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So, Tank Crew stuff. What exactly are we getting?


AndyJWest
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II/JG17_HerrMurf

I went back and read the original announcement. While it has been cleared up that tanks will be available in all maps it isn't particularly clear in the announcement. I had this question as well until I did some digging around.

 

Should be fun for the tankies but I agree the sight lines and icons (depending on your play style) have to be amended regarding terrain. I've been thinking about icons again anyway so will probably post some long winded treatise on it shortly.

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https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8f/52/f8/8f52f81f6ea0c602927c0a2cab18bcfe.jpg

 

:D

 

I hope they wont go into hollywood style, tank kill = tank expolosion, would be nice to have them just burn sometimes, kill crew and tank is still ok etc.

 

Would be nice to get mobility kill, like bomb exploding near you and you fall into a hole :P or trench, deeper water or mud. Heh :P

 

Hope kursk will get it's own expansion for planes too.

Edited by InProgress
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The wet dream here would be for this to be developed in coop with Graviteam guys, they have insane knowledge and modelling of damage and armour penetration. Their games have stuff in them like oil leaks from the engine, or tanks still rolling forward after the crew is killed and the steel beast drops a fiery trail of burning along the dead tanks path. I am a total noob when it comes to playing Graviteam games, but just watching the stuff that is happening during the battles or looking at the after action reports always makes me drop my jaw.

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The wet dream here would be for this to be developed in coop with Graviteam guys, they have insane knowledge and modelling of damage and armour penetration. Their games have stuff in them like oil leaks from the engine, or tanks still rolling forward after the crew is killed and the steel beast drops a fiery trail of burning along the dead tanks path. I am a total noob when it comes to playing Graviteam games, but just watching the stuff that is happening during the battles or looking at the after action reports always makes me drop my jaw.

 

+1000!

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Hehe playing a lot of mius front and Tunisia 1943 ;) it's amazing, damn driving tank full of infantry on it. At least hope for lots of equipment on it, not like now, clean tanks from factory :P

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Honestly I can't find the right difficulty for me in them games, it's either too easy or too hard for my noob tactical abilities. The interface sucks, the placement phase is bad (visibility icons say one thing, true visibility is completely different) and sometimes the AI goofs (actually a lot of times), but damn, isn't the simulation level something! That is how games used to be made in them old days, full dedication to realism as much as the tech allows and screw player comfort!

 

If I was to name a number 1 war-game with crude controls and epic battles it would still have to be Flashpoint Campaigns (buy it, play it nao!), but Graviteam games take a firm second and they still are number one when it comes to real-time strategy. I only wish they would pick up SABOW again, but maybe, just maybe a miracle happens and they go for a beer with Jason and bring all this glorious stuff to BOx. :drinks:

Edited by Mmaruda
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The wet dream here would be for this to be developed in coop with Graviteam guys, they have insane knowledge and modelling of damage and armour penetration. Their games have stuff in them like oil leaks from the engine, or tanks still rolling forward after the crew is killed and the steel beast drops a fiery trail of burning along the dead tanks path. I am a total noob when it comes to playing Graviteam games, but just watching the stuff that is happening during the battles or looking at the after action reports always makes me drop my jaw.

I was actually really interested in buying their WW2 version of Steel Armor after I bought the cold war version on steam. Saw that it was only on Amazon and some other website for a bit high of a price for an old product. I was very happy when I saw the announcement for tanks in my favorite CFS.

 

Multicrew with detailed crew compartments sounds amazing. My only concerns is infantry depiction. 

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Mitthrawnuruodo

Indeed, it is absolutely vital that infantry is present.

 

Also, I hope that picture-in-picture rendering is employed to properly model various optics and vision devices. This is important because visibility greatly varied between tank models, significantly affecting their capabilities.

 

Fortunately, the recent addition of mirrors shows that the engine can handle this very well.

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Guest deleted@30725

My only disappointment thus far was that so few tanks were put in. It was implied or said that tanks were a side project and not to expect too much, but it ended up making battles quite interesting have real ground forces doing stuff.

 

I think enough people will have enough fun with them to make the dev time worthwhile even if tanks generally were not my primary focus.

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Mitthrawnuruodo

As we are getting a Kursk map with Tank Crew, perhaps there is a chance for a few relevant collector aircraft as well. 

