Auto level autopilot is single engine airplanes which gives additional speed is being abused in multiplayer

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I am not sure that using auto level gives an advantage. I actually think that it might give a disadvantage as the auto level is controlling the elevator and not the trim tabs hence it will be giving more drag than a manually trimmed aircraft.

 

Also, this is a feature that is needed from a game point of view. As simmers we need to get a drink, take a min to check the kids..... 

 

I am not against there being an option for hardcore servers for this but that would put me off them. 

[BraveSirRobin]

There is an easy solution to this problem.  Don't use it if you don't like it.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

1 minute ago, BraveSirRobin said:

There is an easy solution to this problem.  Don't use it if you don't like it.

 

well no because people think that it gives an advantage. I think some testing is needed

[AndyJWest]

7 minutes ago, Sambot88 said:

 

I was actually playing IL-2: 1946 yesterday and was unable to get auto-level to work in my Yak 1. Now the controls are not as well explained in that game, but based on my limited experience so far it does seem that bies could be right.

 

I always assumed it was present in BoX as a gameplay concession, so you could abstract the idea that your pilot is holding the stick steady while you look at the map or something. I didn't know it was a real mechanical system that existed in some of these planes. Neat stuff.

 

It wasn't a "real mechanical system" in WW2 aircraft: see my later post: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/36561-auto-level-autopilot-is-single-engine-airplanes-which-didnt-have-this-system/?tab=comments#comment-615842

 

As for what '46 does, as far as I'm aware, it adds the feature to all aircraft with level-bombing bombsights, regardless of whether they ever had any sort of autopilot.

Edited May 11, 2018 by AndyJWest

[Feathered_IV]

I’d like to see the auto-level feature expanded upon.  Often in singleplayer I wish I could push a button to maintain my direction and present level of climb.  

[-TBC-AeroAce]

9 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

I’d like to see the auto-level feature expanded upon.  Often in singleplayer I wish I could push a button to maintain my direction and present level of climb.  

 

I think some late 109s had auto rudder for takeoff.

 

But what you want is defo cheaty unless the plane had that system. Auto level is one thing but that is a different thing.

Edited May 11, 2018 by AeroAce

[AndyJWest]

2 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

I’d like to see the auto-level feature expanded upon.  Often in singleplayer I wish I could push a button to maintain my direction and present level of climb.  

 

Some years back I made a prototype external autopilot application for use with Il-2 '46 which could do just that (amongst other things), using Devicelink. Can't be done with BoX of course, because there is no instrument output/control input API.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

22 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

 

Some years back I made a prototype external autopilot application for use with Il-2 '46 which could do just that (amongst other things), using Devicelink. Can't be done with BoX of course, because there is no instrument output/control input API.

 

Auto level is a needed convenience but taking it past that is getting into cheaty areas. These planes are not Airbus or Boeing.

Edited May 11, 2018 by AeroAce

[AndyJWest]

Just now, AeroAce said:

 

Auto level is a needed convenience but taking it past that is getting into cheaty areas.

 

Cheating who? It only ever worked in single player (Devicelink disabled a lot of features in multiplayer mode).

[-TBC-AeroAce]

well I was thinking more for mp. Auto level is a game feature that I think is needed but if we then had climb rate hold ....it would be stupid!

[AndyJWest]

An autopilot that worked like the real thing (for those few aircraft that had them) would be nice. And though they didn't have 'climb rate hold', you could certainly climb (or descend) with them engaged. The difficult bit was setting them precisely enough to maintain a constant attitude. Then again, it is a mistake to compare WW2-era autopilots with modern fly-by-wire systems. As the manual for the B-25 autopilot says (see this post https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/35796-bf-110-autopilot-question/?tab=comments#comment-604669 ), "use it as an aid to flight, not your flying and particularly not your thinking".

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I dont think you understand my thinking.

 

I want to keep the gamey auto level and after that I want what is real for the time like you said.

[xvii-Dietrich]

I agree that having autolevel is a very important feature to have -- even for single-engined aircraft. However, I am disappointed that it is so good and that pilots are punished if they switch it off and try to fly manually.

 

This applies to multi-engined aircraft too. For example, using autolevel is the most efficient way to fly the Ju 52/3m by far ( See Point #5 in this link ). It ignores any stabiliser settings you have (no matter how extreme) and you are always worse off if you try to manually trim the aircraft, including with the correct use of differential power.

 

On a related note, despite having autolevel, there is no Mode 1 Kurssteuerung in the Ju 88 A-4. This keeps the plane steady on a magnetic compass heading, but allows climb/dive. This is an important feature for getting up to high altitude. One of the reasons why there are so few high-alt bombing runs on the servers, is the tedium of holding course while ascending to 6000m.

