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G6 vs La5fn

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Yeah I agree with this, with a slightly heavier 109 and a more powerful La5 intuitively (based the current differences) I would say that the best the FN can hope for is parity in this regard.

Have I been wrong in assuming there was also a 200kg weight reduction between vanilla la5 and Fn?

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It has removed the wingtanks at least, I'm not sure if there was notable weight reduction on the airframe itself as well?

 

In any case I don't usually consider DF capability at 100% fuel, most people already remove the fuel that those tanks account for with the current La5 in MP.

Edited by Windmills

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Your right, my brain showing it's age again. A quick google gives roughly the same weight between versions (~60kg less loaded for the Fn thanks to wood spar exchanged for metal and removed wing tanks) Not sure where I got the specific "200" number from.

Edited by a_radek

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As far as I know Metal spar FN was really only late 1944 series, basis for La-7

 

1943 production series 2 FN would not have this type of late wing in game

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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From the experience i have on servers and the way Il2 is played now.
The 109 is going to be a match for the Fn only if has the alt advantage and you are near 4k alt to escape if you fail.
If you are in a 109 and you are attacked by a fn you are so [Edited].
So to prevent that massive attacks the red player make in clouds over objectives will be a difficult task for thw blue side because that descoordinate tactic is more favourable to reds. If you engage a low combat and other red appears by because you are not going to outrun them. You cant even outdive a yak1 69 series so...
Lets see what happens with the fisics because current La5 roll rate is quite optimistic and turn rate in every speed is going to be superior also. And now the trimable stab is so broken for 109 pilots to do something so...

Edited by Bearcat
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The FN will not turn into a magical turnfighter, it might roll pretty fast but in the wingloading compartment it still lacks. If you can drag it into a turning fight the chances should be on your side.

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As far as I know Metal spar FN was really only late 1944 series, basis for La-7

 

1943 production series 2 FN would not have this type of late wing in game

 

Cheers Dakpilot

I see, same weight then, unless both at 100% fuel.

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The FN will not turn into a magical turnfighter, it might roll pretty fast but in the wingloading compartment it still lacks. If you can drag it into a turning fight the chances should be on your side.

 

Against a Bf 109 F4 sure ... but against a G6 not so much. Here are some wing loadings:

Bf 109 F4 - 36.8 lb/ft^2 (source: calculated from dev diary #123 data)

La-5 FN - 38.0 lb/ft^2 (source: wikipedia)

Bf 109 G2 - 38.1 lb/ft^2 (source: calculated from dev diary #123 data)

Bf 109 G4 - 38.3 lb/ft^2 (source: calculated IL2 BoS gamepedia data)

Bf 109 G6 - 40.0 lb/ft^2 (source: wikipedia)

 

So the La-5 FN should equal or out turn any of the Gustavs. In particular it should out turn a G6, and IL-2 Compare also agrees, for all speeds.

Edited by Tomsk

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I see, same weight then, unless both at 100% fuel.

 

 

There would be differences as there were certainly other changes, but really one has to consider different series FN and not consider FN type as generic

 

off topic, but realistically how many 109F4 would have been still flying on Eastern front in 43, production stopped in may 42

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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Against a Bf 109 F4 sure ... but against a G6 not so much. Here are some wing loadings:

Bf 109 F4 - 36.8 lb/ft^2 (source: calculated from dev diary #123 data)

La-5 FN - 38.0 lb/ft^2 (source: wikipedia)

Bf 109 G2 - 38.1 lb/ft^2 (source: calculated from dev diary #123 data)

Bf 109 G4 - 38.3 lb/ft^2 (source: calculated IL2 BoS gamepedia data)

Bf 109 G6 - 40.0 lb/ft^2 (source: wikipedia)

 

So the La-5 FN should equal or out turn any of the Gustavs. In particular it should out turn a G6, and IL-2 Compare also agrees, for all speeds.

