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RustyEagle

ability to rearm, refuel, and repair

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I understand that having the ability to repair an extremely damaged plane within a short amount of time is not very realistic. But i want everyone reading this to think about whats usually going on at an airfield in this game. people are ground looping all over the place, people are not using the runway and just taking off as soon as they start their engine, people rear end each other, it can be very chaotic at time. Now imagine throwing in aircraft coming back damaged or out of ammo trying to taxi to a repair/rearm station.

So what am i exactly proposing here? I think it would be awesome to have a place on an airfield where returning aircraft could taxi to so they can rearm and refuel and possibly repair. It will make returning to the airfield even more of a goal to a lot of people. in the current state you land then just leave your plane and spawn a new one, think about being able to basically remain in the same aircraft through out an entire mission. having stations to taxi to on the airfield could also make people practice their taxiing. bombers could come back after a successful bombing run, rearm and go back out again without having to leave their original plane and start over. i really hope this kind of feature gets added into the game at some point and i am aware that this has been suggested before but i kind of wanted to start a newer discussion on the topic as its been one of the things bothering me recently. 

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Ya know, the first time I saw someone suggest this, I thought it was silly, but since then I've caught myself wishing this was a feature while RTB. I would enjoy it, even if there was no ground crew animation or anything (like Ju 52 cargo unloading).

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It would be useful for a Po-2 campaign - they rapidly re-armed and re-fueled all night long.

This is unknown or ignored (although I suspect more the ignorance) by those who poo-poo the concept across the board.

 

I'm not sure the Po-2 (and maybe few other examples I'm unaware of) justify the development time however.

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My assumption was that people turned their nose up to anything similar to WT. A kind of guilty by association. That said I imagine this is simply more difficult to actually execute. I wouldn't mind seeing it - I always shed a tear when I bring my perfectly good plane back, land and exit, then find out I can't take her back up again due to availability shenanigans.

 

 

von Luck

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The obvious question is Why?   It has been done on other games but, apart from rare special events where you are only allowed one life and one aircraft,  nobody uses it because it is quicker and easier to just grab a new aircraft.

 

Currently the game works like 'We have a hangar full of factory fresh fulled fueled and armed aircraft  waiting so when you land just jump out of the old one wherever it stops and into a new one and take off immediately.'    You are suggesting adding 'But if you want to spend 2 minutes taxiing somewhere and waiting a few more minutes for us to patch it up and hope nobody attacks the field then we will let you take off again in a battle damaged aircraft instead.'   

 

What reason would there be for someone to write code to do this when people wanting to simulate a refueling delay could just despawn and wait 5 minutes before respawning? It will only work if there is some incentive.  Perhaps on servers where players only have a restricted number of aircraft each  they could say 'If you come back and just despawn then that is one of your aircraft used up and not available again for an hour but we can fix it instead and let you relaunch and the time delay will be based on how much damage needs repairing with a max of ten minutes for a badly damaged engine.'   You might even be able to put in the 'Badly treated engine penalty' that some people want to see instead of engines just exploding eg If you have been using emergency power too long then it will take a little longer for your aircraft to be repaired & re-armed.

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex

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The ability to re-arm could also be used for picking up cargo both in single and multiplayer - a little imagination people.

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See above - there's more to life than multiplayer.

sorry is that an actual argument? "This doesn't exist in game because single player doesn't require it?"

 

lousy logic if you ask me. I understand how the present system works and it works well 99% of the time but there are those moments you wish for something else. I'm merely mentioning one instance in which I find the present system cumbersome.

 

von Luck

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No sir - I mean just because you don't need it in multiplayer doesn't mean there's no use in single player. :)

For one or two aircraft anyway.

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Ahhh yea one sentence posts lack enough context - my mistake. I actually want it for multiplayer ;)

 

von Luck

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One time I landed on Wings and was taxiing towards a hangar when the base came under attack. I was basically parked, with a few superficial holes in my plane, but after a moment of indecision decided I had enough fuel and ammo to scramble so I rushed up to meet the attackers.

 

My point is that an additional few minutes hanging out on the ground could make for some interesting situations.

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As a single player, I would appreciate RRR very much. I always create my own missions with ME myself. And as a Jabo or Bomberpilot it is already very frustrating, if I can only drive vehicle columns or moving tanks only once.
Whoever talks about real simulation and reality should leave the fingers of zoom and other aids.

There are also in this world also single players!  :biggrin: 

I hope I have understood the question correctly.

This is a Google translation. I do not speak English.

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Team Fusion CloD server had this feature.

 

I like it, there were guidelines around it - ie. couldn't be damaged, you could rearm and refuel and a fuel truck would be there while that is happening.

 

Would be good in online war scenarios.