[CisTer-dB-]

11 hours ago, JimTM said:

There is an "Auto pilot" checkbox available in the "Difficulty settings" for the server's "Custom" preset option, but it's not available for the "Normal" or "Expert" preset options. For Normal or Expert, I suppose server admins could specify "autoPilot = true" in the .sds configuration file, but I'm not sure if that would work.

 

Could it be done planes specific or it is all or none?

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Apart from auto level it should be plane specific!!!!!!

[BraveSirRobin]

2 hours ago, AeroAce said:

 

well no because people think that it gives an advantage. I think some testing is needed

 

OK, getting up to pee might give you a slight advantage over some moron who refuses to use auto-level and chooses to piss himself.  But most likely the guy using auto level also uses it to get another beer, thus making him easier to shoot down.  How much testing do you think is required to prove either of these theories?

[-TBC-AeroAce]

44 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

  How much testing do you think is required to prove either of these theories?

 

 

I think that auto level holds the elevator and does not trim so it will actually be a penalty to speed if you are not close to the correct manual trim. I think the people that are saying it is an advantage have it wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

A simple test would to do a run with max up trim on auto level and another run on max low trim on auto level and see if there is a speed difference.

Edited May 11, 2018 by AeroAce

[ZachariasX]

Anyone on autolevel is a perfect target. Even if he runs and may be faster than you „with the cheat“, he‘s so steady as a target, you can still shoot him at obscene ranges if you have centerline mounted guns.

 

And for the most part, autolevel in a fighter is indeed an indication for someone being AFK. You shouldn‘t have much problems then taking him out.

 

I see that there seem to be folks who have hours of uninterrupted playtime at hand. But some don‘t. And you don‘t have to go online at all if getting up your chair for one minute spells the end of your sortie. (Anyone said CloD?)

 

Efficiency/fuel economy is also a nonissue, as for bombers you never need full fuel for our maps. Having an autopilot reflecting the ones installed in some of those aircraft, all the better. It would certainly be more entertaining to use than autolevel.

 

So if you really want to make it a club of players that are living in a basement and that pee in a bottle, then go ahead and disable autolevel.

[JtD]

It's true that auto level does not trim but just applies proper elevator, however, only aircraft with a wrongly trimmed horizontal stab (Fw190, Bf109) would suffer a penalty from that. This penalty is mitigated by a 100% coordinated, perfectly level flight and on aircraft that just use trim tabs or would also be manually flown with improperly trimmed horizontal stabs, it is an advantage.

 

If this is just meant as an aid to those who can't take a pee before they take off, the auto level function could be limiting the plane to cruise speeds.

 

Also, I don't think my accuracy is good enough for auto level actually making a difference at long range gunnery, unless you really take evasive action on manual. Someone trying to extend with manual level flight, will still be moving inside my bullet spread, someone taking evasive action will lose enough speed so I'll catch up and shoot him from close range.

Edited May 11, 2018 by JtD

[Trooper117]

Cheating? Some of you people need a reality check... There are several aids in the game, the devs put them there for a reason. Shall we get rid of them all then?

I mean, flying a plane with a mouse? What a cheat, get rid of it!

Wait a minute, we are all cheating. Don't look now fellas, but we aren't really flying a plane, we are staring intently at a few pixels, munching snacks, drinking beer, (this is what real pilots did in combat by the way) and fondling the arse of any girlfriend that happens to pass by...

Unless you are me of course, I have to stroke cats and pat dogs during my many hours of combat flying (hard-core ultra realistic and experten mode)

What the devs really have to do is make an option to disable cats, dogs, kids, wives and girlfriend's so that we can concentrate on real combat flying with beer and snacks!

Right... Now that's out of the way let's look at the real problem... Introducing a code of conduct of decent morals and values that pretend pilots can follow, that might be a start.

To do that requires some self discipline, and that's the crux of the matter, not devs removing useful aids for the game...

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Trooper the problem is that some people feel auto level makes you faster than if you trim. I do not think this is true.

 

Your reaction is a little bit strong but correct

[Trooper117]

Strong?

I thought it was rather tongue in cheek!

[-TBC-AeroAce]

3 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

Strong?

I thought it was rather tongue in cheek!

It was but others dont get it! Lets try just stick to plain language please

[JimTM]

2 hours ago, ATAG_dB said:

Could it be done planes specific or it is all or none?

 

It's all or none for the autopilot feature (AI flies). There is no way to turn off the auto level feature. Thanks to JG300_Gruber for clarifying that earlier.

[Ehret]

28 minutes ago, AeroAce said:

Trooper the problem is that some people feel auto level makes you faster than if you trim. I do not think this is true.

