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bf-109 vs fw-190 strategy

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So I'm still too inexperienced that performance difference between planes aren't immediately obvious to me. So far I've spent 90% of my time in bf-109s and understand that they climb better than any other plane, are good in a dive and have fast acceleration and speed, but not as good at turning as the Russian planes and as such are better suited for "boom 'n zoom" tactics.

 

How does the fw-190 compare to the bf-109? (climb ability, diving, speed, acceleration, turning, energy retention)? How should one fly an fw-190 compared to a bf-109?

 

I tried flying it a bit and my initial impression is that they roll extremely well (why is that?), turn well at high speed (don't seem to lock like the 109), but I think they're bad at climbing :(.

 

Anyways, I'm just looking for performance comparisons with the 109 and recommended strategies.

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Since the dawn of IL-2 series, FW-190s seems to have somewhat stronger fanbase in terms of numbers.

If that counts anyhow anyway. But there is some rather strong logic behind this... In effectively all periods of war on East, VVS always had one or more types that were more agile than any other German plane. Not faster, just more agile in terms of sustained horizontal circling. So if you filter-compare Bf-109 and FW-190 thru this then it is no wonder that many folks figured that they would mostly employ BnZ, drive-by, drag'n bag, or whatever you wanna call it tactic, with little or no horizontal circling involved.

And there we are.

 

There is absolutely no better plane doing this on Eastern Front than FW-190... it simply begs for more speed, has enormous firepower and dives wonderfully.

Bf-109 on the other hand, is much more versatile plane, but you know what they say about jack-of-all trades... it simply cannot top FW-190 in this tactic.

Is Bf-109 a great plane? Yes, my personal opinion is that it just may be one of the best planes of WW2 simply because it:

- is good doing BnZ, but not FW-190 good

- is good for soloing

- ALWAYS has some kind of upper hand over his adversaries - whereas FW-190 for instance does not and cannot mix it up the way 109 can

 

On the direct comparison... Bf-109 certainly climbs better than 190, in fact it climbs better than anything else. Depending on type of course, but generally speaking one of the strongest 109 points is exactly its climb rate. In terms of pure speed, things aren't that clear. Depending on altitude, you will find that somewhere 109 has upper hand, and somewhere 190 is faster.

Diving is generally speaking 190s playground. 109 dives nicely but tends to get heavy on controls much sooner than 190 thus rendering extreme BnZ (which wurger seems to like) nearly out of the question. Energy retention... don't know exactly, but I'd say in a real life (game) situation I'd probably put my money of 190, because you need to fly 'cleaner' by default in order to do good. That meaning, you cannot twitch and throw your FW around else you lose speed. And your virtual life in the process.

 

109 is quicker in deceleration... is one of the best all around in deceleration which comes handy when you have someone angry at your six. Works really well with good 109 acceleration too.

I'd say that 109 accelerates faster than 190.

 

Note that I'm writing all this mostly from years of my old IL-2 1946 experience, sure I flew IL-2 BoS a lot but haven't played for years now, so things might have slightly changed... 

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This is a pretty complex question and the longer you play the game you will see that. A simple explanation is the 190 is a great boom and zoomer and the main keys are to maintain speed and use it's good roll rate. The 109 is a great climber, especially the F4 and G2. The 109 can actually turn quite well and better than some reds at lower speeds. The guns are much more lethal in the 190 although the 109 guns are adequate and the G6 packs a good punch. That's my brief and simple summary but there are plenty of experts here that will chime in with some more thorough explanations.

 

*Edit* Forgot to mention, the 190 dives better and the 109 loses most control surface functionality at high speed so it is a challenge in a high speed dive.

Edited by 1_Robert_

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I find most pilots who are excellent at the Bf109 tend not to like the FW190 very much and those who like the FW190 tend not to like the Bf109 very much. They have dramatically different styles and they need to be flown very differently although both are really good.

 

Bf109 tends to excel in climb and turns versus the FW190 that excels in firepower, roll and high speed maneuvering.