There is more to turn rate than simply wingloading. Power/weight ratio is hugely important for sustained turn rate, and here the La-5FN absolutely crushes any model of Bf 109 we currently have and the G6 as well (at low altitude)

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There is more to turn rate than simply wingloading. Power/weight ratio is hugely important for sustained turn rate, and here the La-5FN absolutely crushes any model of Bf 109 we currently have and the G6 as well (at low altitude)

 

Agree completely, but was just pointing out even on wing loading alone it has the advantage :)

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Against a Bf 109 F4 sure ... but against a G6 not so much. Here are some wing loadings:

Bf 109 F4 - 36.8 lb/ft^2 (source: calculated from dev diary #123 data)

La-5 FN - 38.0 lb/ft^2 (source: wikipedia)

Bf 109 G2 - 38.1 lb/ft^2 (source: calculated from dev diary #123 data)

Bf 109 G4 - 38.3 lb/ft^2 (source: calculated IL2 BoS gamepedia data)

Bf 109 G6 - 40.0 lb/ft^2 (source: wikipedia)

 

So the La-5 FN should equal or out turn any of the Gustavs. In particular it should out turn a G6, and IL-2 Compare also agrees, for all speeds.

 

Wing loading alone means nothing, the Bf-109 by comparison features a more effective higher AR wing planform leading to a lower span loading and thus Cdi, resulting in less drag for any given amount of lift.

 

Thus I'd expect a rather similar turn rate between the G6 and 5FN.

Edited by Panthera

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Wing loading alone means nothing, the Bf-109 by comparison features a more effective higher AR wing planform leading to a lower span loading and thus Cdi, resulting in less drag for any given amount of lift.

 

Thus I'd expect a rather similar turn rate between the G6 and 5FN.

I do agree with you aspect ratio plays It's part. Still imho I'd assume wingloading in the case of how fast you can do complete circles really is very significant. I mean, spitfire Ar/wingloading, no slats, no flaps.

 

Looking forward to these devs interpretation of the FN. Though ill be in a 39 regardless.

Edited by a_radek

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I do agree with you aspect ratio plays It's part. Still imho I'd assume wingloading in the case of how fast you can do complete circles really is very significant. I mean, spitfire Ar/wingloading, no slats, no flaps.

 

Looking forward to these devs interpretation of the FN. Though ill be in a 39 regardless.

 

Not just the AR but the span loading is important due to how a wing generates lift (think of the aircraft riding on a cylindrical tube of air), so eventhough the Spitfire has a rather low AR it also has very low wing loading and span loading (11 m wing span) to make up for this lower AR.

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Wing loading alone means nothing, the Bf-109 by comparison features a more effective higher AR wing planform leading to a lower span loading and thus Cdi, resulting in less drag for any given amount of lift.

 

Thus I'd expect a rather similar turn rate between the G6 and 5FN.

Not with the La-5FN having such a huge power/weight advantage at low altitude.

 

As I said earlier: The G6 might be able to pull sharper angles for a short while, but below 2K and arguably up to 4K the FN should win out in sustained turn - and consequently in a prolonged turn fight - simply because it has much more power with a similar wingloading.

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One thing to keep in mind is that on many servers it's not like the La-5FN is going to be available in large quantity.

 

Going with WoL as an example, I fully expect the FNs to have limited quantities on most but the latest maps (late '43, early '44), much like how the Yak-1bs (and Spitfires) are limited.

 

To be honest, I think the chief worry from the LW should be from the rest of the Kuban hardware, most of which will be far less limited than the La-5FN. While none will have as dramatic an improvement as the FN, the inclusion of the Yak-7b and P-39 will definitely narrow the performance gap (though, as has been said, the LW will still maintain the E advantage in general, and thus remain able to dictate the engagements).

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True. While the G-6 will be readily available in larger quantities, given that it was the mainstay of the Luftwaffe for a long time.

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True. While the G-6 will be readily available in larger quantities, given that it was the mainstay of the Luftwaffe for a long time.

 

G-6 was available from end of June

 

FN from end of July in Kuban scenario

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

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Honestly, if you look at the numbers of aircraft both sides had in all these battles; most servers have more fighters available than they should *in general*, irrespective of type.

 

Bombers and ground attackers should outnumber fighters of all types.