 

If you trimmed properly then it's the same speed - my observation after some tests. However the "auto-level" is useful for measuring speed as it retains altitude perfectly without need of manual corrections all the time.

 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I dont think people get it.

 

The auto level holds the elevator in a position to fly straight and level. If the aircraft is way out of trim it will still do this but it will have a lot more drag!!!!

 

 

[Ehret]

20 minutes ago, AeroAce said:

I dont think people get it.

 

The auto level holds the elevator in a position to fly straight and level. If the aircraft is way out of trim it will still do this but it will have a lot more drag!!!!

 

 

 

Unfortunately not. When "auto" is on I have the ball slightly to the left and manual changes of trim rudder are doing... nothing. (just checked in quick mission to be sure)

[-TBC-AeroAce]

ahhhh yes auto does not fly the plane very well. It does not seem to control slip as u said. I am trying to say that it does not give an advantage FFS.

[TheWarsimmer]

6 hours ago, SJ_Butcher said:

I found it BS too, but I am thinking that a plane can use the autopilot if they set 80%, if you move the stick too hard or the power, the auto level would be disable

This could work

[56RAF_Roblex]

1 hour ago, AeroAce said:

I dont think people get it.

 

The auto level holds the elevator in a position to fly straight and level. If the aircraft is way out of trim it will still do this but it will have a lot more drag!!!!

 

 

 

On most aircraft, the elevator trim wheel/lever moves a little tab on your elevator that catches the airflow to push your elevator slightly up or down.  In Autolevel the elevator is held slightly up or down regardless of the trim tab position.  The difference is the potential extra drag of a tiny tab which was probably set quite close to where it should be anyway so the extra drag over doing it manually may be almost non-existent.  The real difference though is that autolevel simulates perfect trim while a pilot probably cannot get exactly the right trim tab setting for perfect trim so is constantly making small adjustments via the joystick which *does* affect the drag quite badly.

 

Example 

 

Imagine a pilot flying with his trim tab at 2.5 degrees which allows the plane to be 'roughly' level. He has not made a determined attempt at levelling exactly, lets say that would be 1.8 degrees, but it is close enough not to cause major issues.  This is how most pilots here fly.

 

If he now hits Autolevel the plane has perfect trim (in terms of elevator position) and the control surfaces are not moving but there may be some extra drag from the tiny trim tab being at 2.5 degrees when 1.8 would have been ideal.

 

Without Autolevel the pilot can try to find the perfect setting and if he is really good ends up with 2.0 degrees and then uses the elevator to adjust at intervals. Also unless the pilot has applied perfect trim on all three axis so he can fly 'hands off', he  is holding the stick which causes the elevator, ailerons & rudder to move thus necessitating more frequent adjustment.  These  control surface movements cause a lot more drag than flying with no control surface movements but the trim tab  0.7 degrees away from perfect.

Edited May 11, 2018 by 56RAF_Roblex

[303_Bies]

Wait the moment, the discussion is being blurred.

 

I'm not against unrealistic autolevel autopilot - I'm against max speed, faster than normal, perfectly efficient autolevel autopilot which is being abused in multiplayer to chase/escape using cheaty/not pleasurable way.

 

I didn't start this topic to hear arguments against deleting autolevel autopilot completely (it would be fine for me, i didn't even know this thing existed for 3-4 months, but i respect others).

 

I started it to hear arguments against deleting multiplayer (not singlepleyer) abuse the speed of autopilot - cruise autopilot to let you "take the beer" or deal with other distractions will stay.

Do any arguments against capping cruise speed for autopilot exist?

Because this one thing will solve the problem of abusing autopilot in multiplayer on spot. Just like that.

 

cheers and have a fantastic day

Edited May 11, 2018 by bies

[Frenchy56]

4 hours ago, xvii-Dietrich said:

I agree that having autolevel is a very important feature to have -- even for single-engined aircraft. However, I am disappointed that it is so good and that pilots are punished if they switch it off and try to fly manually.

 

This applies to multi-engined aircraft too. For example, using autolevel is the most efficient way to fly the Ju 52/3m by far ( See Point #5 in this link ). It ignores any stabiliser settings you have (no matter how extreme) and you are always worse off if you try to manually trim the aircraft, including with the correct use of differential power.

 

On a related note, despite having autolevel, there is no Mode 1 Kurssteuerung in the Ju 88 A-4. This keeps the plane steady on a magnetic compass heading, but allows climb/dive. This is an important feature for getting up to high altitude. One of the reasons why there are so few high-alt bombing runs on the servers, is the tedium of holding course while ascending to 6000m.

I can climb fine up to at least 3000m if I trim the Ju-88 properly and maintain the same angle of climb.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Frenchy56

[InProgress]

I think the best option would be make autopilot only works at certain speed. So people wont use it when chasing someone at +600km/h.

