Jump to content
Mmaruda

I don't like the AI

Recommended Posts

No, it's always going to suck. The complexity of the decisions needed is too much for a $2000 PC which is already being pushed pretty hard. The best they can probably do is make it a little less sucky. Have fun with that...

 

Yep, but nope. Not buying the "always going to suck" pronouncement on the capability of sophisticated AI from some random Joe Blow of the internet. Thanks, anyway. 

To the OP, sorry for contributing to the derailment of this thread.

 

To the moderator, feel free to prune the past 5000 words of hot vain-glorious air if you see fit.

 

To everyone else, please, if you see fit, carry on this conversation on how the AI may be usefully improved.

Edited by Bearfoot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you haven't checked out the IL2 4.12 AI of the original game, I think you should. After years of tweaking, I think TD has come up with a fairly credible AI. It's not perfect and never will be or can be. The low and slow dogfight with the AI is much more challenging than it was in years past.*   I don't really know about their high speed/high alt performance. I'm not implying that any of that is applicable to this series, but it is an example of how it could be improved.

 

*It had been very easy to get the AI into a low looping fight and force them into crashing into the ground. Imagine my chagrin after a 5 min dogfight to have the AI crash me into the ground. Maybe I just suck, but I was actually feeling like I should give my AI opponent an ~S~.

 

Cloyd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We've just finished a squadron coop. 14 human pilots against a variety of AI. These were 190s, 109Gs, 110s, Ju52s. The humans were in Pe-2s (attacking an airfield) and P-40s (providing escort - although it felt like the Pe-2s were escorting the P-40s). 

 

The AI was fine. Mostly pretty believable. Some of the 110s were a bit flip-floppy low and slow - it seemed obvious the AI was having trouble handling the 110 like this. A 190 "jumped" its mission logic - it had been ordered to break off and return to base after 10 minutes, but it broke off, gushing smoke, but then came back. Maybe it was just coming back to the nearest airfield (an enemy one!), but it was strange and illogical.

 

Apart from this, I thought the AI was actually rather good. AI aircraft gunned their engines to climb to advantage, maneuvered well, and missed a lot when firing in convincing fashion (there was a variety of AI levels in the mission - from "high" to "normal" and erm - "average" - or whatever the less than normal level is called). 

 

As many others have said, there's always room for improvement, but often the AI is pretty good. Several times, for instance, I've been fooled by AI apparently spinning in, only for them to recover low down and run for it. Again, as others have said, if you want a "historically-based" or even "narrative-based" (i.e. the mission tells a good story), co-op vs. AI is the way to go. The mission builder controls everything (sort of - best-laid-plans/contact-with-enemy/etc...) and the AI does as it's told (usually).

 

Anyway, great fun tonight, lads (he says, addressing his TP comrades). Many thanks. And many thanks to the AI! Always room for improvement. I remember reading about how the modder who designed the Rowans BoB II AI talking about how he went about things - faking human reactions, basically - and it was fascinating. I'd love for him to lead a BoS AI make-over... But having said that the AI we've got now is usually (not always, but usually) fit for purpose.

Edited by No601_Swallow
  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ha !!!

 

If you are not the only human in the sky, then the AI acts normally.

So there's most probably a Kill Human Biased Behavior issue in SP ! :biggrin:

 

I knew it :ph34r: 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To everyone else, please, if you see fit, carry on this conversation on how the AI may be usefully improved.

 

Good idea.

 

The problem is that every branch in their combat logic gives them a "make an aggressive turn in x direction" command which only works well under certain conditions (ie, against a pilot/aircraft who is incapable of making aggressive turns). There needs to be "defend", "separate", climb" "dive", " do a barrel roll" and "run away!" for the AI to be more capable of flying aircraft that can't turn. Pursuit logic also seems to be very heavy-handedly in favour of lead pursuit at all times. td;dr, more balance is needed  between aggressive and defensive maneuvers. The AI are very good at impersonating a stupid, overly aggressive person (like your typical rookie air-quaker) which, in terms of AI quality in a historical context, is actually astoundingly good considering the complexity of the FM that they have to manage is 100% the same as the one the player flies.

 

While making the AI fly with a full complexity FM idea is a very great and ambitious goal to pursue I believe that it is just a bit too ambitious and resource greedy to be practical and, IMO, it's the primary problem holding back the SP/Co-op play in this sim (and in RoF) from being a lot more fun. However, going back from this position and introducing some scripting or simplification would be a very tough call to make from a design standpoint and I don't blame the dev team for sticking to their guns since what they have made is not much better or worse overall than the AI in any other game in the grand scheme of things. The only stand-out good combat logic AI I've seen recently is v4.12.2 HSFX 7.0 expert mode in Il-2 1946 and that borders on too hard!

