BoBP: Luftwaffe, Dates and Plane Types, Sep 1944 - Mar 1945

[LukeFF]

Maybe IV./JG 27 was rearmed only in February 1945?

I would go with that, yes.

[BlackSix]

Hello, I've a small question about JG 300.

Did this Jagdgeschwader have official name 'Wilde Sau' during WWII?

AFAIK JG 301 had this name...

[Haza]

Gents/Blacksix,

 

I tried to reply in post but it wouldn't allow me.

I have just read a book "The Me262 Stormbird" ISBN 978-0-7603-5735-4, that says Kdo Nowotny, Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder shot down 2 x P-51s on 9 Nov 1944 and he scored the first kill of a B-17 with III./JG-7 on 21 Nov 1944.  Therefore, Kdo Nowotny according to my book was not disbanded on the 8 Nov.

 

In addition, my book says that the same pilot killed a P-38 with Kdo Nowotny on 6 Oct 44.

 

Regards

 

Blacksix, Please feel free to remove post, but I was unable to reply in the original forum topic! SORRY!

 

 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Haza

[BlackSix]

Hello, thanks, I've this book.

I'll check all again when I start to write Kdo Nowotny history for the career.

 

We've fixed issues in this subforum.

Please, try to answer something in this topic.

[BlackSix]

We've fixed issues in this subforum.

Please, try to answer something in this topic.

[Haza]

On 2/18/2018 at 1:02 PM, LukeFF said:

 

Per Green Hearts: First in Combat with the Dora-9:

 

 

The book JG 7 by Manfred Boehme also confirms that 8 November was the unit's last combat sortie:

 

 

As requested re-posted here!

 

I have just read a book "The Me262 Stormbird" ISBN 978-0-7603-5735-4 (Colin D Heaton and Anne-Marie Lewis).  It states the following:

 

Kdo Nowotny, Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder shot down 1 x P-38 on 6 Oct 44.   (Page 266)

Kdo Nowotny, Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder shot down 2 x P-51s on 9 Nov 1944.  (Page 266)

 

Therefore, Kdo Nowotny according to my book was operational before 7 Oct and was not disbanded on the 8 Nov.

 

 

"Nowotny's body was not yet cold when Kommando Nowotny was involved in a vicious three-day running skirmish November 9-11, as Eder claimed two P-51s. The next day, III./JG-7 was formed  and relocated to Lechfield on Novemeber 14 with Major Erich Hohagen in command".  Chapter 15

 

First reported kill for III./JG-7 was Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder shot down 1 x B-17 on 21 Nov 44  (Page 267)

Edited May 17, 2018 by Haza

[DD_Arthur]

2 hours ago, BlackSix said:

We've fixed issues in this subforum.

Please, try to answer something in this topic.

 

Great...thought some thing strange was happening

 

On 5/16/2018 at 9:48 AM, BlackSix said:

Hello, I've a small question about JG 300.

Did this Jagdgeschwader have official name 'Wilde Sau' during WWII?

AFAIK JG 301 had this name...

 

Hi BlackSix.

In the summer of 1943 RAF Bomber Command started to drop strips of 'window' as they approached German radar cover.  At first this was very successful and blinded German radar systems so their nightfighters could not be guided into the approaching bomber streams.

To counter this, within a few days the Germans established 'Wilde Sau' units.   These were Bf109 and Fw190's flown by pilots with night flying experience who took off and attempted to enter the bomber stream and shoot them down with the help of flares and searchlights. Being single-seaters they were not equipped with radar but were dedicated night fighter units.

 

Although their losses were very high - mostly due to night flying accidents - it was successful and the Germans expanded these units. JG300 was the first Wilde Sau unit.

Later on this system was also developed into 'Tame Sau' where the fighters were directed into the bomber stream by radio contact with ground controllers who gave a running commentary over the radio as to where the bomber stream was heading.

 

By the middle of 1944 - due to the growing strength of  USAAF B17/B24 raids - these Wilde Sau units were also pressed into service against daylight bombers.

