Do you think chutekilling is acceptable ?

[Reggie_Mental]

I can't believe  people are having this daft conversation. With so many games with bodycounts in the hundreds we are pretty benign.

 

I think Soviet pilots were instructed to kill pilots on chutes over enemy held territory but not over Soviet held territory. A captured pilot has an intelligence value. But a dead pilot is harder to replace than the aircraft he bailed out of.

 

German pilots# on the other hand didn't need to be told to kill Soviet pilots dangling on the end of a chute. They had been indoctrinated by nazism to see slavs and bolsheviks as sub human anyway. The penetration of Nazi ideology was at it's highest in the Luftwaffe aside from the SS.

 

The Eastern front was a war without pity. Neither side respected the Geneva convention, which specifically states that descending paratroopers can be fired upon, but bailing out aircrew cannot be fired upon.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Reggie_Mental

[THERION]

"...the Geneva convention, which specifically states that descending paratroopers can be fired upon, but bailing out aircrew cannot be fired upon..." = Moral hypocrisy

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

It's not moral hypocrisy. While I am opposed to chute killing, paratroopers have an offensive capability on the ground - particularly en masse. Bailed our aircrew have essentially none and will shortly be prisoners of war.

[CUJO_1970]

8 hours ago, Reggie_Mental said:

German pilots# on the other hand didn't need to be told to kill Soviet pilots dangling on the end of a chute. They had been indoctrinated by nazism to see slavs and bolsheviks as sub human anyway. The penetration of Nazi ideology was at it's highest in the Luftwaffe aside from the SS.

 

German pilots were regularly beaten to death after surviving a forced landing or bailout in Soviet territory - there are many examples of this as the commies were notorious for it...and the Luftwaffe was the least indoctrinated arm of the German military - many of the pilots were apolitical. Caldwell writes in the unit history of JG/26 that Nazi political officers were the butt of constant dislike and ridicule.

 

The best thing to happen to a downed airmen other than evading capture altogether was to be captured by the Luftwaffe - many downed Allied airmen owe their survival to being captured and protected by the Luftwaffe.

[Sgt_Joch]

considering the Nazis murdered around 2,500,000 Soviet POWs in 1941-42, they are hardly in a position to be claiming the moral high ground....

[Gambit21]

12 hours ago, Reggie_Mental said:

I can't believe  people are having this daft conversation. With so many games with bodycounts in the hundreds we are pretty benign.

 

Well to be fair they'd stopped over a year ago until you resurrected this thread just now...so....

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

It's pixels. When folks get blood on their keyboards then the complaint will hold some validity. Until then pixel slaughter or don't, the gfx card will render some more.

 

 

...and paging @LukeFF and the overly abused pony.

[Cybermat47]

2 hours ago, TheOldCrow said:

 

Great book series to read on this is called "German Ace's Speak" going and posting interviews with 8 different surviving ww2 German Ace's. Including famous names like Hartmann, Krupinski, Steinhoff, and Ral. All leaders and knights cross with oak leaves and swords. Hartmann with Diamonds. All fervently against shooting at chutes. In fact Ral chastised Erich Hartmann for leaving his wing after being so angry that a Russian Red banner pilot killed a man in his parachute. The could be issued a court marshal or executed for such an act. 

 

I’d take that with a grain of salt. If any of them had ever shot a man in his parachute, then they would have every reason to lie about it after losing the war. I’m not accusing them of anything, just pointing out that they’re an inherently biased source. 

[Eisenfaustus]

3 hours ago, TheOldCrow said:

 

Great book series to read on this is called "German Ace's Speak" going and posting interviews with 8 different surviving ww2 German Ace's. Including famous names like Hartmann, Krupinski, Steinhoff, and Ral. All leaders and knights cross with oak leaves and swords. Hartmann with Diamonds. All fervently against shooting at chutes. In fact Ral chastised Erich Hartmann for leaving his wing after being so angry that a Russian Red banner pilot killed a man in his parachute. The could be issued a court marshal or executed for such an act. 

 

Name one instance of a German pilot shot for leaving formation to fight! You were shot for high treason - and leaving formation to disengage in the losing days would be seen as such. But if you (successfully) attacked after leaving formation you would get medals, even if your unit leader chastized you.

 

And it was Krupinski not Hartmann.

 

And yes - the few surviving German fighter pilots claim they fought a clean war - and mavbe they did. But since not even 10% of the Jagdflieger survived the war, more than 90% never had even a chance to confess (and a strong incentive not to do so)

 

Nevertheless Allied claims of Germans strafing chutes are rare (But they exist!), German claims on Allies doing the same are not (mainly Russian and American)

[TheOldCrow]

11 minutes ago, Eisenfaustus said:

Name one instance of a German pilot shot for leaving formation to fight!

