Jump to content
Mmaruda

I don't like the AI

Recommended Posts

Ok so here is the problem. The AI completely ruins single-player in the the game. After achieving a certain pilot level they just get too good. And by good I don't mean they can fly, or use tactics or creative manoeuvres - all they do is use perfect control to go around in circles on the edge of stall, wobbling like crazy, or if you let them they take it vertical, turn on a dime and shoot at insane angles in a split second... I could live with that, but the friendly AI kills it completely - shoulder shooting, crashing on take off and today was the final straw and my wingman first shredded my plane when shoulder shooting a 109 I was tailing then he crashed into me - thanks for wasting 30 minutes of flight to get to the action point...

 

For some reason the same things happen in QMB - like it does not matter what skill level I set them to, they act the same way as in the campaign.

 

So here is the thing, I know that Kuban is going to bring proper SP campaigns that we have all been waiting for. However, I hate to sound like a bad dude here, but dear devs, don't even bother unless you fix the AI first. I seem to remember a long time ago when the AI was quite ok,  but can't recall the patch number. Then again, I did not have my pilot level up then.

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hopefully they allow you to set the difficulty instead of pilot level. I ranked up intercepting bombers in planes i'm good at flying. When I try to fly a bomber or ground attacker which i'm not used too, i get lazer beamed.

It seems like players would naturally fly what they're good at first, then later spread their wings, but the difficulty is ramped up too much by that point.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a good news for me. That's more challenging, will help me to become a better pilot.

Thanks for the info and i hope you will kill those enemies. :gamer:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok so here is the problem. The AI completely ruins single-player in the the game. After achieving a certain pilot level they just get too good. And by good I don't mean they can fly, or use tactics or creative manoeuvres - all they do is use perfect control to go around in circles on the edge of stall, wobbling like crazy, or if you let them they take it vertical, turn on a dime and shoot at insane angles in a split second... I could live with that, but the friendly AI kills it completely - shoulder shooting, crashing on take off and today was the final straw and my wingman first shredded my plane when shoulder shooting a 109 I was tailing then he crashed into me - thanks for wasting 30 minutes of flight to get to the action point...

 

For some reason the same things happen in QMB - like it does not matter what skill level I set them to, they act the same way as in the campaign.

 

So here is the thing, I know that Kuban is going to bring proper SP campaigns that we have all been waiting for. However, I hate to sound like a bad dude here, but dear devs, don't even bother unless you fix the AI first. I seem to remember a long time ago when the AI was quite ok,  but can't recall the patch number. Then again, I did not have my pilot level up then.

Hits the nail on the head.  I've always been mystified when people say they enjoy singleplayer.  I'm not sure how that's even possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hits the nail on the head. I've always been mystified when people say they enjoy singleplayer. I'm not sure how that's even possible.

The singleplayer experience can be absolutely brilliant when it's done well. It's just been a long time since anyone has made it that way.

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dip into the campaign rarely now. I could tolerate the sniper enemies if my wingmen were useful. As it is, I'm left fighting the war on my own.

 

Flying escort, my wing gets distracted intercepting enemy bombers 1000M above and is late to the action when we are intercepted.

 

Flying ground support in the 110 (with a full bomb load), my wing starts engaging enemy 1-16s or somehow disappears completely. I have to loiter over the target while the sky is buzzing in what should have been a simple in and out run on artillery.

 

Flying bomber intercept, my wing of 3 tangles with the escort while I make runs on the bombers singlehandedly. Needless to say all the gunners are targeting me.

 

I'm not a great pilot, and don't have a solid appreciation of tactics, so these disadvantages mean I usually fail an SP mission. Having the wing prioritise targets correctly and respond to commands would go a long way to increasing my enjoyment. Particularly, I'd like to be able to divide my flight into multiple red, green and blue pairs as in 1946, and assign different targets. Having 1 wing stay with me while another pair engages escort or suppresses AAA would greatly increase my success rate.

 

Regards

Albino

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The singleplayer experience can be absolutely brilliant when it's done well. It's just been a long time since anyone has made it that way.

 

It's never been done well.  AI pilots are not good at pretending to be human, and probably never will be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been talking about this for a long time. It seems like ROF's AI has been ported in, to be honest. At least they usually don't fly straight into the ground.

 

But AI is very complex to code well in a sim like IL2 BOS which doesn't simplify for the AI, unlike DCS... and let's be honest, the devs are trying to continue and expand the franchise rather than polish a complex and relatively low yield yield issue like poor AI.

