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NoMoreSteam

What kind of force feedback device do you use?

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Long time ago, for MS CFS and the original IL-2 I have tried Logitech FF joystick. That was exciting experience, but the device deteriorated shooting accuracy and proved to be unreliable. But I still miss the feeling of wheels touching ground, bullets hitting my plane etc.

Recently I have discovered Buttkicker and Gametrix JetSeat. It seems the first one just extracts low frequency content from the game sound and convert it to vibrations, while the Gametrix probably works similar to FF joysticks, i.e. uses dedicated signals for effects generation.

Do you have any experience with both?

Is there any other FF device you can recommend, except joysticks?

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My wife stands behind me when I'm flying and when she sees something happen on the monitor, she shakes the hell out of my chair.  Sorry, couldn't resist.

  • Haha 2

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Where I can order one unit? :lol:

I am trying to imagine what she does when you crash...

Edited by NoMoreSteam

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I use the MS Sidewinder Force Feedback 2, with an extension. Can't go back. Feeling the stall limit, damaged control surfaces and touchdowns helps a lot, and it's very immersive.

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I use the MS Sidewinder Force Feedback 2, with an extension. Can't go back. Feeling the stall limit, damaged control surfaces and touchdowns helps a lot, and it's very immersive.

I have Saitek X52 already in use, now I can't imagine using anything other, than Hall sensors, at least for elevator/pitch... AFAIK MS SW FF2 is built around potentiometers. I would like to avoid changing joystick...

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I have Saitek X52 already in use, now I can't imagine using anything other, than Hall sensors, at least for elevator/pitch... AFAIK MS SW FF2 is built around potentiometers. I would like to avoid changing joystick...

Very understandable. Hall sensors are great. Especially compared to a lot of the rubbish pots in some of today's sticks. The ffb2 pots are extremely good though.

 

I have heard a lot of good things about the buttkicker, but it seams to only use the game sounds to create rumble. There are also yokes being made with ffb now but they are quite expensive. Another alternative is motion platforms, although they are not supported in BoX since they need a telemetry export from the game.

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I am using a G940 and so far it has been fine: I tried using no FF for a while and found it incredibly difficult and much less fun. It is a shame that this feature is no longer common.

 

I have not tried FF elsewhere - Buttkicker always sounded a bit... odd. :)

 

What I would like to see in game is a simple G meter - I would not fly with it on all the time, usually I have no HUD at all, but it would be interesting to see what is happening to the seat of the pants since we cannot actually feel it.

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I had a Buttkicker quite a while ago.  It clamped  around the main support of an office chair and was plugged into the sound.  It picked up from the bass sound of the game to drive it.  The problem I ran into and couldn't solve was when on Teamspeak, if someone had a low voice, it too came through as vibrations on your butt.  It had to go.

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...if someone had a low voice, it too came through as vibrations on your butt.  It had to go.

" I am on your six...."

"EEEK!"  

 

:biggrin:

  • Haha 2

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That is why I am thinking about Gametrix... anyone have tried it? Currently no BoX support, but CloD pilots have the chance...

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That is why I am thinking about Gametrix... anyone have tried it? Currently no BoX support, but CloD pilots have the chance...

 

I have heard Gametrix JetSeat works great for DCS. Therefore I put an order of JetSeat already. I hope IL-2 BOX will support it soon. 

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Gametrix JetSeat was discontinued - end of 2016 I think (still possible buy with Andre in DCSW topic).

Difficultly Bo'X will add support for a discontinued and almost unknown device, BoS don't support due the little number of users (answer in Q&A)   :mellow:

 

Possible issue - present in CloD partial support for JetSeat: the game support only one Force Feedback device.

Edited by Sokol1

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https://www.gametrix.eu/products/gametrix-kw-908-jetseat-turbojet - available again in 3 days :)

The device seems to be quite popular among the players owning supported games:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gametrix+jetseat

 

Guys at Gametrix have somewhat different view on the reason for the lack of support by BoX, but I wonder if it is a right place to discuss any personal frictions between Gametrix/BoX managers...

