Legioneod

[unreasonable]

6 minutes ago, Eicio said:

 

Never said the contruary, I was saying that eastern front would be a pretty straightforward battlefield with no tanks appearing magically in your back.

 

I was really replying to Roflseal's post about the heavy tank battalion Orbat.   However, by using low ground, dust, smoke and artillery barrages good tank commanders are perfectly capable of popping up unexpectedly, at least on a flank if not magically at your back.  Mk IIIs and even IVs need to get fairly close (ie inside 500m) to kill T-34s with only a few shots. This is not just about penetration: first you have to score hits.  In defense, Tigers might be able to sit back and pop away at such a long range that they are fairly safe from return fire, but that is not true of 90% of the German tanks, at least those in the real battle.  

[Eicio]

57 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

 

Also, I know flanking will be difficult but unlike warthunder we will have a much more limit situational awareness and won't be able to spot things as easily as in war thunder, and if you're taking fire you're going to be buttoned up which will further limit your visibility.

 

Tanks aren"t supposed to spot, that's more the job of the infantry and the reco team but I see what you mean, beside I didn't say that 75mm HE were able to kill a tank, I was wondering if a lot of HE shells shot at a single tank could damage it at some point or weaken it's armor.

[Legioneod]

51 minutes ago, Eicio said:

 

Tanks aren"t supposed to spot, that's more the job of the infantry and the reco team but I see what you mean, beside I didn't say that 75mm HE were able to kill a tank, I was wondering if a lot of HE shells shot at a single tank could damage it at some point or weaken it's armor.

You're better off just using AP. AP hitting the same spot over and over again will gouge out the armor and weaken that spot, however hitting the same spot is very difficult so you really just need to flank or aim for the frontal weak spots if it has one. 

[LukeFF]

59 minutes ago, Eicio said:

Tanks aren"t supposed to spot, that's more the job of the infantry and the reco team but I see what you mean

 

There is a reason why tank commanders rode unbuttoned and were issued binoculars, and it wasn't because they wanted to look good for the cameras.

[Finkeren]

6 hours ago, RoflSeal said:

You are forgetting that the heavy tanks were concentrated where the action is heaviest for maximum decisive effect, "sprinkled" is an incorrect term. The British didn't meet German tanks on the morning of Operation Goodwood on 18th July with the ratio of 6:4:3:1 PzIV, Panther, StuG, Tiger which was the ratio of overall in the Normandy campaign, but 2:3 PzIV, Tiger.

 

A Heavy Tank Battalion in 1944 has 45 Tigers, not mostly Panzers IVs with a sprinkling of Tigers.

 

Obviously there are exceptions, Sherman Jumbos were dispersed throughout numerous units and were used a lot as convoy lead tanks due to their heavy armour.

 

The thing is: At Prokhorovka there never were that many Tigers or Panthers, so it really didn’t matter how much you concentrated them. IIRC there was an attempt at one (1) larger assault using Panthers en masse, and it stalled when they tried to cross a shallow stream and got water in the transmission, effectively putting the Panthers out of action for he rest of the battle and making sure they had no further impact on the offensive. The Ferdinand’s fate at Kursk is well known too.

 

For the setting the devs have chosen, there really is no basis for more than a “sprinkling” of the heavy ones Tiger, Panther, Ferdinand and Su-152.

 

 

[Legioneod]

5 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

 

The thing is: At Prokhorovka there never were that many Tigers or Panthers, so it really didn’t matter how much you concentrated them. IIRC there was an attempt at one (1) larger assault using Panthers en masse, and it stalled when they tried to cross a shallow stream and got water in the transmission, effectively putting the Panthers out of action for he rest of the battle and making sure they had no further impact on the offensive. The Ferdinand’s fate at Kursk is well known too.

 

For the setting the devs have chosen, there really is no basis for more than a “sprinkling” of the heavy ones Tiger, Panther, Ferdinand and Su-152.

 

 

At the end of the day it's going to be up to the server owner to decide how many of each tank is available.

 

The weakness that the Panthers and Ferdinands faced won't be modeled ingame so things are going to play out a bit differently imo.

[csThor]

@ Finkeren

 

Are you talking perhaps about the initial assault of 'Großdeutschland' on Tomarovka Cherkasskoye on July 5 1943? If so then I really suggest you get yourself George Nipe's "Blood, Steel and Myth" as it does away with a few urban myths, particularly About the Panther's "inauspicious" combat debut. Because, contrary to what Strachwitz claimed afterwards the Panthers had not even reached their assembly area by the time his own armored Kampfgruppe was trying to get across the swampy balka - it were Strachwitz's own tanks which got stuck there.

