Bombers in MP

[Porkins]

Flying bombers in multiplayer is not for the faint hearted. Flying a bomber makes you an instant target, and you really can't rely on air cover from your comrades who are busy dog fighting. That means that bomber trips are often one way. I thought I would rate the survive ability of bombers (not fighter bombers), based on my fake combat experience.

 

From Best to Worst:

 

- PE-2. The PE-2 is fast and maneuverable. The PE-2 rear gunner is like Jimmy Chitwood shooting jump shots. He does not miss. 

 

- IL-2. Flying tank. Tough as nails and can take a huge beating. 

 

- A-20. Fast. Decent MG coverage. I rank it lower than the first two simply because it is a big target, and isn't as fast as a PE-2 or as tough as an IL-2.

 

- BF-110. This thing has the strength of wet cardboard. It flies apart at the slightest damage. That being said, it is reasonably fast and maneuverable once it's dropped its load. For a twin engine craft. 

 

- HE-111. Way more armament than a BF-110, but its lack of speed and maneuverability make it a sitting duck. Large target like the A-20, always draws a crowd. 

 

- Stuka. Slow, fragile, limited rear armament. Dead meat if it is carrying any bombs when attacked. 

 

- HS-129. Like the Stuka but w/out a rear gunner. Dead.

 

I don't own the JU-88, so can't speak to it. 

 

Anyway, just 1 man's opinion. Feel free to disagree. 

[Legioneod]

I find the A-20 to be one of the best in regards to survivability, my buddy and I had a flight the other day and we got hit by a bunch of flak and bounced by a 109, he got shot to pieces lost and engine and lost his rudder and he still was able to fly. He crashed later in the flight because he couldn't make a sharp turn in the mountains but he would have survived if not for that.

 

Il2 are tough but I've always gone down rather quickly in them, just a few shots to the tail and its a nosedive to death.

 

Pics of his plane

Spoiler

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Legioneod

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

A-20 is extremely fast. It's the fastest twin engine Aircraft ingame. 

[Porkins]

2 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

I find the A-20 to be one of the best in regards to survivability, my buddy and I had a flight the other day and we got hit by a bunch of flak and bounced by a 109, he got shot to pieces lost and engine and lost his rudder and he still was able to fly. He crashed later in the flight because he couldn't make a sharp turn in the mountains but he would have survived if not for that.

 

Il2 are tough but I've always gone down rather quickly in them, just a few shots to the tail and its a nosedive to death.

She's a great plane, no doubt. My single greatest achievement in MP took place in an A-20 in which I destroyed an AA emplacement, destroyed a tank, and then shot down an airborne BF-110, all pretty much in one pass. That being said, if I needed to do one bombing run and come back alive, I think I'd still go with the IL-2, but it is close. 

[bubo942]

I got more air-to-air kills in PE-2 (and also score) than in any fighter 

[Eicio]

The main weakness of the A-20 (for me) is the ammo capacity of the rear gunner, you shoot 0.5s and then you have a 5 seconds reload. And the tail is kind of hiding your 6 which is never a good thing. It's fast but not enough to be able to escape anything.

 

So I stopped the A20 in MP though I love the way it flies.

 

The Il-2 is basically a hornet and you wouldn't want to mess with a hornet.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

A-20 is much faster then the Pe-2, almost as fast as the Bf-109G-6. Ignore the technochat overheat warnings, they are wrong, look at the temperature guages and keep them below the temperatures stated in the specifications.

[Godspeed]

3 hours ago, Porkins said:

- BF-110. This thing has the strength of wet cardboard. It flies apart at the slightest damage. That being said, it is reasonably fast and maneuverable once it's dropped its load. For a twin engine craft. 

 

 

If can hold it you have nothing to fear

 

In all seriousness Bf-110 is best ground attacker for hit & run i think.

It cant take alot of hits but when you go target fast and drop bombs and get out asap i usually survive at least so i can crash land to own side.

 

I always use protection plates for pilot and engines.

When trained with bombs it can take two tanks out relatively easy.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Godspeed

[Finkeren]

I would place the He 129 higher than the Stuka in survivability, due to its relative maneuverability and strong offensive armament, meaning a good pilot can turn the fight around against an unwary attacker, same as the IL-2. 

 

The Ju 88 would be high on the list, if it was included. It is extremely durable and somewhat counter-intuitively it seems way less prone to getting its crew killed when taking hits. I quite often score PKs against He 111 when using all-AP ammo in my La-5, very seldom against Ju 88s.

