BF109 Engine Damage in boost/emergency mode

[Panthera]

Well it wasn't even half way down the first page

 

 

[PainGod85]

Oh well, if it's on the top of the first page, might as well ask my question here.

 

@LukeFF mentioned how only the 109E's oil temperature gauge was working as the two are one combined instrument starting with the F. Are there plans to modify these gauges the same way the fuel indicator on the Fw 190 is working? I'm asking as prolonged use of the G-14's WEP tends to cause oil temperatures to increase to the point that the technochat warns you about it.

[Blutaar]

You can ignore the message, it just means that you are above rated and not above max temp. Not sure if i understand the temp gauge right but i thought it allways shows both temps somehow. 

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

12 minutes ago, Ishtaru said:

Not sure if i understand the temp gauge right but i thought it allways shows both temps somehow. 

 

Nope, you need to press a button for it to show oil temp. That's not modeled yet. Gauge only shows water temperature in game.

[KingstonDE]

3 hours ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

 

Nope, you need to press a button for it to show oil temp. That's not modeled yet. Gauge only shows water temperature in game.

 

Hi Tripwire,

 

you are wrong on this. It show both Water and Oil out. So when you are in the red mark for water you also on max oil out. The button is to show oil in.

So only a switch for oil in / oil out. If i find the link here in the forum again for the 109F/G engine manual and gauge layout i will post it. There you can read it.

 

regards

 

Little_D

 

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Sure, post it up. I don't know how both water and oil out always stay constant at all engine regimes, but I'm always willing to learn something new. Thanks. 

 

[ACG_Smokejumper]

On 4/26/2018 at 10:45 AM, JaffaCake said:

 

 

Sigh. Majority of the discussion was focused on the lack of specification of 1-minute time limit on 109. Not the fact that engines break after WEP time excess.

 

 

 

Wasn't WEP in a 109 on a 60 second mecahnical timer? If I am correct and I am confident I am there will be no "more than a minute" literature. After 60 seconds it shut off on its own.

On 4/26/2018 at 11:04 AM, Ishtaru said:

 

If there was a problem like detonation after one minute nobody would clear such a setting or after discovering such a problem, they would have blocked it like they did at some point. Imagine how many would have lost their engines because they misjudged the 60secs timer. Where are all the reports, did they all died? Not one survior?

 

 

 

 

It never happened because WEP is a mechanical timer. I think Karaya made a video mentioning it. I can't find it though. I might be wrong so feel free to correct me if so.

Edited May 31, 2018 by 7./JG26_Smokejumper

[JtD]

10 minutes ago, 7./JG26_Smokejumper said:

Wasn't WEP in a 109 on a 60 second mecahnical timer?

 

On the DB601A of the Bf109E, yes. It was dropped with the early DB601N.

[ACG_Smokejumper]

Ahh thanks buddy! Learnt something new. I thought it carried on.

[KingstonDE]

On 5/28/2018 at 2:59 AM, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

Sure, post it up. I don't know how both water and oil out always stay constant at all engine regimes, but I'm always willing to learn something new. Thanks. 

 

 

Hi =EXPEND=Tripwire:

 

here is a link to a topic that explanes it https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/37468-bf-109-display-oil-temperature/.

 

regards

 

Little_D

Edited June 21, 2018 by 1./JG2_Little_D

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

5 hours ago, 1./JG2_Little_D said:

 

Hi =EXPEND=Tripwire:

 

here is a link to a topic that explanes it https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/37468-bf-109-display-oil-temperature/.

 

regards

 

Little_D

 

 

Yeah, so reading that thread, then go back and read my post -

 

On 5/28/2018 at 1:04 AM, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

 

Nope, you need to press a button for it to show oil temp. That's not modeled yet. Gauge only shows water temperature in game.

 

That's exactly how I said it works..  It only shows water temp normally, you push a button to get it to show oil.

 

 

Edited June 21, 2018 by =EXPEND=Tripwire

[KingstonDE]

Hi =EXPEND=Tripwire,

 

than of curse the member of the Messerschmitt Museum in Manchingen is wrong, as he gives me the info.

