Tempest Mark V research

[MiloMorai]

Charles who?

 

  :blush:

 

Sorry  Pierre.

[Rjel]

Thanks for notes, JtD - I think the Tempest is a plane that would probably need a bit of preparation before jumping in and flying. Looks a bit scary for me.

Dammit, we are sim pilots! Jumping in and flying is what we do!!!

[unreasonable]

Dammit, we are sim pilots! Jumping in and flying is what we do!!!

 

You mean jumping in and crashing is what we do.       (Or what I do anyway, unless I have done a little homework first).

[DSR_A-24]

The gyro gun sight was not fitted to the Tempest V during the war.

 

The EZ42 of the Germans was often locked.

 

Don't believe everything that Charles says in his book.

Strange.

 

If it was often locked due to pilot preference than that doesn't matter.

 

The P-51s and P-47s of the 8th Airforce were receiving K-14 gunfights by the fall of 1944. You'd think the Tempest V by 1945 would have been equipped with a gyro sight.

Edited January 31, 2018 by DSR_T-888

[ShamrockOneFive]

Strange.

 

If it was often locked due to pilot preference than that doesn't matter.

 

The P-51s and P-47s of the 8th Airforce were receiving K-14 gunfights by the fall of 1944. You'd think the Tempest V by 1945 would have been equipped with a gyro sight.

 

Not that I'm aware of and I'm not sure why either.

 

The Tempest V did get the actual gunsight piper projected right onto the windscreen though. Very clean sight picture.

[ZachariasX]

  :blush:

 

Sorry  Pierre.

Let‘s say it should suffice to read books rather believing them. My posts were just lesser known stories that are part of the (by far) most profilic Tempest pilot account. Technical reference looks different. But both are data in their own way.

[ZachariasX]

Strange.

If it was often locked due to pilot preference than that doesn't matter.

The P-51s and P-47s of the 8th Airforce were receiving K-14 gunfights by the fall of 1944. You'd think the Tempest V by 1945 would have been equipped with a gyro sight.

If you look how bulky the gunsight is in the Spitfire (and how anoying that most be there, further obstructing the little forward vision you have), then it was obviously a good idea to hide that box under the dash. But with such a custom mount, you can hardly fit other types. When you compare the dash of the Tempest V with the II (that had a gyro sight) then you see what they had to change in the dashboard.

[AlexVoicu]

From the update posted on Facebook i understand the development team is gathering reference material on the Tempest.

I did the 3D work on the Hawker Tempest in the original Il2 series (textures by Hammerd) so i have a lot of reference material about the plane, cockpit and performance. Let me know if you need it, i would be glad to help.

[Talisman]

The source below states that the Tempest V cannons could be fired in pairs, outboard cannons together or inner cannons together, as well as all four cannon together.  I hope the developers simulate this historical feature.

 

Also, the same source states inboard cannons load out was 162 rounds of ammunition and outer cannons 156 rounds of ammunition.

 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NFTEPiyEiSsC&pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=Tempest+V+engine+limits&source=bl&ots=ROQuqrOKL6&sig=lKzYeCFFWBVS9MtauNN9MVPABys&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwix99XA-6fZAhUBC8AKHVm4BAkQ6AEIgAEwCw#v=onepage&q=Tempest%20V%20engine%20limits&f=false

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

Edited February 17, 2018 by 56RAF_Talisman

[MiloMorai]

Good read on the Tempest Talisman, thanks.

[Reckoner_]

Hello,

 

I found the digitalized version of this document freely and fully visualizable for the Tempest V w/ Saber IIA engine.

 

Here is just the Table of Content to give a rough idea, but I can already tell you that contains many useful info on general performances, fuel consumption, engine limitations, and many details that can be added on the "Flight model" (I'll link some examples).

 

Unfortunately nothing on Guns or Ordinance in this document, but I do recall that I read somewhere that it could carry 200 rpg (wartime) as well as bombs and Rockets ( 8x RP-3 60lb ).