 

In effect they became All-Weather Interceptors.  Although units like JG300 and JG301 kept the 'Wilde Sau' name, by the time of our Bodenplatte scenerio they were used against everything.

 

Hope this helps    

Edited May 17, 2018 by DD_Arthur

[TP_Silk]

I was trying to post similar information to that of DD_Arthur above. Wilde Sau flights can be thought of as a specific way of operating, much like when US anti-AAA missions became known as 'Wild Weasel' missions about the time of Vietnam.

[=27=Davesteu]

Wilde Sau first and foremost described the tactic. It later became synonymous with the units JG 300/301/302 specially formed to operate correspondingly.
Therefore it shouldn't be confused with official honorable names like JG 2 "Richthofen" or KG 53 "Legion Condor".
It remains to decide whether or not to call all of them "Wilde Sau", like they were in Luftwaffe parlance, or just JG 300/1/2 like officially.

[BlackSix]

Ok, I see, thanks for the info.

I've taken decision to use only official names in the BOBP carrer like "Oesau", "Richthofen", "Udet", "Horst Wessel", "Schlageter", etc.

[LukeFF]

6 hours ago, Haza said:

 

As requested re-posted here!

 

I have just read a book "The Me262 Stormbird" ISBN 978-0-7603-5735-4 (Colin D Heaton and Anne-Marie Lewis).  It states the following:

 

Kdo Nowotny, Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder shot down 1 x P-38 on 6 Oct 44.   (Page 266)

Kdo Nowotny, Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder shot down 2 x P-51s on 9 Nov 1944.  (Page 266)

 

Therefore, Kdo Nowotny according to my book was operational before 7 Oct and was not disbanded on the 8 Nov.

 

 

"Nowotny's body was not yet cold when Kommando Nowotny was involved in a vicious three-day running skirmish November 9-11, as Eder claimed two P-51s. The next day, III./JG-7 was formed  and relocated to Lechfield on Novemeber 14 with Major Erich Hohagen in command".  Chapter 15

 

First reported kill for III./JG-7 was Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder shot down 1 x B-17 on 21 Nov 44  (Page 267)

 

Very good info! @BlackSix, I'd recommend making Kdo. Nowotny appear from October 6 - November 11.

[BlackSix]

We have such info about begin of operations from Jagdgeschwader 7 ‘Nowotny’ by Robert Forsyth:

 

Spoiler

Problems plagued Kommando Nowotny from the start. Despite a somewhat crude training programme, it was found that only 15 pilots – those possessing any experience at all on the Me 262 – were capable of flying the type. By late September, however, the Kommando had some 30 Me 262s. The following month saw the first tentative operations, but in the first half of October, no fewer than ten jets were either destroyed or damaged due to take-off or landing accidents. Nowotny’s pilots, most of them drawn from conventional single-engined fighter units, lacking sufficient training in instrument flying and with only two or three dedicated training flights, found the Me 262 with its effortless speed, short endurance and rapid descent difficult to handle.

 

On its second day of operations, the unit suffered the loss of Oberleutnant Teumer (a veteran of 300+ missions with JG 54, Teumer had claimed 76 kills and been awarded the Knight’s Cross in August 1944) when an engine flamed out and he crashed and burned while landing at Hesepe. That same day, the man who would replace Teumer as leader of 2./Kommando Nowotny, Leutnant Franz Schall, had a lucky escape when his jet crashed on landing at Waggum following a technical fault. It was a stark warning to others that the Me 262 could not be taken for granted.

The Kommando attempted to fly its first operational sortie ‘in force’ on 7 October against one of the largest American daylight bombing raids so far mounted, aimed at oil targets at Pölitz, Ruhland, Merseburg and Lutzkendorf. Taking off from Hesepe, Leutnant Schall and Feldwebel Heinz Lennartz, who had joined the embryonic Ekdo 262 from 5./JG 11, each managed to claim a B-24 shot down, thus bringing home the Kommando’s first victories. However, it would be different for those aircraft operating from Achmer.