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Ahhh yea one sentence posts lack enough context - my mistake. I actually want it for multiplayer ;)

von Luck

For multiplayer I truly see both sides of that one.

I don't blame those who think it would be great, but also get the "not worth the time" argument.

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Id like the option to be available to mission makers in an ideal world.

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It's been brought up many many times since the sim had it's original launch, what, 16 years ago now?

 

And in all the time I've had the many iterations on my computers, I've never understood the logic of it.  There are so many other things that are far more pressing than this bit of fluff, that few will use, and most will become bored with after the first few times using it.

 

I can think of so many other things the developers should spend their time on.

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It's been brought up many many times since the sim had it's original launch, what, 16 years ago now?

 

And in all the time I've had the many iterations on my computers, I've never understood the logic of it.  There are so many other things that are far more pressing than this bit of fluff, that few will use, and most will become bored with after the first few times using it.

 

I can think of so many other things the developers should spend their time on.

 

Sorry you don't understand the logic...the logic is quite easy actually as outlined above.

No I don't think the devs should devote 2 months to making it happen since as you say, there are more important things to be done.

No argument there.

That's NOT the same thing as calling it useless however.

 

As a mission designer I could have fun with it...like I said above... a little imagination.

 

Imagine landing in a transport and picking up supply canisters or troopers...or landing in a Po-2 after a mission and having more bombs slapped on and your fuel topped off.

Are you telling me that exiting the mission and starting a new one is just as immersive? Come on.

I could devise any number of scenarios in a single player mission that could make use of this mechanic.

 

I'm not asking for it, it's just something I'd make use of if the logic was already in the editor/sim.

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The ability to re arm and refuel would be a fantastic option for multi player. If the server allowed it than a player could feel a sense of accomplishment of having flown a sortie, engaged the enemy and returned home for another get go.

Plenty of people fly like their life's in the sim matter.

 

Perhaps if your life in the sim actually mattered and certain plane sets were limited in number than people would be more careful how they treat the plane they are flying. I see people drop bombs and than simply nose dive into the ground to res spawn...

 

I equate that flying style as more War thunder than hard core flight sim.

 

Cliffs of Dover has this feature and many people use it every day and appreciate it.

 

In Cliff's your plane can not be damaged to re arm and re fuel FYI.

 

Having options is always a good thing.

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excellent points to both sides, yes people shy away from the fact that it seems like a war thunder feature, however this feature is in DCS world and in CloD on the ATAG server. people do this all the time and having the option to be able to do so is great. for those saying there is no purpose because it takes time i think you are wrong. This is like saying we dont need runways because it takes much less time to just start your engine and take off right there.

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I think its really a necessity, especially in terms of either succeeding in the mission in single player or keeping your active aircraft in multiplayer. I read through the Dev diaries last night and I saw the previous producer note that the question has already arisen and that the functionality is there but they saw no point if the leave plane then re-spawn in multiplayer worked just fine. Now the way I see it is if re-arm/fuel is added to multiplayer then the servers running higher realism settings could use this to say that the only way that plane you took in rotation can be re-used by you or others is if you re-arm and fuel it before leaving it, or just take off again in it afterward. If its a rather undamaged plane then it would take a short amount of time to make it combat ready again. But if the plane is damaged with structural or engine damage then the plane would be put into the pit for however long it takes to fix. At that point give the player the option to stay in the plane until repairs are complete or switch to another plane (the current system) and that plane will be temporarily unavailable until repairs are complete.

 

~~With a system like that the devs could capitalize on this opportunity to increase engine limitations into real time, rather than the arbitrary minutes and seconds we have currently. 

 

About single player - I played some RoF about a week ago and got really off-put over the campaigns in that game because the ammo quantities were not sufficient to complete one of the missions ive tried about 10 times on. I either run out of fuel or use all of my ammo and cannot finish off my targets to move on to the next mission of the campaign. Ive returned to the airfield leaving one or two enemies alive because of this and just sat at the airfield hoping they crash from their previous wounds. 

 

At the same time I feel that the super lean requirements to complete a mission in IL-2 BoX is kind of silly. Basically fly to action point - look at ememy, put a couple bullets in them - return home. Mission accomplished, next. If we had to re-arm and re-fuel to finish some more difficult objectives I would love single player even more. 

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I was watching a video the other day which claimed that during the BoB, it was possible to re-arm and re-fuel a Spitfire or Hurricane in as little as 7 minutes.  Other aircraft types may take longer or shorter periods of time I'd imagine. Assuming that's all correct I'd also imagine an average time would be more like fifteen minutes - because of course there would always be unexpected delays in circumstances  where numerous pilots were competing for available ground personnel and equipment.  I don't know but I suspect you could do some rough and ready patching in fifteen minutes or so but even there I think you'd be pushing it given the stresses involved on the air frame and the potential hazards involved in patching-up a damaged aircraft that had no been fully inspected. 