 

It should be improved, there is no doubt. Likely we should just add it onto the list of things the devs want to do given time and money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Given how resource constrained the developers are I wish they could find a way to contract out the work to modders. Some AI mods were made for RoF with beneficial effects, so it can be done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The singleplayer experience can be absolutely brilliant when it's done well. It's just been a long time since anyone has made it that way.

Sarcasm..........right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sarcasm..........right?

 

No I'm very serious.  Singleplayer gameplay has been nowhere near its full potential for more than a decade.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No I'm very serious.  Singleplayer gameplay has been nowhere near its full potential for more than a decade.

 

Sorry, but no.  It's full potential is complete crap.  It's never had a problem reaching that potential.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There will always be the Multiplayer-only snobs that feel, because they don't enjoy a single player experience then anybody that does is just plain deluded.

 

Why a multiplayer-only gamer would waste their time in a thread about AI is anybody's guess, since good AI or bad AI, it doesn't affect them in the slightest.

Edited by Extreme_One
  • Upvote 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AI is not really fun IMO. But apart from the sniping and low alt continuous turn ... It is better at representing the average ww2 pilot than the multiplayer environement.

 

It is really bad if you turn fight at low speed with it, if you keep to energy fighting and bouncing , it is easy, but credible.

 

I do not say I like it.

Edited by LAL_Trinkof

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, but no. It's full potential is complete crap. It's never had a problem reaching that potential.

Well...there is definitely some crap in the immediate vicinity.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The AI is not good anough to serioulsy play SP. Just enough to train a bit, but all missions are soon frustrating because of your stupid wingman behaviour.

This put me away from Bos/BoM.

Unfortunately improving AI is not on the to do list of Jason for BoK...

I am curious to see the future pacific theater, where all IA american planes will try to out-turn zero instead of B&Z them...

 

This is not the first post on the subject, the last one was : http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/24928-please-working-fixingimproving-ai/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Unfortunately improving AI is not on the to do list of Jason for BoK...

 

Jason mentioned a deep dive into AI decision making might be something that would be worked on in the far future, so I can see how that can be understood as "not going to work on that for BoK".

 

However, there are other improvements that can be done without doing super deep changes. One of them is improving CPU usage of AI routines, something that is being worked on now. That could allow for more AIs in the sky, but it could also mean a more fine-tuned AI that flies more smoothly, doesn't stall so often (thinking of the FW and the P40) and aims even better (for those who want it to shoot better).

 

By the way, if people want to attract the devs' attention on some issue, coming in yelling with overly negatively sounding titles might not be the best way to achieve that (aiming at the OP there)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree the AI could certainly do with some improvement. ;)

I usually set aside a half hour here or there to fly which means it’s QMB for me. What irritates me is the low speed flying the AI do as in popping flaps, prop hanging and performing miracle reversals at close to zero speed. In addition, the AI seem to know to pull exactly that little bit extra to ruin your set up when you are pulling for lead. Also, they have perfect SA and never lose you visually or get surprised from a low 6 approach.

 

While programming AI is without doubt difficult, implementing a few of the simple rules for the AI would go a long way IMHO:

1) Limit AI flap usage to take off and landing. While IRL accounts of flap usage do occur, they are rare and the exception, not the rule.
2) Limit the AI lower speed usage, i.e. set the AI to target a certain lowest speed as a function of the AI plane stall speed so the perfectly controlled low speed flip around on a dime is eliminated.
3) Just like for humans, make the AI probability of seeing you be dependent on distance meaning that it will be possible to approach undetected. This should both be dependent on distance but also from which direction you approach the AI.
4) Introduce a random based “loose visual contact” factor where the AI actually stops tracking you for a few seconds before reaquiring you visually again in manouvering combat.
5) Implement blind sectors for AI from where it is possible to sneak up on them.

Of course, all of these improvements can’t be implemented in one go but progressive steps in this direction would be good.

Edited by Holtzauge
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok so here is the problem. The AI completely ruins single-player in the the game. After achieving a certain pilot level they just get too good. And by good I don't mean they can fly, or use tactics or creative manoeuvres - all they do is use perfect control to go around in circles on the edge of stall, wobbling like crazy, or if you let them they take it vertical, turn on a dime and shoot at insane angles in a split second... I could live with that, but the friendly AI kills it completely - shoulder shooting, crashing on take off and today was the final straw and my wingman first shredded my plane when shoulder shooting a 109 I was tailing then he crashed into me - thanks for wasting 30 minutes of flight to get to the action point...

 

For some reason the same things happen in QMB - like it does not matter what skill level I set them to, they act the same way as in the campaign.

