kissklas Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 Try forcing the tail down for a longer time. Don't let if off the ground when it wants to. That worked for me.
Finkeren Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 Try forcing the tail down for a longer time. Don't let if off the ground when it wants to. That worked for me. I've tried it all several times over. Every setting of trim. Every amount of throttle, applied fast and slow. Keeping the tail up or down or not touching the stick at all. Going easy on the pedals, going fast on the pedals. Nothing helps. If it wasn't for the fact, that this happens only with the MiG I'd be looking for a controller issue. In fact I have been doing that as well. Everything works as it should. As I said: Even if it turns out, that I'm just a horrible pilot and I at some point get to a succesful take off, I'll maintain, that there's something wrong with this way of modeling, at least as I've experienced it. 1
bzc3lk Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 (edited) Try forcing the tail down for a longer time. Don't let if off the ground when it wants to. That worked for me. I've found this technique works for me. Dev Diary about the Mig was enlightening, especially talking about the "strict procedure" when landing. Worth another look. http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/#dd5 Edited October 25, 2016 by bzc3lk
bzc3lk Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 Classic quote from that diary: "We will try to make the FMs as good as possible, but I'm confident that no matter what we do, disputes over the FM will be your favorite entertainment on the forum." LOL
Zygiert Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 Ground loops at higher speeds are IMO effect of "ground friction" changes in update. It's just that previously planes were more floaty, now if you overdo the yaw input it just groundloop, similiary to the car which turn its wheels too much at high speed, and then go into drift/slide.
BlitzPig_EL Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 Two steps forward, one step back... Same as it ever was.
Danziger Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 (edited) They are having the same discussion in the 2.004 thread on the Russian forum. Only they have more trouble with landing than taking off. Han has been pretty involved in the discussion giving tips and instructions. I remember people having the same problems when the MiG-3 was first introduced. There is definitely a two-phase takeoff procedure in regard to rudder application before and after the tail lifts off. The major engine torque combined with strange tail wheel lock mechanism can make it tricky but it's quite do-able. Also, the rebuilt MiG-3 seen in the Dev Diary video should not be taken as historical fact. It has a smaller and less powerful engine, a smaller and less efficient propeller, and the airscrew turns the opposite direction from the original. Edited October 25, 2016 by BorysVorobyov 1
Voidhunger Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 True i have no problem to take off with mig but i once tried to land and crashed.
Voidhunger Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 I can land but at very low speed. Im trying it now and landing its not a big deal too. You have to land slowly, but the plane is more jumpy than before
LLv24_Zami Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 I tried few flights with MiG at weekend. IMO take off was about the same as before. I just push full throttle, careful movements with rudder, tail up at 100+ kph and so it goes. Landing felt much more different, made donuts couple of times. My pedals broke so I use twist on joystick. Maybe it's easier that way.
Brano Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 I tried the MiG yesterday. Take off is not an issue for me. The tendency to swing the nose is compensated by short tapping on the rudder. I dont use forsazh,just normal regime for take off. What I find more tricky now is landing with full flaps. Quite a bouncing if I dont get the speed below 150km/h but if at 140,I allready face stall conditions. Will try to do some more landings with only half the flaps deployed (25°) . I also noticed that when I touch down,it is not wise to use wheel breaks untill the plane slows down .And its also good to keep some RPMs to keep the airflow at rudder.In pilot manual I found yesterday it is recommended to land at ~400 rpm which is in technochat smtg like 35% of throttle. But it is for I-200/MiG-1 model. Pokryshkin also mentioned in his memoires that he used roughly 1/3 of throttle when landing, comparing to almost idling of Tchaika engine he flew before,which gave him more stable performance on landing and also more security to throttle up if he overshoot the runway.
Avatar13 Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 Hmmm, just started reading this thread and am now intrigued to try her out!
von_Tom Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 Still the same for me, I just can't do it Doesn't matter how careful my movements are. Still the same result, every single time. Check your controls in case something screwy is going on. Maybe try disabling the brakes until you can take off. Double-check for duplicate controls etc. Put full up trim. You can do it! Von Tom
216th_Jordan Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 I've tried it all several times over. Every setting of trim. Every amount of throttle, applied fast and slow. Keeping the tail up or down or not touching the stick at all. Going easy on the pedals, going fast on the pedals. Nothing helps. If it wasn't for the fact, that this happens only with the MiG I'd be looking for a controller issue. In fact I have been doing that as well. Everything works as it should. As I said: Even if it turns out, that I'm just a horrible pilot and I at some point get to a succesful take off, I'll maintain, that there's something wrong with this way of modeling, at least as I've experienced it. It may be a stupid question, but did you check your wind settings?