 

I know many of the existing aircraft fit a Kursk scenario, but there must be something interesting remaining?

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I didn't get to ask my question today and didn't hear the entire session about tanks.  Do we know if Tank Crew is being built with VR in mind?

Edited by WISredcoat22
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I didn't get to ask my question today and didn't hear the entire session about tanks.  Do we know if Tank Crew is being built with VR in mind?

All modules are being plugged into the same launcher so no doubt that VR is always considered when making new modules. 

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Here's a really great opportunity for some high quality damage modelling. I hope the devs will implement the ability to display holes in the armor plating, and through these holes see the fire on the inside, etc. Also, furiously burning fires through hatches, and hatches popping open during secondary explosions, etc. Judging by the standard of the current IL2 BoX damage modeling for planes, I have high hopes. :) 

 

It would be nice  for the something along the way of the 3D interior qualities of IDDK's 'WWII Battle Tanks: T34 vs Tiger', and the overall physics of Graviteam's 'Steel Armor: Blaze of War'. 

 

Really, really looking forward what the devs come up with! 

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Monostripezebra

Sounds good to me.. I´ve said for a long time, that the tanks have potential, but the crucial part is the environment/map for it work better. I think this sounds like it is on the right tracks.. ;=)

 

Now I just randomly dream on about having some Marders and a Hetzer thrown in. And a T-70.

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We have a (tentative) list:

 

 

I must admit though that I had to resort to Wikipedia to figure out some of them. So before I make more of a fool of myself by getting it all wrong, can someone confirm exactly what is what? (Yes, I know what a T-34 is, and I promise I only looked up M4A2 to double check). We seem to have tanks, self-propelled guns and a couple of flak guns with the necessary towing equipment (half-track for the Wehrmacht, and a ZIS truck for the Soviets if I'm not mistaken)  but confirmation and a little more detail would probably be appreciated by those of us less familiar with the muddy side of WW2.

So here's what these toys are. I have played with polygon toy tanks in all sorts of tactical simulators (Steel Panthers mostly), as well as WoT and WT, so take that as you will. Probably the strengths and weaknesses will be quite similar, but it also depends on stuff like spotting, optics etc.

 

T-34-76 STZ. This is a basic T-34, using a 76.2mm F-34 gun. It's a medium tank, with good mobility and reasonable, but by no means a great gun, that can punch through Pz IVs from all sectors and can penetrate a Panther from side. It can penetrate Tiger's side armor from very close range. It has sloped armour, which will increase it's durability, but this armour will still be penetrated frontally by Pz IV G, Pz V Panther, Pz VI Tiger and the Elepfant tank destroyer aka. almost all Germans you'll ever meet. When playing this tank, you have to rely on your mobility and not get hit. Probably will have horrible optics. Is competitive against Pz IVs, suffers against Panthers and Tigers. These toys were produced in immense amounts, and T-34 remains perhaps one of the most influential tank designs of all times. 

 

KV-1s. This is a heavy tank. It uses the same gun as T-34, has a bit stronger armour, and can thus maybe survive a hit or two the T-34 couldn't. Will probably have better optics than T-34. Don't get hit if you can. Actually, not getting hit is the best way of commanding any tank anywhere ever.

 

M4A2. Sherman tank, with a short 75mm gun (again, enough to kill Pz IVs from front, Panthers from side, Tiger sides from close range). This is pretty solid standard tank. It's perhaps not as revolutionary as T-34, but at least you can see out of this. Again, Shermans were produced in large numbers, and 75mm models served until the end of the war. Never, ever get shot by a Panther or a Tiger or a Pz IV for that matter either.

 

SU-122. A T-34 chassis with a a new superstructure housing a short 122mm gun. This was designed to support infantry. 122 can actually hurt other tanks pretty well too. 

 

SU-152. A new superstructure on KV-1 chassis, housing a ridiculous 152mm gun. Although originally planned as direct fire artillery piece, these tanks were used to kill Panthers and Tigers because it's a direct hit from 152mm gun, what do you think will happen to crew inside the tank? Still fragile.

 

Zis-5 + 72K. Flak truck with 25mm gun. 25mm guns with AP rounds can actually hurt Pz IVs and be a horrible nuisance, but that's not their role.