Edited July 2, 2018 by csThor

[Finkeren]

31 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

At the end of the day it's going to be up to the server owner to decide how many of each tank is available.

 

Onviously, but it would be a huge mistake on the part of the server to allow unlimited Panthers and Tigers, especially if it also allows for even number of players on the teams. That will completely and utterly destroy MP from the get go. The Soviet side has nothing but strength in numbers and (to a certain degree) mobility going for it. 

 

The interesting (and historical) match-up of T-34 vs. PzKw IV should be at the center of MP action. Nothing else makes sense.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Snipers, is TC going to have snipers ?

 

If I recall, and maybe more of a Western Front thing, most tank crew casualties were tank commanders, sticking their ed's out of the lid.  Tank commanders, especially, should face dangers beyond just waiting until they spot an enemy tank.

 

Ironically, given the danger, I don't recall seeing many pictures where tank commanders are wearing tin lids ( helmets), leather crash helmets possibly, but not tin lids.

[Finkeren]

1 minute ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

 

Ironically, given the danger, I don't recall seeing many pictures where tank commanders are wearing tin lids ( helmets), leather crash helmets possibly, but not tin lids.

 

A question of ergonomics once you are forced to button up and get inside, I’d wager.

30 minutes ago, csThor said:

@ Finkeren

 

Are you talking perhaps about the initial assault of 'Großdeutschland' on Tomarovka on July 5 1943? If so then I really suggest you get yourself George Nipe's "Blood, Steel and Myth" as it does away with a few urban myths, particularly About the Panther's "inauspicious" combat debut. Because, contrary to what Strachwitz claimed afterwards the Panthers had not even reached their assembly area by the time his own armored Kampfgruppe was trying to get across the swampy balka - it were Strachwitz's own tanks which got stuck there.

 

Maybe it’s a myth - widespread enough for people like Glanz to mention it though - but is there any indication that the Panthers saw significant action en masse during the campaign?

[Garven]

14 minutes ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

Snipers, is TC going to have snipers ?

 

If I recall, and maybe more of a Western Front thing, most tank crew casualties were tank commanders, sticking their ed's out of the lid.  Tank commanders, especially, should face dangers beyond just waiting until they spot an enemy tank.

 

Ironically, given the danger, I don't recall seeing many pictures where tank commanders are wearing tin lids ( helmets), leather crash helmets possibly, but not tin lids.

Steel infantry helmets generally can't stop bullets.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Actually, now that I look, there were indeed specific tin lids, for British tank crew, ( replaced earlier fiber crash helmets).  I wonder how often they were worn and what part bravado, and fashion,  played it's part or as most photo's are non combat that informs a false perception of what tankies wore in the face of the enemy.  I can't readily conjor an image of Soviet tank crew but the one I have of German tank crew doesn't show helmets either but that might also be a question of propaganda and publicity photo's rather than actuality.

5 minutes ago, US103_Furlow said:

Steel infantry helmets generally can't stop bullets.

 

That would be to suggest every shot was perfect, that said it could have, rightly or wrongly, informed an attitude or logic behind non- use.

Edited July 2, 2018 by HagarTheHorrible

[LLv24_SukkaVR]

Does Tank Crew require BoS, BoM, BoK or BoBP in order to play it or does it work as a standalone like the other titles?

[Finkeren]

Just now, NahkaSukka said:

Does Tank Crew require BoS, BoM, BoK or BoBP in order to play it or does it work as a standalone like the other titles?

 

It will be standalone, but fully integrated with the rest - just like all other Great Battles titles.

[Legioneod]

1 hour ago, Finkeren said:

 

Onviously, but it would be a huge mistake on the part of the server to allow unlimited Panthers and Tigers, especially if it also allows for even number of players on the teams. That will completely and utterly destroy MP from the get go. The Soviet side has nothing but strength in numbers and (to a certain degree) mobility going for it. 

 

The interesting (and historical) match-up of T-34 vs. PzKw IV should be at the center of MP action. Nothing else makes sense.

 

I agree but we shouldn't limit the Tigers or Panthers to just one or two, we're gonna need to find a good balance.

 

1 hour ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

Snipers, is TC going to have snipers ?

 

If I recall, and maybe more of a Western Front thing, most tank crew casualties were tank commanders, sticking their ed's out of the lid.  Tank commanders, especially, should face dangers beyond just waiting until they spot an enemy tank.