Brano Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 I have my rudder axis set to be a little less responsive around center to do the small adjustments smoother. No trim needed on rudder for me to take off successfully. I did some tracks yesterday but I'm afraid I won't be able to do video this evening. Drinking session in my calendar scheduled :D
Avatar13 Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 (edited) Make sure your safety belts are buckled. Yes, sir! EDIT: Okay, I didn't finish reading the thread (at work and also wanted to just try it out myself first) and just went to grab some lunch and thought I'd give it a quick go (I work from home...). Wow, just like people were saying with the few posts I've read. Tried to go gently down the runway (started off parked in the grass facing away from the airfield) and quickly did a loop with full throttle as I got about 1/3 of the way down it. I was able to control it enough where I didn't get any damage and was able to taxi back to my starting position. Okay, let's try this again... Slowly start increasing the throttle, am about half way down when I reach full throttle, things are looking good and I'm thinking to myself, "this isn't as hard as some were saying" and then just before I thought I'd get the tail up and start to be able to rotate, a nice 360 ensues and damages my plane beyond repair... Okay, time to read the rest of the thread and find those gemful (it's my own word, don't bother to look it up) tips that might actually help me get this sucker off the ground! Seat belts indeed!! EDIT#2: Okay, I just tried a couple of more times after reading a few more posts on the first page. Tried to emulate what I read and repeated the same thing. Got about half way down the runway and looped... Thought I did everything as described but alas... Feeling a little pissed off and frustrated that this is harder than I think it should be, I had spun around to face the opposite direction and just said "screw it!" and floored the throttle and just went for it. I actually was able to take off! I then tried a gentle right hand turn and heard something rip off. Went into outside view and saw my left tail wing and elevator had ripped off from ground loop damage... Undeterred I pressed on to find a ground target to shoot my rackets at. Found a lone car and blew it up. Then went to see if I could land. Managed to land in one piece but of course looped it on the runway before coming to a rest... I hope I'll be having better than a 25% success rate for taking off otherwise this plane may not be chosen for a campaign career... Back to work! Edited October 25, 2016 by Avatar13 2
KpaxBos Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 (edited) Humble contribution. Had same problems as Finkeren. Tried this and OK (97% success) : Trim pitch +20% (around) Trim Yaw : -31% Rudder left (pedal 80%) Throttle slow moving Correct course with pedal and throttle Good Luck. I can fly but I landing in one piece is another story . Edited November 1, 2016 by KpaxBos
LoneStar_47 Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 They are having the same discussion in the 2.004 thread on the Russian forum. Only they have more trouble with landing than taking off. Han has been pretty involved in the discussion giving tips and instructions. I remember people having the same problems when the MiG-3 was first introduced. There is definitely a two-phase takeoff procedure in regard to rudder application before and after the tail lifts off. The major engine torque combined with strange tail wheel lock mechanism can make it tricky but it's quite do-able. Could provide a link to the Russian forum discussion. I could not find.
LoneStar_47 Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 Humble contribution. Had same problems as Finkeren. Tried this and OK (97% success) : Trim pitch +20% (around) Trim Yaw : -31% Rudder left (pedal 80%) Throttle slow moving Correct course with pedal and throttle Good Luck. I can fly but I landing in one piece is another story https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing If it helps.... Your video shows taking off from a concrete runway. Concrete is the easiest due to less ground friction. Grass (BoM map) is next easiest. Try BoS map dirt airstrip. Once you master the dirt airstrip the others are no problem.
pokrovski80 Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 (edited) Could provide a link to the Russian forum discussion. I could not find. Theres no special thread about taleoff/landing issues in russian. We're discussing it in the 200.4 update thread. Many videos of MiG's landing are there too. http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/5002-obsuzhdenie-versii-2004-novye-fichi-i-uluchsheniya/ Welcome! It starts from page 8 http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/5002-obsuzhdenie-versii-2004-novye-fichi-i-uluchsheniya/page-8 Edited October 25, 2016 by pokrovski80
LoneStar_47 Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 Theres no special thread about taleoff/landing issues in russian. We're discussing it in the 200.4 update thread. Many videos of MiG's landing are there too. http://forum.il2stur...i-uluchsheniya/ Welcome! It starts from page 8 http://forum.il2stur...hsheniya/page-8 Thank You!