 

So here is the thing, I know that Kuban is going to bring proper SP campaigns that we have all been waiting for. However, I hate to sound like a bad dude here, but dear devs, don't even bother unless you fix the AI first. I seem to remember a long time ago when the AI was quite ok,  but can't recall the patch number. Then again, I did not have my pilot level up then.

 

I've been trying hard to like the single player experience since I bought BoS

But that screenshot is just a perfect picture of what have been pissing me off for 1 and a half year now.

 

20160917102636_1.jpg

 

Not to mention a lot of other issues people have already reported.

 

I also hate the distinction AI makes between you and other AI :

If they chase you, they will keep shooting at you no matter what may happen or how many of your wingmen are sticking on their 6.

If they chase another AI, they will break off as soon as you reach 400m on their 6.

 

Get an 8 plane flight, your 4 and 4 escort in the campaign. 98% of the time you encounter enemy fighters, guess who is going to be chased down the whole fight ?

The fact that this "KILL THE HUMAN" behavior has been around for so long and not cured makes me wonder if we will ever see an enjoyable single player mode.

 

Even today, when I want to fly offline, I fire the old IL2 because despite the AI planes having a simpler flight model, their behavior is much more credible at trying to be human.

 

1) Limit AI flap usage to take off and landing. While IRL accounts of flap usage do occur, they are rare and the exception, not the rule.

2) Limit the AI lower speed usage, i.e. set the AI to target a certain lowest speed as a function of the AI plane stall speed so the perfectly controlled low speed flip around on a dime is eliminated.

3) Just like for humans, make the AI probability of seeing you be dependent on distance meaning that it will be possible to approach undetected. This should both be dependent on distance but also from which direction you approach the AI.

4) Introduce a random based “loose visual contact” factor where the AI actually stops tracking you for a few seconds before reaquiring you visually again in manouvering combat.

5) Implement blind sectors for AI from where it is possible to sneak up on them.

 

That would be a good start

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

... all they do is use perfect control to go around in circles on the edge of stall, wobbling like crazy, ...

 

This is easily my number one dislike, to the point that I ended up strapping bombs to everything and only flying ground attack missions as I went through the BoS campaign. Most encounters with enemy aircraft played out that way and in the end I found it no fun to fly against.

 

Personally I don't have any expectations of the AI in terms of being challenging or 'human-like'. It just needs to be good enough to enhance my enjoyment of flying the aircraft.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been trying hard to like the single player experience since I bought BoS

But that screenshot is just a perfect picture of what have been pissing me off for 1 and a half year now.

 

20160917102636_1.jpg

 

Not to mention a lot of other issues people have already reported.

 

I also hate the distinction AI makes between you and other AI :

If they chase you, they will keep shooting at you no matter what may happen or how many of your wingmen are sticking on their 6.

If they chase another AI, they will break off as soon as you reach 400m on their 6.

 

Get an 8 plane flight, your 4 and 4 escort in the campaign. 98% of the time you encounter enemy fighters, guess who is going to be chased down the whole fight ?

The fact that this "KILL THE HUMAN" behavior has been around for so long and not cured makes me wonder if we will ever see an enjoyable single player mode.

 

Even today, when I want to fly offline, I fire the old IL2 because despite the AI planes having a simpler flight model, their behavior is much more credible at trying to be human.

 

Now that was one funny screenshot. :lol:

 

Is it really that bad in campaign? I never started up campaign, I just fire up QMB now and then, mostly for some 1v1 ACM but sometimes also 2v2 or 4v4 etc. Now that you mention it, I have noticed that in 2v2 or more the enemy AI tend to gang up on you and that your "mates" while not being very interested in covering your back are very keen to edge in on your kills as in doing a prolonged chase and just when you are about to hit the button, one of your AI "buddies" pulls ahead and fires that perfect short burst right in front of your nose.......

 

So that would be another good one for the list: remove AI "kill human" and "steal human kills" bias.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Is it really that bad in campaign? I never started up campaign, I just fire up QMB now and then, mostly for some 1v1 ACM but sometimes also 2v2 or 4v4 etc. Now that you mention it, I have noticed that in 2v2 or more the enemy AI tend to gang up on you and that your "mates" while not being very interested in covering your back are very keen to edge in on your kills as in doing a prolonged chase and just when you are about to hit the button, one of your AI "buddies" pulls ahead and fires that perfect short burst right in front of your nose.......

 

Haha ! My complain list about the AI is so long I forgot that steal kill bit :biggrin: 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3) Just like for humans, make the AI probability of seeing you be dependent on distance meaning that it will be possible to approach undetected. This should both be dependent on distance but also from which direction you approach the AI.

