Welcome to Discussion About VR and VR Controllers

[GrendelsDad]

Cool, keep us informed of your progress.

will do for sure...it should arrive tomorrow but I have some writing to finish then I will dive in. I may start a Pimax thread to catalog my triumphs and tribulations lol. As I am sure there will be many.

[chiliwili69]

 

 

I just hope it releases soonish, because the other thing that's almost ready is our first baby - and once that has happened I can kiss goodbye VR for a long time!

 

Don´t worry about that. If your baby arrives first, you will most likely "re-discover" the night again. I mean, you will wake-up every 2-3 hours along the night because you baby has some needs, and after some months your sleep habits will change and you will be awake at 5:00 or 6:00 am, trying to sleep again with no success. Then, if it is weekend, you can go to fly for some hours!

[chiliwili69]

 

 

.I am getting 50 fps on the ground and 60+ in the air with three 4k monitors

 

That´s nice. What rig specs do you have? 

[GrendelsDad]

I7-6700/ 2 980ti's/ 16 gigs ram/z170 Asus mobo...

[GrendelsDad]

Holy Cow Elite looks amazing...running in steamvr

1st No screen door effect(no dsr enabled yet either)

2nd severe blurring(ghosting) in menus but game was fine...

3rd headache after 30 mins taking a break(I was spinning around like a fool)

4th going to be hard to pull this thing off my head

5th headtracking is great

6th I have a big head and glasses, comfort good

I was set up and running games in 15-20mins.

These are my early impressions of my first ever VR flight...dcs will be next...cannot wait for IL2.

[Urra]

Holy Cow Elite looks amazing...running in steamvr

1st No screen door effect(no dsr enabled yet either)

2nd severe blurring(ghosting) in menus but game was fine...

3rd headache after 30 mins taking a break(I was spinning around like a fool)

4th going to be hard to pull this thing off my head

5th headtracking is great

6th I have a big head and glasses, comfort good

I was set up and running games in 15-20mins.

These are my early impressions of my first ever VR flight...dcs will be next...cannot wait for IL2.

Highest concern for me is the reported blurring. Is it really only the the initial menus? Oculus has some blurring in while aircraft zoom past you head-on in DCS, something that is always there. If you really say there is no blurring and no screen door again I'm probably gonna sell my rift on eBay soon.

Edited March 26, 2017 by TunaEatsLion

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

Holy Cow Elite looks amazing...running in steamvr

1st No screen door effect(no dsr enabled yet either)

2nd severe blurring(ghosting) in menus but game was fine...

3rd headache after 30 mins taking a break(I was spinning around like a fool)

4th going to be hard to pull this thing off my head

5th headtracking is great

6th I have a big head and glasses, comfort good

I was set up and running games in 15-20mins.

These are my early impressions of my first ever VR flight...dcs will be next...cannot wait for IL2.

 

Please, sir, I want some more.

[GrendelsDad]

Tuna...the screen door is gone...the blurring is evident in game but for flight sims I equate it to motion blur which is not bad to me. If you find the in game cinematic view an issue then you may not like this. Also Pimax support has said they are work in on a fix for the motion blur I am pretty sure. I do worry the planes in bos may blur pretty bad but the bogeys in Elite are crisp. Give me a few days to get over the wow factor and I will have a better idea how it shakes out. DCS looks awesome but I did have to lower some settings. You feel like you can reach out and touch the cockpits...I am amazed. So as long as it works with BOS I am sold. Also as you read my critiques just know this is the only headset I have tried.

Edited March 26, 2017 by II./ZG1_GrendelsDad

[Urra]

Tuna...the screen door is gone...the blurring is evident in game but for flight sims I equate it to motion blur which is not bad to me. If you find the in game cinematic view an issue then you may not like this. Also Pimax support has said they are work in on a fix for the motion blur I am pretty sure. I do worry the planes in bos may blur pretty bad but the bogeys in Elite are crisp. Give me a few days to get over the wow factor and I will have a better idea how it shakes out. DCS looks awesome but I did have to lower some settings. You feel like you can reach out and touch the cockpits...I am amazed. So as long as it works with BOS I am sold. Also as you read my critiques just know this is the only headset I have tried.

