Jump to content

So, Tank Crew stuff. What exactly are we getting?


AndyJWest
 Share

Recommended Posts

Worry not Fliegel, even now your gunner can die and you just sit there as driver and can't do anything. So no one will shoot you back from burning tank :P I just want tanks not to explode all the time. Imagine someone kill crew and tank is "dead" but you don't know it, you can keep shooting until you are sure it's destroyed or ignore it and risk that they are all dead ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm struggling to see how I would get more than 5 minutes out of the tank gameplay, with the points made already (infantry/environment/AI) possibly conspiring to be too much in the way of negatives.

 

 

Yesterday I went for a 1.5 hours drive in a T-34 around Kuban on Coconuts server, trying to intercept an incoming convoy. Sadly after 1.5 hours  (~50 km) I ran into water and drowned when getting too close to the sea.. :o 

Was a hell of a fun though. Also shot down a Stuka with my maingun :P

 

There are a few things that would need fine tuning for tanks to become really great (more detailed damage, commanders position, AI detection, Forrests as an obstacle, maybe landscape refinements) but they are already quite good. Also its just so nice to be able to explore these maps, you don't really get to appreciate them until you drove around them with a tank!

Edited by 216th_Jordan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mitthrawnuruodo

The player vehicles will be far more detailed than the AI vehicles we currently have in game. It is safe to assume that the AI vehicles will be upgraded as well.

 

However, there will be much more than just the ability to control tanks. A new Kursk map designed with ground vehicles in mind will be included. There will likely be missions as well. Therefore, the payment provides about as much content as the previous titles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm interested to hear what the developers plan to do with actual gameplay, as I can see some disadvantages that may be present.

 

Currently if the player is immobilised for any reason, they must quit and respawn/restart.  A broken track, damaged gun or jammed turret is as good as dead as far as gameplay is concerned.  So is a loss of ammo or fuel.  Despite being otherwise intact and still in the fight, you will have to quit out and begin the long schlepp from the depot back to the combat area again. 

 

This would be frustrating and time wasting from a gameplay perspective.  If you engage some enemy tanks for example and emerge victorious, even a minor degree of damage to weapon or running gear will take you out of the game and make it necessary to head back to the start, just like they have to.  Any ground or territory you won will have been lost.  Or if the action shifts even a little further away, you won't be able to take part.  It will be rinse and repeat - and hope you come through in pristine condition and ammo to spare next time.

 

In reality an armoured vehicle will be refuelled and rearmed in the field and potentially be out there for weeks and months.  Damage to running gear and weaponry will also be repaired on the spot to a large extent.  Fuel and services came to them, not the other way around like with aircraft.

 

So I wonder if the developers have considered this.   Would there be some sort of medic-class with willing players in Berge-panzers and fuel trucks that shadow an armoured spearhead.  Ready to repair and replenish their comrades in exchange for points.  Perhaps the tanks will have a number of "lives".  Or maybe ammo and Repair tokens arranged over the landscape for players to pick up, like some first-person shooter.  Or will the Devs prefer to that players maintain their vehicles with a system of Micro-Transactions? 

 

I'd be interested to know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TG-55Panthercules

I think some sort of tank maintenance/repair/recovery mechanism would be great - it would certainly put a premium on your side controlling the battle area after an encounter (the support vehicles couldn't survive to approach and recover/repair the tanks unless the area remained secured).

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mitthrawnuruodo

I think that repairs will not be much of a concern once lines of sight are fixed and damage models are finalized.

 

Then, the tank that shoots first will emerge unscathed. Currently, tanks trade blows until one is destroyed, usually leaving the survivor heavily damaged.

 

I expect it will be an ‘all or nothing’ situation: any shots that penetrate a vehicle will often be catastrophic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that repairs will not be much of a concern once lines of sight are fixed and damage models are finalized.

 

Then, the tank that shoots first will emerge unscathed. Currently, tanks trade blows until one is destroyed, usually leaving the survivor heavily damaged.

 

I expect it will be an ‘all or nothing’ situation: any shots that penetrate a vehicle will often be catastrophic.

 

I'm not sure I follow what you mean.  What if your opponent only damaged one of your tracks, or caused your gun to be disabled?  Or if a near miss from a bomb or anti-tank gun caused you some minor damage that could normally be repaired in the field?   Would you consider the penalty of restarting necessarily be identical to the person whose tank and virtual life was completely destroyed? 