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I would take 190 over 109 anytime. It's usually faster, especially down low. Visibility is great and if you fly solo this is the no.1 factor in staying alive. Roll is top-notch and I personally think in combination with speed is a better trait to have in a plane than the ability to turn well. Firepower is just a what a lousy shot, as I am, desperately needs. A single pass can be enough to get down even mighty Pe2 while 109 pilots develop PTSD after a couple of encounters with pe's rear gunner. It carries much more ammo than 109 and it can stay longer in battle as it has more fuel. 190 is much more robust and can sustain more damage. Black smoke in 109 is usually the end of the game unless you just happen to be near your AF, 190 will take you home most of the time even across the map. Only thing I don't like about 190 is a climb rate and due to it's very hard to develop upper hand in a battle if red plane is above you, while 109 has the ability to turn things around in some cases. It means you have to disengage in 190 more often, but good thing is that you usually can.    

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Well, the 190 is a born Ground Pounder, excellent Firepower and Bombload coupled with excellent Speed at Ground Level and Good Armor as well as Radial Engine. 

 

It's true calling is in the Destruction of Attackers, Heavy Fighters and Bombers. It can strike quickly and before the Gunners have a lot of time to React. 

 

In Fighter to Fighter Combat it requires the Pilot to maintain Speeds above 400 TAS at all times. It cannot beat a Yak-1b in Climbs below 450 IAS unless Emergency Power is used. And that's 3 Minutes only, we tried. Manouvers are useless as the Yak can simply climb above you in a Scissor, keep out of your Weapons Range and kill you quickly. 

La-5 has Slats and equal Climb Performance, so no Chance to beat it at Speeds below 450 as well. 

 

In a Power on Dive at a constant 700kph the Yak-1 and 190 at Combat Power have the same Rate of Sink, which means that in a Dive the 190 doesn't get away from it,  neither does it from the La-5 or MiG-3. 

 

So the 190 only has 2 Tricks left. Good Controls Authority at Speed (But no better than the Russians, especially LaGG, Lala, Yak and Spitfire, who can Pull Blackout G at all Speeds, only MiG and P-40 stiffen up significantly with Speed) and simple Top Speed. And the Fact that you see your Enemy. Apart from that it's useless. 

 

 

 

The 109 on the other Hand has so much more to offer. It has incredble Acceleration and Climb (to become even better in upcoming Patches with actual VDM Propeller Data) which is unrivalled by it's contemporaries. 

Except for Deck Level it's Top Speeds are adequate and once familiarized with the Stabilzer Trim the Control heaviness becomes less of an Issue (only comparatively, as the Russian Fighters have demonstrably too light Controls). 

On a cloudy Day with Attackers to Cover the 109 is the one for the Job. 

The 190 is the fair Weather BnZ of Opportunity, the 109 is the Workwhore. 

 

 

The Russians weren't particularly impressed with the 190 because although a great Pilot's Aircraft, they were heavy and underpowered. And only the Lackluster Performance of P-40, P-38 and P-47B, Hurricane, Typhoon, Spit Mk.V and early F Mk.IX gave it the stellar Impression it didn't really deserve. 

 

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
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Foke compressor performs really bad between 1000 and 2000m. So on this front where you are a lot of times there is just underpowered. On my experience if a russian pilot sees you on the foke you just can run and i am all the time climbing instead of attacking because takes so long to get the position i want for my attacks. If you are on the A3 and a yak1b follows you close enought you will end your emergency power time and you are kind of depending if the yak is a good manager of the engine or not to escape. The A5 is faster so you can get distance with the cowl flaps almost closed.

 

For pure disciplined flight and flying in groups the 190 can make the job bu when i fly just in a pair or alone i preffer the 109. I can get alt faster afer my attacks and i can turn a little bit more to find the shot that with the 190 i cant so i just need one pass or i can press my opponent. With the 190 you need to make really big mooves not to lose energy and your opponent has all the time of the worl to take the optimal position for defence. If someone follows me i can turn back climing and counterstrike with the foke you cant. 

 

On conclution when I fly the 109 I am hunting and making really fast attacks i mean not spending time getting a good position or alt difference. And with the Foke I am allways running from yaks on my six and making easy the life of the 109s who get the enemies behind me. So... 