Lowering settings is a necessity, but I can tell you that even with the resolution issue of rift, in dcs the mirage2000 cockpit feels as real as it will ever get. The red color illumination within the cockpit, its interior boxy lines, make feel like a good old Audi. You may notice that aiming is a lot easier over the hood, at least it seems that way for me. On a monitor you take your 50/50 chances on a head to head approach, but in vr its just necessary to align yourself and pull the trigger.

 

Looking forward to a pimax in 6-12 months time.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

GrendelsDad, you say, "headtracking is great".  Is this referring to TrackIR or just the built in tracking?  How TrackIR works with it is what I am most interested in to get 6DoF.  Also, if you are using TrackIR, did you have to change the TrackIR profile in any way?

[1./KG4_EKat]

 

 

Tuna...the screen door is gone...

 

Good to hear that you're having a great first impression. Recommend that you try to at least demo the Vive or Rift and then compare for screen door effect.  I demo'd the Vive at a Microsoft store before diving in and buying the Vive.  From what I've read on VR, in respect to the screen door issue and the human eye, we can expect it will take many generational improvements of screen projection technology before it will truly 'disappear'.  Notability of the effect depends on the user's immersion and is a place to consider a usability compromise. I've been so involved in play that I don't even notice the effect. Then again, sometimes it's suddenly all I can and see. Game engine, lens type (Fresnel v. refractive), pixel-switching time, and latency also contribute to the overall experience. Hopefully the Pimax is going to give you at least a good look at how 4K does help with resolution and screen door.  While any comparison to Vive/Rift will be apples and oranges, I urge you to demo the other headsets and provide us your impressions. 

[dburne]

 From what I've read on VR, in respect to the screen door issue and the human eye, we can expect it will take many generational improvements of screen projection technology before it will truly 'disappear'.  Notability of the effect depends on the user's immersion and is a place to consider a usability compromise. I've been so involved in play that I don't even notice the effect.  

 

That has been my experience with the Rift as well. Did not really notice it until I saw others talking about it on the forums, then I started noticing it at times. Most times I don't even realize it is there as I am so immersed in the experience.

[dburne]

Holy Cow Elite looks amazing...running in steamvr

1st No screen door effect(no dsr enabled yet either)

2nd severe blurring(ghosting) in menus but game was fine...

3rd headache after 30 mins taking a break(I was spinning around like a fool)

4th going to be hard to pull this thing off my head

5th headtracking is great

6th I have a big head and glasses, comfort good

I was set up and running games in 15-20mins.

These are my early impressions of my first ever VR flight...dcs will be next...cannot wait for IL2.

 

 

 

Congrats and welcome to the wonderful world of VR!

[kissklas]

Holy Cow Elite looks amazing...running in steamvr

1st No screen door effect(no dsr enabled yet either)

2nd severe blurring(ghosting) in menus but game was fine...

3rd headache after 30 mins taking a break(I was spinning around like a fool)

4th going to be hard to pull this thing off my head

5th headtracking is great

6th I have a big head and glasses, comfort good

I was set up and running games in 15-20mins.

These are my early impressions of my first ever VR flight...dcs will be next...cannot wait for IL2.

Congrats with the headset, and welcome to the VR world!

 

By the way, for nr 3: Double check the lens distance. If it's a bit off, headaches can occur.

[F1RacerDan]

im really confused? is VR implemented or not, ive tried launching it with SteamVR but it doesnt work? Am i missing something lol

[GrendelsDad]

No sorry Dan not yet but possible for this week...I was just discussing my impressions of other games with my new headset just waiting for IL2.

[coconut]

@@F1RacerDan It's in closed beta at the moment. Only testers have access to VR.

[F1RacerDan]

ahh okay, ive only just purchased today after seeing its getting support so il get all my controls setup all ready. this game in VR is going to be epic

[von-Luck]

Eagerly looking forward to flying IL2. WT's charms are wearing thin. I'll miss my zero and P-38 sorely though . . . Especially the A6M3 seal clubbing people in that thing is immensely entertaining.