 

Pz III Ausf. L. Panzer III was one of the most used German tanks until 1942, when it was mostly replaced by Panzer IV. It's what WT players affectionally call "a German matchbox", and pretty much any gun in game will hurt this thing. Armed with a long 50mm gun, this can theoretically kill T-34s from the front but don't count on it. Shermans from the front? Better forget it. 

 

Pz IV ausf. G. Another German matchbox, but this time with a really good long-barreled 75mm gun (75L43). Dies from a hit, kills with a hit. Comparable models served until the end of the war.

 

Pz V Panther ausf. D. Panther D. "How about we make a T-34, but upgun it and make it unreliable?" All Panthers are mobile tanks with a ridiculously good long 75mm gun (75L70), scary sloped frontal armour, dismal reverse speed, average side armour and an operational introduction that borders on "laughably disastrous". The unreliability of early Panthers remains legendary, as does the shot trap in the turret front. But when they hit things oh my god. This cat kills stuff from long range, but once T-34s and Shermans close the range, they can often kill Panthers by just flanking. Like the Tiger, a well commanded Panther is scary. Kills stuff from really far away. Some models had really shit optics.

Pz VI Tiger H1. It's a Tiger tank. Heavy but unsloped armour, relatively good mobility, scary 88mm gun. Expensive, took eternity to build, still dies from a 85mm or 152mm hit like anything else. Also like any other tank does not like air strikes or running out of fuel or spare parts. Immensely popular in all tank games, a well played Tiger is usually a really, really formidable thing. Can kill stuff from really far away. Allied players need teamplay to kill these.

Sd. Kfz 184 Elefant. A tank destroyer built on Porsche's abandoned Tiger chassis. This thing is armed with the long-barreled 88mm gun, which was arguably the best anti-tank gun widely employed during WW2 (case for Russian long 122mms, British 17pdr and US 90mm can be made). Slow, huge, thick but unsloped armour. If this thing hits something, the target's dead. Too bad the thing's the size of a barn and has max road speed of like 30km/h. 

 

Sd.Kfz 10 + Flak 38. Dunno which flak gun 38 this is, would guess 20 mm. 

Edited by ElPerk
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Mitthrawnuruodo

I like the asymmetric choice of vehicles. Looks like the Germans will have superior firepower and protection available. 

 

None of the Soviets will really be able to challenge the Panther or Tiger from the front, not to mention the Ferdinand with its 200 mm plate. Unless they hit them with those huge 152 or 122 rounds of course.

 

It will be very interesting to see how things play out in multiplayer. 

Edited by Mitthrawnuruodo
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@ ElPerk

 

Thanks for the summary. Very helpful.

 

As for how it pans out in multiplayer, it looks like cooperation is going to be essential. It will be interesting to see if missions can be designed so the flak units get used. 

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These new packs coming out have some real kings among them. The Tiger and Me262 are the key ones and have no real competition in a 1 on 1 fight until the tables are turned. It will be interesting to see how multiplayer portrays these vehicles, or if they choose to limit their use. Hopefully the tools needed to tweak multiplayer vehicles is present by the time these wonderful machines come out. 

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Also I wonder if modifications will also play a part for some tanks like our aircraft. Say a T34 STZ outfitted to be a T34E? Same with the KV1E. Should make the machines a bit more competitive without having to compensate with sheer numbers as much. 

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I'd suggest driveable Opel Blitz and lend-lease trucks.  Like a flyable Ju-52, gameplay could also feature resupply and escort as a feature. 

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I'd suggest driveable Opel Blitz and lend-lease trucks.  Like a flyable Ju-52, gameplay could also feature resupply and escort as a feature. 

You are going to make me wish for spintires/mud runner like physics

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*runs numbers* Well shiaat dude you're right. Even 1942 Sherman has a reasonably good chance of just ricocheting a Kwk 40 round hitting the front plate. I wouldn't count on it though. Depends on range.

 

And getting shot at, geting hit by, whatever :P

Edited by ElPerk
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150GCT_Veltro

So, also this one would be possibile in Bondenplatte? Wich kinde or armament did have the Russian Shermans, 75 or 76mm?