 

I enjoyed a lot the 190 on the old 46 but here he just bleeds to much energy and it has not the incredible instant 30 degrees turn that had on 46. Also every yak or La even P39 have a retarded light controls and roll in all speeds so that extra agility is not an advantage because they will make a retarded negative G break and you can also not follow this so... Now with the LA5FN the 190 has really any advantage over him. At least with the 109 you can outclim them or turn figh.

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6 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

The 109 on the other Hand has so much more to offer. It has incredble Acceleration and Climb (to become even better in upcoming Patches with actual VDM Propeller Data)

What, they found the data?

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6 hours ago, E69_geramos109 said:

 Now with the LA5FN the 190 has really any advantage over him. At least with the 109 you can outclim them or turn figh.

 

The FN is still not robust enough to withstand very fast dives (+800km/h) and FN's forward visibility is just bad.

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If you're hunting bombers or IL-2s then use the fw-190 otherwise (and very definitely in a turn fight) use the bf 109, (ideally the F4) unless your gunnery and handling is so accurate that you can dive on a fighter at great speed and whack it whilst overtaking it in which case try the 190.

I used to fly the 190 all the time until I got sick of near instant energy depletion when trying to turn fight migs and I-16s. I switched to the bf 109 F4 with additional guns and suddenly I could match anything.

Edited by Lensman

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1 hour ago, Lensman said:

I used to fly the 190 all the time until I got sick of near instant energy depletion when trying to turn fight migs and I-16s. I switched to the bf 109 F4 with additional guns and suddenly I could match anything.

 

Try doing yoyos in the Fw190 - you may be able to out-energy opponents, then.

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With the FM's as they are, at sea level the Fw190 turns as well as the Bf109, but is more tricky to handle. It's easier to push it too far, and if you do it is not as forgiving as a Bf109.

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I don`t fly Axis planes much, but I really liked flying the 190 over 109, kills also came easier, something I did not expect.

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I like the 190 more than the 109 although many times the second is better taken advantage of. Horizontal speed and separation are key factors for the 190. The 190 is an aircraft that must be used as a ram. Before they have time to react, your pilot has to be moving away and gaining speed. The problem comes when you climb after the fight losing that speed you win or when someone chases you, people simply descend without having enough horizontal space or speed. If you keep your speed high, close to 500 km / h and descend safely, you should have no problem at all.

The speed for the 190 is the most important along with the horizontal distance. Do not try to climb with a Soviet pursuing you since in many cases you will both remain at a low speed and will win the one that weighs the least. Having said that, I must also comment that in a matter of equal energy, the engine raw power of the 190 makes it very prone to make a vertical ascent leaving behind any plane that pursues it in very specific situations, this is evidently a suicide in a real combat.

 

The 190 also takes advantage of combat in pairs. One Fw190 diving while another one covering can make a mess.

For me, the 190 is a plane that needs very good situational awarness and patience. If you do your job correctly you can't be hit in most cases and one pass is enough to destroy any plane.

 

Also, many people don't use the 190 as a head-on fighter. if you are being pursued and gain some horizontal speed and the soviet still on your tail, you can pull a 180º turn very fast, faster than any plane and try to scare him with all of your armament. Those turns are also dangerous but in a descend can also save your life. As I said, horizontal speed is going to save you. No matter how faster is the plane above flying, if you get enough separation he won't be able to dive on you if you keep speed and can see him coming.

Edited by LF_ManuV
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1 hour ago, LF_ManuV said:

I like the 190 more than the 109 although many times the second is better taken advantage of. Horizontal speed and separation are key factors for the 190. The 190 is an aircraft that must be used as a ram. Before they have time to react, your pilot has to be moving away and gaining speed. The problem comes when you climb after the fight losing that speed you win or when someone chases you, people simply descend without having enough horizontal space or speed. If you keep your speed high, close to 500 km / h and descend safely, you should have no problem at all.

The speed for the 190 is the most important along with the horizontal distance. Do not try to climb with a Soviet pursuing you since in many cases you will both remain at a low speed and will win the one that weighs the least. Having said that, I must also comment that in a matter of equal energy, the engine raw power of the 190 makes it very prone to make a vertical ascent leaving behind any plane that pursues it in very specific situations, this is evidently a suicide in a real combat.