 

I was talking about punishment for shooting a parachute not leaving formation. My bad

[Cybermat47]

1 hour ago, TheOldCrow said:

 

I was talking about punishment for shooting a parachute not leaving formation. My bad

 

The Wehrmacht high command ordered troops to shoot children for being Jewish, and organised the long-term rape of thousands of sex slaves. I doubt they’d court martial someone for shooting at a parachute, even if their CO wanted to. Remember, the head of the Luftwaffe was Hermann Göring, and he was only one of the many high-ranking Wehrmacht officers who were fervent Nazis.

Edited October 8, 2019 by [Pb]Cybermat47

[von_Michelstamm]

I feel dirty even chutekilling the ai and don’t do it?

Against people, why go out of your way to be a thuggish lowbrow? This isnt fallout or GTA.

[Cybermat47]

53 minutes ago, von_Michelstamm said:

I feel dirty even chutekilling the ai and don’t do it?

Against people, why go out of your way to be a thuggish lowbrow? This isnt fallout or GTA.

 

I think there are some servers where actually killing a player will stop them from flying for a while, so it makes sense on those ones. On WOL, KOTA, or any other server, though, you’re right - it’s just a dick move. One that wastes ammo and puts your plane at risk.

[Aap]

1 hour ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

The Wehrmacht high command ordered troops to shoot children for being Jewish, and organised the long-term rape of thousands of sex slaves.

 

Sorry, but you are just making things up here. Wehrmacht high command was never accused, not to mention being found guilty, of such things. 14 Wehrmacht high command officers were accused of war crimes; of these two got lifetime imprisonment (in practice released 1954), five got 15-20 years of imprisonment, three got less than ten years, three were acquitted and one committed suicide during trials. The main charges against those that were found guilty were killing Soviet prisoners of war, mainly political commissars, and killing civilians during anti-partisan activity. None of them were accused of shooting Jewish children or organizing long-term rapes.

[Cybermat47]

32 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

Sorry, but you are just making things up here. Wehrmacht high command was never accused, not to mention being found guilty, of such things. 14 Wehrmacht high command officers were accused of war crimes; of these two got lifetime imprisonment (in practice released 1954), five got 15-20 years of imprisonment, three got less than ten years, three were acquitted and one committed suicide during trials. The main charges against those that were found guilty were killing Soviet prisoners of war, mainly political commissars, and killing civilians during anti-partisan activity. None of them were accused of shooting Jewish children or organizing long-term rapes.

 

“I went to the woods alone. The Wehrmacht had already dug a grave. The children were brought along in a tractor. I had nothing to do with this technical procedure. The Ukrainians were standing around trembling. The children were taken down from the tractor. They were lined up along the top of the grave and shot so that they fell into it. The Ukrainians did not aim at any particular part of the body. They fell into the grave. The wailing was indescribable. I shall never forget the scene throughout my life. I find it very hard to bear. I particulary [sic] remember a small fair-haired girl who took me by the hand. She too was shot later ... The grave was near some woods. It was not near the rifle-range. The execution must have taken place in the afternoon at about 3:30 or 4:00. It took place the day after the discussions at the Feldkommandanten ... Many children were hit four or five times before they died.”

- Father Ernst Tewes, 295. Infanterie-Division, describing the Bila Tserkva massacre of August 21st-22nd 1941.

 

“The most important objective of this campaign against the Jewish-Bolshevik system is the complete destruction of its sources of power and the extermination of the Asiatic influence in European civilization. In this eastern theatre, the soldier is not only a man fighting in accordance with the rules of the art of war, but also the ruthless standard bearer of a national conception and the avenger of bestialities which have been inflicted upon German and racially related nations. For this reason the soldier must learn fully to appreciate the necessity for the severe but just retribution that must be meted out to the subhuman species of Jewry. The Army has to aim at another purpose, i. e., the annihilation of revolts in hinterland which, as experience proves, have always been caused by Jews.”

- Feldmarschall Walther Von Reichenau, 6. Armee, October 10th 1941.

 

“5. Jews and Gypsies: ... As already has been ordered, the Jews have to vanish from the flat country and the Gypsies have to be annihilated too. The carrying out of larger Jewish actions is not the task of the divisional units. They are carried out by civilian or police authorities, if necessary ordered by the commandant of White Ruthenia, if he has special units at his disposal, or for security reasons and in the case of collective punishments. When smaller or larger groups of Jews are met in the flat country, they can be liquidated by divisional units or be massed in the ghettos near bigger villages designated for that purpose, where they can be handed over to the civilian authority or the SD.”