 

[Kurfurst]

Given the period of September 44 - April 45, and the case of some JG 27 Gruppen discusses (who had G-14/AS before K-4) it seems to me that a G-14/AS would be very much needed to cover reasonably the many types operated by the Luftwaffe - perhaps as an engine 'mod' for the G-14. You can't have reasonable historical accuracy with low/mid altitude G-14 'standing in'' for the high altitude G-14/AS...

[BlackSix]

At present we've no any plans to do G-14/AS as there won't be any targets for them (Mosquito, B-17/24, etc).

At the same time, I don't want to reduce the career list to those units that had G-14/AS only.

We've the same situation with BOK where I'm forced to simulate late LaGG-3 with the help of early LaGG-3 s.29.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Well the type was important in the Bodenplatte operation itself (second most numerous 109 after the standard G-14), even if it was the high alt optimized version. Hopefully you guys can make it available in the future as a mod for the G-14

Edited May 18, 2018 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[MiloMorai]

Of the Bf109s  taking part in Bodenplatte,

 

29% Bf109G-14/AS

35% Bf109G-14

13% Bf109G-10

23% Bf109K-4

[Poochnboo]

I think you guys make way too much of needing every single sub-type that was ever made on a particular airplane. Is the G-10 so much different from a G14 that it's a game changer? Do we need a certain type because we have the one that had 100 rivets in the rudder, and when are we going to get the one that has 105? 

I prefer the P-51 B/C model over the D. I don't know why, really...just do. But the D model is fine. It's not going to drastically change the way the game is played. I remember how much I enjoyed Janes WW2 fighters. You got 7 airplanes. That was it. Loved that sim. Played it for many years. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Poochnboo

[LukeFF]

6 hours ago, Poochnboo said:

Is the G-10 so much different from a G14 that it's a game changer?

 

Yes, it's quite different from the G-14. Different engine and revised cowling arrangement, for starters.

[E69_geramos109]

On 5/18/2018 at 6:27 PM, BlackSix said:

At present we've no any plans to do G-14/AS as there won't be any targets for them (Mosquito, B-17/24, etc).

At the same time, I don't want to reduce the career list to those units that had G-14/AS only.

We've the same situation with BOK where I'm forced to simulate late LaGG-3 with the help of early LaGG-3 s.29.

Most of the AS version also had the Mw50 (ASM). If there is no need for the AS why there is need for the merlin M70? I can see that mod a good option to fight against P51s, p47s on altitude.

[LukeFF]

19 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Most of the AS version also had the Mw50 (ASM). If there is no need for the AS why there is need for the merlin M70? I can see that mod a good option to fight against P51s, p47s on altitude.

 

Because the Merlin 70 requires no 3D modifications. The AS, on the other hand, does.

[E69_geramos109]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

Because the Merlin 70 requires no 3D modifications. The AS, on the other hand, does.

That is not the reason the Deb Gave us. I dont think is a valid reason to say just becuase requires 3d modelling would be lazyness. Cliped wings also required 3d changes, were less representative than the G14 ASM and they are there modelled so...

Edited May 24, 2018 by E69_geramos109

[LukeFF]

38 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

That is not the reason the Deb Gave us. I dont think is a valid reason to say just becuase requires 3d modelling would be lazyness. Cliped wings also required 3d changes, were less representative than the G14 ASM and they are there modelled so...

 

Dude, you're just going to have to accept the reason @BlackSix gave and move on. Finding something new to bitch about every day here isn't going to get you anywhere.

Edited May 24, 2018 by LukeFF

[E69_geramos109]

6 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Dude, you're just going to have to accept the reason @BlackSix gave and move on. Finding something new to bitch about every day here isn't going to get you anywhere.

I just was asking to the dev. No bitching. You answer me and i gave you my response. Would be better for us not to make a discussion here and letting just the dev to answer. 

Edited May 25, 2018 by E69_geramos109

[BlackSix]

10 hours ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Most of the AS version also had the Mw50 (ASM). If there is no need for the AS why there is need for the merlin M70? I can see that mod a good option to fight against P51s, p47s on altitude.

It was my guess. I don't know the reasons and I don't take part in solving such questions. Moreover, I already regret that I started to discuss this here.