4) Introduce a random based “loose visual contact” factor where the AI actually stops tracking you for a few seconds before reaquiring you visually again in manouvering combat.

5) Implement blind sectors for AI from where it is possible to sneak up on them.

 

I hope to see these features one day. I expect that tracking AI 'visual contact' awareness and performing checks to see if you are visible from the cockpit would add to the CPU bottleneck :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Why a multiplayer-only gamer would waste their time in a thread about AI is anybody's guess, since good AI or bad AI, it doesn't affect them in the slightest

 

Quiet a few MP servers actually use A.I.

 

Why you would think otheriwse is anybody's guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I am curious to see the future pacific theater, where all IA american planes will try to out-turn zero instead of B&Z them...

 

 

Also watching them try to land on a carrier, if any of them miraculously manage to survive a mission..... (good comic potential for a movie though, similar to my RoF "Ich hatt'einen Kameraden" ).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also watching them try to land on a carrier, if any of them miraculously manage to survive a mission..... (good comic potential for a movie though, similar to my RoF "Ich hatt'einen Kameraden" ).

 

Oh boy, let the AI IQ where it is and that will be a freaking facepalm fest !!!

Edited by F/JG300_Gruber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Why a multiplayer-only gamer would waste their time in a thread about AI is anybody's guess, since good AI or bad AI, it doesn't affect them in the slightest.

 

Several years ago I was playing Rise of Flight in the evening.  For some reason I distinctly remember this mission.  I had a Sopwith Pup and was industriously flying the length of the lines hunting for enemy balloons.  The server had about a dozen people on at the time.  Among them was a relative newcomer who called himself BraveSirRobin.    A message popped up saying he had shot down an enemy aircraft, but did not give the other player's name.  This BraveSirRobin fellow typed in that it was his first kill and then asked with pride who his doughty opponent was.  Nobody replied.  He asked again, and after a pause one of the more senior players informed him it was an AI.  I didn't offer comment, but I remember a couple of other players Lol'ed.  I think it was a defining moment for BraveSirRobin, and has made him the man you see today.

  • Upvote 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, but no.  It's full potential is complete crap.  It's never had a problem reaching that potential.

Well, if singleplayer isn't going anywhere, why waste time commenting on it?

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok so here is the problem. The AI completely ruins single-player in the the game. After achieving a certain pilot level they just get too good. And by good I don't mean they can fly, or use tactics or creative manoeuvres - all they do is use perfect control to go around in circles on the edge of stall, wobbling like crazy, or if you let them they take it vertical, turn on a dime and shoot at insane angles in a split second... I could live with that, but the friendly AI kills it completely - shoulder shooting, crashing on take off and today was the final straw and my wingman first shredded my plane when shoulder shooting a 109 I was tailing then he crashed into me - thanks for wasting 30 minutes of flight to get to the action point...

 

For some reason the same things happen in QMB - like it does not matter what skill level I set them to, they act the same way as in the campaign.

 

So here is the thing, I know that Kuban is going to bring proper SP campaigns that we have all been waiting for. However, I hate to sound like a bad dude here, but dear devs, don't even bother unless you fix the AI first. I seem to remember a long time ago when the AI was quite ok,  but can't recall the patch number. Then again, I did not have my pilot level up then.

 

Ok so here is the problem. The AI completely ruins single-player in the the game. After achieving a certain pilot level they just get too good. And by good I don't mean they can fly, or use tactics or creative manoeuvres - all they do is use perfect control to go around in circles on the edge of stall, wobbling like crazy, or if you let them they take it vertical, turn on a dime and shoot at insane angles in a split second... I could live with that, but the friendly AI kills it completely - shoulder shooting, crashing on take off and today was the final straw and my wingman first shredded my plane when shoulder shooting a 109 I was tailing then he crashed into me - thanks for wasting 30 minutes of flight to get to the action point...

 

For some reason the same things happen in QMB - like it does not matter what skill level I set them to, they act the same way as in the campaign.

 

So here is the thing, I know that Kuban is going to bring proper SP campaigns that we have all been waiting for. However, I hate to sound like a bad dude here, but dear devs, don't even bother unless you fix the AI first. I seem to remember a long time ago when the AI was quite ok,  but can't recall the patch number. Then again, I did not have my pilot level up then.