 

I can't really see anything changing any time soon but if changes are going to be made to accommodate the goal of having more AI in a mission (as has been suggested) then I won't be sad to see the AI getting a simplified or "optimised" flight model of their own because it really does seem to be the best solution, provided it doesn't give them magical performance.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This situation is recreated all the time online.

BSR, have you ever actually played multiplayer?

 

I've only ever seen one formation, and it was me and a friend I had voice contact with.

 

The rest of the time, it's nothing but lone aircraft behaving extremely unrealistically. How many IL-2s were shot down by anti-tank Stukas behaving like fighter aircraft in the autumn of 1942? None, but it happened to me and my friend in multiplayer.

 

Also, recently, while flying as the Soviets, I haven't seen a single Bf-109... which is strange, considering that the Luftwaffe was slaughtering the VVS in the autumn of 1942.

 

Meanwhile, while playing a PWCG career, all aircraft were in formation, the Luftwaffe actually existed, the ground attack aircraft attacked the ground, and the fighters attacked other aircraft.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BSR, have you ever actually played multiplayer?

Several times a week. Often in formation with a good friend. Regularly meeting other people in formation, seeing contrails of people above me in formation, or getting bounced by wingmen who should have been in closer formation so I could have seen them both earlier.

 

[Edited]

Edited by Bearcat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BSR, have you ever actually played multiplayer?

I've only ever seen one formation, and it was me and a friend I had voice contact with.

The rest of the time, it's nothing but lone aircraft behaving extremely unrealistically.

[Edited]

Edited by Bearcat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Several times a week. Often in formation with a good friend. Regularly meeting other people in formation, seeing contrails of people above me in formation, or getting bounced by wingmen who should have been in closer formation so I could have seen them both earlier.

Next time you consider asking an idiotic question like that, check the stats on the MP servers first.

I just checked the WoL stats. You have flown 6 sorties this month. Maybe you should fly MP more often before you pretend that you know what you're talking about.

First off, thank you for talking about a video game in the calm and mature way befitting an adult :)

 

Also, I haven't flown six sorties this month, I've played six games this month... it's a game, not a real war.

 

Anyway, you still haven't adressed a couple of my points. Were anti-tank Ju-87s assigned fighter duties in autumn 1942? Why were all the Bf-109s on holiday?

Edited by Cybermat47

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just checked the WoL stats. You have flown 6 sorties this month. Maybe you should fly MP more often before you pretend that you know what you're talking about.

 

[Edited]

Edited by Bearcat
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First off, thank you for talking about a video game in the calm and mature way befitting an adult :)

[Edited]

Edited by Bearcat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW - an old video of TD's AI shooting rework. It made a load of difference in game, and didn't need a load of extra resources (except for programming work). So what BoS does at this point can certainly be improved with no ill effect on performance.

 

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do second the need to focus on AI more. Actually, I can't imagine how the AI can be ignored considering the new announced features - the new campaign and coop mode.

 

I think the primary focus at the moment is to exand on the content. After that it'll be a matter of resources, I certainly hope the AI will get improvements. This thread has been a timely reminder to me about what I want out of this game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another very specific idea: seeing reports that both AI Fw190s and P-40s are very prone to stalls and spins suggests that the fighter AI is generic and does not take into account individual aircraft characteristics (or at least not the critical AoA).  

 

Either the generic limits need to be set so that all AI planes can make simple manoeuvres most of the time (I like the odd stall and spin in AI, makes for variety), or the planes need customized limits. Otherwise some aircraft will be essentially unusable as opponents or wingmen in SP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the primary focus at the moment is to exand on the content. After that it'll be a matter of resources, I certainly hope the AI will get improvements. This thread has been a timely reminder to me about what I want out of this game.

 

That may be true, but what doesn't sit with me well is that there are real significant issues with the AI sp, the sp players who are the main financial feeders of this game (pretty good guess here (developers know truth here, or should)) are grumbling about it, and there doesn't seem to be a clear statement that it is going to be a significant priority --- if anything, it is more like a, "We will look at it a bit over time when/if we can."

 

Either they (developers) don't see this as a major issue, don't know how to fix it, or don't care to...all three scenarios not good  :unsure:  And I don't buy the, "it's too difficult because the AI uses the same FM" arguement (WOFF, small development team, common FMs, great AI debunks this). To me, it doesn't matter how many theaters or planes or add-ons there are, if the game engine cannot do a decent job simulating WWII combat pilot experience, then it really doesn't matter. I've decided not to pre-order Kuban because of this (no clear firm indication and prioritization of this issue by the higher ups). 