 

Are people really prepared to sit about for 10-15 minutes while a pretend repair, refuel and re-arm is going on?  Really?

Edited by Wulf

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Depends on the type of person and how they implement it. Id probably not want to start all over in a single player mission and use that time to grab something good to eat. But like others have stated, other games implement it just fine. 

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This poll suggests you are a very small minority on your opinion.

 

As far as the time to refuel it is not a problem . Time enough to grab a drink or use the restroom and stretch your legs. I always fly with 100% fuel and often return on empty. The time is 2.5 minutes in CloD so not a big deal. Its pretty cool actually as a fuel truck comes in front of your plane and leaves once you are fueled up.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/4932-rearming-and-refuelling-aircraft/

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This poll suggests you are a very small minority on your opinion.

 

As far as the time to refuel it is not a problem . Time enough to grab a drink or use the restroom and stretch your legs. I always fly with 100% fuel and often return on empty. The time is 2.5 minutes in CloD so not a big deal. Its pretty cool actually as a fuel truck comes in front of your plane and leaves once you are fueled up.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/4932-rearming-and-refuelling-aircraft/

 

 

I'm always happy to be in the minority but if you're getting re-fueled/re-armed/patched up or what have you in 2.5 minutes; that's not immersion, that's fantasy land.

 

And if you're getting out of your armchair to make a coffee or whatever, what's the point?  How immersive is getting up and getting a coffee when you're supposed to be  strapped in your seat waiting anxiously for permission to get back in the air? 

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Are people really prepared to sit about for 10-15 minutes while a pretend repair, refuel and re-arm is going on?  Really?

 

I've seen people say in earlier threads that 10-15 seconds was realistic enough.  :blink:

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I am a bit confused by people arguing that it must be viable because CLoD has it.  I am arguing *against* it (unless there are other incentives) purely because it was in CLoD and was not used much. 

 

It is a novelty which people try out once or twice just to see the fuel truck get beamed down from the Starship Enterprise and beamed up again 5 minutes later but then the novelty runs out, especially if they get killed by a vulcher while trapped in a plane beside a truck full of fuel.  The exception has been in specialised events where you are restricted to just one aircraft and once despawned you have to leave the server. Another time I have seen it used is when the only spawnable airfields are a long way from the front lines but you could land at forward fields to refuel & re-arm but again that was only in a special event.   You could use the functionality in special events in BoX , and it is fair to say it might be used in SP, but I think it would be of limited use in everyday MP servers unless there is some solid reason why people would benefit from it.   I should also mention that it is only in CLoD because someone added the functionality themselves using the mission scripting.

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R&R is nice future but with unrealistic time - like max one minute.This trade off realisim is must have otherwise majority will not bother. Same as warm up engine you have it all ready after choosing plane ,you don't have to wait.

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The option is available in the ME.  However, it, evidently, has never been scripted as it does not work.

Couple of points for the nay sayers about this here.

1.  There is more to playing this game than "as real as possible simulation 100% of the time".  I say this as one who does indeed try to full fly "full real" most of the time.  However, sometimes it is just fun to fly with icons on and just have fun.

 

2.  I have a few "practice missions" that I have made for single player mode to work on tactics, gunnery, etc against the AI.  Being able to land, rearm, refuel, repair, would be extremely helpful and fun. 

3.  There is a great deal of negativity on this forum surrounding WT type "AirQuake" mp battles.  I have to say, I used to love the immediate action that you could get in CFS 2 just jumping into a airspawn airquake style server (and you could land, rearm/repair in that game and I would try all the time).  Even so, I would seek out the NoFUN servers whenever I could.
I honestly believe that this is one reasons why WT is popular.  It is a very good way to entice new players.  After awhile, these types of matches start to loose their luster and new players will want to "upgrade" to a more "real" experience.  There are those that do NOT want to jump into the deep end filled with sharks when they can barely dog paddle.

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If people want to play make believe, fine make this feature available for them. I personally think it is impractical/unrealistic gimmick.

 

What I really want for mp which would do a similar thing to some of the RfRa advocates want is for severs to save/reserve your plane/team slot after landing successfully. I am so so sick of going out, being careful, then landing and despawning to have somebody that has joined take my plane or even worse take my slot and now I cant spawn because the team was on is full.

 

You should obviously lose your plane if you select a different type or if you are afk or die..... But losing your team slot because you cant spawn should just not be a thing Imo. I sometimes just don't want to land because I know it will take 10 mins to spawn.

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If people want to play make believe, fine make this feature available for them. I personally think it is impractical/unrealistic gimmick.