 

The 190 also takes advantage of combat in pairs. One Fw190 diving while another one covering can make a mess.

For me, the 190 is a plane that needs very good situational awarness and patience. If you do your job correctly you can't be hit in most cases and one pass is enough to destroy any plane.

 

Also, many people don't use the 190 as a head-on fighter. if you are being pursued and gain some horizontal speed and the soviet still on your tail, you can pull a 180º turn very fast, faster than any plane and try to scare him with all of your armament. Those turns are also dangerous but in a descend can also save your life. As I said, horizontal speed is going to save you. No matter how faster is the plane above flying, if you get enough separation he won't be able to dive on you if you keep speed and can see him coming.

A lone 190 did all of those things to me last night on Berloga and annihilated me a few times, so I'm getting a kick out of this one. I'd rather take on a 109 any day of the week.

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If I want to change direction in the 190 I use the vertical instead of horizontal.  Gain speed, get a little separation, and do a half loop.  If I want to pursue it is yoyos, never horizontal turns.  However, doing this risks allowing your speed to drop too low if you keep it up too long.  At some point before you reach the deck you have to use the 190s speed and acceleration to extend away.  Fly away and reset - or just fly away and go home.  

 

The190s controllability at speed has been mentioned.  If you keep the speed high the 190 will respond better than the 109.  The 190 will make very nice instantaneous maneuvers at speed, letting you get your guns on target for a shot.  Just don't overdo it.  Take the shot and live with the results.

 

Teamwork was also mentioned.  The 190 is tougher and hits harder.  If you are alone and turn fighting this doesn't do you much good as you will eventually get killed without ever getting a shot.  However, if you are flying with a partner he has a very good chance of killing the guy on your tail before that guy gets you.  This is where rollrate can really help.  You use the 190s roll rate to avoid getting killed.  Your partner uses the 190s roll rate to get on target.  The guy behind you is sticking with you but can't quite get guns in target for the kill - then he evaporates in a hail of 20mm love when your partner gets a solution.

 

In the real world the 190 was more successful than the 109 in the west, both in fighter vs. fighter and fighter vs. bomber.  In the east the 109 remained a top notch plane, although it must be noted that FW190 fighter units (not Jabo) - JG54 in particular - produced some of the top scoring pilots in the theatre (Nowotny, Lang, Kittle).  In the west FW190 losses were lower and victories higher.  Not sure about the east.  The 109 might be a better plane in an online duel, but in the real world, flying as a team, the 190 offered pilots a better chance at success and survival.

Edited by PatrickAWlson
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Thanks for the info everyone. Is it correct to summarize the difference in strategies as follows?

 

Due to its faster speed and excellent maneuverability in high speeds but bad climbing ability the fw-190 is strictly more of a hit 'n run, boom 'n zoom type of plane, not to engage in any direct fighting. Just dive and climb, or extend. No horizontal turning and keep its speed up. Whereas the 109 is more capable in an energy fight due to its superior acceleration and climbing ability. Meaning it can perform loops, spiral climbs, yoyo's, rope a dope, etc with greater effectiveness.

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3 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

The 109 might be a better plane in an online duel, but in the real world, flying as a team, the 190 offered pilots a better chance at success and survival.

 

If you compare JG54 with JG52, you will find out that JG52 was more successful in the eastern front with their 109s than JG54 with their 190s and I am not even speaking about their aces. Moreover a few russian pilots claimed that fighting a 190 was not so hard as it was against a 109. But I think that comes from the dogfight tactics each plane types prefered.

 

That entire 190 or 109 is better thing is just a waste of time actually. You CAN'T compare them AND you can't replace them with another. How you are supposed to escort bombers when all you do is flying boom and zoom maneuvers while your objective is dying down there? You need a 109 and get into that madness and take part in turnfights(yes german pilots turnfought a lot, even some of you might claim they were all Barons who BnZ only).

And how you want to attack heavy bombers like B17s with 1x20mm and 1x 7,92mm/13mm? You need a 190 for that.