[Bilbo_Baggins]

JU88 catches fire straight away and the Henschel has wings that snap like twigs. It's been like this for a long time now. 

[Nil]

Yes, flying bomber is a one way trip, I agree.

This is mostly a gunner issues. Not accurate with some bombers: not a single bullet into the enemy.

If you want to take control, the handling is hard and clunky.

I hope some day they will improve that.

It was been said several times.

[Eicio]

1 hour ago, Finkeren said:

I would place the He 129 higher than the Stuka in survivability, due to its relative maneuverability and strong offensive armament, meaning a good pilot can turn the fight around against an unwary attacker, same as the IL-2. 

 

 

IMHO It's a little too slow to fight and most of all it's cockpit has a very poor visibility making it hard to follow moving targets.

2 minutes ago, 1./TG1_Nil said:

If you want to take control, the handling is hard and clunky.

 

What do you find hard or clunky ? 

[Nightrise]

3 hours ago, Godspeed said:

 

If can hold it you have nothing to fear

 

In all seriousness Bf-110 is best ground attacker for hit & run i think.

It cant take alot of hits but when you go target fast and drop bombs and get out asap i usually survive at least so i can crash land to own side.

 

I always use protection plates for pilot and engines.

When trained with bombs it can take two tanks out relatively easy.

I would say the 190a5/u17 is the best hit and run attack plane but the 110 comes close. 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

4 hours ago, Porkins said:

Flying bombers in multiplayer is not for the faint hearted. Flying a bomber makes you an instant target, and you really can't rely on air cover from your comrades who are busy dog fighting. 

 

This is what makes it sad and fun at the same time!!

 

I will join a TS sever and try to get people to cover me to the target. BECAUSE guess what that is how we win. They all say yes yes I will cover u, but soon get bored and fly off. Then I am left on my own or if Im lucky a bomber wing man. We get the job done and go home if we are lucky never due to help from cover from fighters. They might as well not exist!!!!!!!!!

[JonRedcorn]

Was using a lagg-3 in wings of liberty last night and gathered up 55 points, that thing can absolutely annihilate trains and ground units. Those cannons are not messing around. Just had a bunch of fun runs with the pe-2 and the IL-2. I liked the pe-2 much better. I actually dropped my payload in the pe-2 over target, bounced out, shot some ground units, and then got jumped by a 109, he ran into me and I got credited for the kill haha. Made it back to base only to dump it like a truck on the runway for an emergency landing.

 

I guess when the server isn't completely full it's a little easier, but if you take the long ways to the targets you can sometimes make it back. Flying straight through is just asking for trouble.

[-SF-Disarray]

The best hit and run tactic for any plane is to line up your attack run in such a way that you are diving toward your landing strip. This way you can dive in and drop all your ordinance in one go and be on your way home with all the speed you can want. This will sometimes limit your effectiveness though, if the target isn't lined up very with your approach and egress. But when the target aligns with your plan and the right bomb load, say the all 100 kg bombs on the A-20, you can cause a lot of damage and still be safe. In addition to the speed you build up in your attack you are attacking from an angle the enemy may not be watching for or give them a second's pause to decide if you are really an enemy.

[xvii-Dietrich]

13 hours ago, Porkins said:

I thought I would rate the survive ability of bombers (not fighter bombers) {...}

 

It is interesting that although the thread intended to preclude "fighter bombers", there is nevertheless discussion of the bombers being used in a fighter bomber role, attacking trains, tanks, AA emplacements, etc. in low-level attacks. Perhaps that is what was meant? In which case, I agree with @=FEW=nightrise that it is the FW 190 that excels in those hit-and-run operations... at least better than the Bf 110, Ju 87, Ju 88 and He 111.

 

Bombers (by which I mean mid- to high-altitude level bombers) are always going to lose out due to lack of numbers — difficulty in finding enough bomber pilots and then keeping them together. I do suspect that a decent (15+) flight of He 111s would be rather formidable based on sheer firepower and relative safety in numbers... even if there was no escort. And there is unlikely to be escort; as @AeroAce says, the escorts "get bored and fly off".

 

So, in that case, I'd say the best bet for small-numbers of level bombers would be speed over protection. Your best bet is not to get caught in the first place. And, from what I've flown, the Ju 88 is good at that.

 

 

 

PS: I have no experience flying Soviet aircraft, so all my comments are from the Luftwaffe/Ilmavoimat perspective only.