 

I wouldn't worry if a server has more LA5FN's than it should; because chances are that it has more of every type available than it "should".

Edited by hrafnkolbrandr

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Why people complain so much... I am fine if the red side have a better plane(historical and not overmodeled or buffed to maintain balance) if is historical accurate, my focke wulf will still piss them when I want.

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Why people complain so much... I am fine if the red side have a better plane(historical and not overmodeled or buffed to maintain balance) if is historical accurate, my focke wulf will still piss them when I want.

 

It's a flight sim forum. Complaining is traditional! :cool:

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Why people complain so much... I am fine if the red side have a better plane(historical and not overmodeled or buffed to maintain balance) if is historical accurate, my focke wulf will still piss them when I want.

 

 

Umm ... is that because you believe the 190 A-3 and A-5 will somehow outclass the La-5 FN or, despite any disadvantage resulting from the introduction of the FN, you believe your piloting skills are such that you  can out-fly any and all opponents online, or do you have a way of manipulating the performance of individual aircraft in the game?

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off topic, but realistically how many 109F4 would have been still flying on Eastern front in 43, production stopped in may 42

 

The Hungarians were about the only ones left flying them by that time. 

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Yes F4 are the best me109 and they are too overabundant on the servers. Kinda miss the germans using g2. usually only noobs take G2 and everyone else auto defaults to an f4.

 

f4 production stopped in may 1942? after that only G produced?

Edited by Max_Damage

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f4 production stopped in may 1942? after that only G produced?

 

First Gustavs produced in Feb 42

 

Main production of G2 took over from F4 in May 42, last run of F4 manufactured were Trop versions as far as I know

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

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Umm ... is that because you believe the 190 A-3 and A-5 will somehow outclass the La-5 FN or, despite any disadvantage resulting from the introduction of the FN, you believe your piloting skills are such that you can out-fly any and all opponents online, or do you have a way of manipulating the performance of individual aircraft in the game?

You are considering only machines but not pilot skill, I have no problem defeating you if you have a superior plane but don't know how to use it, you think I will fall into your game of maneuver and turn turd fights, but I am not, and I know how to exploit your weakness. That plane is not immortal and not superior to me at the height I fly =), and If I see you below me I will crush you in dive speed and you will never knew what hit you. German pilots tactics, they killed superior planes with superior tactics and pilots.

Edited by SJ_Butcher

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Even with the La-5FN the Fw 190 will remain the overall best fighter in the sim viewed as a sum of its parts.

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You are considering only machines but not pilot skill, I have no problem defeating you if you have a superior plane but don't know how to use it, you think I will fall into your game of maneuver and turn turd fights, but I am not, and I know how to exploit your weakness. That plane is not immortal and not superior to me at the height I fly =), and If I see you below me I will crush you in dive speed and you will never knew what hit you. German pilots tactics, they killed superior planes with superior tactics and pilots.

What a load of codswallop.

 

Come on berloga my friend- I'd love to see you getting eviscerated (or butchered if you rather?).

Edited by boaty_McBoatface

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What a load of codswallop.

 

Come on berloga my friend- I'd love to see you getting eviscerated (or butchered if you rather?).

Where is the nonsense? I think I am pretty good at this sim, and I stopped playing the old 1946 since 5 years, but nothing have changed, I keep my skills and gunnery pretty well, I was a dedicated focke wulf virtual pilot and I knew how to exploit it strengths even when the plane sucked in that sim, now we have a much better bird and it is easier to maneuver and kill for me =), my last days were in the Ghost Skies campaign =)

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Ultimately the main german advantage will remain: they have the airplanes that perform best at high alt, and that can get TO that high alt the fastest. This means that, in a pure sanitized environment, the LW will continue to have the initiative and dictate the engagements. Against good LW pilots, engaging them when they have that E advantage will continue to be very perilous, even if you're not alone (and if you're in a team, you better know how to work together in a way so that one of your teammates gets the E advantage, otherwise they can still just swoop into you at will).