 

What you think over the Reich why 109s had to attack the fighter escort and the 190s the bomber?(not all the time tho)

Edited by [3./J88]PikAss

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Yes, this is not meant to be a "which is better post", just learning the strengths and weaknesses and how to best use the 190 compared to the 109.

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I see some of you guys mentioned Cobra... haven't flown it in new Sturmo, but in old one seeing engaging P-39 at level while flying German aircraft early/mid war was one of the worst things... especially if you are in FW-190... with Bf-109 you could hope to outfly/outmaneuver P-39, but engaging it with FW-190 - you were pretty much dead meat because P-39 dive really could match FW-190 and 190 doesn't have anything to offer in mixing it up with Cobra. Maybe in some sort of medium to high altitude fast fight, but even that would require a lot of luck and really nice skills to come out on top.

I used to like P-39 a lot in IL-2 1946 precisely of its maneuverability, speed and good diving chars... sniping peoples with 37mm cannon in shallow dive is usually a lot of fun and can be done with rather good success rate because that cannon has high muzzle velocity therefore is more adapted to shooting at extreme diving speeds... minus is slow rate of fire but I guess once when one adapts to the cannon physics it shouldn't be that much of a prob.

 

Actually I would also agree with [3./J88]PikAss and his thoughts two posts above.

 

Also SpaydCBR, bear in mind that practically every fight is different and there is no fixed rules only recommendations. I've seen people aggressively seeking for that aiming angle in FW-190 versus some of the games best horizontal turners like Spitfire Mk.IX and they actually had success depending on their experience... but it's not easy. Mostly because you will need to make a choice in split second and then stick to your plan, else it probably wont work.

What you will see as a general advice not to mix it up in FW-190 is a good advice, but sometimes you could seek that one angle of aim at E/A and live to tell the story even if you completely miss. It's on you to decide.

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dkoor, did you not post some great videos back in the Il--2 days? I seem to recall you from something like that (or maybe just some HL missions).

 

I like the 190 in principle and really want to improve in it. Fine against the AI, not so good against humans...

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the 109 is best on scissors due to slats

 

the 190 exceels on classic energy dogfighting:

 

you keep turning at almost 400 kph if the foe burns all his energy to get on your six you go for a hammerhead and he is toast

 

if you prefer not to dogfight you can wait to acquire 1500 m of separation with foe and go on this way head on after head on

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45 minutes ago, raaaid said:

the 109 is best on scissors due to slats

 

the 190 exceels on classic energy dogfighting:

 

you keep turning at almost 400 kph if the foe burns all his energy to get on your six you go for a hammerhead and he is toast

 

if you prefer not to dogfight you can wait to acquire 1500 m of separation with foe and go on this way head on after head on

iow0coUWEM9N7JvJtfOx1O30MMXjr1xuLB2_6aRCYug.jpg?w=500&s=bc47d6d91eab279bc1205928fd54d967

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3 hours ago, [3./J88]PikAss said:

 

If you compare JG54 with JG52, you will find out that JG52 was more successful in the eastern front with their 109s than JG54 with their 190s and I am not even speaking about their aces. Moreover a few russian pilots claimed that fighting a 190 was not so hard as it was against a 109. But I think that comes from the dogfight tactics each plane types prefered.

 

That entire 190 or 109 is better thing is just a waste of time actually. You CAN'T compare them AND you can't replace them with another. How you are supposed to escort bombers when all you do is flying boom and zoom maneuvers while your objective is dying down there? You need a 109 and get into that madness and take part in turnfights(yes german pilots turnfought a lot, even some of you might claim they were all Barons who BnZ only).

And how you want to attack heavy bombers like B17s with 1x20mm and 1x 7,92mm/13mm? You need a 190 for that.

 

What you think over the Reich why 109s had to attack the fighter escort and the 190s the bomber?(not all the time tho)

 

The idea that FW190s were only good at hit and run or bomber attacks is false.  FW190s did fight and were very successful - in the west more successful than 109s.  The 190 was very maneuverable, just not in sustained horizontal turns.  With its high speed handling and great roll rate the 190 could turn inside almost anything for a moment, it just couldn't sustain it.  That ability to make sharp maneuvers at speed allowed it to bring guns to bear and to evade.  The key was keep the speed up, so it was slash, fire, regain speed, slash again. 