[354thFG_Leifr]

We routinely fly the 88 as a group at high-altitude (5K+) on FinnishServer and, although our numbers are small, it's usually enough to inflict like-for-like damage on the attacking pair. It's unusual that we are intercepted at such a high altitude, I suppose it is symptomatic of the lower-altitude furballs that people enjoy so much. I think in over 200+ sorties as a group, we've been intercepted around ten times, and around a third of those we've all managed to escape or fend off the attackers. It takes patience to fly longer missions (we average forty minutes a sortie) and a degree of skill to get the bombs on target but it's fun, I would advise any and all to try it out at least a few times ... something might just click for you! If you really want to try it out as a group, feel free to drop me a PM and we can sort something out.

 

I think a lot of people take a solo bomber up, hit a middling altitude (2K - 4K) and quickly find out how vulnerable they are without covering fire from other aircraft.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Leifr

[Herne]

one of the things I love about MP is seeing returning damaged bombers limping home, while I taxi to the runway for take off. I actually really like flying the stuka in MP. she's quite nimble weaving in and out of clusters of trees on the deck

 

[Haza]

8 hours ago, AeroAce said:

 

This is what makes it sad and fun at the same time!!

 

I will join a TS sever and try to get people to cover me to the target. BECAUSE guess what that is how we win. They all say yes yes I will cover u, but soon get bored and fly off. Then I am left on my own or if Im lucky a bomber wing man. We get the job done and go home if we are lucky never due to help from cover from fighters. They might as well not exist!!!!!!!!!

 

AeroAce,

 

I totally agree that is the way to win, however, your stats in WOL reflect the fact that you are doing on average  one sortie every 5-6 days for the last 6-7 months and that certainly isn't going to win a map, never mind the month.  Indeed, I would say in WOL if you are doing so few missions, perhaps you are just missing out on the fighter escort types, or perhaps players are not seeing you enough to build up that gaming coordination with you.  just an observation that might help you!?

 

Regards 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

The biggest impediment (as I see it) to high altitude level bombing is the duration of some mission times in MP. Many of the servers are fighter-centric based, with little to no afterthought for the bombers.

 

With regards to the different bomber types, having flown them all (my view):

 

Bombers

 Pe-2 is "extremely" durable with great defensive armament.

 

 Ju 88, catches fire with relative ease, good armament and bomb load

 

111 is a flying coffin due to the lack of pilot armour (one shot pilot kills galore). Good armament and big bomb load. 

 

A-20 is fast and durable but its defensive armament  is plain weak.

 

Ground attack 

 

Il2, probably the best ground attacker in the Sim, tough as old boots with a great armament package. 

 

110, a very good ground attack aircraft but it seems to suffers with durability issues and E series rear gunner is useless. 

 

Stuka, great and capable aircraft that does what it was designed to do but needs escort to keep fighters at bay.

 

He 129, tough in the fuselage but seems weak in the wings, good armament but vulnerable if caught out by fighters.   

  

[D3adCZE]

He111 has good armamanet? Maybe, but Hanz in the gunner position is blind and cannot hit a thing. In all of my sorties in He111, when gunner started to shoot, I could just bail out since he could not fend off any attackers. 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

1 hour ago, Haza said:

 

AeroAce,

 

I totally agree that is the way to win, however, your stats in WOL reflect the fact that you are doing on average  one sortie every 5-6 days for the last 6-7 months and that certainly isn't going to win a map, never mind the month.  Indeed, I would say in WOL if you are doing so few missions, perhaps you are just missing out on the fighter escort types, or perhaps players are not seeing you enough to build up that gaming coordination with you.  just an observation that might help you!?

 

Regards 

 

 

Yeah guess why I gave up lol. I gave up quite some time ago.

Edited June 19, 2018 by AeroAce

[dkoor]

16 hours ago, Porkins said:

Flying bombers in multiplayer is not for the faint hearted. Flying a bomber makes you an instant target, and you really can't rely on air cover from your comrades who are busy dog fighting. That means that bomber trips are often one way. I thought I would rate the survive ability of bombers (not fighter bombers), based on my fake combat experience.

 

From Best to Worst:

 

- PE-2. The PE-2 is fast and maneuverable. The PE-2 rear gunner is like Jimmy Chitwood shooting jump shots. He does not miss. 

 

- IL-2. Flying tank. Tough as nails and can take a huge beating. 

 

- A-20. Fast. Decent MG coverage. I rank it lower than the first two simply because it is a big target, and isn't as fast as a PE-2 or as tough as an IL-2.

 

- BF-110. This thing has the strength of wet cardboard. It flies apart at the slightest damage. That being said, it is reasonably fast and maneuverable once it's dropped its load. For a twin engine craft. 