 

Ironically, given the danger, I don't recall seeing many pictures where tank commanders are wearing tin lids ( helmets), leather crash helmets possibly, but not tin lids.

British tankers didnt wear helmets from what I remember, American tankers wore helmets a majority of the time, it's one of the reasons British tankers suffered more casualties than Americans did. Indeed most of the casualties were due to head injuries but irrc it was mostly from spalling or hits to the tank and not bullets.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Legioneod

[Finkeren]

3 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

 

I agree but we shouldn't limit the Tigers or Panthers to just one or two, we're gonna need to find a good balance.

 

A balance needs to be struck, yes, but I honestly think it’ll be closer to 1-2 than you think. 1 in 5 German tanks being a Panther or Tiger is already too much IMHO.

[LLv44_Mprhead]

about helmets https://www.quora.com/Did-WW2-Tankers-wear-steel-helmets-over-their-tank-helmets

 

about balance in MP, depending on terrain mobility of t-34 can be deciding factor and more so when we can't for example limit the possibilities for communication. But as I said depends quite a lot on terrain.

[Finkeren]

9 minutes ago, LLv44_Mprhead said:

 

about balance in MP, depending on terrain mobility of t-34 can be deciding factor and more so when we can't for example limit the possibilities for communication. But as I said depends quite a lot on terrain.

 

T-34s will still need superiority in numbers regardless.

 

I would love to have more realistic radio comms tbh. It wouldn’t just mean disadvantage for the Red Army, it would completely change tactics. German radios won’t work either, if there is a big hill or a forest between you and your team mates.

[LLv44_Mprhead]

24 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

 

T-34s will still need superiority in numbers regardless.

 

I would love to have more realistic radio comms tbh. It wouldn’t just mean disadvantage for the Red Army, it would completely change tactics. German radios won’t work either, if there is a big hill or a forest between you and your team mates.

 

Against Tigers and Panthers yes. It will be interesting to see how it works out with pz IV as both of them have some advantages. About realistic radio comms I would really like to see them too for the reasons you mentioned. One of my dreams is simulator where armored recon cars are actually useful (than and good torpedo boat simulator )

[csThor]

2 hours ago, Finkeren said:

Maybe it’s a myth - widespread enough for people like Glanz to mention it though - but is there any indication that the Panthers saw significant action en masse during the campaign?

 

I'll have to dig out the book from storage but I know what you're getting at. It's a historical fact, however, that the Panthers were all concentrated in Panzerbrigade 10 and were subordinated to "Grossdeutschland" Division. If there is a sector where they could have been present it's with GD. Just saying.

[ATA_Vasilij]

I am looking forward to hitting the trees. The missile explodes on the trunk of the tree and wood chips will fly all around.

Cutting and destroying the trees by the missiles, trunks on the two halves, trees and wooden chips on the place of explosions.

Impossibility to shoot through the woods, those are things I really want to have in Tank crew.

 

Second point I wonna say. If tanks are better modeld, and damage model will be improved, If firing through the woods will not be possible anymore and if you can choose whether you go into the tank, into the AAA, or into the planes. Into the planes with the same quality as BOS have now, SO THEN I predict HUGE future to the Tank Crew. And I say that this title will replace the current BOX series, in amount of players and in amount of interest.

 

 

[Thad]

5 hours ago, csThor said:

 

I'll have to dig out the book from storage but I know what you're getting at. It's a historical fact, however, that the Panthers were all concentrated in Panzerbrigade 10 and were subordinated to "Grossdeutschland" Division. If there is a sector where they could have been present it's with GD. Just saying.

Salutations,

 

There have to be tables of organization TOs for each armies units, be they battalions, regiments etc.

 

I doubt mission designers will be fielding battle units over battalion size total. The current computers most likely can't handle any larger such engagements, fps wise. With the current armor assets I have created tank battles of approximately reinforced company size for each side and the FPS often drops into the 30s on my system (2560x1080).That's still very playable of course.

 

The image attached is the base template I use for limiting my battalion size battles (sans any air support). It is just the example I use. Actual battalion TO could be discovered and used to guide us in future mission building unit type limitations. Including those running Multi Player servers.

 

NOTE: I normally don't include any Maintenance Section, Headquarters or Engineer units.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Thad
Clarification

[Eicio]

11 hours ago, LukeFF said:

There is a reason why tank commanders rode unbuttoned and were issued binoculars, and it wasn't because they wanted to look good for the cameras.

