MiG-3 tailwheel and takeoff in 2.004

[216th_Cat 1052]

Hi all. Since the 2.004 patch I am having a devil of a time keeping the MiG-3 straight on the runway. Even small inputs on the rudder career it all over the place. I've noticed a new technochat notice coming up that appears to indicate that this plane now has a lockable tailwheel (mentioned in the patch notes) and that it's controlled by the rudder pedals. I don't know whether it's locked or not any one time. Anyone got any ideas before I have to begin testing?

Cheers.

 

Edited because I wrote LaGG instead of MiG. DOH!

Edited October 20, 2016 by 216th_Cat

[Brano 1469]

47. Additional technochat message added to MiG-3 and P-40 telling about tail wheel locking and unlocking caused by pedals position;

 

Not an expert on P-40 but MiG-3 had rudder pedals interconnecting with tail wheel = if you pushed rudder to whatever side,tailwheel turned accordingly. If rudder was centered (with tolerance of +/-10°) tailwheel was locked. When rudder was pushed over 10°, tailwheel became unlocked and steerable.

AFAIK LaGG-3 had free castoring tailwheel (probably also with centering spring but Im not sure,dont have technical description of the plane at hand)

Edited October 20, 2016 by Brano

[andyw248 142]

The key for good takeoffs in the MiG-3 is the mixture lever. It is supposed to be in the half position for takeoff.

[Finkeren 6032]

Simple solution: Trim your rudder for takeoff. That way you hardly have to touch the pedals and run less risk of accidentally turning the tailwheel.

[Cathaoir 150]

Well I have been trying for 3 hrs to take off in the Mig.....Everything looks good then I circle every time about half way down the runway....It took me a long time to be able to take off in this plane now....I like it but if I can no longer take off.....no fun.....I have tried trim left right up down now difference I still spin out....Slow throttle fast ...different attempts all with the same result.....I am by no means a good pilot....I would say maybe serviceable.....But a plane I was able to take off with 90+% of the time and now is 0%...well I guess I need help ...As a side note I have tried all the other planes that I play and have had now problems.

[216th_Cat 1052]

Well I have been trying for 3 hrs to take off in the Mig.....Everything looks good then I circle every time about half way down the runway....It took me a long time to be able to take off in this plane now....I like it but if I can no longer take off.....no fun.....I have tried trim left right up down now difference I still spin out....Slow throttle fast ...different attempts all with the same result.....I am by no means a good pilot....I would say maybe serviceable.....But a plane I was able to take off with 90+% of the time and now is 0%...well I guess I need help ...As a side note I have tried all the other planes that I play and have had now problems.

 

Exactly what happens to me. The tendency for it to ground loop at high speed is very alarming. I am just managing to get control of it once again (get off the ground about once in every ten attempts!) but it's very, very twitchy.

The patch has definitely changed something here - never had these problems before it. Thanks for your replies though chaps.

Cheers.

[Brano 1469]

Didnt try the MiG myself yet. But it is obvious that when you have tail wheel steerable in connection with rudder movements it will cause trouble during take off. When tailwheel is still in contact with ground and you are allready moving fast forward,any movement of rudder will also move the tailwheel ending in violent change of your plane trajectory.

[E4GLEyE 79]

Before the patch i remember when first flying the Mig i always had this... my first straight takeoff was on WoL and ended in a fireball as I did not see the incoming Pe2 ... on a serious note tho: yesterday on one of the campaigns it took me yet again 3-4 tries to finally take off in her, she is twitchy but can be managed... twist stick is a bit of a troublemaker as i push the nose down and dont want to look down for the coin i usually loose direction and she starts to spin around at that moment... Guessing that we just have to get used to it this way  

[Matt 1017]

Easiest way to take off now, is to give enough left rudder so that you steer the tail wheel a bit (the techno chat message helps, because it will indicate when you begin steering the wheel). Then give full throttle, wait a bit to see which direction you're heading and ease off the rudder if you're going to much left, but don't move the rudder back to center position and never ever give right rudder input. Ground loops happen when you give right rudder input or switch too quickly between left rudder (=steering the tail wheel left) and center position (=having tail wheel locked in center position).