 

 

 

von Luck

Edited March 27, 2017 by von-Luck

[dburne]

One quesion I was wondering about has now been answered, Han mentioned today in the Question to Developers thread there will be no VR Zoom feature implemented.

 

I guess I have mixed feelings on it, while DCS does have it and it is nice, and can be assigned to a toggle and/or a button press, I find I really don't use it much as it is kind of awkard to use. And flying close combat in WWII with things being pretty much life size in VR and don't have as much a need for it.

[Urra]

One quesion I was wondering about has now been answered, Han mentioned today in the Question to Developers thread there will be no VR Zoom feature implemented.

 

I guess I have mixed feelings on it, while DCS does have it and it is nice, and can be assigned to a toggle and/or a button press, I find I really don't use it much as it is kind of awkard to use. And flying close combat in WWII with things being pretty much life size in VR and don't have as much a need for it.

Seeing as the pimax4k has 3.2x as many pixels as oculus (if I got my #s right), it might not be an issue at this point. Edited March 28, 2017 by TunaEatsLion

[TheSNAFU]

Does the lack of zoom mean no leaning forward, backward or side to side or is it purely zooming the view in and out?

[Urra]

Does the lack of zoom mean no leaning forward, backward or side to side or is it purely zooming the view in and out?

Purely zooming as far as I know.

[dburne]

Does the lack of zoom mean no leaning forward, backward or side to side or is it purely zooming the view in and out?

 

Ya I am sure it is only purely zooming, moving- leaning I am sure will be reflected appropriately.

[chiliwili69]

 

 

Most times I don't even realize it is there as I am so immersed in the experience.

 

Yes, It is exactly like that for me. If you want to see it you can see it, but the immersion makes you (at least for me) to forget it.

For the resolution it is also the same. The immersion makes me to forget that it is much lower than in a 4K monitor.

[chiliwili69]

 

 

DCS looks awesome but I did have to lower some settings

 

Good to hear your feedback about Pimax. It is very good to have more than two choices(Rift&Vive) in the market. this will speed up the VR revolution even further. 

 

I see that you have 2x980Ti, but SLI, as far as I know, is still not mainstream supported in VR (it will for sure). So you are using the Pimax with one single 980Ti.

 

In the rift/vive, just pixels counts 2.6million to render at 90Hz, but for VR render the requirements are higher (1.7 higher), so it is needed 400 million pixels per second. 

(I made the calculations two years ago:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/17073-will-single-gtx970-be-enough-run-bos-vr/?hl=gtx970&do=findComment&comment=272803)

 

So now for the Pimax the required GPU Power is too demanding. Based on this:

 https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B48gEYiKwYegT1JHREZKbXVCNms

 

Pimax will require 3.2*60/90= 2.13 more power than the Rift to run at its frequency (60Hz).

 

Let´s see soon what is the frame rate in BOS with Rift/Vive and the required downgrade in detail(Ultra/High/Low) to run at 90fps.

 

Probably for Pimax you will need more than a 1080Ti. Let´s see first if BOX run well with Pimax which uses OpenVR.

 

Pimax looks good, but the lack of positional tracking (in a cockpit is good) and the 60Hz refresh rate, makes me re-think it.

 

Good days for VR!

[Urra]

Good to hear your feedback about Pimax. It is very good to have more than two choices(Rift&Vive) in the market. this will speed up the VR revolution even further.

 

I see that you have 2x980Ti, but SLI, as far as I know, is still not mainstream supported in VR (it will for sure). So you are using the Pimax with one single 980Ti.

 

In the rift/vive, just pixels counts 2.6million to render at 90Hz, but for VR render the requirements are higher (1.7 higher), so it is needed 400 million pixels per second.