 

I knew there would be someone to make a funny word but tigers were rarely sent alone and blind into ennemy territories, they were sent where they could make the difference and thus a reco job has to be done before. They used their binoculars when someone told them that there were ennemy activities nearby.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Eicio

[Porkins]

16 hours ago, Legioneod said:

 

The bulge would be really nice, we could even just have a list of German and Allied tanks that way we could pretty much recreate the campaigns on the Bodenplatte map from Market Garden all the way into 1945.

 

M4A3E2 (75 or 76 since nothing really changed in the turret all they did was install a new gun)

M4A3E8 76mm

Sherman Firefly

M10 or M36

Churchill or some other British Tank.

 

Panther A

Tiger II

Jagdpanther or Jagdtiger

Stug

Any other German Tank (can't really think of many more)

 

And we can use all the current tanks in the German lineup. 

If late war Western Front armor is your jam, you might want to check out Post Scriptum. It's meant to be a recreation of the Arnhem battles. Combined arms, 50 v 50 MP only servers, infantry and armor (no user controlled planes). In terms of realism, I'd say it's somewhere between War Thunder and IL-2. Armor values and angles will be modeled, interiors at this unfinished state look really well done. Here's a picture of all the vehicles in game: 

Made by the same team that does Squad. 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Porkins

[bubo942]

7 hours ago, Finkeren said:

 

T-34s will still need superiority in numbers regardless.

 

I would love to have more realistic radio comms tbh. It wouldn’t just mean disadvantage for the Red Army, it would completely change tactics. German radios won’t work either, if there is a big hill or a forest between you and your team mates.

I think numbers of Panther and Tiger will be limited as well as SU-152 . I'm personally waiting for PZ IV G  which is still capable to destroy both T-34 ,KV-1 and still survive .

Edited July 2, 2018 by bubo942

[unreasonable]

1 hour ago, Thad said:

Salutations,

 

There have to be tables of organization TOs for each armies units, be they battalions, regiments etc.

 

 

 

Sure - this one has a good data base of original TOEs.  http://www.niehorster.org/index.htm

 

There is also http://www.panzergrenadier.org/ which is a pain to find your way around but has good chronological account of the changes in organization of various German units through the war. 

 

One thing to remember though is that apart from at the very start of phases of operations after units had been rested and brought up to strength, military units hardly ever had anything close to establishment, what with casualties, break-downs and detatchments. The Germans especially were very used to operating in ad-hoc battle groups of whatever was available in anything from platoon to divisional strength,  so the TOEs should just be a rough guide indicating an ideal.

[Fliegel]

1 minute ago, Porkins said:

Made by the same team that does Squad. 

It is build from Squad game but the team is different.
It looks good and I do plan to play it. Though the fact they included the Cromwell I (6pdr) and not some that actually saw combat (with 75mm)...  

So when it comes to tanks, I rather hope the Tank Crew will be success and we will see also the western front than play PS because of tanks. It is infantry game.

[=ARTOA=Bombenleger]

On 7/1/2018 at 5:19 AM, Eicio said:

 

And the sherman, well... obsolete tank

 

[Porkins]

To the OP's question about what other theaters we'd like to see, I'd love to see a North Africa game. I'd also like such a game to include more light AFV representation, as they tend to be underrepresented in games. Their role of scouting and communicating were a vital component to armored operations. A lineup might look like:

 

Germans:

 

Panzer III

Panzer IV

Stug (short barrel) 

Flak 88

222

 

Tiger (collector) 

 

British:

 

Sherman (75mm)

Matilda

Crusader 

6 Pounder

AEC Armored Car

 

Churchill (collector)

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, Eicio said:

They used their binoculars when someone told them that there were ennemy activities nearby.

 

...and when they were halted and looking for contacts. 

[csThor]

@Porkins

 

Well, there were ever only four StuG III Ausf. D in North Africa so they're not exactly representative for the North African Campaign.

 

@Thad

 

What you have as OOB was no longer official standard at Kursk. Makeup and Vehicle Counts were revised with a new KSTN (Kriegsstärkenachweis) dated February 1943. The difference between light and medium platoons fell away (as the Panzer II had been relegated to recon duties and Panzer III and IV were no longer in different categories) as did the numerical difference between platoons with Panzer III (5 tanks) and Panzer IV (previously 4 tanks, since that reorganization they also were set to 5 tanks).