 

7c4a490ab5beeb6a2685c74e4757f521.jpg

Edited by 150GCT_Veltro
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=IL2AU=chappyj

When we say detailed we don't mean like WT or WOT maps with super destructible everything. We're talking about adding a more detailed terrain mesh and maybe destructible trees and other small elements that make it a bit more detailed, but not crushing detail. Don't over-think these things.

 

Tanks on other maps will look like it does now which is still good enough for open range tank maneuvers and battles.The complaints we have about tanks on our current maps is that they are simply too big for tanks to have a lot of fun. You can argue about that all day, but if we make a cool map designed for tankers to battle it can only add to the fun. There will also be a few airfields on this map as well.

 

Jason 

how do you plan to figure VR into the experience? one of the main problems with tanking in vr (in here or even in WT) is the movement can be nausea inducing. 

also, 

would it be possible to make the interior of the tank fully free camera to allow movement in vr to different positions (within realistic parameters) 

 

will gunsights be fully modelled optics (as a deflector sight is modelled in aircraft) or more simple button click to enter optics mode?

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So, also this one would be possibile in Bondenplatte? Wich kinde or armament did have the Russian Shermans, 75 or 76mm?

 

7c4a490ab5beeb6a2685c74e4757f521.jpg

That's a winter camo Panther ausf D. That's the one that's in the tentative list.

 

76mm Shermans were introduced in summer 1944. Russia got some of them in autumn 1944 too.

 

edit:

Just in case you want to do some basic google research on the subject of Lend Lease tanks in Soviet use in World War 2, be advised: the topic is difficult. Western people like to ascribe many of the faults Soviets found in Lend-lease equipment as a product of post-war propaganga. Some people then consider this aspect to be nationalistic jingoism. It's irritating, because if you can't read Russian, you'll often end up reading third-hand translations from obscure forums filled with apologia for whomever.

 

There exists an insane and frustrating repertoire of different reports, forums topics and stuff like that which range from "lend-lease tanks saved Soviet Union because they could be used as training tanks and also fought everywhere" all the way to "lend-lease tanks had zero effect on anything Soviets did". Finally, you will know that Soviets used lend-lease tanks and that trucks were important.

 

Edited by ElPerk
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150GCT_Veltro

Yes, is a Panther.

I was thinking about Panther vs Sherman enviroment, but without a 76mm for the M4 it would be a little problematic.

 

Thank for reply.

 

4557e1fe08d83168bb9134e713e9f0f7--ww-pho

Edited by 150GCT_Veltro
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Yes, is a Panther.

I was thinking about Panther vs Sherman enviroment, but without a 76mm for the M4 it would be a little problematic.

 

Thank for reply.

 

4557e1fe08d83168bb9134e713e9f0f7--ww-pho

Kursk is the point in the war the Germans get to have best firepower and protection in their tanks. On Soviet side, the SU-85, armed with a 85mm gun, only appears in early Autumn 1943. The rest of the better gun platforms - T-34-85, IS-2, SU-100 and ISU-122 - only appear in 1944. After summer of 1944 the Allies once again have all sorts of shooty things that can hurt the kittens.

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Well i am pretty sure you wont be able to play tiger all the time and there will be limit of tanks at one time. Like 10 panzer 3, 10 panzer 4, 5 pz5, 2 tigers etc.

 

Germans will be great at long range and heavy tanks while russians will be way better during close combat with medium tanks destroying easly 3 and 4.

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Mitthrawnuruodo

It will be like WT in the early days of ground forces. I enjoyed it when StuG, Panzer IV, Tiger, and Panther fought T-34, KV, and occasionally IS.

 

Now, the game is ruined because these vehicles have to fight numerous post-war designs and prototypes. WT ground forces has ceased to interest me.

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It will be like WT in the early days of ground forces. I enjoyed it when StuG, Panzer IV, Tiger, and Panther fought T-34, KV, and occasionally IS.

 

Now, the game is ruined because these vehicles have to fight numerous post-war designs and prototypes. WT ground forces has ceased to interest me.

I still play WT's ground forces because it's really fun in small doses. Blasting Panzers in T-34 or going pedal to the metal with an M18. But the repetition and grind... oh man.

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=EXPEND=Tripwire

It will be like WT in the early days of ground forces. I enjoyed it when StuG, Panzer IV, Tiger, and Panther fought T-34, KV, and occasionally IS.