Edited by Feathered_IV
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yea, without going the unrealistic route of WT with repair timers of 40 seconds without the crew getting out we have a real problem to solve gameplay wise. Without any changes to the current system it would be no different from our situations we run into now where we have to just exit the tank and re-spawn. Personally if AI can be utilized to bring a truck to your position, or if those ground crews can be manned by actual players then the gameplay will still suffer because of the amount of time it will take for the whole process to work. 

 

Honestly now that I think about it the gameplay will shine greatest in single player and coop game modes where re-spawns wont need to be balanced or break the game if they are near where you were last dispatched. Multiplayer PVP is a whole new animal and is where re-spawning 50 feet back from where you got hit starts to break gameplay. It's going to be a tough problem to crack.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mitthrawnuruodo

I'm not sure I follow what you mean.  What if your opponent only damaged one of your tracks, or caused your gun to be disabled?  Or if a near miss from a bomb or anti-tank gun caused you some minor damage that could normally be repaired in the field?   Would you consider the penalty of restarting necessarily be identical to the person whose tank and virtual life was completely destroyed? 

I was trying to say that 'realistic' repairs do not really fit into the game's tank engagements that will last ~1 hour. A tank is not equipped to fix anything more severe than a broken track in this amount of time. Penetrating hits should usually cause damage that is irreparable until after the engagement. In my opinion, this is both realistic and good for gameplay. 

 

Quite often, hits will result in total kills that leave the vehicle in flames or injure much of the crew. Obviously, repair is unreasonable in such situations. However, even damage that is less severe should not be easy to repair.

 

In WT, quick repairs cause frustration because they allow damaged tanks (destroyed barrel, burning engine, or broken turret) to come back from the grave and kill whoever damaged them within one minute of being hit. Of course, replacing a real gun barrel is simply not possible until support is available after the fighting is over.

 

Right now, players are willing to spend several minutes flying back to base after being damaged in the air. I believe tanks should be no different. Minor damage (perhaps only tracks?) should be repaired by the crew in a few minutes. Anything worse than that should require much more time (and possibly AI units) to prevent knocked-out tanks from coming back to life quickly enough to seek revenge. As usual, we quickly run into the problem of the match ending before this long process can be completed.

Edited by Mitthrawnuruodo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps there could be AI units following behind the line of advance which can rearm, refuel and repair friendly tanks.

Track damage could be repaired by the player after a timer, so drivers aren't forced to abandon an immobilised tank, but anything else requires falling back to an AI truck or trucks.

I imagine ground forces games will be quite dynamic with the lines moving quite a lot, and having the resupply units following the advance prevents the team that has taken the most ground being penalised by being further from their start point.

 

AI vehicles also provide a high-value target for the enemy which could a) be worth a lot of points, and b) add another layer to combat - instead of having opposing tanks pointlessly slugging it out in a field over stats, the tactical goal is now trying to break through or flank the enemy front line to hit their soft-skinned vehicles. If this is achieved then damaged enemy tanks can't repair and can be more easily knocked out allowing for ground to be taken.

 

There is already AI models of trucks and cars, all that we would need is a mechanism for them to repair, rearm and refuel anything that stops and switches off its engine within a given radius of them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why it's a problem is tank lost tracks and you have to spawn again? Repair would take hours and no one would do it during battle. When you lose engine or some part of plane you don't get repairs in air. You got hit and it's over, you can still stay there as a tank and shoot.

 

They won't put spawns 10km away, 1-3min of driving to get to battle seems good to me. Now it's bad when you have to drive 30min.. and then get one shot and dead.

 

Maybe if damage is small (tracks) your own tank crew could repair it (just like in mius front) but it would take a while. I think it would be nice balance, if someone takes tiger tank and lose tracks he shouldn't just quit and spawn new tank (since spawns will probably be limited).

 

It would be reward for enemy who disabled you for a while and they can take advantage of it, flank you etc. And not just "meh I will quit and spawn again".

 

And just like in planes, you should return to base if heavily damaged so you won't lose this tank.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just hope they don't intend to aim for the WT crowd. Instead my highest hope would be something in between Steel Fury and the Tank part of Red Orchestra I.

What? Have you been paying attention to Il-2?  :biggrin: 

 

They're absolutely aiming for WT crowd. 

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Monostripezebra

I feel like lobbying for marders. They are so odd.. vulnerable and still poverfull.