He told me it shows both water out and oil out, to see oil in you need to push the button. Also if there it is like you said, why you need 2 scales, as you could use only one scale

for both to show as you can switch between water out and oil.

 

So for me at least it shows both as i trust him and his experience and knowleg more then this forum, no offens.

 

regards

 

Little_D

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

Quick update on the WEP front,

 

A long time ago I wrote a message to Han regarding the current 109 engine limits. His answer was that there had been plenty of discussion regarding this in the forum already and that it was basically settled for him. I asked him where exactly this had been discussed and never got an answer to this question. However after a long wait (today) I have received a message from Han in which he is requesting documentation regarding the WEP.

 

In the meanwhile, I have found out - thanks to @JaffaCake that what Han most likely meant was  discussion in the Russian forum

Specifically this post:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/1282-ваше-мнение-как-повлияло-ограничение-на-время-работы-двигателя-в-перегрузе-на-преимущество-bf-109f/?do=findComment&comment=146612

 

Now the whole topic has two major aspects

The DB601 for the F4 and the DB605 for 109Gs

 

Re 601

One of the main arguments of VikS seems to be the manual of an Me-210A-1 - DB601F to derive the 1 min limit.

I would be glad if there is anyone that has any information to in what way this limit was derived and in which way it relates to the 109 601 for the F4 that we have in game, so I could post an argument in addition to the pictures and manuals.

 

Re 605

I am not exactly sure how to go about this yet, since I would have to send all manual, then explain that the the time frame is important, that the indicated 1 minute restriction, is actually not really there but it is totally blocked or that there is no limit at all. I havn´t thought of a clear and concise way to send the data (which in itself in German is already confusing), taking into consideration the 3 way translational (Russian, English, German) massacre that will result out of it

 

So any help is appreciated

Thanks!

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2018 by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn

[JtD]

The Me210 Bedienungsvorschrift is available here. It's dated November 1942.

 

The DB601F engine is basically an E with a different reduction gear, which is the reason Viks used it for the Bf109F-4. For Notleistung it gives a 'permitted duration' of 1 minute. Technically there obviously are differences between a 210 an a 109, still it was the best and only reference that gave any time limit for Notleistung on a 601E/F.

[Corsair]

On 11/24/2018 at 3:12 PM, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

A long time ago I wrote a message to Han regarding the current 109 engine limits. His answer was that there had been plenty of discussion regarding this in the forum already and that it was basically settled for him. I asked him where exactly this had been discussed and never got an answer to this question. However after a long wait (today) I have received a message from Han in which he is requesting documentation regarding the WEP.

 

On the "settled" and "WEP doc requests" bit: does it regard the 601s or the 605A?

 

On the 605A/G-6, it is indeed important to underline the time frame, and the two aspects of the WEP use on it:

- complete ban of the 1,42 ata boost use, with provisional 1 minute limit (supposedly never enforced because the 1,42 ata setting simply was not allowed on the aircraft with manuals describing this provisional time limit)

- use of the 1,42 ata setting allowed, with no time limit mentioned on the manuals for aircraft with cleared 1,42 ata. Now, it does not mean the engine is invincible, but limitations call for more complex modelling rather that this provisional time limit that was laid down in the context of the setting being banned entirely.

 

The main argument is, it is nonsensical to apply a strict provisional limit that was written at the time the setting was not cleared, to aircraft in which the setting is cleared with no quoted strict limit of use in their manuals.

 

That shift between ban and clearance of the 1,42 ata setting happened some time from mid 1943. It also implies that the fleet was mixed: some 605As were cleared, some other were not: there is a 1944 manual for a G-6/R2 (IIRC) with 1,42 ata ban and the provisional limit, but manuals from late 1943 with 1,42 ata cleared and no time limit. I will post later the manuals underlining both these aspects.

 

One solution would be to add a DB 605A engine modification with the 1,42 ata setting cleared. Without the modification, it would be limited to 1,30 ata. This would allow to represent more accurately both the evolution in time regarding the 1,42 ata setting, and the fact that the engine fleet was mixed after the 1,42 ata setting was cleared some time around mid 1943.

 

Something similar is done for the La-5: the base plane is equipped with the M-82, with a modification to replace it with the M-82F, namely with improved cooling, and lifted strict time limit.