 

Now, the game is ruined because these vehicles have to fight numerous post-war designs and prototypes. WT ground forces has ceased to interest me.

Yeah the unrealistic matchups of postwar vs WW2 tanks is one of the reasons I stopped WT tanking, along with simulation battles becoming just events with only select tanks.

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I haven't had much time over the past few days (and today and tomorrow won't be any different), but I'd like to put some disjointed thoughts of mine up for debate or the dev's consideration.

 

1.) More ammunition types

 

A key issue with the current Pz III Ausf. L vs T-34/76 is the "simplicity" of the two available ammunition types. Historically the Wehrmacht began to field the Panzergranate 40 in 1942 which gave the long-barreled Panzer IIIs a fighting chance against the T-34 under 500m. The lack of such an APCR round clearly limits the usefulness of the Panzer III and will certainly relegate it to the "Garage Queen" role in the new release as well.

 

2.) Violent shaking when hit by small-caliber MGs

 

I find the current violent shaking when hit by MG fire to be more than a nuisance, it is actually way way overdone. A 20-ton tank should not be shaking when hit by 7.62mm or 7.92mm projectiles at all.

 

3.) Binoculars for the tank commander

 

German tank commanders often used binoculars to gain a much better view of the battlefield and especially what went on in some distance (we're not in the time of modern optronics, yet, after all). I don't know if the soviet tank commanders did so as well (snippets I got from various sources actually point to them "buttoning up" for battle) but for the sake of balance I think it would be fair to offer that possibility to both sides.

 

4.) SdKfz 184

 

I am not a fan of the Elephant in this respect, both because its historical antetype did not serve at Prokhorovka (both battalions served on the northern front of the Kursk Bend) but also because I'd greatly prefer the more widespread and far more versatile StuG III.

 

Just saying ...

Edited by csThor
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1.) More ammunition types

 

A key issue with the current Pz III Ausf. L vs T-34/76 is the "simplicity" of the two available ammunition types. Historically the Wehrmacht began to field the Panzergranate 40 in 1942 which gave the long-barreled Panzer IIIs a fighting chance against the T-34 under 500m. The lack of such an APCR round clearly limits the usefulness of the Panzer III and will certainly relegate it to the "Garage Queen" role in the new release as well.

 

2.) Violent shaking when hit by small-caliber MGs

 

I find the current violent shaking when hit by MG fire to be more than a nuisance, it is actually way way overdone. A 20-ton tank should not be shaking when hit by 7.62mm or 7.92mm projectiles at all.

 

3.) Binoculars for the tank commander

 

German tank commanders often used binoculars to gain a much better view of the battlefield and especially what went on in some distance (we're not in the time of modern optronics, yet, after all). I don't know if the soviet tank commanders did so as well (snippets I got from various sources actually point to them "buttoning up" for battle) but for the sake of balance I think it would be fair to offer that possibility to both sides.

 

4.) SdKfz 184

 

I am not a fan of the Elephant in this respect, both because its historical antetype did not serve at Prokhorovka (both battalions served on the northern front of the Kursk Bend) but also because I'd greatly prefer the more widespread and far more versatile StuG III.

1: Definitely agree, definitely need the APC-r shell for the PzIII to be useful in this pack. Also A better way of selecting different ammo types.

2: Absolutely

3: I would definitely expect that to happen. I'd take that even further and say have binoculars for pilots and radio/navigators seats.

4: Would a Marder III tickle your fancy?

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Mitthrawnuruodo

Strongly agree about the ammunition, shaking, and binoculars. I will not be offended by the Elefant, but a StuG would be very useful for the sake of balance and completeness. 

 

Also, penetration must be deterministic. It was very frustrating to get ricochets in WT thanks to random numbers.

 

Hopefully details such as smoke discharge canisters are included for tanks that had them. Since game tank combat is rather simple compared to air, these it's these little things that become decisive in engagements. 

Edited by Mitthrawnuruodo
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4: Would a Marder III tickle your fancy?

 

I don't know. It would certainly be a viable candidate as well, but the StuG III is still a lot more versatile (i.e. infantry support role) and could also be used where tanks weren't in use or very rare (i.e. Kuban) because they belonged to the artillery branch and not the Panzerwaffe.

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Would the in-game mini map need topographical heights?  I imagine knowing the contours of the landscape would be very important.

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