(I made the calculations two years ago:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/17073-will-single-gtx970-be-enough-run-bos-vr/?hl=gtx970&do=findComment&comment=272803)

 

So now for the Pimax the required GPU Power is too demanding. Based on this:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B48gEYiKwYegT1JHREZKbXVCNms

 

Pimax will require 3.2*60/90= 2.13 more power than the Rift to run at its frequency (60Hz).

 

Let´s see soon what is the frame rate in BOS with Rift/Vive and the required downgrade in detail(Ultra/High/Low) to run at 90fps.

 

Probably for Pimax you will need more than a 1080Ti. Let´s see first if BOX run well with Pimax which uses OpenVR.

 

Pimax looks good, but the lack of positional tracking (in a cockpit is good) and the 60Hz refresh rate, makes me re-think it.

 

Good days for VR!

Okay. For my rift my 980 is more than enough at native resolution(it runs with 1.5 scalefactor fine for me) One 1080 = 1.8×980. Also one 1080ti = 1.3x1080. So you have 1.3x1.8x980 = 1080ti. 1.8x1.3=2.34. == no problems at all for 1080ti to run pimax4k. I hope.

 

I see people mention that there are alternatives to 6dof that you can buy for 60$ and add-on to pimax to have that 6dog, but I have never seen mentioned specifically what that is actually.

Edited March 29, 2017 by TunaEatsLion

[chiliwili69]

 

 

For my rift my 980 is more than enough at native resolution

 

This is a very subjective matter. All depends on what game, what settings and also if you are using the ASW enabled.

 

Without ASW, there are some testings in VR of the NVidia 10 series, and with Ultra settings in Robo Recall even the 1080Ti was not able to reach 90fps:

http://www.roadtovr.com/vr-ready-gpu-benchmark-comparison-nvidia-gtx-1080-ti-1080-1070-1060-amd-rx-480-fcat-vr/

 

The tester, who gave feedback in the DD a couple of weeks ago, was using the Vive and a 1080 and he said it was good. We don´t know what settings he was using.

 

In any case, we will soon know if our rigs are powerfull enough to run BoX in VR without decreasing too much the settings. To be honest, I still have my doubts about my 1070...

[dburne]

 

In any case, we will soon know if our rigs are powerfull enough to run BoX in VR without decreasing too much the settings. To be honest, I still have my doubts about my 1070...

 

Pretty sure they will have to be reduced, by how much I guess only the testers currently know. Of course with the presets there is only so much we can do to balance things.

[Urra]

It might be of help to someone so I'm posting here. Seems someone got pimax4k to work with 6dof of trackir. Link is here to info. http://forum.pimaxvr.com/t/got-trackir-working-with-pimax-in-dcs-world/1529

Edited March 30, 2017 by TunaEatsLion

[F1RacerDan]

dont get me wrong more VR headsets on the market is great but as an owner of both the rift and the vive. (vive is actually being sold next week as i never use it). The pimax was something i got to try recently and tbh it was great but lack of controller and support with games is poor, i kind of feel like saying to just leave it up to the big guys (oculus, steam and sony). 4k is great but the hardware needed is too much and the extra your saving on a cheaper headset your having to spend on mor hardware and with less games. just my 2 cents

Edited March 30, 2017 by F1RacerDan

[Bearfoot]

It might be of help to someone so I'm posting here. Seems someone got pimax4k to work with 6dof of trackir. Link is here to info. http://forum.pimaxvr.com/t/got-trackir-working-with-pimax-in-dcs-world/1529

 

That is useful.

 

I actually talked to the poster regarding this over at the other forums, saying:

 

 

 

Thanks for your review!

 

I am new to VR, via the Oculus Rift, and am still within the return period, so am keenly interested in exploring alternatives before that return period is up!

 

So, the wow factor in VR is great and all, but that's going to fade as the brain adjusts to getting used to things. Conversely, going from a 4K monitor giving me 90-160 FPS to 1080×1200 at 45 FPS average will take some getting used to as the wow factor diminishes, not only from an emotional/aesthetic viewpoint, but a practical one: reading gauges, and, far, far, far, far, far more difficult, object spotting (ground as well as air). 