 

The Russian opinion of FW190s is quite possibly the result of fighting Jabo 190s flown by bomber pilots.  I think there were more FW Jabo units in the east than fighter units.  

 

You are correct in the mutual benefit of 190s and 109s.  The major flaw of the 190A was performance degradation at altitude, not inability to take on fighters.  You have already pointed out the rest.

 

I would like to see the numbers comparing JG52 and JG54.  Would be interesting to see how they compare in terms of victories and losses.

 

 

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No meaningful difference. Checked that years ago.

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11 hours ago, dkoor said:

I see some of you guys mentioned Cobra... haven't flown it in new Sturmo, but in old one seeing engaging P-39 at level while flying German aircraft early/mid war was one of the worst things... especially if you are in FW-190... with Bf-109 you could hope to outfly/outmaneuver P-39, but engaging it with FW-190 - you were pretty much dead meat because P-39 dive really could match FW-190 and 190 doesn't have anything to offer in mixing it up with Cobra. Maybe in some sort of medium to high altitude fast fight, but even that would require a lot of luck and really nice skills to come out on top.

I used to like P-39 a lot in IL-2 1946 precisely of its maneuverability, speed and good diving chars... sniping peoples with 37mm cannon in shallow dive is usually a lot of fun and can be done with rather good success rate because that cannon has high muzzle velocity therefore is more adapted to shooting at extreme diving speeds... minus is slow rate of fire but I guess once when one adapts to the cannon physics it shouldn't be that much of a prob.

 

Actually I would also agree with [3./J88]PikAss and his thoughts two posts above.

 

Also SpaydCBR, bear in mind that practically every fight is different and there is no fixed rules only recommendations. I've seen people aggressively seeking for that aiming angle in FW-190 versus some of the games best horizontal turners like Spitfire Mk.IX and they actually had success depending on their experience... but it's not easy. Mostly because you will need to make a choice in split second and then stick to your plan, else it probably wont work.

What you will see as a general advice not to mix it up in FW-190 is a good advice, but sometimes you could seek that one angle of aim at E/A and live to tell the story even if you completely miss. It's on you to decide.

I agree with you, indeed. The P39 is by far one of the worst enemies for the Fw190. High speed, High dive capabilities and agilty in high speeds.

Even the P40 can be very dangerous. All the planes capable of descending or gaining a lot of speed to equal the Fw190 will make it need much more horizontal distance.
I think Bodenplatte is going to show this type of flight since almost all the planes benefit from things similar to the Fw 190.

Firepower? Check

High dive capabilites?  Check

Fast at the deck and at altitude? Check (Even if the 190 were slower)
And so no.
The P51 will be lethal, like the P47 using energy combat and because of this, will be deadly enemies for the Fw 190. A 109 is going to have an easier time dealing with them if they lose energy or speed. The K4 and the Spitfire will be the stars of the low speed combats being the first one a great plane at all the stages of altitude fights.

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Ha. The good old "190 ist ein BnZ brick".

 

Sidenote to dkoor: the M4 cannon in the P39 has a low muzzle velocity. Other than that I agree with you!

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45 minutes ago, Quinte said:

Ha. The good old "190 ist ein BnZ brick".

 

Sidenote to dkoor: the M4 cannon in the P39 has a low muzzle velocity. Other than that I agree with you!

Yes, in fact you are right. M4 has somewhat higher muzz.velocity than Mk-108 for comparison, but since I parted ways with game long time ago, I actually mistook M4 for NS-37 which is a beast in its own league. Thanks for reminder and correction... I remember how in the beginning I actually had problems with NS-37 because of that projectile speed.:biggrin:

 

On unrelated note, MG-151 always seemed to have that 'sweet spot' for me... good rate of fire, nice muzz.velocity, and predictable physics... I really enjoyed it when combined with Me-109 nose mount, it was unmatched winner especially in those quirky low speed scissor kinda fights.