 

Also I am kind of fascinated with the soviet amored cars, the ba64 is kind of interesting for early war, too. As is the Puma.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I will be very disappointed if they do any kind of repair.  I hope they handle it like they do with aircraft, if you get damaged and can't make it back to your airfield, well, too bad.  Even the simplest repair, like fixing a track, should take an hour or more.  That assumes you have all the equipment you need.  There is not way someone would undertake this repair if bullets were still flying at them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How about if you get damaged you can call in for a repair truck to come and give you spare parts? Can be either AI or human controlled. That would be kind of fun to drive around and repair tanks and planes.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I will be very disappointed if they do any kind of repair.  I hope they handle it like they do with aircraft, if you get damaged and can't make it back to your airfield, well, too bad.  Even the simplest repair, like fixing a track, should take an hour or more.  That assumes you have all the equipment you need.  There is not way someone would undertake this repair if bullets were still flying at them.

What if a tank ran out of AP or HE rounds? Would you expect them to turn around and drive back to headquarters, or would they abandon the tank and go get a fresh one? Or would it be more reasonable for them to withdraw a little ways and call for more ammunition to be brought to them?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What if a tank ran out of AP or HE rounds? Would you expect them to turn around and drive back to headquarters, or would they abandon the tank and go get a fresh one? Or would it be more reasonable for them to withdraw a little ways and call for more ammunition to be brought to them?

Well, for the time span of the average battle, I would say your done.  You could withdraw to an ammo point, resupply your ammo and be ready to fight again in 30-40 min.  But I don't think anyone resupplied tanks in the middle of combat.

 

I suspect this is all irreverent, we don't have refit and resupply for aircraft now, I don't see why they would do that for tanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

II/JG17_HerrMurf

Just spitballing;

 

Couldn't you just have dynamic front lines and tank spawn points throughout the map? As you advance you own new spawn points and if you have to quit/restart you just select the one nearest the point you lost your tank. Spawn points change hands numerous times in the normal server capture the flag maps. There is no reason to go all the way back to the first spawn point on the map.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

216th_Lucas_From_Hell

A story about combined arms:

 

Many moons ago, during an FNBF the Soviet side had some tanks in Stalingrad. German armour was attempting to roll in from the outskirts, and it needed to be stopped.

 

Sadly memory fails me on who exactly was there but I'm almost certain Coconut, Cat, Jordan and Nocke were among the participants. Some of us went for tanks, others provided support from the skies.

 

I was in the airborne detachment, and while the cavalry made its way to the areas in need we navigated towards the burning ruins of Stalingrad. The first part of the job was establishing visual contact with our friends, and this was done within some minutes.

 

For what felt like an hour after that, we circled over the city looking for German units on the move, or AT guns setting up an ambush. There was an added stress component since we were also guarding our buddies from air attacks, and on the look for fighters too.

 

It was a really excellent mission altogether, and it shows the potential of the tanks as a whole when integrated into the battlefield. Others who were there might recall some details I missed but hopefully it gives those in doubt an idea of how it works :)

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you're not playing dead is dead then you should just be able to spawn into an AI controlled tank when you're killed or out of ammo.

Ah, this is a good idea. Have all units spawn and we just take them over.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

II/JG17_HerrMurf

Hahaha perhaps some of them will shoot back. At least some of the AAA will no longer be robotic.

 

Yeah, it might even MISS once in a while now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, for the time span of the average battle, I would say your done. You could withdraw to an ammo point, resupply your ammo and be ready to fight again in 30-40 min. But I don't think anyone resupplied tanks in the middle of combat.

 

I suspect this is all irreverent, we don't have refit and resupply for aircraft now, I don't see why they would do that for tanks.

We should really have refit and resupply for aircraft though, I think this is a feature that's missing from the aerial side of things.

If it works for the ground game then maybe it could be implemented at airfields.

 

 

Re: the subject of AI tanks, that could work. I certainly think that any tanks that are knocked out should stay on the map in whatever damaged/destroyed form they are in, rather that disappearing as soon as their player despawns.

Advancing through a map full of destroyed and smoking tank wrecks would be very atmospheric.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is pretty cool to have the broader variety of vehicles.

 

The one addition I feel I'd really like to see is a light tank (T-60 or T-70) as those were still pretty numerous.

 

*edit* The Hetzer or a Marder would also be interesting. It is neat that we are getting the Elephant, but a more numerous, lower profile tank destroyer would be cool.

Edited by Avimimus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mitthrawnuruodo

The T-60 and T-70 were rather prominent. It would be nice to have them included.