[Finkeren 6032]

Easiest way to take off now, is to give enough left rudder so that you steer the tail wheel a bit (the techno chat message helps, because it will indicate when you begin steering the wheel). Then give full throttle, wait a bit to see which direction you're heading and ease off the rudder if you're going to much left, but don't move the rudder back to center position and never ever give right rudder input. Ground loops happen when you give right rudder input or switch too quickly between left rudder (=steering the tail wheel left) and center position (=having tail wheel locked in center position).

That has actually become standard for me when taking off in several of the aircraft: apply a good deal of rudder right from the get-go and then ease off as speed increases and rudder gains authority instead of first applying more rudder, then less. I find it leads to less over-steering, particularly with the less directionally stable planes like the I-16.

[Cathaoir 150]

Sorry tried all of your suggestions and searched  the forum and still no joy.....after about 100 tries and about 10 take offs...sorry something chanced.....I never had a problem getting the MiG to the runway....now why bother It is not flyable for me any more....yes in pwsg I can have the AI take off but that is not what I want.....something changed and not being a very gook pilot I noticed......I don't know maybe my settings...joystick...X-52...I don't know all I know is the plane for me is now not flyable....what good is getting to the runway and not being able to take-off. please If anyone can help me out I would greatly appreciate it.....thanks

[Finkeren 6032]

Sorry tried all of your suggestions and searched the forum and still no joy.....after about 100 tries and about 10 take offs...sorry something chanced.....I never had a problem getting the MiG to the runway....now why bother It is not flyable for me any more....yes in pwsg I can have the AI take off but that is not what I want.....something changed and not being a very gook pilot I noticed......I don't know maybe my settings...joystick...X-52...I don't know all I know is the plane for me is now not flyable....what good is getting to the runway and not being able to take-off. please If anyone can help me out I would greatly appreciate it.....thanks

I'll have to do some more flying in 2.004 to give any specific guidance, but honestly: If you have 10 succesful takeoffs out of 100 that should tell you, that the situation isn't hopeless. Youjust need to find out, what made the difference those 10 times.

[216th_Jordan 1283]

Can you record a track and upload it for analysis?

[Plurp 91]

I mostly fly twins, stuka, il2, but I like to test, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

Flaps 30%

No Boost

pitch trim to +20

left rudder to -40

left rudder applied to get tail wheel controlled in techno

gradually apply throttle to full

once tail wheel starts thinking about coming up (I let it come up by itself) get ready for less left rudder as nose will swing right

at 200 start rotating with elevator and right aileron input

 

On Stalingrad, autumn, 60% fuel

Edited October 22, 2016 by Beedo

[Cathaoir 150]

Well gave it another go still no luck....Made some tracks but how to I upload therm?  Have been at this for 3 days and have not really played the game...just trying to takeoff in the MiG.....maybe I need to put it in the hanger for a while and come back to it later since this is now consuming all of my flight time.  I don't have any real problems with the other planes that I play.  Thanks to all for your help but this issue is starting to take away from my enjoyment of the game.  Back to the Il2, LaGG,, La5, 109...etc.   Again thanks to all for your efforts to help me.

[216th_Jordan 1283]

Sharing tracks is almost easiest with dropbox, just share the link after you put the file in a dropbox folder (right click on the files).

 

The tracks themselves always come as two files with the same Name:

 

A .trk file and a Folder. Make sure to put both in a new folder and zip it. How you share it is up to you then.

 

[Shepherd 3]

From my point of view it was never an easy task handling the Mig but since 2.004 it even seems harder than before.

It seems to me, landing is much more complicated now. I always get catapulted back in the air, independently how soft my wheels touched the ground.

Any experience or hints from your side?