 

In fact, object spotting right now SUCKS. If I know something (WW2 fighter-sized, for e.g.) is out there in a particular direction, I can maybe spot it 5 nm out. If I don't know where to look, fuggitabodit. Maybe I will get better over time, but right now, it's a major problem. I think this can be improved on the DCS side of things by a large amount, because I think target-spotting has always been one of the issues with DCS, but there is probably a practical limit with the resolution offered by VR.

 

So, in that respect, it seems like Pimax will be a huge advantage over OR/Vive.

 

On the other hand, I find that with the OR my situational awareness has GREATLY improved. I mean, I am like in another universe altogether where I actually understand where everything is around me, whether or not they are in my FOV or not. It really is transformative. Apart from the depth perception of VR (and thus, better intuitive judgement of moving object vectors in relation to yours), this is because of the one-to-one correspondence of the head movement and virtual movement, as well as the one-to-one correspondence of the head direction/vector and where you are looking in the virtual world. All of these are lacking with TrackIR, and that added layer of abstraction/mapping made things challenging (not saying that it cannot be overcome as one practices and learns to develop the right judgement/intuition).

 

If I am understanding things right, with the Pimax, while you of course retain the depth perception which will help with the SA, one thing you are losing is the 1-to-1 correspondence between head movement and angle and the virtual world head movement/angle. That is, this will be as bad as TrackIR in that respect. 

 

Is that correct?

 

In which case, for ME, I think that I will have to balance the higher pixel resolution with this more than anything else ...

 

And he was kind enough to respond with the following detailed answer:

 

 

 

Not exactly - TLDR: the Pimax has 3DOF, and does track pitch, yaw and roll head movements 1 to 1. However, it does not track up/down (DCS z-axis), left/right (DCS y-axis), or forward back (DCS x-axis).

 

The Pimax has an internal gyro for head position, but does not have base stations to track position away from the original place that you spawn into the cockpit.

 

So, I can move my head 180 degrees to the left and see the aircraft tail just as if I were in an actual aircraft (1 to 1). I can also look all the way up and down 1 to 1, and roll works wherever I'm looking.

 

I cannot move horizontally left/right (e.g. to see around the HUD) or forward/back (e.g. to look around the canopy bow), nor vertically up/down (e.g. to get a better view over the nose). You could use the Rt-Ctrl + Rt-Shift + Keypad keys for those axes, but obviously that's not activated by head movement. If you want all 6DOF, you would need to use the TrackIR with it, but as you say, it cannot turn 180 degrees to look directly behind 1 to 1.

 

I imagine you can get 6DOF with the Vive and Oculus because they have base stations, but since I don't have either of those, I can't confirm that.

 

I have used it with the Track IR over-riding the Pimax gyros, but again, looking left/right is not 1 to 1.

 

I briefly tried to use the left/right/up/down/forwards/back of the TrackIR in combination with the pitch, yaw, and roll of the Pimax, but had no luck. I gave up when I remembered that the TrackIR would not continue to work when I turned my head to look directly behind with the Pimax.

 

Right now, it might be (for me), the gain in pixel resolution is not enough to offset the 1-to-1 tracking of head movement which I the greatest practical benefit of VR over the wow factor of the depth perception ...

[Urra]

That is useful.

 

I actually talked to the poster regarding this over at the other forums, saying:

 

 

 

And he was kind enough to respond with the following detailed answer:

 

 

 

Right now, it might be (for me), the gain in pixel resolution is not enough to offset the 1-to-1 tracking of head movement which I the greatest practical benefit of VR over the wow factor of the depth perception ...

I guess the main question is whether this user gets sea sickness from looking 180 back left/right in the cockpit after turning his head only 30degrees. I'm so used to doing it in front of monitor I don't think about it. trackir is fairly steady if set it up properly, but I wouldn't know if this combination can save me from neck surgery unless I try it. Best that could be done is to give him my trackir profile and get some feedback on what it felt like. Edited March 30, 2017 by TunaEatsLion

[dburne]

Something to consider in the decision making process is what one is going to use the headset for. Initially when I got my Rift, I figured I would just use it for flight sims as that is all I pretty much did, and would be quite happy with that . But with the positional tracking , and seeing posts talking about other FPS style games on the Oculus forums and how neat the Touch controllers were , I gave it a whirl. Plus with the Touch controllers one gets some pretty cool games with them.