56 minutes ago, LF_ManuV said:

I think Bodenplatte is going to show this type of flight since almost all the planes benefit from things similar to the Fw 190.

Firepower? Check

High dive capabilites?  Check

Fast at the deck and at altitude? Check (Even if the 190 were slower)
And so no.
The P51 will be lethal, like the P47 using energy combat and because of this, will be deadly enemies for the Fw 190. A 109 is going to have an easier time dealing with them if they lose energy or speed. The K4 and the Spitfire will be the stars of the low speed combats being the first one a great plane at all the stages of altitude fights.

Just yesterday I found a track of dogfight training in old school Sturmo ('tale of the tape':lol:), as I was selecting some of those oldies to be youtubed... I actually was amazed just how there is nothing a FW-190A8 (Sturmbock) can do to outfly a P-51D... P-51D was simply more capable fighter in IL-2 1946. Several fights, P-51D always came out on top. FW-190A9 is on the other hand, more capable dogfighter and one that will give a P-51D good run for his money.

FW-190D was absolutely lethal and I actually avoided dogfights on equal terms with them while flying P-51D...

 

So if you can tell the day by the morning, believe me, FW-190D will probably be one of those aircraft that always has some kind of upper hand over his adversaries in Bodenplatte.

 

Bf-109K not so much, because you can't really mix it up with Spitfires, and I remember how sometimes I preferred slower Bf-109G14 to K4 due to increased agility of the G14 variant.

Not that Dora will able to do that either; just that aircraft has that 'sharper' feeling when you fly it, predictable reactions, stable gunplatform and enough firepower to annihilate anything in a second... dives wonderfully and is overall more suited to high speed fighting than Kurfurst is (which is plagued by old 109 shortcoming: hi-speed locking elevator controls).

Actually, I don't really think that Bf-109 is going to have a good time fighting experienced Spitfire fighter pilots in that scenario... Spitfire can and will outmaneuver a 109 and also has decent climb rate (just enough so you can't really employ it to get away in 109), diving is not much of an option too... so best thing one can do in 109 is attack from superior position else is probably better to disengage ASAP. 

 

Bf-109G/AS was considered to be the most capable variant for majority of missions during a long list of patches... in fact at one point devs actually nerfed manual propeller pitch in the type because it had unreal climbing capabilities...

Edited by dkoor
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Yes, I see your point and I agree with it. The Spitfire is the star of the show for that kind of dogfight but if the things end up down low I think that a 109 will handle that heavy Mustang or P47 better than a 190. That's what used to happen if I remember correctly.

I can't wait to fly those planes here and I think the energy combat is going to be even more important in that theater. I find the 109 good turners but not when you compare then to pure soviet light figthers or Spitfires.

I think is going to be a rather interesting match up. I really liked that kind of combat as it is more interesting for me than get his tail in close distances.

 

For the K4 maybe we will find a lot of problems with it's weight but I think it will behave better than the G14 in a climb. After a fight, you and a Mustang down low I don't think the P51 will keep up on a steep climb with you.

And yes, the A8 is going to have a hard time but I also want to do good ground pounding with it, also for hunting B25 is going to be neat and everything that come across it's firepower

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I'm getting the impression that some people are cofusing horizontal turning ability with maneouverability.

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25 minutes ago, CrazyDuck said:

I'm getting the impression that some people are cofusing horizontal turning ability with maneouverability.

 

And they dare to give "advices" about how to use this or that plane...

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15 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

dkoor, did you not post some great videos back in the Il--2 days? I seem to recall you from something like that (or maybe just some HL missions).

 

I like the 190 in principle and really want to improve in it. Fine against the AI, not so good against humans...

Don't know mate, back in a day I posted only a lot of tracks, both offline and online. Not only my tracks, but also other peoples tracks... in fact, I seem to remember that I opened a thread about this, and there were a lot of good material there... people accumulated years of experience in game and it really showed.

 

I posted a vid (track) on youtube few years ago, and recently another one... will do a few more, interesting ones...