Sunde Posted October 25, 2016 Posted October 25, 2016 What? I have no issues taking off in the MIG, are you guys going off the runway without noticing? Seems strange that some people experience loops, whilst others do not...
Avatar13 Posted October 26, 2016 Posted October 26, 2016 Boy, I tried this plane some more. My first two tries were not an issue taking off. Did the old technique of slamming the throttle forward and steering with the rudder. Feeling all full of myself I tried a couple more times doing what felt was the exact same thing and looped both times... I've only been trying to take off from dirt runways, btw. I also find it humorous that some have no issues taking off but find landing being the problem. I've landed on the same dirt runways without a problem, other than a loop at some point down the runway if I've forgotten to concentrate on that aspect while landing... I do like firing the rockets at ships and things though. Will try keeping the tail down as long as possible as once it's up that's where I'm having the loop issue.
ACG_KaiLae Posted October 26, 2016 Posted October 26, 2016 (edited) Other than a nasty tendency to drop the right wing during landing, I don't have problems landing it (note - I land with 50% flaps). Curious to know what others are having issues with. Edited October 26, 2016 by Kai_Lae 1
Finkeren Posted October 26, 2016 Posted October 26, 2016 There! I FINALLY got it. After 200+ tries, I think I cracked it. A can sorta get safely off the ground 2 out of 3 times now. Turns out, the problem for me was, that I was actually keeping the plane too straight with constant small corrections, so when that big swing to the left came along, I couldn't counter it. I found it better to just allow for a very slight drift to the right initially to be able to catch the left swing, which requires a big correction in rudder input very fast, small increments just doesn't do it. You cannot allow the left swing to even start, you have to start counter it as soon as the drift to the right stops. If the left swing goes on for even 1/4 of a second, the ground loop is inevitable. It's all kinda more manageable from a concrete runway, but I trained it on a dirt strip, because I wanted to be able to do it properly under the conditions most commonly experienced by VVS pilots. I still maintain, that there's something wrong here. There is no way any plane, not even the MiG was that sensitive to even the slightest pilot error during takeoff. A change is still needed. Now to learn how to land this thing. So far, I've broken my landing gear 3 times, bent my prop once and landed safely (if not exactly elegantly) once. I actually don't mind that as much. It feels like it's mainly due to the MiG handling like a morbidly obese jellyfish with cerebral palsy in a low speed-gear down situation, which matches what I've read about the MiG fairly well. 3
Brano Posted October 26, 2016 Posted October 26, 2016 Or like myself two days ago.I managed to perfectly align my MiG with landing strip,got the speed and everything else right,only to finish my landing with nose down and bent prop. I forgot to deploy landing gear. Such a detail :D 1
Avatar13 Posted October 26, 2016 Posted October 26, 2016 There! I FINALLY got it. After 200+ tries, I think I cracked it. A can sorta get safely off the ground 2 out of 3 times now. Congrats! ... I still maintain, that there's something wrong here. There is no way any plane, not even the MiG was that sensitive to even the slightest pilot error during takeoff. A change is still needed... I have to agree. It seems like too many pilots and planes would be injured if the plane were truly this hard to just take off in... Or like myself two days ago.I managed to perfectly align my MiG with landing strip,got the speed and everything else right,only to finish my landing with nose down and bent prop. I forgot to deploy landing gear. Such a detail :D LOL I can totally relate to that one!
Brano Posted October 26, 2016 Posted October 26, 2016 Here is the link to the post from Danil. There is also zip file attached of him doing the take off and landings. So you can check in the game. Btw he set quite violent wind conditions :D http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/5002-obsuzhdenie-versii-2004-novye-fichi-i-uluchsheniya/page-9?do=findComment&comment=462230
ECV56_Necathor Posted October 26, 2016 Posted October 26, 2016 I have troubles, specially taking off, almost a dream. For my point of view there is something wrong with the new FM on 2.004. There is no possibility that you fail more than a 60% of times trying to take off or landing.