 

My point is: PLEASE abandon these irrational animosities for the good of players! This would benefit us all: players, game developers and... Gametrix team (forgive them ;)

Edited by NoMoreSteam

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Well, since they will sell JetSeat's again, post in "Qeustion for Developers"  thread about future support.  :)

 

The reason give  for no actual support is few owners of device - sold initially basically only in Russian market.

 

 


Hot_Dog, on 13 Nov 2015 - 05:36, said:snapback.png

Hi, do you plan to add support (force feedback effects) for Gametrix KW-901 seat? http://gametrix.ru/products/3

If so, when please? Thanks for answer...

 

For now we're not - too less custom

 

If support is added, Gametrix and the Andre guy will be happy.  :biggrin:

Edited by Sokol1

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I had a Buttkicker quite a while ago.  It clamped  around the main support of an office chair and was plugged into the sound.  It picked up from the bass sound of the game to drive it.  The problem I ran into and couldn't solve was when on Teamspeak, if someone had a low voice, it too came through as vibrations on your butt.  It had to go.

You CAN sole this issue see here http://dangerdogz.com/forums/topic/12393-buttkicker-gamer-2-usb-headset-setup-guide/ You can set different source for Buttkicker.

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msffb2 with self built extension and ch-fighterstick grip on it...so pretty much a frankenstein msffb2. i love ffb, but would really hope, that they improve ffb overall in this sim, which is still really lacking in many ways....i would wish for ffb like in the old il2 1946, and a more pronounced buffeting effect, while independent from the gunshake, which is rubbish anyway.

all in all, ffb is arcady and has nothing to do with a hardcore simulation of flight tbh. in real life for example you dont feel jumps on the stick when you touch down...here is hoping that the devs will give ffb some love.

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I have Saitek X52 already in use, now I can't imagine using anything other, than Hall sensors, at least for elevator/pitch... AFAIK MS SW FF2 is built around potentiometers. I would like to avoid changing joystick...

 

Sidewinder FFB2 uses potentiometers (analogic signal) only in Rudder and Throttle Axis. X/Y axis use other sensors type (optical?, Hall?).

 

"The X and Y axes do not use pots, they use sensors, I think they are Hall sensors, but I have never had to touch them. They are incredibly reliable very precise, do not break, do not need recalibrating."

 

https://riseofflight.com/forum/topic/37104-did-i-get-screwed-microsoft-sidewinder-force-feedback-2/?p=540905

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Sidewinder FFB2 uses potentiometers (analogic signal) only in Rudder and Throttle Axis. X/Y axis use other sensors type (optical?, Hall?).

 

"The X and Y axes do not use pots, they use sensors, I think they are Hall sensors, but I have never had to touch them. They are incredibly reliable very precise, do not break, do not need recalibrating."

 

https://riseofflight.com/forum/topic/37104-did-i-get-screwed-microsoft-sidewinder-force-feedback-2/?p=540905

 

MS FFB2 USB X, Y axes use conventional potentiometer - in some Russian forum are showed pictures of one these pot "dissected", is just a conventional potentiometer.

 

The previous model MS FFB PRO (Gameport/USB adapter) use optical sensor (similar to mouse).

 

Since MSFFB2 pot' last longer - Sidewinder production end in 2003 - probable are Panasonic (or other good brand) potentiometer rated to 1M cycles.

 

The potentiometer in other joysticks brands are typically ~ 100.000 rated cycles low cost models.

 

Saitek's X-5x use Polyshine brand pot' in axes other that not X, Y, there use contactless (HALL sensor).

 

I use for a period MSFFB PRO gmeport and MSFFB 2 USB, and never find then "the best" for WWII flight games main purpose: put the gunsight piper over the bandit:)

 

And since find most of the "feedback" effects "gamey", e.g. the cannon shake, runway bumps... sell then.

Edited by Sokol1

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MS FFB2 USB X, Y axes use conventional potentiometer - in some Russian forum are showed pictures of one these pot "dissected", is just a conventional potentiometer.

 

The previous model MS FFB PRO (Gameport/USB adapter) use optical sensor (similar to mouse).

 

Since MSFFB2 pot' last longer - Sidewinder production end in 2003 - probable are Panasonic (or other good brand) potentiometer rated to 1M cycles.

 

The potentiometer in other joysticks brands are typically ~ 100.000 rated cycles low cost models.