 

- HE-111. Way more armament than a BF-110, but its lack of speed and maneuverability make it a sitting duck. Large target like the A-20, always draws a crowd. 

 

- Stuka. Slow, fragile, limited rear armament. Dead meat if it is carrying any bombs when attacked. 

 

- HS-129. Like the Stuka but w/out a rear gunner. Dead.

 

I don't own the JU-88, so can't speak to it. 

 

Anyway, just 1 man's opinion. Feel free to disagree. 

First off, great and interesting post! Thumbs up!

 

 

From what I've gathered so far:

- Pe-2 - similar experiences.

- IL-2 - truly a flying tank, even tho some were questioning that tail cables snapping issue... takes beating like no tomorrow and keeps on going.

- A-20 - no experience with the type. But speed is hardly advantage with bombers in the game, unless it is such that allows user to escape. In A-20 one probably can effectively escape only Bf-109E.

- Bf-110. It's fast and carries great loadout. Strongest point is speed, and unless used to best effect, one is pretty much done... no chance mixing with agile VVS fighters. Useless rear gun (angle insufficiently wide).

- He-111... don't know what to say. Belongs pretty much in category "no escort - no flight".

- Ju-87 - same as He-111.

- Hs-129, better than practically everything except for Pe-2 and IL-2. In Hs-129 you can actually mix and even shot down over zealous E/A... the smart ones will extend and wont buy the slow fight trick but someone just may buy it which makes Hs-129 considerably more survivable flying coffin. Drawback is that one must not take large fuel quantities nor heavy loadout options which may limit anti ground combat effectivness.

- Ju-88, pretty much everything that works for He-111, although Ju-88 should be faster. Not of much help in game, except very early on where one can hope to evade I-16.

 

 

In all honesty, all rear gunners should be promoted to snipers in MP (one rank above ace) because while it is historically totally inaccurate, it may help achieve two things:

- levelling out total historical inaccuracy in a way that no one is ever escorted online effectivelly and in organized manner, another team just have to hit a key see that someone is flying bomber than oversee the ground targets for couple of mins then - boom easy score when big bird lazily flaps over the target.

- the game would that way encourage more people to fly bombers/attack aircraft as they would be less of a sitting ducks.

That way it would be non-historically tough to bring down the bomber with snipers, however more experienced pilots would still be able to down it without a hole in their aircraft.

[Feathered_IV]

MP mission designers frequently place targets in such a way that bombers are dead meat and just fodder to please enemy fighters.  Survivability of individual types often counts for naught in such situations.  

[dkoor]

21 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

MP mission designers frequently place targets in such a way that bombers are dead meat and just fodder to please enemy fighters.  Survivability of individual types often counts for naught in such situations.  

It's not directly related, but I often wonder why that "full real" is some kind of big deal among certain population, it just seems more and more to me that it's some kind of nerd showoff who's got the best hwarez or something. I very seldom saw people crying for real WW2 experience, they are just focused at this hardware thing really while at the same time flying totally unrealistic and meaningless air wars. That big dot and/or icon is gonna screw everything! Yeah, right.

Attacking ground targets from air is a big and serious deal in any war, certainly much more than a fighter show, yet in IL-2 it boils down to put them there for fighters to feed.

[Finkeren]

21 minutes ago, dkoor said:

It's not directly related, but I often wonder why that "full real" is some kind of big deal among certain population, it just seems more and more to me that it's some kind of nerd showoff who's got the best hwarez or something. I very seldom saw people crying for real WW2 experience, they are just focused at this hardware thing really while at the same time flying totally unrealistic and meaningless air wars. That big dot and/or icon is gonna screw everything! Yeah, right.

Attacking ground targets from air is a big and serious deal in any war, certainly much more than a fighter show, yet in IL-2 it boils down to put them there for fighters to feed.

 

Well, you're sort of hitting the nail on the head. Generally speaking we are approaching a pretty good representation of the technical side of air combat, but we have a very poor representation of air warfare.

 

Question is: Do we really want realistic air battles? I'm not certain we do or that it's even possible to force players with only virtual lives to lose to behave in an manner that would reflect actual air warfare.

[dkoor]

24 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

 

Well, you're sort of hitting the nail on the head. Generally speaking we are approaching a pretty good representation of the technical side of air combat, but we have a very poor representation of air warfare.

 

Question is: Do we really want realistic air battles? I'm not certain we do or that it's even possible to force players with only virtual lives to lose to behave in an manner that would reflect actual air warfare.

Exactly that.