 

However, it seems Tank Crew is focused on heavy vehicles. This is understandable because the big cats and KV vehicles are by far the most recognizable. Unfortunately, this leads to the exclusion of many designs that saw widespread service. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The T-60/70 is a horrible little underpowered 2 crew stinkwheel, powered by 2 truck engines, 1 for each track, although there were masses employed, I doubt it would get much/any use in game, better to keep ai and use resources elsewhere.(just being realistic here)

I have read a number of reports of them being towed by T-34 because they could not keep up :) maybe anecdotal

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited by Dakpilot
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd hope to see recon vehicles included at some point. A light armoured car of some sort which can't compete on anything like equal terms with the tanks, but which has much greater visibility and can spot for others.

 

Especially given that I'm assuming the vision at 'expert' will be a single viewpoint from within the tank, with no F2/F4 external views. So spotting targets or maintaining situational awareness from within a buttoned-up tank suddenly becomes a difficult task.

 

Combine this with the Air Marshal mode ('ground marshal'?) and then everything works like an interlocking machine - scouts to spot, tanks to push forward, tank-destroyers to ambush the enemy and AA getting redeployed to cover areas where there's an air threat.

  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd love to see the Puma (234/2) in game. As you said, to act primarily as a scout or to get in some sneaky shots at side and rear tank armor, but would be S.O.L. if hit by a tank's main gun. 

 

I'd hope to see recon vehicles included at some point. A light armoured car of some sort which can't compete on anything like equal terms with the tanks, but which has much greater visibility and can spot for others.

Especially given that I'm assuming the vision at 'expert' will be a single viewpoint from within the tank, with no F2/F4 external views. So spotting targets or maintaining situational awareness from within a buttoned-up tank suddenly becomes a difficult task.

Combine this with the Air Marshal mode ('ground marshal'?) and then everything works like an interlocking machine - scouts to spot, tanks to push forward, tank-destroyers to ambush the enemy and AA getting redeployed to cover areas where there's an air threat.

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m getting increasingly excited about this aspect of expanding the IL-2 name to include a dedicated tank simulation. Being able to look around a WWII tank and control various positions in that tank realistically is something I’ve yearned for ever since I’ve been into simulations. Since they will be dedicating time to this game (instead of a small side project that the current Pz-III and T-34 are), it should hopefully be the best WWII tank sim we have seen in decades! I do hope they add infantry, even if that means they can’t integrate the tank part of the game into the same IL-2 BoX launcher due to the “gore” of killing infantry in a game making it have more strict regulations in some countries.

 

One thing I was wondering about the tank set - would an Su-85 be a good TD for the Russians? The current matchup does seem to be favoring the Germans in terms of firepower (I know it’s realistic) but I think the Su-85 might help a bit. From what I can tell by a quick search is that the Su-85 seemed to enter service toward the end of the battle of Kursk but I don’t know how much they actually served in the battle. I would take an Su-85 over the Su-122 in most battle scenarios (aside from wiping out infantry and AT emplacements), though I know the Su-122 had combat experience in the area we will be focusing so it may be more realistic.

 

Just food for thought, I will be more than happy with any tank set they give us!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mitthrawnuruodo

Strongly agree regarding the infantry. 

 

The SU-85 would not fit very well because it reportedly did not appear until August (a bit late for the July period depicted in the game). However, I do agree that it would be useful for gameplay. Not sure how effective the SU-122 and SU-152 will be against tanks. A vehicle equipped with the 85 mm rifle would be a good counter to the German big cats.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There needs to be one mission where you are the German tank reserve held outside the Kursk salient, and then the offensive is stopped, and suddenly the Soviets launch their own counter offensive and you need to try and stop the Soviets from breaking through complete(an impossible mission, there will be hundreds of T-34s and infantry swarming forward and destroying any German infantry and AT guns an everything, like a red sea of death).

 

Regarding infantry. Infantry is a must, since the role of tanks, even todays MBTs, is to support infantry in the end, even if they are operating on their own. So if we get a mission where we attack a Soviet trench system, for example, we might get 20 Mark IVs and 20 halftracks, with the halftracks rushing for each trench, disembarking infantry to clear out the trench(in a vicious spray of SMGs by both sides, until one side is dead), while the tanks try to kill AT guns and suppress enemy infantry so the halftracks and infantry will not take too many losses. Or while advancing through a new captured trench system(or maybe one that is still contested), an infantryman may toss an AT grenade onto the back of your tank and kill it. If one of the tanks in your unit is crippled and left behind, once it is alone, any surviving infantry will come out and swarm over it(one of the few games whose engine will actually allow the infantry to climb onto the tank and start chucking grenades into it until it is completely destroyed).