 

Saitek's X-5x use Polyshine brand pot' in axes other that not X, Y, there use contactless (HALL sensor).

 

I use for a period MSFFB PRO gmeport and MSFFB 2 USB, and never find then "the best" for WWII flight games main purpose: put the gunsight piper over the bandit:)

 

And since find most of the "feedback" effects "gamey", e.g. the cannon shake, runway bumps... sell then.

 

Then his behavior is like an hall or optical sensor ... I have one for 15 years and (x-y axis) no presents any peaks.

 

Thanks Sokol1

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I use a MS FFB2 as my main and a Cyborg Evo flightstick as a throttle.

 

I've had my FFB2 for over ten-years and it still works like a charm.

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Is there some problems installing the Sidewinder to a modern pc? And how is it to combine with IL2?

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14 minutes ago, WhiteMoose said:

Is there some problems installing the Sidewinder to a modern pc? And how is it to combine with IL2?

 

The Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 works like a charm. The game supports force feedback:) The older Sidewinder sticks however I am not sure about. They used gameport did they not?

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1 hour ago, kissklas said:

 

The Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 works like a charm. The game supports force feedback:) The older Sidewinder sticks however I am not sure about. They used gameport did they not?

I’m thinking of buying one on eBay.

do you fell when you are firing as well?

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@WhiteMoose buy the stick, you'll never go back to non-ffb.

 

I've got the g940 - which has a host of issues you'll have to modify out yourself, and the msffb2 which has fewer buttons and lower resolution...

 

Ultimately the plan is to 3d print a new stick for the msffb2 - add a custom button+Axis controller to the stick and expand its capabilities. 

 

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1 hour ago, [_FLAPS_]Dirt_Merchant said:

@WhiteMoose buy the stick, you'll never go back to non-ffb.

 

I've got the g940 - which has a host of issues you'll have to modify out yourself, and the msffb2 which has fewer buttons and lower resolution...

 

Ultimately the plan is to 3d print a new stick for the msffb2 - add a custom button+Axis controller to the stick and expand its capabilities. 

 

Wow, that sound great to modify it! Do you know any good guides? 

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On 3/9/2017 at 7:03 PM, NoMoreSteam said:

I have tried Logitech FF joystick. 

 

The only FFB joystick that really worth - but will not help your aim,  is the old Microsoft Force Feedback 2 USB.

 

Quote

Recently I have discovered Buttkicker and Gametrix JetSeat.

 

JetSeat is a kind of "feedback" seat - with motors for provide vibrations, and depends on game output data for work well.

For now IL-2 GB support is very limited: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/44048-motion-support-for-il-2/#comments

Since this device (JetSeat) has few users - was released only for CIS market and was a commercial failure there, end in a kind of "egg and chicken" situation.

 

 

 

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On 10/7/2019 at 10:57 AM, WhiteMoose said:

I’m thinking of buying one on eBay.

do you fell when you are firing as well?

 

It does indeed shake when you fire! There are also a ton of ways to mod it, like strengthening the forces. I also made an extension for it a while back that is printable.

 

Here is mine currently😅

b931cfc75c73f02e0425e0a7970dd5d4.jpg

 

You won't regret getting one!

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On 10/8/2019 at 2:49 PM, kissklas said:

 

It does indeed shake when you fire! There are also a ton of ways to mod it, like strengthening the forces. I also made an extension for it a while back that is printable.

 

Here is mine currently😅

b931cfc75c73f02e0425e0a7970dd5d4.jpg

 

You won't regret getting one!

Wow Thats awesome! could you point me in some direction so I can make one. Im waiting on a ffb2. What to do next?

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20 minutes ago, WhiteMoose said:

Wow Thats awesome! could you point me in some direction so I can make one. Im waiting on a ffb2. What to do next?

Thanks! Making a printable DYI kit for the spade grip, but it's not done. you can probably subscribe to this thread and I'll update it once it's ready.

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6 minutes ago, kissklas said:

Thanks! Making a printable DYI kit for the spade grip, but it's not done. you can probably subscribe to this thread and I'll update it once it's ready.

 

Are there different sidewinder ffb2 stick out there and are there some modells that won't work for this project?