+1000 percent

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Must ... not ... respond ... to ... MP ... Snob ... :rolleyes:

MP snob has nothing to do with anything. I'd be fine with fighting against AI if it was even close to acting like humans. It isn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Several years ago I was playing Rise of Flight in the evening.  For some reason I distinctly remember this mission.  I had a Sopwith Pup and was industriously flying the length of the lines hunting for enemy balloons.  The server had about a dozen people on at the time.  Among them was a relative newcomer who called himself BraveSirRobin.    A message popped up saying he had shot down an enemy aircraft, but did not give the other player's name.  This BraveSirRobin fellow typed in that it was his first kill and then asked with pride who his doughty opponent was.  Nobody replied.  He asked again, and after a pause one of the more senior players informed him it was an AI.  I didn't offer comment, but I remember a couple of other players Lol'ed.  I think it was a defining moment for BraveSirRobin, and has made him the man you see today.

You are lying. I didn't start using the BraveSirRobin profile until I already had a few thousand RoF MP kills.

 

A few of the RoF profiles that I have used:

 

Leprechaun

KrustyTheKlown

KrustyVonKlown

Statwhore

Freddy Krueger

Penny Wise

 

If the incident did take place, most likely I was informing some noob that he had just killed AI.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No I'm very serious.  Singleplayer gameplay has been nowhere near its full potential for more than a decade.

I may have misunderstood your point. BOM/BOS in my opinion have the worst AI  and ME compared to   IL-2 1946 and , Cliffs of Dover.  To the point where you rally cannot even consider BOM/BOS have a SP option, it appears to be an after thought. The bomber formations simply sway back and forth like a synchronized swimming event. If your point was it has been ten years since a developer has programmed believable, historically accurate AI behavior, I second that emotion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW I wasn't even commenting on the AI in the current iteration of IL2.

 

It's pretty woeful and as I only fly offline it means that, at presen, I really can't get into the game as much as I'd like.

 

The AI in the previous IL2 game was far more useful. I'm not claiming it would always behave perfectly, and sometimes it was prone to weird behaviour, but overall you could get an enjoyable experience using AI alone.

 

I'm really hoping the recent statement Jason made means the AI becomes as useful as it should be.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's disheartening to be cruising in a tank in dense woods over a hill from enemy tanks 1200 meters away only to have the enemy tanks start hitting you shot after shot.  Your only hope is to get out of a physically possible trajectory because the AI constantly sees you.

 

 

I've posted this before but it really is a good article and directly addresses the topic of AI and resource management so I'll link it again.  While it promotes DX12 it does show the difficulty of managing AI in current systems.

 

  http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/219358-why-ai-still-sucks-in-video-games-and-how-directx-12-could-change-it-for-the-better

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem may partly come back to the "AI flies using same FM" issue.

 

The AI, it seems, cannot be "taught" to fly in realistic formations. For some reason, they are even worse than RoF's AI at doing this, whose AI pilots can at least manage a V formation that does not stretch out over a kilometer: for some aircraft and as long as the leader makes no sudden moves....but if you are flight leader your wingman will at least try to form up at 4 or 8 o'clock. In BoX it is more like 5:30 and 6:30. 

 

The trouble in IL46 was the performance boost the AI got, so that an I-16 could overhaul an F2 in a tailchase. 

 

But in BoX we get an equally annoying balancer - the "pilot level" mechanism and sniper AI, but without the benefits of scripted AI.

 

It would be a huge plus to get a real improvement.

 

That was a good article. They should have left the skooma effect on NPCs alone....

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The AI in 1946 doesn't really have performance boost, it has simplifications. Many of the simplifications that effected aircraft performance, such as lack of overheating, have been eliminated by Team Daidalos AI rework. If you get caught by an I-16 in your Bf109F, it no longer is down to AI. You will still see AI perform scripted landings. You can either spend a lot of time and computing on teaching AI the perfect landing, or you can spend these resources elsewhere. In that sense, I'm all for scripted landings.

 

We've also had the "AI always focuses on the player" complaint in Il-2:1946. However, this was just placebo at some point. There were no more special routines making AI focus on the player. What AI did was focus on the highest threat and, in case of doubt, the flight leader. Now usually, a good human player beats AI in terms of posing a threat and often leads the flight, which made enemy AI target him more often than his team mates.

 

I sure hope BoX is not a leap back in that regards, and honestly, I don't think it is. I tend to attract AI's special attention if I'm the only one who manages to fire at them. And if the AI target selection code is threat based, maybe all the guys need to do is to adjust the threat level according the number of planes chasing someone already. Really, if four AI are chasing one target already, the fifth doesn't really make a difference, and that is easy enough to program.

Edited by JtD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×