[Cpt_Cool]

I think high altitude bomber airstarts have a place in MP. Not for the fullest real of real servers maybe, but I think once you have taken off and climbed to altitude a few times, you get the point, and encouraging ppl to fly bombers is a good thing.

[=621=Samikatz]

18 hours ago, Eicio said:

The main weakness of the A-20 (for me) is the ammo capacity of the rear gunner, you shoot 0.5s and then you have a 5 seconds reload. And the tail is kind of hiding your 6 which is never a good thing. It's fast but not enough to be able to escape anything.

 

You don't rely on the rear guns in the A-20, you turn around and dogfight!

[Legioneod]

35 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

 

You don't rely on the rear guns in the A-20, you turn around and dogfight!

My buddy and I have done this on a few occasions and have come out on top.

I got shot up by a 109 and my buddy came zooming in on a headon pass and shot the 109 down.

[Diggun]

Just to say that, any of you bomber jocks see me online and want an escort, I will gladly oblige. I have been having a blast escorting lengthy flights on coconut expert recently and love a bit of company! Discord is key though. Its good to talk. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by Diggun

[Finkeren]

3 hours ago, Legioneod said:

My buddy and I have done this on a few occasions and have come out on top.

I got shot up by a 109 and my buddy came zooming in on a headon pass and shot the 109 down.

 

In my A-20 career I so far have made 4 kills with the nose MGs.

[JonRedcorn]

1 hour ago, Diggun said:

Just to say that, any of you bomber jocks see me online and want an escorts, I will gladly oblige. I have been having a blast escorting lengthy flights on coconut expert recently and love a bit of company! Discord is key though. Its good to talk. 

Is there an official discord for il2? I do get a tad lonely in the headset.

[Diggun]

3 hours ago, grimm862 said:

 Is there an official discord for il2? 

There is! Don't have a link to hand but I am sure a brief search here will find it. Also join the coconut and sheriff servers. You'll be winged up in no time. If in doubt pm me. 

[JonRedcorn]

24 minutes ago, Diggun said:

There is! Don't have a link to hand but I am sure a brief search here will find it. Also join the coconut and sheriff servers. You'll be winged up in no time. If in doubt pm me. 

Thanks, that would be sweet! I'll search for the discord.

[Hoss]

I pretty much only fly bombers, I like them all, although I don't fly the He-111, or Hs-129, or Ju-87 that often, I like taking a good sized bomb load in a quick platform, So Pe-2, A-20, Ju-88 and once in awhile the Bf-110.  I'm always above 2500m in altitude, I fly to the target figure out how it's laid out, usually fly past it, make my turn, reduce power to idle, do a 45° shallow dive watching I don't exceed safe speed, (I set all my bombs to drop at once on a .25 sec interval, 2sec delay and drop all of them in once pass and haul ass...............  my best streak was 30 missions and 327 ground kills before I was either killed or captured.  It's all in how you use the plane, and having a couple of more like minded people with you always helps.  So my advice is to get on Battle of Stalingrad Team speak and see if anyone is on, and if they are flying bombers.  I'm west coast, and some nights no on is on and others there are a nice bunch all working together to take out targets and win the map.  Once you start using TS, and you get to know your crowd....  you will have a bit more fun and success.

 

Battle of Stalingrad Team Speak......... Server IP: 108.61.114.3:9407        Password: bos2014

 

Wings of Liberty Discord................. https://discord.gg/3ar2b5       

 

IL2 Stalingrad Great Battles Discord...............  https://discord.gg/

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Hoss

 

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by 19//Hoss

[Gambit21]

On 6/18/2018 at 12:21 PM, Porkins said:

A-20. Fast. Decent MG coverage. I rank it lower than the first two simply because it is a big target, and isn't as fast as a PE-2 or as tough as an IL-2.

 

Say what Gordo?

[BraveSirRobin]

On 6/18/2018 at 8:25 PM, AeroAce said:

 

This is what makes it sad and fun at the same time!!

 

I will join a TS sever and try to get people to cover me to the target. BECAUSE guess what that is how we win. They all say yes yes I will cover u, but soon get bored and fly off. Then I am left on my own or if Im lucky a bomber wing man. We get the job done and go home if we are lucky never due to help from cover from fighters. They might as well not exist!!!!!!!!!

 

I suspect that after talking to you on TS for a few minutes they probably realize that you are too sauced to hit the target.  At that point, why take the risk?

[Feathered_IV]

I find once the fighters begin weaving overhead they loose sight of the thing they are escorting inside of ten minutes.