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Just now, WhiteMoose said:

 

Are there different sidewinder ffb2 stick out there and are there some modells that won't work for this project?

There are sidewinders that are without force feedback, but i think they are called precision pro, and there is a Sidewinder force feedback 1 which is gameport only. What you need is a Force Feedback 2. There are two editions: one with a green light, and one with a red one. Both are compatible with the same mods. Only cosmetical differences as far as mechanics go.

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2 minutes ago, kissklas said:

There are sidewinders that are without force feedback, but i think they are called precision pro, and there is a Sidewinder force feedback 1 which is gameport only. What you need is a Force Feedback 2. There are two editions: one with a green light, and one with a red one. Both are compatible with the same mods. Only cosmetical differences as far as mechanics go.

Okey good. I was a little worried because the one I orderd didn't look like yours =P

 

7 minutes ago, kissklas said:

There are sidewinders that are without force feedback, but i think they are called precision pro, and there is a Sidewinder force feedback 1 which is gameport only. What you need is a Force Feedback 2. There are two editions: one with a green light, and one with a red one. Both are compatible with the same mods. Only cosmetical differences as far as mechanics go.

Pleas tell me this one works 

Skärmavbild 2019-10-09 kl. 18.43.32.png

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23 minutes ago, WhiteMoose said:

Okey good. I was a little worried because the one I orderd didn't look like yours =P

 

Pleas tell me this one works 

Skärmavbild 2019-10-09 kl. 18.43.32.png

That looks like a sidewinder 1. Not even sure you'll get it to work since it uses gameport:/

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38 minutes ago, kissklas said:

That looks like a sidewinder 1. Not even sure you'll get it to work since it uses gameport:/

yes I suspected that... I´ll go looking for the right one. What is a reasonable price for one?

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10 minutes ago, WhiteMoose said:

yes I suspected that... I´ll go looking for the right one. What is a reasonable price for one?

 

I'd say about 50-65$ is reasonable on ebay. But if you look around for a bit you might find one for cheap. I found one that was in the original package once, for 15$. That was lucky though.

 

Btw this is what you want:

41EbG6WaBQL._AC_SY400_.jpg

 

Could have a green light and darker buttons on the base, but it's still the same. The non force feedback version has an indent on the base, so look for a base that is essentially half a sphere.

 

Good luck!

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11 minutes ago, kissklas said:

 

I'd say about 50-65$ is reasonable on ebay. But if you look around for a bit you might find one for cheap. I found one that was in the original package once, for 15$. That was lucky though.

 

Btw this is what you want:

41EbG6WaBQL._AC_SY400_.jpg

 

Could have a green light and darker buttons on the base, but it's still the same. The non force feedback version has an indent on the base, so look for a base that is essentially half a sphere.

 

Good luck!

Thanks mate. 
I’ll go looking for one. And get back later. 

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Posted (edited)
On 10/7/2019 at 5:57 AM, WhiteMoose said:

I’m thinking of buying one on eBay.

 

 

Buy only if are Microsoft ForceFeeback 2 USB. Will be "pnp" for Windows 10. Pay attention if seller has the power cable. 

 

A "Internet legend" say that red trigger units is the best (seems due firmware) but grip is rubberized, what may became gummy.

 

The early Microsoft ForceFeeback PRO (in your post above) is gameport version (few of latest units came with a Gameport to USB adapter) and is not compatible with today computers. A DIY Arduino adapter project exist.

Edited by Sokol1

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25 minutes ago, Sokol1 said:

 

Buy only if are Microsoft ForceFeeback 2 USB. Will be "pnp" for Windows 10. Pay attention if seller has the power cable. 

 

A "Internet legend" say that red trigger units is the best (seems due firmware) but grip is rubberized, what may became gummy.

 

The early Microsoft ForceFeeback PRO (in your post above) is gameport version (few of latest units came with a Gameport to USB adapter) and is not compatible with today computers. A DIY Arduino adapter project exist.

thanks for all the help mate. I´ll will take a look

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Using MSFF2 (plus 1 x spare in the box) and gametrix 908 jetseat :))

 

Also have a FF headset (eDimensional AudioFX2 FF Vibration Headset). 
 

Can't enjoy flying without FF.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

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