Finkeren Posted October 26, 2016 Posted October 26, 2016 I have troubles, specially taking off, almost a dream. For my point of view there is something wrong with the new FM on 2.004. There is no possibility that you fail more than a 60% of times trying to take off or landing. Again: It's got nothing to do with FM. The FM of the MiG is exactly the same. It's the new ground physics that have hit the MiG in a very bad, and IMHO unrealistic, way.
FuriousMeow Posted October 26, 2016 Posted October 26, 2016 and IMHO unrealistic, way. I dunno, I don't think so. My first few attempts resulted in a ground loop but after that I was in the air and landing no problem. Takeoff was the hardest thing: if you lost concentration the MiG-3 would spin around.
Cathaoir Posted October 26, 2016 Posted October 26, 2016 Well I have been very sporadic taking off until today.....I have taken the different Information and I have finally got a system that works for me 6 out of 10 times right now. I took what Finkeren found out and adapted it to how I fly...not very well but now for me I can do it consistently.....What I am now doing is based on what Fikeren found out....I am using +30 pitch..-40 yaw...about 83% throttle at the start, but unlike Finkeren I am going left at the start. Another thing I found out that was probably my biggest problem.....I misunderstood when those trying to help said not to use the right rudder....well I left my foot off of it completely... Now I am using it by keeping pressure on it to keep the left rudder more stable. Big learning curve but little things like that make a big difference. For those still having trouble there is some great info here....Some as stated may work or like me I took pieces and found a way to make it work....again thanks to all....
Finkeren Posted October 26, 2016 Posted October 26, 2016 I dunno, I don't think so. My first few attempts resulted in a ground loop but after that I was in the air and landing no problem. Takeoff was the hardest thing: if you lost concentration the MiG-3 would spin around. We're clearly not experiencing the same thing. It's very strange, because there seems to be a divide between people who ground loop a couple of times and then get used to it and have little trouble from then on, and then people like me, who now find the MiG very nearly impossible to take off in. Again: 200 attempts before I kinda mastered it. I'm certainly not the best pilot, but I'm not that awful, and I can take off in all other aircraft without trouble (except the Ju 88, but that's a different issue)
von_Tom Posted October 26, 2016 Posted October 26, 2016 (edited) General comment aimed at nobody in particular. There is a difference between using right rudder and using LESS left rudder to correct a yaw to the left. I do get to neutral rudder when the tail is up and just prior to lift off. Von Tom Edited October 26, 2016 by von_Tom 1
6./ZG26_5tuka Posted October 26, 2016 Posted October 26, 2016 Tried it 3 times in row now with no ground looping in the end (2 crappy landings and 1 nice 2-pointer). I only tabbed the brakes when rolling out and made sure I only use brakes when rudder is straightened so both wheels get equal braking force. It's a bit of a fiddle to keep it straight but not impossible, it certainly requires training. I've found Branos advise to hold 400 RPM usefull for final approach as it will give you a nicely shallow descent but I preferr cutting throttle on ground because it streches the landing distance significantly.
pokrovski80 Posted October 26, 2016 Posted October 26, 2016 I have troubles, specially taking off, almost a dream. For my point of view there is something wrong with the new FM on 2.004. There is no possibility that you fail more than a 60% of times trying to take off or landing. Well...I have absolutely no problems with taking off( after 3 days training of course))) but it is still a huge problem for me to land the MiG.)) Made 300 trys or more and didn't managed to land it succesfully without crushing the craft... OK, one or two times maybe)) Think i should better leave it, useless waste of time)
NN_Elanion Posted October 26, 2016 Posted October 26, 2016 (edited) Pull the handle (joystick) toward you to lock the tail wheel during the end of your landing (ground phase). Edited October 26, 2016 by NN_Elanion
303_Kwiatek Posted October 26, 2016 Posted October 26, 2016 If all russian pilots in ww2 got such problems with taking off most mig3s would be wiped out only during flight traning 3
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