[216th_Jordan 1283]

I normally land with full flaps but landing is tricky in that bird. What is a problem in this sim is lateral stability, plus the aircraft likes to oscillate around its yaw axis and that will often cause it to spin out of controll (mostly when tailwheel is off the ground).

 

What I do when I start the MiG: Increase throttle slowly, keep the rudder movements as little as possible (do it as Finkeren said), its is also important not to try to overcompensate any of the planes movements.

On Landing you want to get the MiG down in 2 point landing, it likes to jump so you need to touch the ground at a low vertical speed (and below 160kph), keep your stick mostly in the position until she is down (only if she jumps too high), don't apply brakes until rather slow. I have pitch trimmer set to 100% on Landing, which helps.

 

All in all, Mig-3 was a beast to land and start even back in the day, but I guess that lateral instability increases this even more in the sim. Hopefully there can be a fix for this someday.

Edited October 22, 2016 by 216th_Jordan

[von_Tom 429]

 

Check your settings because if there is a control you only use in the Mig, or you have only tried the Mig since the patch, your controls may have been messed about. I had to remap most controls and my brakes reversed etc so maybe that has something to do with it.

 

Von Tom

[LLv24_Zami 1170]

Check your settings because if there is a control you only use in the Mig, or you

have only tried the Mig since the patch, your controls may have been messed about. I had to remap most controls and

my brakes reversed etc so maybe that

has something to do with it.

 

Von Tom

That's right, it has something to do with new control ID system. I had to correct some settings too after update.

[ACG_KaiLae 272]

Ok, so after reading this, I went and tried it myself. 

 

Hello, ground loop. Well this is now harder...

 

However, I found out how to get it off the ground reliably, after some experimentation. Key 1 - never apply right rudder, like said above. Give a good amount of left rudder, and increase throttle right off the bat to about 60%. Adjust rudder as necessary to keep straight, always inputting left rudder. Now what will tend to happen is the plane will start swinging left anyway. At this point, increase power. Basically, you use the throttle as right rudder, because the engine will bring the aircraft right. Also, don't suddenly increase power because this will snap the nose right and you'll probably lose it. Just feed it up slowly to counteract whatever tendency that you have to go left. Eventually the tail will come up and you can lift off shortly thereafter. 

 

I would however suggest that you not take off at the same time as another plane to your left or right, as you do tend to swing left and right while running down the runway, so your path can be somewhat erratic. 

[Finkeren 6032]

It occurred to me, that I actually hadn't taken off in the MiG-3 after the update. I had flown a couple of missions, but those were airstarts. 

 

I can't take off in it either. 50+ attempts so far and no luck.

 

I'm beginning to think something is wrong. It seems the force of the yaw to the left is increasing as the tailwheel leaves the ground, leading to the violent left swing, rather than decreasing as it should, when the turned tailwheel is no longer forcing a left turn. 

[BlitzPig_EL 2817]

Any one emailed support yet about this?  Also I had the same trouble with the E7 last night online, half way down the runway and, whoopsie, ground loop. That aircraft was never an issue for me in the past.

Edited October 22, 2016 by BlitzPig_EL

[Cathaoir 150]

Thank you Finkeren I was starting  to think it was just me.... ...here is a link to my last attempts....https://www.dropbox.com/sh/s7iwz0vfvc1lsfv/AABw4dSmsnKgJlOxa1lMpYWGa?dl=0      sorry first attempt at dropbox....If it does not work let me know...thanks

[216th_Xenos 57]

Have the tail wheel locked on takeoff, never had any problems.

[Finkeren 6032]

Any one emailed support yet about this?  Also I had the same trouble with the E7 last night online, half way down the runway and, whoopsie, ground loop. That aircraft was never an issue for me in the past.

 

Negative. I just tested take off in every single-engined fighter in the sim, they all take off straight as a razor (well, some more razor-straight than others) Only the MiG-3 has this strange behavior.

 

Even the P-40, which supposedly has a somewhat similar tailwheel locking system was no problem as long as you don't slam the throttle forward.