 

It just feels a little lifeless without infantry. If anyone here is good at mission making, make a mission where 40 T-34s(and the players T-34), spawn, and attack a German line with maybe 10 75mm guns or 50mm guns and maybe 2-3 88s. It will seem very lifeless indeed, since you will be fired at from long range, and even when you close the range there will be nothing but a few gunners to kill(although I thought this up as an example to show why infantry is needed, if someone can make this, please do and submit it to the devs, I would love to be able to try it, maybe the time period could be the counterattack that surrounded the city?).

 

Most people think Kursk was tank on tank, but the main challenge was for the Germans to even break through the line after line of Soviet defenses. When they did, they ran into the Soviet armoured reserve and their spearhead was broken.

Edited by hames123
Link to comment
Share on other sites

xvii-Dietrich

Sd.Kfz 10 + Flak 38. Dunno which flak gun 38 this is, would guess 20 mm. 

 

 

Good question.

 

Flak-38 is vague. There are at least five models covered by that designation:

 

  • 2-cm-FlaK 38 L/55
  • 2-cm-FlaK 38 L/65
  • 2-cm-Gebirgs-Flak 38
  • 2-cm-FlaK-Vierling 38
  • 10,5-cm-FlaK 38

 

Given that it is paired with the SdKfz-10, my guess is that it is the 2-cm-FlaK 38 L/55. This is the only model where I can find historical evidence of the unit being mounted on the SdKfz-10, although there are lots of examples. There are also lots of field mods, such as this semi-armoured example from the Ostfront.

 

post-71162-0-62172500-1511963727_thumb.jpg

 

The /65 is a later variant and the longer barrel gave higher muzzle-velocity. But I can't find any examples. The Vierling is mounted on vehicles, but only the heavier types (SdKfz-7, Horch truck or the purpose-built Wirbelwind Flakpanzer).

 

Another option would be that it is a towed gun. In which case it could be towed, set-up and then used as a static emplacement. This seems complicated from a game point of view, so I think that trailers are unlikely (consider how you would reverse the thing!).

 

And it is definitely not the 10,5cm Flak-38, as that was a static emplacement unit.

 

So, my guess is that we'll end up with something like this (without the trailer though).

 

post-71162-0-88654400-1511964100_thumb.jpg

 

 

I am not a big tank fan, but the inclusion of some Flak units has me intrigued. If there are some combined arms (tanks+aircraft) on the same maps, then Flak units do present an enriching of the combat environment and I would be very curious to try them. I used to enjoy driving SdKfz-251s in the old days of Red Orchestra, so having half-tracks in the IL2 engine could be a lot of fun. I am pleased the half-track suggested is the SdKfz-10 though. Many halftracks are pretty slow, being used almost as tractors for towing guns, etc. The SdKfz-10 is light and is more suited to rapid deployment. The only German halftrack that can outrun it would be the SdKfz-250.

 

 

 

References

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The T-60/70 is a horrible little underpowered 2 crew stinkwheel, powered by 2 truck engines, 1 for each track, although there were masses employed, I doubt it would get much/any use in game, better to keep ai and use resources elsewhere.(just being realistic here)

I have read a number of reports of them being towed by T-34 because they could not keep up :) maybe anecdotal

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

So, it might be more mobile given its lighter weight (even if it isn't hugely reliable or fast).

 

However, the argument is pretty simple:

 

1) It provides more unique gameplay to have an infantry fighting light tank that can only hope to disable enemy tanks at close range. This provides a unique manoeuvring challenge to use effectively on the battlefield. These tanks would also carry lighter guns with higher rates of fire (good for suppressing anti-tank guns, infantry etc.)

 

2) We (or at least some of us) want to recreate something of the experience and obstacles faced by people during the war - as a result it makes sense to model more typical equipment rather than focussing on rarer 'superior' vehicles. Some of use want to fly the I-16, not just the Me-262 (if that makes sense?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

-=PHX=-SuperEtendard

To be fair the T-34/76 is in a similar situation to the T-70 when facing Tigers and Panthers, they both have to engage them at the sides. And depending on the ammo available for the 76mm, it would even have trouble against the 80mm upper hull sides and rear armor of the Tiger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

=RvE=Windmills

Strongly agree regarding the infantry. 

 

The SU-85 would not fit very well because it reportedly did not appear until August (a bit late for the July period depicted in the game). However, I do agree that it would be useful for gameplay. Not sure how effective the SU-122 and SU-152 will be against tanks. A vehicle equipped with the 85 mm rifle would be a good counter to the German big cats.

 

A 152 hit doesn't have much issues knocking out anything, 122 can probably be debated. The bigger issue is that you are going to have a very hard time hitting at any real distance, and missing means a looooong reload.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...