 

 

A P 2458C Pilot's Notes For Tempest V Sabre IIA Engine

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

44. General Flying iii) Change of trim

 

47. Diving i)

Edited February 17, 2018 by Reckoner_

[unreasonable]

You can get the hard copy of that from Amazon for a reasonable price - look for Crecy Publishing - if you like to have it nestling in your hand, as I do. 

[Talisman]

Tempest V - Kermit Weeks - current restoration project in USA :

 

Lots of good detailed information on current restoration.

 

Latest update is 19 Jan 2018.

 

http://www.hawkertempest.se/index.php/survivors/2015-01-19-19-22-20/ej6932

 

Talisman

Edited February 18, 2018 by 56RAF_Talisman

[Talisman]

Check out this information, please see link below, on the Tempest V engine.

http://www.hawkertempest.se/index.php/contributions/stories/130-the-greatest-engines-of-all-time-by-ljk-setright

This is an interesting extract regarding endurance testing:

Nor was that 3,750bhp service a typical combat rating that might be maintained for only 15 minutes. It was a figure that could be sustained hour after hour, day after day: Napier tested the Sabre at that rating for 175 hours non-stop. The company's usual endurance test was more varied: 10 hours at cruise rating, three hours at climb rating, one hour at take-off power, and one hour at combat maximum, with the whole 15-hour cycle being repeated non-stop over and over again.

What this perhaps proved incidentally was the greater suitability of the sleeve valve for a liquid-cooled engine than for the air-cooled type, for Bristol was never able to display such results.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[MiloMorai]

If the Sabre didn't start after 6 tries (only 6 cartridges for the Coffman) all 48 spark plugs had to be removed and dried off and oil had to be squirted into all 24 cylinders. (the excess fuel had removed the lubricating oil)

[CrazyDuck]

On 18. 1. 2018 at 1:24 AM, No.610/ACGWoza said:

Good comparison document on the Tempest V with various AC; 

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/tempest/tempestafdu.html

 

 

Hehe, love this part:

 

Turning Circle 
47. The Tempest is slightly better, the Me.109G being embarrassed by its slots opening near the stall. 

[Trooper117]

The Sabre engine has a very, very distinctive roar... completely different from any other engine.

I hope our Dev's can  implement that into the game 

[MiloMorai]

Yup, locals near Tempest bases complained of the noise of engine run-ups at night. Disturbed their sleep.

[-332FG-Gordon200]

Here's a line from an email I received from Ross Sharpe, former curator for RAF Museum.

Quote

. ‘If You Must Have the Best’ — Buy a Hawker Tempest Mk V. 7 tons of wildly accelerating heaven (2,400hp Napier Sabre engine), out-dove P-47s. Fw 190s regarded as ‘an easy kill, particularly if they tried to dive’ — you dive a Tempest with the throttle firmly SHUT, or you overtake whatever is in front of you. 4 x short-barreled Hispano cannon inside a superb wing. Feared by Me 262 pilots (no, really — revealed under interrogation)

We were discussing armament of WW2 RAF fighters at the time. More of his reply in my comment to a previous thread ~ 

 

[HBPencil]

10 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

The Sabre engine has a very, very distinctive roar... completely different from any other engine.

I hope our Dev's can  implement that into the game 

A great sound, just a pity the audio recording equipment of the time wasn't so good

 

[Talisman]

Sounds of Tempest Mk V taxing, take-off, fly-bys:

http://www.hawkertempest.se/index.php/multimedia/sound-files

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

[Trooper117]

Lol, exactly the same as the clip above... 

[Aero*Bohemio]

Sorry if this has already been answered, but what Tempest Mk V are we getting? 11lbs? 13lbs?

[ShamrockOneFive]

On 5/18/2018 at 1:03 AM, ECV56_Chimango said:

Sorry if this has already been answered, but what Tempest Mk V are we getting? 11lbs? 13lbs?