[Kurfurst]

On 5/19/2018 at 1:57 AM, LukeFF said:

 

Yes, it's quite different from the G-14. Different engine and revised cowling arrangement, for starters.

 

Basically its a G-14 model, the difference being having the exact same propeller as the K-4 and a very similar engine cowling as the K-4.  I get that maybe the Devs do not have resources for it atm, but still to me it seems to be an easy one to mod that would give a big boost to squadrons having sensible, historical types first and foremost. 

 

I don't care about the performance etc. since its almost the same as the K-4, but you can't reasonable simulate squadrons equipped with high altitude G-14/AS with medium altitude G-14s as - sticking with the Lagg3 substitute example - it would be similar to substituting MiG-3s with Lagg 3s. They look different and and have an entire different performance regime. See:

 

[BlackSix]

If we don't create G-14/AS units now, then later, if we get AS modification, we'll never be able to add them as it will be too expensive.

I prefer to do it now. First off all, it's a game.

[MiloMorai]

From Aug. '44 to March '45 there was constructed:

2035 Bf109G-14

654 Bf109G-14/U4  (30mm cannon)

1377 Bf109G-14/AS

 

In the same time period, there was 1080 Bf109G-6 constructed.

[Kurfurst]

1 hour ago, BlackSix said:

If we don't create G-14/AS units now, then later, if we get AS modification, we'll never be able to add them as it will be too expensive.

I prefer to do it now. First off all, it's a game.

 

Maybe I misunderstood, but refferring back to your earlier post re:K-4 and introduction dates, are you not making missions for II/JG 27 already?

 

The issue is, that  historically this unit had G-14/AS (and before G-6/AS, but essentially its the same thing) - but no G-14 at all.

 

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg27.html

 

I am wondering if it is possible/feasible for building historical missions to place a "placeholder" for "G14AS" now in the unit historical campaign, which would however still load a normal G-14 in the game until a proper G-14/AS can be made - and then it would be probably easy to modify ("G14AS" would now load G-14/AS model instead of G-14 model)?

[BlackSix]

If there is historical campaign I won't use G-14/AS units anyway, but for the career we can do it and change plane type in the future, it isn't a problem.

[Kurfurst]

Thanks for providing us feedback, BlackSix!

[LukeFF]

6 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

Basically its a G-14 model, the difference being having the exact same propeller as the K-4 and a very similar engine cowling as the K-4.  I get that maybe the Devs do not have resources for it atm, but still to me it seems to be an easy one to mod that would give a big boost to squadrons having sensible, historical types first and foremost. 

 

I don't care about the performance etc. since its almost the same as the K-4, but you can't reasonable simulate squadrons equipped with high altitude G-14/AS with medium altitude G-14s as - sticking with the Lagg3 substitute example - it would be similar to substituting MiG-3s with Lagg 3s. They look different and and have an entire different performance regime. See:

 

Splendid, but I was talking about the G-10.

[sevenless]

AFAIK, with minor exterior differences G5/AS, G6/AS, G14/AS, G10 and K4 pretty much looked the same from the exterior. So once the K4 3D model is finished it should be no big problem to get all into the game with their corresponding performance specs of the different DB engines.

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

Edited May 30, 2018 by sevenless

[BlackSix]

Hello guys,

please, try to help me to find I./JG 77, II./JG 77 and III./JG 77 histories.

AFAIK Osprey and other publishers didn't publish any books about these units and now I can find short articles only(((

[sevenless]

1 hour ago, BlackSix said:

Hello guys,

please, try to help me to find I./JG 77, II./JG 77 and III./JG 77 histories.

