Tactical Air War

[FTC_Prancing]

i think it's way more powerful on the 2D screen then it is on VR, i'll try to prove this with some images when i'll have the time for it

[Polybymanus]

2 hours ago, E69_geramos109 said:

On TAW where the stats matter for a lot of people thanks to this we can have the worse experience ever. 

A lot of people with VR told me how they were able to see contacts on their base just after take off from more than 50km away. After a lot of talking and a lot of weird experiences about being intercepted I decided to see that by myself. 

Some VR users will complain afraid to lose their advantage over the rest but is funny to see them complaining about how bad they see in Vr while they tell how much enemies are taking off from whatever base to text to the side all info after that.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

It should be emphasized that you do not need to have VR to use 3DMigoto. This tool is utilized by many who do not even have any form of head-tracking, not even TrackIR. Regular pilots who use the hat-stick to look around rely very much on this tool as well. There is no doubt that it lets users take advantage of situations that they would otherwise be unprepared for with the standard zoom of the perceived "naked eye".

 

It is nice of you to touch upon this subject, and 3DMigoto's use as an exploit have been discussed since its introduction on the forums. But I am afraid you are only scratching the surface here, there is a wide range of tools and configurations to be made to the games files that can give players an extraordinary edge. Meanwhile the vast majority of the player-base is unaware of such things, they instead suffer from trivial matters such as trying to identify friend from foe at a 5km distance.

 

 

[WokeUpDead]

2 hours ago, =LG=Mad_Mikhael said:

Sometimes I'm able to spot planes at the base but not recognize what kind of planes are they since they appear only as white small dots. And it's hard to tell which direction they are flying or which exactly sector it is.

 

This has been my experience too. No mods or cheats or VR here, just an older computer that forces me to run things in below average settings. I can almost always spot planes on a base form 20 km away, usually from 30km, and in just the right conditions maybe from 40km. I can't tell what they are, but I can tell if they're big and slow or small and fast. It works fairly well for informing teammates but not so well for intercepts; at medium distance the dot becomes much less visible.

 

This is a consequence of visibility and spotting problems in the game in general. If everyone would be mostly satisfied with what they can see in the game then there wouldn't be so many people looking for 3rd party tools to improve spotting.

[SCG_Wulfe]

This is why I have been saying for a while that the Devs needed to add a higher VR zoom to the game.  At least to the level of screen users as a bare minimum. (Right now the in-game VR zoom doesn't even let you zoom as much as on monitor which adds a handicap on-top of a handicap)

 

What you are not getting from 2d monitor comparisons of zoom is that in VR you have a much lower apparent resolution and IDing is much harder than on a screen. Having flown both VR and monitor, I find that a 5x zoom in VR barely allows you to ID contacts enough to be remotely competitive compared to how you can ID on a screen.

 

10X might be a bit much, but 7-8X would probably be a nice, comparable zoom to level the playing field between monitor and VR players.  Devs need to just add this to the base game and block it for non-VR users. 

 

[LLv24_Zami]

5 minutes ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

This is why I have been saying for a while that the Devs needed to add a higher VR zoom to the game.  At least to the level of screen users as a bare minimum. (Right now the in-game VR zoom doesn't even let you zoom as much as on monitor which adds a handicap on-top of a handicap)

 

What you are not getting from 2d monitor comparisons of zoom is that in VR you have a much lower apparent resolution and IDing is much harder than on a screen. Having flown both VR and monitor, I find that a 5x zoom in VR barely allows you to ID contacts enough to be remotely competitive compared to how you can ID on a screen.

 

10X might be a bit much, but 7-8X would probably be a nice, comparable zoom to level the playing field between monitor and VR players.  Devs need to just add this to the base game and block it for non-VR users. 

 

Agreed, there should to be a compromise in the game settings that allows VR users to identify targets reasonably and be on the same level as the 2D players. 

[Mad_Mikhael]

19 minutes ago, WokeUpDead said:

 

This has been my experience too. No mods or cheats or VR here, just an older computer that forces me to run things in below average settings. I can almost always spot planes on a base form 20 km away, usually from 30km, and in just the right conditions maybe from 40km. I can't tell what they are, but I can tell if they're big and slow or small and fast. It works fairly well for informing teammates but not so well for intercepts; at medium distance the dot becomes much less visible.

(...)

Exactly this, but I'm playing with almost max graphics settings.