 

We don't know but as I wrote at the start, the most common configuration from September to March is +9lbs of boost.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

6 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

We don't know but as I wrote at the start, the most common configuration from September to March is +9lbs of boost.

Tempest was fitted with Sabre IIb with aircraft produced from September 1944 onwards which was able to produce +11psi boost with 130 grade

[ShamrockOneFive]

Interesting information. I remember digging this stuff up before and I don't know why I missed that.

 

So, potentially the +11lbs boost would be the configuration that we'll be seeing. If so... a real monster. There were a few Tempests setup to accommodate the +13lbs with the special Rotol propeller which I wouldn't expect to see but who knows.

[Talon_]

On 7/3/2018 at 2:43 PM, No.41_Glen said:

If it's 11 lbs in BOBP, I will buy it.

 

All Tempests were +11lbs by the time they moved to the continent. They were all uprated for V-1 chasing which all Tempest squadrons participated in.

[AlexVoicu]

1 hour ago, No.41_Glen said:

Hello Alex, I'm Glen. Looking forward to your contribution for Tempest again!

Hi Glen ! I sent all my reference material to the development team. I hope we'll see some work in progress renders soon !

[SunCup]

Hi,

Any estimated date of release ?

[ShamrockOneFive]

On 7/14/2018 at 11:48 AM, BlackJackSunCup-06 said:

Hi,

Any estimated date of release ?

None. We know its in 3D model development but we don't know at what stage.

 

There are other types that are likely ahead of it in development... the P-47D-28, Bf109K-4 and FW190D-9 may all arrive before it.

[Tuna]

On 1/17/2018 at 8:24 AM, NZTyphoon said:

The "go to" guy for research on the Typhoon and Tempest is Chris Thomas, who has studied these aircraft for years. According to Chris Thomas and Christopher Shores'  The Typhoon & Tempest Story the ammo capacity was 200 rpg: the Tempest V Series 1 used the long barrelled Hispano II, whereas the Series 2s were fitted with the Hispano Vs. Other improvements on the Series 2s were booster tabs on the ailerons and the wings were reinforced, plumbed and wired to accept drop tanks, bombs or rockets, albeit few Tempest Vs used bombs or rockets during WW 2. About 50 Series 1s were built, and quickly superseded in frontline units by the Series 2s.

The Tempest Vs used the Sabre IIA, that could be boosted to +9 lbs, but many IIAs were modified to IIBs that allowed the boost to be increased to +11 lbs.

Clostermann's "Le Grande Charles" SN222 was a Tempest V Series 2 with (more than likely) the Sabre IIB that produced a maximum of 2,420 hp (2,454 CV) @ +11 lbs boost: no Sabre IIs achieved anything like 2,950 CV (2909 hp) in operational service. The Sabre VII was never fitted to an operational Tempest V.

 

For interest, attached are Flight magazine articles on the Sabre II (1944)

Napier Sabre II 1944.pdf

and Sabre VII (1945

Napier Sabre VII Flight 1945 a.pdf

so where did the author get the exact ammo capacity of tempest, did he metioned it ? 200 rounds is a very common value  among books and web but i had never seen the original source. i  once desired this book very much but it's too hard for me to get one

[Kurfurst]

On 5/25/2018 at 8:33 PM, RoflSeal said:

Tempest was fitted with Sabre IIb with aircraft produced from September 1944 onwards which was able to produce +11psi boost with 130 grade

 

This document leaves no doubt that that +11 lbs was cleared for the Sabre II by M.A.P. only for the duration of the V-1 menace (i.e. summer 1944) and was then reverted to +9 lbs in September 1944, after the V-1 raids were over.

 

It appears +11 lbs was more of an 'act of desperation', valid for a limited scope (V-1 hunting) rather than an officially sanctioned boost for normal operations.

 

 

 

[MiloMorai]

6 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

This document leaves no doubt that that +11 lbs was cleared for the Sabre II by M.A.P. only for the duration of the V-1 menace (i.e. summer 1944) and was then reverted to +9 lbs in September 1944, after the V-1 raids were over.