 

At least, that's how I understand and see the issue. Any remark or disagreement?

 

Also, I didn't get quite into Il-2 since the addition of the G-14 and the K-4. How are their WEP modeled, and is there anything problematic about it? (beyond the fact that we are in need of a better engine extreme conditions modelling wrt time limits)

Edited November 28, 2018 by EC.5/25.Corsair

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

The report is already sent, and as far as I can tell is coherent with what you wrote.

The problem I was facing was the amount of manuals I would have had to send, since as you have pointed out already, there would have been quite a lot taking into consideration the different time periods and The different engine types.

I‘ve opted to only send some select data and make it clear in the argumentation that it is time dependent.

Concerning the Me210 manual that was used as a basis to justify the 601 time limit it should be taken into account that this manual was written in November 42, in which the 1.42 ata ban was active and is likely to be a precautionary measure.

 

Thanks anyways!

Edited November 28, 2018 by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

3 hours ago, EC.5/25.Corsair said:

Also, I didn't get quite into Il-2 since the addition of the G-14 and the K-4. How are their WEP modeled, and is there anything problematic about it? (beyond the fact that we are in need of a better engine extreme conditions modelling wrt time limits) 

 

G-14 seems to encounter a drop in ATA as altitude increases when at WEP with MW50 before reaching what should be FTH.

I'm not sure if that is correct or not, but stands out as something that seems odd.

 

K4 from my recollection does not have the same issue.

Edited November 28, 2018 by =EXPEND=Tripwire

[Blutaar]

Another thing is the reusablity/cooldown of the time restrictions. Why do we need to wait more then 60 secs before the timer is replenished in the case of the DB601/5s? Heat can not be the issue because the engine dosent overheat at all. Same with the BMW801s and any other time restircted engine. Compared to heat limited engines you only need to be one second below critical temp before you can go full throttle again till you reach the maximum again. No memory effect/cooldown restriction exept for heat and that is easily fixed.

[KingstonDE]

19 hours ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

 

G-14 seems to encounter a drop in ATA as altitude increases when at WEP with MW50 before reaching what should be FTH.

I'm not sure if that is correct or not, but stands out as something that seems odd.

 

K4 from my recollection does not have the same issue.

 

Hi Tripwire,

 

both the G-14 and the K-4 have an ATA drop around 2000m up to there FTH. If it is also with MW50 on both planes i dident know, as i use MW50 only when i realy need it, most of the time when i am running . But normaly with and without the use of MW50 both planes should hold there ATA until they reach there FTH. Yes looks like there is something odd

 

Some other question is, is it right that when i use MW50 over FTH, not to gain more power as this is not possible, but to get still the cooling effect of the MW50 the nice 1 min timer starts to count, even when in the pilotnotes stands over FTH run full power settings, so the turbo / lader gets enouth air in the engin to provide the right mixture of fuel and air as the air up high is thinner, etc. . So even without MW50 we cant do it like in the pilotnotes and run over FTH max power.

 

regards

 

Little_D

[Matt]

3 hours ago, 1./JG2_Little_D said:

both the G-14 and the K-4 have an ATA drop around 2000m up to there FTH.

The K-4 doesn not have an ATA drop until reaching 6000 meters (=FTH).

 

The G-14 does, but it's already a known bug.

3 hours ago, 1./JG2_Little_D said:

Some other question is, is it right that when i use MW50 over FTH, not to gain more power as this is not possible, but to get still the cooling effect of the MW50 the nice 1 min timer starts to count

Also not the case on the K-4. It works like that on the G-14 though.

[Barnacles]

23 hours ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

 

G-14 seems to encounter a drop in ATA as altitude increases when at WEP with MW50 before reaching what should be FTH.

I'm not sure if that is correct or not, but stands out as something that seems odd.

 

K4 from my recollection does not have the same issue.

The issue with the G14 was acknowledged by one of the developers, I think. He did say that the performance did however match the historical data they had in terms of speed against altitude, even though the ATA. displayed was incorrect.

[Kurfurst]

ata readings being irrelevant to the performance of the plane makes me wonder about the model..