 

So while flight sims still get the bulk of my time, I am having a blast with some other games using the Touch controllers. I have what Oculus setup considers a moderate play area, around 7ft x 9 ft. Oculus can certainly do larger, but my area here is somewhat confined. I can play some FPS games and be standing and moving around, fighting bad guys coming from all around me - including from behind, kneeling on the floor hiding behind a container, raising up to shoot, etc. Pretty cool stuff actually.

 

Lol right after I first got the Touch controllers setup and gave them a try, there I was standing and moving around shooting the bad guys all around me.

Now unbeknownst to me at the time, my wonderful wife happened to be taking a video of it with her cell phone. Course with the headset on I was oblivious to this.

It was not pretty...

[HagarTheHorrible]

Lol right after I first got the Touch controllers setup and gave them a try, there I was standing and moving around shooting the bad guys all around me.

Now unbeknownst to me at the time, my wonderful wife happened to be taking a video of it with her cell phone. Course with the headset on I was oblivious to this.

It was not pretty...

I hope you don't intend keeping it to yourself ?

 

My wife is scared to come near me in case I accidentally thump her while ripping the heads off robots in RoboRecall, it can all get a little frenetic. I can't imagine trying to explain that to a police officer.

Edited March 30, 2017 by HagarTheHorrible

[dburne]

I hope you don't intend keeping it to yourself ?

 

 

LOL oh yeah, that will never see the light of day!

[Bearfoot]

So amidst all the good news in the Dev Diary, two items less-then-great/partially not-good news regarding VR:

 

(1) it appears that VR-in-March is not happening?

 

(2) it appears confirmed that the devs are targeting OpenVR? Good news for most except Oculus Rift owners: non-native SDK for Oculus Rift means performance hit for OR users -- how much and whether it will make a big difference remains to be seen ....

[dburne]

So amidst all the good news in the Dev Diary, two items less-then-great/partially not-good news regarding VR:

 

(1) it appears that VR-in-March is not happening?

 

(2) it appears confirmed that the devs are targeting OpenVR? Good news for most except Oculus Rift owners: non-native SDK for Oculus Rift means performance hit for OR users -- how much and whether it will make a big difference remains to be seen ....

 

1: Certainly not looking like it, sounds like they want to complete beta testing of 2.009 ( which contains more than VR) first which is understandable. But also sounds like it is getting very close now.

 

2: Yeah I think we had a pretty good hint of that earlier, it will be interesting for sure.  I myself have yet to run any title through Steam VR on my Rift. I am sure their Rift testers will be able to share some info along with tips on getting the best performance with the Rift through Steam VR.

[LLv24_Zami]

Well, not long anymore before we can test BoX VR ourselves. Very interesting to try it with Rift and looking forward to hear reports from Pimax users. If Pimax is working satisfactorily with this game, I might get it to replace my Rift. Resolution is still quite big issue to me, I don`t know if I will ever get used to it. Other than that, device is great.

[GrendelsDad]

I know each game is different but I have no issues running SteamVr and getting Oculus support with Assetto Corsa through my Pimax headset using revive latest versions of all software.  So with one less hoop to jump through I believe it will run smoothly for Oculus users even if the performance is impacted a bit.  I personally don't notice a difference in my headset but I am maxing out as 60 fps so that could be a major difference when trying to stay above 90 fps at all times?  

 

 

GrendelsDad, you say, "headtracking is great".  Is this referring to TrackIR or just the built in tracking?  How TrackIR works with it is what I am most interested in to get 6DoF.  Also, if you are using TrackIR, did you have to change the TrackIR profile in any way?

Stick I was just referring to some of the negative reviews online about the head tracking not being very good.  I find it works quite well but no 6dof. I will try to use the Pimax and Trackir through vjoy or something and will let you know how it goes.