Edited by Redwo1f

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^

WoFF AI is really good.

I hope Jason will do his best to improve it in BoX too.
I am somehow optimistic, so I pre-ordered BoK.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not optimistic - but I ordered BoK anyway.  :unsure:

 

I 'm not too....

I finally find again the post giving an idea of the current roadmap for AI deep improvement

 

 

Stuff we'd like to make eventually but not in plan maybe future products:

 

There are several things we'd like to make that are not in the plan as of now. We always have to make tough choices, but if we can be more successful we can maybe find a way. Some examples.

 

1. Female Soviet Pilot Model.

2. Re-vamp of GUI t0 be more thematic.

3. Hyperlobby-like interface for COOP Mode.

4. Italian Radio Chatter. (possible with sound mod)

5. Deep dive into AI decision making.

 

This seems to me a clue that AI is considered as a minor issue by 777 (at least as important as female pilot model or italian radio chatter)....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That worries me to, but I hope we will be able to persuade them to make a shallow dive into AI decision making.

 

There must be a matrix of changes with an array of difficulty to program on one axis and difference to game-play on the other. (I have never found an easy to use graphics package to make matrices...)

 

If we can identify the ones that require only a small investment in reprogramming but a good improvement in game-play, we get get some items that are worth the effort to the team in terms of the love and affection with which we will shower them.

 

btw, do not knock the female pilot model (so to speak), I am sure she will generate a lot of movie interest, especially once modded.

Edited by unreasonable

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I 'm not too....

I finally find again the post giving an idea of the current roadmap for AI deep improvement

 

 

This seems to me a clue that AI is considered as a minor issue by 777 (at least as important as female pilot model or italian radio chatter)....

 

You are wrong. Don't put words in my mouth. I've explained my stance on the AI above.

 

Jason

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know I was a bit clumsy and provocative, but I'd like soooo much to read a response from you acting that AI is really an important thing for SP gameplay and that you will start a progress action on it, even with small steps, limited resources and no engagement...

Another silly idea : open AI to mods (with documentation), so instead of complaining about it, we will be brought up short by its difficulties...And maybe it may give some improvment, that may help to wait a serious work from your team.

Edited by lefuneste
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are wrong. Don't put words in my mouth. I've explained my stance on the AI above.

 

Jason

I must confess, I drew and draw the same conclusion based on that link. Still, I guess we can only hope that the AI constitutes some of "the technology and features the community wants to see in our products and try to re-capture some of the magic that made the original Sturmovik so much fun.".

 

The only official response in this thread up until this point doesn't build confidence, but I guess the fact this has at least been moved to "Developer..... Suggestions" is a good thing? Mind you the title rename seems to suggest that this considered more of an opinion that AI needs improvement as opposed to what I would consider inarguable fact.

 

The AI needs attention... Not sure why I would be expected to keep buying products over the next 5 years before this can be addressed at least in part.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion the AI should have a high priority, higher then some new planes and maps.

Maybe the sales proof them right and i dont know if they know how many people are playing there game.

Next time i will not pay for another theater and new planes if there is not the best AI we can get.

I hope that im not the minority of WW2 Simpilots who think this way, in my opinion everyone will benefit from a better AI.

And if this means simplified physics for AI its all fine as long as there is no overperforming and we can have many AIs in the sky and on the ground.

And most important, dont make the AI have 360° of radar detection, thats the biggest issue for now and needs to be done first and then we need the AI to perform tasks like Escorting, Hunting, ground attcking and bombing right and then tactics and manuvering, get rid of that crazy wobbling around when they being chased, thats ridic.

This is just my opinion and i think im not the only one who think that AI is more important than new planes and maps, its one of the most important things a game like this needs when realesed even Warthunder, a true online game with focus on multiplayer has a AI, dont know how good or bad but they have one.

So for now, im flying IL2 1946, the better WW2 Sim in my opinion, it just looks not so good but the AI is enjoyable.

 

ps. I fully unlocked all the unlocks and skins this game has to offer, so i played alot with this freakin AI and im tired of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maube the PTO is the best theater to focus on AI since they can divert resources from map building?

 

i think there will be some improvement on AI for the Kuban career since theyre adding a lotof features to the career mode (see todays DD)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Han has confirmed that the AI does not target the human player with a higher priority. In fact, it doesn't even know which aircraft have human pilots. So a "problem" that several people have reported isn't really a thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Strange how the phenomenon has been noticed and reported so frequently then.