AFAIK Osprey and other publishers didn't publish any books about these units and now I can find short articles only(((

 

This should give you a good start:

 

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Jagdgeschwader/JG77-R.htm

 

Sources: 

3. Literatur und Quellen:

Prien/Rodeike/Stemmer/Bock, Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945, mehrere Bände
Tessin, Georg, Verbände und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS im Zweiten Weltkrieg 1939 - 1945, Band 14
Wolfgang Dierich: Die Verbände der Luftwaffe 1935 - 1945 - Gliederungen und Kurzchroniken - Eine Dokumentation, Motorbuch-Verlag 1976
Jochen Prien: Geschichte des Jagdgeschwaders 77 . Einsatz des Jagdgeschwaders 77 von 1939 bis 945. Ein Kriegstagebuch nach Dokumenten, Berichten und Erinnerungen. Teil 1: 1934-1941, Teil 2: 1941-1942, Teil 3: 1942-1943, Teil 4: 1944-1945

 

http://www.ww2.dk/air/jagd/jg77.htm

 

Edited June 1, 2018 by sevenless

[LukeFF]

54 minutes ago, BlackSix said:

Hello guys,

please, try to help me to find I./JG 77, II./JG 77 and III./JG 77 histories.

AFAIK Osprey and other publishers didn't publish any books about these units and now I can find short articles only(((

 

You'll also find brief histories for them in Bodenplatte: The Luftwaffe's Last Hope.

[BlackSix]

23 minutes ago, sevenless said:

This should give you a good start:

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Jagdgeschwader/JG77-R.htm

I've seen it but I'm afraid Google will not be able to translate all texts correctly.

Maybe I'll ask to write these stories our German friends...

Anyway, thank you)

 

13 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

You'll also find brief histories for them in Bodenplatte: The Luftwaffe's Last Hope.

There are very brief histories for the our format, you know

[Kurfurst]

1 hour ago, BlackSix said:

Hello guys,

please, try to help me to find I./JG 77, II./JG 77 and III./JG 77 histories.

AFAIK Osprey and other publishers didn't publish any books about these units and now I can find short articles only(((

 

As always, if you want to find German unit histories, Jochen Prien is your man. His books are extremely well researched and detailed. Many are also have been translated to English.

 

https://www.jagdgeschwader.net/product_info.php/products_id/105

 

Please buy this book before I will. I have too many books. ? 

 

P.S. You might also want to pick up this one. https://www.amazon.de/Jagdfliegerverbände-Deutschen-Luftwaffe-1934-Reichsverteidigung/dp/3942943131/ref=pd_sbs_14_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=8F8S70SV70VF8S7G1N8C

 

 

Edited June 1, 2018 by VO101Kurfurst

[sevenless]

4 minutes ago, BlackSix said:

I've seen it but I'm afraid Google will not be able to translate all texts correctly.

Maybe I'll ask to write these stories our German friends...

Anyway, thank you)

 

Unless someone on the forum has the Prien Books, the site quoted is the best you can get about JG 77. Google is usually quite good translating german-english. You need some editing though for the odd fuck-up.

 

Jochen Prien: Einsatz des Jagdgeschwaders 77 von 1939 bis 1945. Ein Kriegstagebuch nach Dokumenten, Berichten und Erinnerungen. ab Band 3: Geschichte des Jagdgeschwaders 77. 4 Bände. Struve, Eutin 1992–1995;

• Band 1: 1934 bis Mai 1941. 1992, ISBN 3-923457-19-7;
• Band 2: Juni 1941 bis November 1942. 1993, ISBN 3-923457-22-7;
• Band 3: 1942–1943. 1994, ISBN 3-923457-26-X;
• Band 4: 1944–1945. 1995, ISBN 3-923457-29-4.

[BlackSix]

Prien... Yes, I forgot about these books but unfortunately I've no any official budget to order them.

I've tried to work with lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de site and it looks pretty good when translated into English. So I hope I'll do my work.

[Haza]

BlackSix,

 

I've no idea if these links below will help you with your research to compare data.  However, I apologise if you already have it or it is no good!

 

Regards

 

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/Luftwaffe-Units.html

https://www.asisbiz.com/Luftwaffe/jg77.html

https://www.asisbiz.com/Luftwaffe/bstjg77.html

 

 

Aircraft movements for I,II and III

https://www.asisbiz.com/Luftwaffe/bijg77.html

https://www.asisbiz.com/Luftwaffe/biijg77.html

https://www.asisbiz.com/Luftwaffe/biiijg77.html

Edited June 5, 2018 by Haza