 

Fortunately, reality is rarely pure and sanitized, and there are plenty of reasons why that G6 (or 190) will have to come down from space into the weeds (or even just mid altitude). And it is in THOSE scenarios that the La-5FN will make a significant difference (as will the new VVS fighters coming in Kuban): at the very least, they will narrow the margin of superiority to the point where the LW will have to work a lot harder to get out of trouble and get to safety again.

 

So it will be very interesting when BoK comes out, and the fights around tactical objectives will be significantly more dangerous for the LW, whereas there will be little difference for those on jagerhunt missions, or for whoever on the VVS side tries to play in the LW's arena. :)

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"my plane will crush your plane" ...  hah..

 

after the release the MP gaming scene will return back to its normal "i'm gonna sneak up on you" type of a play where even I16 can outshine anything provided with the proper levels of sneakiness.

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Where is the nonsense? I think I am pretty good at this sim, and I stopped playing the old 1946 since 5 years, but nothing have changed, I keep my skills and gunnery pretty well, I was a dedicated focke wulf virtual pilot and I knew how to exploit it strengths even when the plane sucked in that sim, now we have a much better bird and it is easier to maneuver and kill for me =), my last days were in the Ghost Skies campaign =)

 

 

 

:good:  :crazy:

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Even with the La-5FN the Fw 190 will remain the overall best fighter in the sim viewed as a sum of its parts.

The 190 is not going to have any advantage over the fn so..

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Even with the La-5FN the Fw 190 will remain the overall best fighter in the sim viewed as a sum of its parts.

 

 

The 190 A series is many things but its not a high altitude fighter; unlike the Bf 109.  The A series is a low to mid altitude machine.  Although the A series has a reasonable turn of speed at the upper edge of its effective fighting height, it's ability to maneuver is strictly limited in my experience.  The Yak and even the La-5 are both quite capable (in a co-alt fight) of neutralizing an A-3 at  any altitude you care to name.  You can often escape in a dive at the point where the enemy gains an advantage but that's not going to be the case for very much longer - not if the existing rolling performance of the La-5 is anything to go by. 

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The 190 is not going to have any advantage over the fn so..

 

Read his post again, he's not saying the 190 is strictly better than the FN.

 

Not every opponent the A5 will face will be an FN after the patch, it will be pretty much the rarest plane with its intro date on historical servers. Even for the few missions it will be available, not everyone will be flying it.

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The 190 is not going to have any advantage over the fn so..

Easy engine management

 

Smooth, effective controls at any speed

 

Better acceleration

 

Better dive performance

 

Higher maximum allowed air speed

 

Heavier armament

 

Larger ammo supply

 

Longer range and endurance

 

More versatile

 

Better medium-high altitude performance

 

Better gun sight

 

Guarantee that you can get out of the plane if you need to bail

 

 

Nope.... ....not a single advantage to the 190....

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I love how so many people are so sure about exactly how the La-5FN will outperform everything. Almost as if just the act of them displaying such attributes as prophecy, that will ensure that the devs will adhere to their underlying requests and turn the plane into a Russian wonder weapon. :wacko:

 

I'm sure the plane will be great, but.. How about we just wait and see how the FN will fly once the Devs (the real pros) do their job?

 

No need to puff our chests out yet. :lol:

Edited by Warpig

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I love how so many people are so sure about exactly how the La-5FN will outperform everything. Almost as if just the act of them displaying such attributes, will ensure that the devs will adhere to their underlying requests and turn the plane into a Russian wonder weapon. :wacko:

 

I'm sure the plane will be great, but.. How about we just wait and see how the FN will fly once the Devs (the real pros) do their job?

 

 

The La-5 we have in the game is essentially just a LaGG 3 with a radial tacked on the front.

 

If you can find me a authentic reference document that specifically states that the LaGG 3 had a better rolling performance than a Bf 109, I'll happily gift a plane to someone.  I'm betting you won't find such a document.  And for the record, putting a radial on an existing airframe, with a lackluster roll-rate, won't magically turn it into a 190.  Not in the real world it won't.

 

The jury is out on the FN.  We have seen this aircraft modeled in previous sims and the results have been 'interesting' to say the least.  I really hope they do this one right.  Time will tell. 

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