 

Perhaps, BSR is correct in his assumption that all of us that fly offline are completely stupid then!?!

 

However, I find it strange that Pat Wilson has posted that he's attempting a workaround to eliminate the phenomenon of 'AI ganging up on the player' from occurring in PWCG missions.

 

So, as a developer has confirmed this is not supposed to happen, and Han believes the AI is coded for this not to happen, it seems the reality is quite different.

 

Perhaps we're not all morons after all, perhaps it's a bug.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thing Han mentioned, was that AI is looking for advantage, this might be the interesting point. When there is a group of three AI fighters, as they mostly fly together, and on the other side one single fighter, the player, it is quite understandable, why they choose engaging the player. But what also was mentioned by players, and I noticed it quite often, too, is, once AI has started to engage the player, they hardly ever stop engaging him, even if they get attacked by the rest of the players flight. But if they are attacking an AI aircraft and the player starts engaging them, they, most times immediately let the AI go and start engaging the player. So I very much doubt, that AI does not know which aircraft is the players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Strange how the phenomenon has been noticed and reported so frequently then.

Perhaps, BSR is correct in his assumption that all of us that fly offline are completely stupid then!?!

However, I find it strange that Pat Wilson has posted that he's attempting a workaround to eliminate the phenomenon of 'AI ganging up on the player' from occurring in PWCG missions.

So, as a developer has confirmed this is not supposed to happen, and Han believes the AI is coded for this not to happen, it seems the reality is quite different.

Perhaps we're not all morons after all, perhaps it's a bug.

I'm curious how you think a bug like that would occur? As Han noted, the AI doesn't just treat the human player like any other, the AI doesn't even know which aircraft contain human players. Do you think the AI is smart enough to figure out which players are human? Did one of the programmers feel bad for the AI and secretly add some code to help them get revenge on their human overlords?

 

More likely it's that people don't like to admit that they were shot down by AI, so it must be the AI ganging up on them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, that must be it.

 

After all offliners are known for their boastful nature, coming to the various forums telling anyone that will listen just how they pwnd the n00b AI bots.

 

Maybe Pat Wilson is in-on-it and he's going along with the 'story' that the offliners have invented because ... erm ... ?

 

Since we have no knowledge of the AI threat-detection algorithm, apart from Han's vague description, we have no idea where it might be failing.

 

Unless you're suggesting that suddenly, we live in a universe where all software functions flawlessly and, those things we used to call 'bugs' no longer exist?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless you're suggesting that suddenly, we live in a universe where all software functions flawlessly and, those things we used to call 'bugs' no longer exist?

I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. I'm asking you, with your extensive programming knowledge and experience, how you think this particular bug could occur.

Yeah, that must be it.

After all offliners are known for their boastful nature, coming to the various forums telling anyone that will listen just how they pwnd the n00b AI bots.

Um, no one boasts about shooting down the AI because everyone knows it sucks. So when it shoots you down...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, you got me. Because I don't program, that must mean there can't possibly be a bug with the AI ganging up on the player.

It has nothing to do with you not being a programmer. But the person who is a programmer just told us that the AI don't know who the human pilots are. Since you're calling him a liar, it will probably help if you have a plausible explanation for how that could happen.

 

Strange how Pat Wilson, who does program, appears to believe there is something wrong with the AI target prioritisation.

Weird.

I'm pretty sure that was posted before Han confirmed that the AI don"t know which aircraft have human pilots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lol you're reaching.

 

Pat's post was before Han's.

 

But there hasn't been a patch to the game inbetween Pat's post and Han's.

 

So the issue, which Pat has acknowledged as a reality, is still part of the game.

 

Han's post simply confirms the fact that the behaviour, which Pat and others have experienced, is not how the AI algorithm is designed.

Edited by Extreme_One

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lol you're reaching.

 

Lol. The developer has confirmed that I was correct.

So the issue, which Pat has acknowledged as a reality, is still part of the game.

 

Pat doesn't have access to the AI code.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In this case, I actually do care. I flew a lot of SP missions to unlock all my mods and weapons and I was not seeing the "gang" behavior directed at me that others were reporting. So it's good to have my observations confirmed by a developer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you care that a member of the developmemt team validates your observations.

 

Cool. That must be a nice feeling.

 

In the meantime, there are lots of other people, that clearly fly a lot more SP than you do, that have different observations.

 

But, of course you couldn't possibly accept that other players might have seen something that you didn't.

 

So, as you've made clear on many occasions, your experiences trump all others and everyone else must be stupid.

 

The BoX community are fortunate to have you.

Thanks for taking the time to grace us with your presence.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...