 

It appears +11 lbs was more of an 'act of desperation', valid for a limited scope (V-1 hunting) rather than an officially sanctioned boost for normal operations.

 

 

 

 

'Intension' is not the same as doing so.

[ZachariasX]

6 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

It appears +11 lbs was more of an 'act of desperation', valid for a limited scope (V-1 hunting) rather than an officially sanctioned boost for normal operations.

 

The document you posed also states that indeed +11 lbs were used with 130 octane, as stated in the PN above. What is the date of the document? The power output of he Sabre was constantly increased. I seriously doubt that they would be officially downrate the engine once they were on the continent. It goes against logic and against first hand accounts.

[Kurfurst]

19 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

 

The document you posed also states that indeed +11 lbs were used with 130 octane, as stated in the PN above. What is the date of the document? The power output of he Sabre was constantly increased. I seriously doubt that they would be officially downrate the engine once they were on the continent. It goes against logic and against first hand accounts.

 

Regardless of what may seem logical or not, it is a fact that the RAF decided to revert to +9 lbs once the V-1 menace was over. 'Tis what it says, black on white. Its for the Sabre IIA I might add. The document is dated sometime September 1944. Its part of a document that says that all UK based Squadrons shall revert to 130 grade anyway after the V-1 threat has ended.

 

Now it makes sense given how poorly the Sabre was constructed and how unreliable it was. + 11 was definietely pushing things in an already very unreliable engine, which may have been OK for operations above / near the British Isles, when pressed with the need to intercept the very fast V-1s by all means, but not OK when over enemy territory, in operations. Now that it could do with 130 grade at +11 is not so shocking, the Sabre, being a big engine with high rpm, could do with far less extreme manifold pressure than for example Merlins.

 

Were Sabre IIBs an exception? Perhaps, but how many of them were in operations? Judging that production started only in September, I would excpect Sabre II As produced from long before to be the majority and the Sabre II Bs the minority in Tempest units.

Edited August 15, 2018 by VO101Kurfurst

[Talon_]

Unmodified Sabre IIAs were intended to be reverted however this is meaningless as by the start of our campaign they had all been upgraded to Sabre IIB equivalence with Mod No Sabre 158/297/433/435 therefore allowing them to maintain +11lbs on 130 grade.

 

Of the Sabre's reliability, in the final 6 months of the war it was the most reliable liquid cooled piston engine in Allied service. By the end of hostilities there had been manufactured 3,000 surplus engines earmarked to replace existing engines that were simply never needed.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Talon_

[Kurfurst]

Sure sure.

[Talon_]

4 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Sure sure.

 

Thankyou for this compelling argument.

I would also like to point out that the Tempest on the alternative BoBp box art is a Sabre IIB series aircraft.

 

[Kurfurst]

That is a very nice piece of art. 

[MiloMorai]

1 hour ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

Regardless of what may seem logical or not, it is a fact that the RAF decided to revert to +9 lbs once the V-1 menace was over. 'Tis what it says, black on white. Its for the Sabre IIA I might add. The document is dated sometime September 1944. Its part of a document that says that all UK based Squadrons shall revert to 130 grade anyway after the V-1 threat has ended.

 

Now it makes sense given how poorly the Sabre was constructed and how unreliable it was. + 11 was definietely pushing things in an already very unreliable engine, which may have been OK for operations above / near the British Isles, when pressed with the need to intercept the very fast V-1s by all means, but not OK when over enemy territory, in operations. Now that it could do with 130 grade at +11 is not so shocking, the Sabre, being a big engine with high rpm, could do with far less extreme manifold pressure than for example Merlins.

 

Were Sabre IIBs an exception? Perhaps, but how many of them were in operations? Judging that production started only in September, I would excpect Sabre II As produced from long before to be the majority and the Sabre II Bs the minority in Tempest units.

No the document says 'intension to reduce'.. Whether that happened or not is not stated.