[Cathaoir 150]

Ok....how do I now lock the tail wheel....the only time I see it is when I am starting to Loop...like I said earlier I am not that good of a sim pilot but having been able to take off before this update.... just does not seem right....if it was this way in real real life fine but then  I feel sorry for the real  Mig pilots....Would have preferred to have spent the time on the correct FM...sorry to sound frustrated but a FM change should have been out front....then pilots like me would have had a heads up to change....Just me rambling but I have invested a lot of money getting in to this and it is frustrating to no longer be able to fly a plane I was once able to.

[Finkeren 6032]

Have the tail wheel locked on takeoff, never had any problems.

 

The tailwheel on the MiG-3 can't be locked manually. It is controlled by the rudder pedals and is locked by a spring-loaded mechanism. When the rudder pedals are in a close-to-neutral position, the tailwheel is locked, but once you move the pedals beyond a certain point left or right, the mechanism unlocks and the wheel starts turning with the rudder. A great system for taxiing, absolutely bonkers for take off and landing, but that's how they made it.

 

That means, that if you want to apply left rudder during takeoff, which you absolutely have to do. There's no way to avoid having the tailwheel also turn left during the takeoff, this created some problems especially during takeoff before 2.004, but nothing like this.

[216th_Xenos 57]

The tailwheel on the MiG-3 can't be locked manually. It is controlled by the rudder pedals and is locked by a spring-loaded mechanism. When the rudder pedals are in a close-to-neutral position, the tailwheel is locked, but once you move the pedals beyond a certain point left or right, the mechanism unlocks and the wheel starts turning with the rudder. A great system for taxiing, absolutely bonkers for take off and landing, but that's how they made it.

 

That means, that if you want to apply left rudder during takeoff, which you absolutely have to do. There's no way to avoid having the tailwheel also turn left during the takeoff, this created some problems especially during takeoff before 2.004, but nothing like this.

Ah ok my bad, assumed it could be locked since the message keeps popping up.

[Finkeren 6032]

Ok....how do I now lock the tail wheel....the only time I see it is when I am starting to Loop...like I said earlier I am not that good of a sim pilot but having been able to take off before this update.... just does not seem right....if it was this way in real real life fine but then  I feel sorry for the real  Mig pilots....Would have preferred to have spent the time on the correct FM...sorry to sound frustrated but a FM change should have been out front....then pilots like me would have had a heads up to change....Just me rambling but I have invested a lot of money getting in to this and it is frustrating to no longer be able to fly a plane I was once able to.

 

This is definitely not an FM change. As I said, I've flown the MiG several times after the update (just hadn't taken off in it) and the FM is the same.

 

This is most likely a (probably unintentional) side effect of the new ground physics system, and if I were to take a wild guess, I'd say it has something to do with the MiGs unique tailwheel-locking mechanism.   

[Cathaoir 150]

True...I have played PWCG after the update and got frustrated and had the AI take off...so yes in the air it seems the same...It is just getting into the air that is my problem.  Thank you for doing some tests to let me know I am not crazy....

[Finkeren 6032]

Whatever it is, it should be reported as a bug, and if it's intentional, then it's a mistake and needs to be changed. 

 

I get that the MiG-3 shouldn't be a cakewalk to handle during takeoff and landing (it wasn't before 2.004 either) but no aircraft that performed like this during take off would ever be allowed off the ground again. 

True...I have played PWCG after the update and got frustrated and had the AI take off...so yes in the air it seems the same...It is just getting into the air that is my problem.  Thank you for doing some tests to let me know I am not crazy....

 

Will you be filing the report to support?

[Cathaoir 150]

And I really want to thank Cat for bringing this topic up because I probably would not have. Would have thought just a noob complaining because he can not fly...But as I have found out there is a lot of support from the veterans....that is why I believe that new people just starting out can get the support they need..thank you all for trying to help.....S!

[Cathaoir 150]

How do I file a report to support?

[216th_Cat 1052]

And I really want to thank Cat for bringing this topic up because I probably would not have.