- Order No. 24, issued by the commander of the 707. Infanterie-Division.

 

Information about Wehrmacht sexual slavery in WWII.

 

Were there good people in the Wehrmacht? Yeah. But there were also fanatical Nazis who willingly participated in the Holocaust and other atrocities. The Luftwaffe was even commanded by an Alte Kampfer. The Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht was literally Adolf Hitler.

Edited October 8, 2019 by [Pb]Cybermat47

[Aap]

11 minutes ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

The Wehrmacht had already dug a grave.

 

So, a story about how somebody went into the woods and saw that there was a grave and, based on the shape of the grave (?), decided that it was dug by Wehrmacht - and ordered by Wehrmacht high command - and then saw children being shot by Ukrainians, is all the evidence you need to know that Wehrmacht high command ordered killing of Jewish children? Even though the actual trials never found any trace of Wehrmacht high command ordering killing of Jewish children?

Edited October 8, 2019 by II./JG77_Kemp

[Cybermat47]

7 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

So, a story about how somebody that went into the woods and saw that there was a grave and, based on the shape of the grave (?), decided that it was dug by Wehrmacht - and ordered by Wehrmacht high command - and then shot by Ukrainians, is all the evidence you need to know that Wehrmacht high command ordered killing of Jewish children? Even though the actual trials never found any trace of Wehrmacht high command ordering killing of Jewish children?

 

Given that the “somebody” was a member of the Wehrmacht who had asked for the atrocities to stop, but was explicitly refused by Reichenau, yeah, I’d say it’s pretty good evidence.

 

And are you just going to ignore what Reichenau said, the orders of the 707. Infanterie-Division, the fact that Wehrmacht high command was made up of people like Göring and Hitler, and the information about the sexual slavery?

 

As for the trials, why would the western allies kill people with experience fighting the Soviets, when a war with the Soviets seemed inevitable? The US gave immunity to Unit 731, and the west ignored Soviet war crimes during the war - is it really hard to believe that the west ignored war crimes when it was convenient, when we know for a fact that they ignored war crimes when it was convenient?

Just to be clear, I’m not suggesting that there were no good people in the Wehrmacht. People like Franz Stigler and Wilm Hosenfeld show that there definitely were. But the Wehrmacht was also full of Nazis.

Edited October 8, 2019 by [Pb]Cybermat47

[Aap]

26 minutes ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

Given that the “somebody” was a member of the Wehrmacht who had asked for the atrocities to stop, but was explicitly refused by Reichenau, yeah, I’d say it’s pretty good evidence.

 

So, every member of Wehrmacht was able to figure out, based on a shape of the grave, that Wehrmacht had dug the grave - and that it was ordered by Wehrmacht high command? Even if actual prosecutors during trials could not find any trace of such orders? The fact is that, Wehrmacht high command was never found guilty or accused of killing Jewish children, so you might better stop spreading these lies.

 

26 minutes ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

And are you just going to ignore what Reichenau said, the orders of the 707. Infanterie-Division, the fact that Wehrmacht high command was made up of people like Göring and Hitler, and the information about the sexual slavery?

 

I have not heard what Reichenau said, but I know that Wehrmacht high command was not accused or found guilty of these things that you mention here. Hitler and Göring were hardcore nazis, everybody knows that, but that does not equal to Wehrmacht high command. And about sexual slavery, again Wehrmacht high command was not found guilty of organizing long-term rape. Did you even read your link about this brothel network that you posted? Not a nice thing, but nothing there referred to long-term rape organized by Wehrmacht high command. In addition to that, try to compare this brothel system with the mass-raping that was carried out by Red Army, just to put things a little bit in perspective.

 

26 minutes ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

As for the trials, why would the western allies kill people with experience fighting the Soviets, when a war with the Soviets seemed inevitable?

 

During Nurenberg trials the war with Soviet Union did not seem inevitable in any way. Moreover, the charges against these Wehrmacht high command officers were mostly related to crimes committed against the Soviets - killing Soviet POW's and civilians. If the western allies would have had any evidence of Wehrmacht high command ordering killing of Jewish children and other things like that, do you think they would have concentrated on charges committed against Soviet commissars?

 

26 minutes ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

is it really hard to believe that the west ignored war crimes, when we know for a fact that they ignored war crimes?