 

What I really want for mp which would do a similar thing to some of the RfRa advocates want is for severs to save/reserve your plane/team slot after landing successfully. I am so so sick of going out, being careful, then landing and despawning to have somebody that has joined take my plane or even worse take my slot and now I cant spawn because the team was on is full.

 

You should obviously lose your plane if you select a different type or if you are afk or die..... But losing your team slot because you cant spawn should just not be a thing Imo. I sometimes just don't want to land because I know it will take 10 mins to spawn.

 

I mostly agree with your first statement that it is a gimmick...but then you continue on with an argument that pretty much argues *for* R&R  :huh:   :biggrin:       Allowing someone to keep their aircraft when there is a risk of someone stealing it if they despawn is a perfect use of the R&R mechanic.   It is still limited though because few servers have that problem where people can 'steal' your aircraft.  

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i'm all for the realism, however a balanced one. I can see this working in the CoOP mode as the dumb AI won't do anything silly to aggravate the player base.

 

however in the MP, regardless how policed it is (which is never hard enough), there's always going to be cases where this model is abused. Well, at least in the open MP servers. If you're running a locked MP server with your group you can dictate any rules you want, and I'm sure given enough time you can find people who think alike.

 

The option is available in the ME.  However, it, evidently, has never been scripted as it does not work.

Couple of points for the nay sayers about this here.

1.  There is more to playing this game than "as real as possible simulation 100% of the time".  I say this as one who does indeed try to full fly "full real" most of the time.  However, sometimes it is just fun to fly with icons on and just have fun.

 

2.  I have a few "practice missions" that I have made for single player mode to work on tactics, gunnery, etc against the AI.  Being able to land, rearm, refuel, repair, would be extremely helpful and fun. 

3.  There is a great deal of negativity on this forum surrounding WT type "AirQuake" mp battles.  I have to say, I used to love the immediate action that you could get in CFS 2 just jumping into a airspawn airquake style server (and you could land, rearm/repair in that game and I would try all the time).  Even so, I would seek out the NoFUN servers whenever I could.
I honestly believe that this is one reasons why WT is popular.  It is a very good way to entice new players.  After awhile, these types of matches start to loose their luster and new players will want to "upgrade" to a more "real" experience.  There are those that do NOT want to jump into the deep end filled with sharks when they can barely dog paddle.

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If people want to play make believe, fine make this feature available for them. I personally think it is impractical/unrealistic gimmick.

 

What I really want for mp which would do a similar thing to some of the RfRa advocates want is for severs to save/reserve your plane/team slot after landing successfully. I am so so sick of going out, being careful, then landing and despawning to have somebody that has joined take my plane or even worse take my slot and now I cant spawn because the team was on is full.

 

You should obviously lose your plane if you select a different type or if you are afk or die..... But losing your team slot because you cant spawn should just not be a thing Imo. I sometimes just don't want to land because I know it will take 10 mins to spawn.

what is a gimmick is that after every sortie you would just magically have your plane despawn on the run way and then poof your in a brand new plane every 15 minutes after you complete a flight.

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it was NOT a little used novelty in CLoD, nor is it a gimmick, as some might insist.

 

 

The R+R feature of CLoD created a vastly more rewarding multiplayer environment, where the experience of a successful sortie was made completely different from that of a failed one.

 

Currently in BoX, the simple premise of having to respawn anyways puts a taste of pointlessness in flying full missions.  Combined with the lacks and wants of a crude kills-only scoreboard, this causes players to behave in absurd ways. 

 

Suicidal rams, Disposable Bombers, Airfield Camping, and all manner of unauthentic (and at times aggravating) behaviors ensue directly from this ever-present sense of the utter pointlessness of returning alive.  Even when returning is accomplished, it falls short of being as meaningful a reward as it had been in CloD.

 

 

The CloD R+R feature also introduced a whole new element to online play:  A relevant logistical choice to be made by each player.  As the rear bases offered more advanced airplane types, they could be brought forward at the expense of a longer haul.  This made them special to those operating them, and infused these pilots with a heightened instinct for self-preservation.   Being able to rearm those types at bases closer to the action made this a very interesting and deeply engaging mechanic.

 

 

Therefore: To dismiss R+R as an unimportant lesser priority, is to completely miss the point of how player behavior evolves around existing features.  A sad, near-sighted mistake, which many a game designer have historically blundered upon to their own detriment.

 

 

R+R can help cure a lion's share of the behavioral issues that plague our online games, and at the same time, it'd offer SP mission designers a whole new world of possibility.

 

 

Let us please have it.   Anyone saying otherwise is lobbying for an ultimately lesser game. Probably without even realising it.   I trust that our devs are wise enough to see through such folly.

Edited by 19//Moach
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