Edited by dkoor

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3 hours ago, LF_ManuV said:

I agree with you, indeed. The P39 is by far one of the worst enemies for the Fw190. High speed, High dive capabilities and agilty in high speeds.

Even the P40 can be very dangerous. All the planes capable of descending or gaining a lot of speed to equal the Fw190 will make it need much more horizontal distance.

 

By historical coincidence the V-1710' supercharger used in BoX' P-40 and P-39 have a critical altitude set at curious value... When the V-1710 is at the optimal altitude then the Fw190 is at worst HP wise. This also shows that the single gear supercharger is not universally worse; sometimes it is advantageous, even.

Edited by Ehret

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I personally think the 190 is a far better fighter against the current plane set. It is literally best or second best in so many important aspects:

 

Very high speed at low altitude

 

Powerful armament 

 

Stable gun platform 

 

Very maneuverable at high speeds

 

Excellent dive and zoom climb characteristics

 

Amazing roll rate

 

Good field of vision

 

High durability and survivability

 

Extremely easy controls

 

Very versatile with large payload

 

Long range and endurance

 

WEP that actually lasts long enough to be useful

 

Easy to pilot and very stable within its flight envelope

 

It really only has a handful of downsides:

 

Mediocre climb rate

 

Brutal accelerated stall

 

Performance dip at medium altitude

 

Rather obstructed forward view

 

Inferior handling with a full fuel load

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4 hours ago, Quinte said:

Ha. The good old "190 ist ein BnZ brick".

 

of course you can turnfight or turn hard into your enemy while diving with 190, but don't cry afterwards when you destroyed your greatest advantage the 190 has to offer. SPEED.

The 190 burns energy a lot in a turn and atleast in the game. It really doesn't like dogfighting with pants down(fighting in disadvantage) just like the 109 can. The speed advantage of 190 is bigger than the advantage to handle well at high speed.

Edited by [3./J88]PikAss

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3 hours ago, [3./J88]PikAss said:

 

of course you can turnfight or turn hard into your enemy while diving with 190, but don't cry afterwards when you destroyed your greatest advantage the 190 has to offer. SPEED.

The 190 burns energy a lot in a turn and atleast in the game. It really doesn't like dogfighting with pants down(fighting in disadvantage) just like the 109 can. The speed advantage of 190 is bigger than the advantage to handle well at high speed.

 

You are correct in that sustained turn fighting will get you killed in a 190.  The answer, of course, is don't do that.  

 

The 190 regains energy quickly.  The 190 pilot makes one maneuver to bring guns to bear  The 190s roll rate and high speed handling allows that one maneuver to be pretty sharp.  If you succeed you fire.  The weight of shot coming from a 190 is lethal.  If you do not succeed you regain energy and try again.

 

Now think about how this works in a more realistic environment with more than one plane involved.  I come in with my 190, make my  maneuver, take my shot.  I miss.  I  then straighten out to regain energy.  Because I have started to collect myself immediately after the failed shot and because you have also burned energy evading we are co-E at worst.  I start to extend.  You use your superior turn rate to follow.  Now you are chasing me. 

 

You are a perfect target for one of my flight mates. We have the advantages of speed, durability, and fire power.  If my flight mate is flying his plane well he will have speed.  Odds are good that he can get a pretty clean run at you.  Your flight mates are also there but are probably not co-E with my flight mate.  They can't stop him from boring in at you. 

 

You evade again, but now I have regained speed and I'm ready to have another go.  Maybe you are the best target, maybe one of your flight mates chasing my partner is the best target.  Maybe it's not going well and it's time to go home.  The nice thing is that I get to decide.

 

This is how 190s succeeded.  The plane allows you to get and retain the initiative.  You have to use that.  If you lose the initiative the plane allows you to escape.  You have to use that too sometimes.  

 

So how does this relate to the OP: FW190s work best in pairs.  Individually they offer survival.  As long as you reset and do not get into a turn fight you can stay in a fight.  However, in pairs they become lethal.  The speed, survivability, high speed handling, roll rate and fire power all combine really well to let you and your flight mate go on a cooperative killing spree.  If you think this style of fighting is dull and you want a plane that you can throw around (a perfectly legit preference), pick a different one.

 

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