[MicEzo]

1 hour ago, bies said:

I started it to hear arguments against deleting multiplayer (not singlepleyer) abuse the speed of autopilot - cruise autopilot to let you "take the beer" or deal with other distractions will stay.

Do any arguments against capping cruise speed for autopilot exist?

Because this one thing will solve the problem of abusing autopilot in multiplayer on spot. Just like that.

and

53 minutes ago, InProgress said:

I think the best option would be make autopilot only works at certain speed. So people wont use it when chasing someone at +600km/h.

That's it.

One simple change, 10 minutes of work and problem disappears.

 

If not the problem will grow even bigger because:

1) More and more players will be aware of this exploit and come to a sad conclusion if they want to compete they are also forced to use this exploit

 

2) In Bodenplatte specific planeset will exaggerate this problem, why? In two awys:

 

A) In Bodenplatte there are no bombers, only fighter/bombers. In this case additional 10-20km/h will be crucial to their whole mission. It will look like that:

- some Mustang will drop his bombs, take the general course to their base, set the autopilot and apply full power. 2km away some patrollig Dora notice the enemy, take enemy's course, set the autopilot and apply full power. Somewhere else all the same but other way around.

Pretty bexciting...

 

B) In Bodenplatte many planes will be able to fly high, the higher the altiltide the bigger advantage you gain using autopilot because of bigger instability of the plane. I have tested the difference between autopilot and efficient manual flight (trimmed, coordinated etc.) At the deck you are gaining about 10 km/h using autopilot. At 6-7 km you are gaining 15-20 km/h. It is when you are focused 100% on flying perfectly efficient, trimmed, coordinated etc. In real life you are loose even more being distracted by enviroment around you. Pretty sad people trying to avoid autopilot are being punished so hard.

Edited May 11, 2018 by MicEzo

[Yakdriver]

hehe i do not think this would work.
Imagine the devs set the autopilot to 385 kph or something.

and now the Ju-52 flier foes "Fook yea! here we go'! Eat my propwash!"
I would go for something in the middle.
Stall speed + 50% or something...? "you can autopilot... but do you really want to?"

[MicEzo]

21 minutes ago, 216_Yakdriver said:

Imagine the devs set the autopilot to 385 kph or something.

Why 385 km/h or something? Just limit the throttle to 70% when on autopilot, that's it.

 

BTW: In custom mission which starts in flight every aircraft starts with different cruise speed, biplane Po-2 and jet powered Me-262 will start in flight mission with the same speed? Po-2 would start being torn apart and 262 would start in a flat spin.

So yes, devs are perfectly able to set different speed for different aircrafts/class of aircrafts.

Edited May 11, 2018 by MicEzo

[Yakdriver]

Yea, that would work.
Another Possibilitzy would be to abandon the notion of "Autopilot."
But Change it to something like "Cruise, Altitude and Heading control"

Cruise: the plane flies as the Handbook says  on cruise for the given altitude: engine settings for manifold, rad temp, proppitch... all that good stuff. With a +/- 5% tolerance...
Altitude: level, variations of +/- 5 meters
Heading: along +/- 2° of the heading when the Button was pushed.

- also available with soime light/minor damage, but not excessively damaged, then cruise control just goes "NNNnnope, not today, kiddo"

[LuftManu]

Add it as a difficulty option:
Autopilot on all planes

 

Planes wich have it should remain with it.

 

My 2 cents.

[303_Bies]

6 minutes ago, 216_Yakdriver said:

- also available with soime light/minor damage, but not excessively damaged, then cruise control just goes "NNNnnope, not today, kiddo"

Great idea. I'm not completely against the system (because of others) but i'm strongly against such an easy exploit of game mechanics in multiplayer. 
 

[1_Robert_]

13 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

Cheating? Some of you people need a reality check... There are several aids in the game, the devs put them there for a reason. Shall we get rid of them all then?

I mean, flying a plane with a mouse? What a cheat, get rid of it!

Wait a minute, we are all cheating. Don't look now fellas, but we aren't really flying a plane, we are staring intently at a few pixels, munching snacks, drinking beer, (this is what real pilots did in combat by the way) and fondling the arse of any girlfriend that happens to pass by...

Unless you are me of course, I have to stroke cats and pat dogs during my many hours of combat flying (hard-core ultra realistic and experten mode)

What the devs really have to do is make an option to disable cats, dogs, kids, wives and girlfriend's so that we can concentrate on real combat flying with beer and snacks!

Right... Now that's out of the way let's look at the real problem... Introducing a code of conduct of decent morals and values that pretend pilots can follow, that might be a start.

To do that requires some self discipline, and that's the crux of the matter, not devs removing useful aids for the game...

Well done