Edited July 2, 2018 by csThor

[Porkins]

21 minutes ago, csThor said:

@Porkins

 

Well, there were ever only four StuG III Ausf. D in North Africa so they're not exactly representative for the North African Campaign.

 

@Thad

 

What you have as OOB was no longer official standard at Kursk. Makeup and Vehicle Counts were revised with a new KSTN (Kriegsstärkenachweis) dated February 1943. The difference between light and medium platoons fell away (as the Panzer II had been relegated to recon duties and Panzer III and IV were no longer in different categories) as did the numerical difference between platoons with Panzer III (5 tanks) and Panzer IV (previously 4 tanks, since that reorganization they also were set to 5 tanks).

It's a stretch, I admit. I was just struggling to think of a third German "tank" that served in that theater during the Tobruk/El Alamein time period. The Panzer II was there, but it would be completely outclassed against that Allied lineup. I guess the Marder II would be another candidate...

 

I made the Tiger and Churchill collectors because neither served in NA until  later in the war. 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Porkins

[Thad]

Salutations,

 

I never claimed that what I presented was an official OOB standard. I stated that I used it as a base template (example) for reference in my tank mission creations. 

 

Actually, I would appreciate such graphic presentations of the actual German and Russian Battalion OOBs for future mission building reference. By war year preferably. Please post images or site addresses where I can obtain said copies. Thanks.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Thad
Clarification

[csThor]

@Thad

 

Osprey has an OOB Series on the Panzer Divisions that contains exactly what you want. The series contains 3 books (1939-1940, 1941-1943 and 1944-1945) and details all KSTN (in text and graphics) as well as makes comments on how specific divisions deviated from the standards (and boy, deviate they did quite often).

 

Here's a sample:

 

[Thad]

Oh yea, that looks great. I'll check them out. Thanks. 

[Legioneod]

4 hours ago, Porkins said:

If late war Western Front armor is your jam, you might want to check out Post Scriptum. It's meant to be a recreation of the Arnhem battles. Combined arms, 50 v 50 MP only servers, infantry and armor (no user controlled planes). In terms of realism, I'd say it's somewhere between War Thunder and IL-2. Armor values and angles will be modeled, interiors at this unfinished state look really well done. Here's a picture of all the vehicles in game: 

Made by the same team that does Squad. 

 

I plan on getting it eventually but I'm more interested in American armor, Post Scriptum focuses on the British armor. Also the interiors of the tanks aren't fully modeled as far as I know.

2 hours ago, Porkins said:

To the OP's question about what other theaters we'd like to see, I'd love to see a North Africa game. I'd also like such a game to include more light AFV representation, as they tend to be underrepresented in games. Their role of scouting and communicating were a vital component to armored operations. A lineup might look like:

 

Germans:

 

Panzer III

Panzer IV

Stug (short barrel) 

Flak 88

222

 

Tiger (collector) 

 

British:

 

Sherman (75mm)

Matilda

Crusader 

6 Pounder

AEC Armored Car

 

Churchill (collector)

 

Not much changed in the Tiger throughout its lifetime so the Tiger we are getting with Tank Crew could also be used for a North Africa scenario.

 

Battle of the Bulge, Market Garden, etc. would be easier to start with due to the fact that we are already getting the map with those areas in it. I've also read that the devs don't want to go to NA because of CloD doing it. Plus you'd have to have a planeset as well for support, Bodenplatte is getting all of this so it would be "easier" to just expand Tank Crew into Bodenplatte.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

If TC next expansion is Battle of the Bulge and offers the same time frame as BoBP line ups could be

M4A3E2 (with 76mm gun as a mod)
M4A3, the devs can go wild with this as the late hulled version could hold both the 75mm turret and 76mm gun turret, post Battle of the Bulge up-armor and machine gun package, HVSS suspension and even add 90mm gun in M36 turret to represent the ~200 or so M36B1 (M36 turrets mounted on M4A3 hulls)
M18 Hellcat
Then to represent the British and their actions at the river Meuse

Sherman IC Firefly (as far as I am aware, composite hulled Shermans were mostly set aside for 17pdr conversion IIRC)

Churchill VII

 

And Germans could be 

Panther Ausf. G (chin mantlet as mod)

Tiger II (both turrets possibly)

Jagdpanther

Jagdpanzer IV

Jagdpanzer 38t

 

Though I admit these line-ups focus heavily on the battle and after it to march 1945, the preceeding operation, including Market Garden is neglected, but then again, Market Garden was not really a tank-heavy operation and focused on infantry and Paratroopers.

Edited July 2, 2018 by RoflSeal