 

Yes, we know that west ignored Soviet war crimes, but why would they ignore Wehrmacht high command war crimes against "Jewish children", when they did not ignore such war crimes carried out by the nazis in charge? Also, it was not like they tried to spare Wehrmacht specifically, because they also sentenced Wehrmacht commanders to death, like Wilhelm Keitel, though his charges were also mostly about giving orders of executing POW's and civilians. 

Edited October 8, 2019 by II./JG77_Kemp

[Cybermat47]

15 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

I have not heard what Reichenau said

 

Then you should probably read my posts. 

 

I repeat:

 

“The most important objective of this campaign against the Jewish-Bolshevik system is the complete destruction of its sources of power and the extermination of the Asiatic influence in European civilization. In this eastern theatre, the soldier is not only a man fighting in accordance with the rules of the art of war, but also the ruthless standard bearer of a national conception and the avenger of bestialities which have been inflicted upon German and racially related nations. For this reason the soldier must learn fully to appreciate the necessity for the severe but just retribution that must be meted out to the subhuman species of Jewry. The Army has to aim at another purpose, i. e., the annihilation of revolts in hinterland which, as experience proves, have always been caused by Jews.”

- Feldmarschall Walther Von Reichenau, 6. Armee, October 10th 1941.

 

15 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

I have not heard what Reichenau said, but I know that Wehrmacht high command was not accused or found guilty of these things that you mention here. Hitler and Göring were hardcore nazis, everybody knows that, but that does not equal to Wehrmacht high command.

 

Göring commanded an entire branch of the Wehrmacht, the Luftwaffe. Hitler was the Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht. There was no-one higher than them.

 

15 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

Did you even read your link about this brothel network that you posted? Not a nice thing, but nothing there referred to long-term rape organized by Wehrmacht high command. In addition to that, try to compare this brothel system with the mass-raping that was carried out by Red Army, just to put things a little bit in perspective.

 

I did read it, and it said that the Wehrmacht took part without any repercussions for anyone who did. Which wouldn’t have happened if OKW hadn’t allowed it.

 

As for the Red Army rapes, what do they have to do with this? Mentioning them here is like mentioning the Holocaust in a discussion about the Red Army’s atrocities. It’s nothing but pointless whataboutism.

 

15 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

The fact is that, Wehrmacht high command was never found guilty or accused of killing Jewish children, so you might better stop spreading these lies.

 

Except that it’s a widely accepted historical fact that members of the Wehrmacht at all levels knowingly took part in the Holocaust. It’s been written about since at least Antony Beevor’s 1991 book Stalingrad. You seem to be basing your posts on the post-war phenomenon known by historians as “the Myth of the Clean Wehrmacht”.

Edited October 8, 2019 by [Pb]Cybermat47

[Aap]

24 minutes ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

Then you should probably read my posts.

 

I did not see anything in this post that indicates that Wehrmacht high command ordered killing of Jewish children or organized long-term rapes or women. Neither the bold nor normal text does not mention anything about Wehrmacht, high command, children, rape or women. So, if you are posting random quotes from random speeches of some high ranking officers, try not to invent stuff that is not there. Again, Wehrmacht high command was not found guilty or charged of ordering killing of Jewish children or organizing long-term rapes, so don't try to spread lies like they were guilty of these things.

 

24 minutes ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

Göring commanded an entire branch of the Wehrmacht, the Luftwaffe. Hitler was the Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht.

 

Göring was a Nazi. Hitler was a Nazi. Even if they were in command of Luftwaffe or Wehrmacht, it does not mean that Luftwaffe or Wehrmacht in general were guilty of things that Göring or Hilter decided or did. 

 

24 minutes ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

As for the Red Army rapes, what do they have to do with this?

 

I told, it helps you put things in perspective during a war. A brothel-network, where most of the prostitutes were probably volunteers and also got paid, compared to mass-raping of women. Not trying to justify forced prostitution in any way, but just to put things in perspective. Moreover, nothing in this link referred to Wehrmacht high command organizing long-term rapes. You are just trying to give false perception, as if Wehrmacht had some kind of specific policy about raping women or something like that.

 

24 minutes ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

Except that it’s a widely accepted historical fact that members of the Wehrmacht at all levels knowingly took part in the Holocaust.

 

Again, Wehrmacht high command was not found guilty of ordering killings of Jewish children. That is a clear fact, widely accepted or not. Some people might widely spread wild rumors of everything related to the word "Wehrmacht" being related to holocaust, but that should not be called a fact, but just creating false perception. What comes to your logic, it is also a known fact that members of all social classes have committed murders, but that does not mean that there is a government-ordered policy to commit murders, just like there was no Wehrmacht high command orders about killing Jewish children, like you claim.

Edited October 8, 2019 by II./JG77_Kemp