 

I'm glad I did - I needed the answers too. Also glad that it's not just us! I've just invested in a new HOTAS and pedals; with the MiG I had started to wonder if they were too sensitive compared to the old ones.

I've never sent a report in to support either but I'll try and do it as well - the squeaky wheel gets the grease!

Cheers.

[BlitzPig_EL 2817]

I just took off in both the P 40 and the MiG 3, I had no trouble.

 

[Cathaoir 150]

Support ticket submitted...

[Bullets 452]

I just took off in both the P 40 and the MiG 3, I had no trouble.

 

 

Same, if you understand how the tail wheel mechanism works its easy 

[von_Tom 429]

Ok just tried this and I was ok too.  What I did (correct or not) was:

 

Rads fully open

Mixture fully rich

Prop pitch at 100%

Slight up trim

 

Full throttle blast off

I started with almost full left rudder (as this was needed to keep it straight during taxiing)

As the speed increased I reduced rudder

When the tail came up I was thankful of the little bit of up trim or the prop might have struck - the tail came up abruptly

When the tail was up TINY movements on the rudder and counter-acting what I'd done almost straight away to avoid over correction

At 190km/h I very carefully lifted off

 

I must say that I really didn't like the takeoff run as the thing felt slow and like at any second it would break away from me.  When I got off the deck it was very much a straight ahead and a slight climb - it really felt like it needed care at slow speeds.

 

Save for the prop rotation altering rudder left or right, this pretty much what I do for all aircraft though the LaGG, Yak and 109s allow rough movements after takeoff.

 

My inclination is that the thing is a heavy, sluggish and tricky beast and if you're not careful you've had it.  This reflects what I've read about it.

 

von Tom

[Finkeren 6032]

Ok just tried this and I was ok too.  What I did (correct or not) was:

 

Rads fully open

Mixture fully rich

Prop pitch at 100%

Slight up trim

 

Full throttle blast off

I started with almost full left rudder (as this was needed to keep it straight during taxiing)

As the speed increased I reduced rudder

When the tail came up I was thankful of the little bit of up trim or the prop might have struck - the tail came up abruptly

When the tail was up TINY movements on the rudder and counter-acting what I'd done almost straight away to avoid over correction

At 190km/h I very carefully lifted off

 

I must say that I really didn't like the takeoff run as the thing felt slow and like at any second it would break away from me.  When I got off the deck it was very much a straight ahead and a slight climb - it really felt like it needed care at slow speeds.

 

Save for the prop rotation altering rudder left or right, this pretty much what I do for all aircraft though the LaGG, Yak and 109s allow rough movements after takeoff.

 

My inclination is that the thing is a heavy, sluggish and tricky beast and if you're not careful you've had it.  This reflects what I've read about it.

 

von Tom

 

Strange. This sounds almost exactly like what the MiG was like at take off prior to 2.004 - apart from the slamming the throttle open part. I always found it best to ease the throttle open.

 

However, this is simply not what I'm experiencing in the sim right now. When I start the take off in the MiG it starts out perfectly normal, albeit with a severe tendency to pull to the right, as it should be. Keeping the plane steady with the rudder, gradually releasing pressure as the rudder gains authority. Then around 70 - 90 km/h the plane suddenly starts swinging very violently to the left (can't pinpoint it exactly at what speed, but it seems to happen around the point where the tail would start to lift on its own, but it happens even if I force the tail down) If you don't immediately counter, the result is an abrupt ground loop to the left, if you counter too much, it's a ground loop to the right and if you're lucky enough to counter just enough at the right moment, the plane skids violently left and your landing gear collapses. this happens every single time without fail, regardless what trim settings I use, if I open the throttle fast or slow (even tried to take off with as little power as possible - same result) or whether I keep the tail down of try to force it up.

 

There's definitely something wrong here, and it can't be a controller issue, because every other plane takes off with little trouble (or big trouble in case of the Fw 190 and the Ju 88, but those have always been my nemesises)

Edited October 22, 2016 by Finkeren