[Aero*Bohemio]

2 hours ago, LLv24_Zami said:

Look at this Chima, on this we all agree 

Yes, but unfortunately the bottom issue here, if we go beyond the shallow aspect of an exploit, is that people wouldn't be so desperate looking for all kind of tweaks or mods if they were able to spot a contact as they used to. Devs keep introducing features implemented in a terrible way...just like they did with MG151/20 HE rounds (now BFs and FWs aka "the panzerfaust launchers" "the flying 88mm flak") ? while there are severe bugs in some VVS guns as shown in many videos already posted; or like the weak implementation of G effects (before physiology turn capabilities of planes mattered, now they are almost inexistant)... and all together start to frustrate many and remove the fun they used to have.

***

Edited April 30, 2020 by 666GIAP_Chimango

[LLv24_Zami]

3 minutes ago, 666GIAP_Chimango said:

Yes, but unfortunately the bottom issue here, if we go beyond the shallow aspect of an exploit, is that people wouldn't be so desperate looking for all kind of tweaks or mods if they were able to spot a contact as they used to. Devs keep introducing features implemented in a terrible way...just like they did with MG151/20 HE rounds ? while there are severe bugs in some VVS guns as shown in many videos already posted... and all together start to frustrate many and remove the fun they used to have.

***

I was expecting this Chima, just wen`t right on the course ?

 

You`ve accused the devs, testers and the basically the whole world about the bias, conspiracy and God knows what over the times. Not doing their research on flight models, physics, DM models etc. You only know how the these things should be, no matter what the devs have shown for example. It kind of deteriorates your credibility.

[Aero*Bohemio]

Don't twist my words; is not what they research, is the way it's implemented. Never said devs are biased, they just are wrong sometimes. Testers? Oh yes, many bias in testers no doubt about it.

[LLv24_Zami]

1 minute ago, 666GIAP_Chimango said:

Don't twist my words; is not what they research, is the way it's implemented. Never said devs are biased, they just are wrong sometimes. Testers? Oh yes, many bias in testers no doubt about it.

Did I say that I`ve read these forums for a long time.

[KG200_Ikaros78]

I thought that 3dmigoto is a mod..

is TAW allow mods?

[CisTerDRock]

13 hours ago, LLv24_Zami said:

Is it only on the TAW server?

 

Yes, as far as I can tell.  I can go all night and not have it happen, then the next night I can't even join.

Could this be on my end? Possibly my connection?

 

[WokeUpDead]

11 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

The mod zooms on a portion of the picture. How to say it in your terms. Similar as if you move your nose closer to the screen. Do you understand now?

How is that not a zoom? I don’t get it. All zooms zoom in “on a portion of a picture,” whether mods or not. I’m not understanding something. 
 

Is the video that Germanos posted a video of this mod under discussion, or is it a fabrication?

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

7 minutes ago, WokeUpDead said:

I don’t get it. All zooms zoom in “on a portion of a picture,” whether mods or not. I’m not understanding something. 

Exactly, you weren't understanding something. The ingame zoom scales up the information given in the picture. It increases detail. So that additional objects appear, objects that have not been rendered as dots before. In that way, the ingame zoom for monitors is better. It increases the amount of information.

 

What some 2D monitor players do not understand is that this does not apply to the VR zoom. They assume it's the same in VR.

 

That's wrong.

 

4 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

Right on Geramos.  On that much we can agree.  The rest of your tirade smacks of juvenille whining.  The mod is available to all to use on any server I am aware of.  I'm sorry you don't like that.  Can you stop polluting threads now with this crap?  You appear to have made it your personal mission today to be the loudest in the bunch.  Good job.  We can all hear you loud and clear.

☝️ Listen to this man, before you embarrass yourself even more. 

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[FTC_Prancing]

Guys if he can't understand the difference between the in game zoom and migoto zoom about scaling and not scaling, the big TV example too, you never going to get anything keeping the discussion with him, hes too ignorant to understand or pretending to be stupid.

[WokeUpDead]

29 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Exactly, you weren't understanding something. The ingame zoom scales up the information given in the picture. It increases detail. So that additional objects appear, objects that have not been rendered as dots before. In that way, the ingame zoom for monitors is better. It increases the amount of information.

 

Thanks, that helps.

 

What about my other question about the videos on the previous page. Does the mod help you see planes you couldn't see like at 3:10 of Geramos' video? Does it help you clearly identify a 262 and other planes from a great distance like at 1:13:00 of Polybymanus' video?

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Finall some more serious post on it. Hence, a serious response: See, without zoom, you can identify aircrafts at 400m. Gunrange basically.

With zoom, you can identify them between 5km to 10km when they show their full wingspan to you. If they don't show that or are flying above you or below you on a forest, it's much harder. It depends on the light conditions on the map! If the sun is in your back, you see them blinking at range like on the monitor, and can differentiate between dual or single engine planes at even 15km, if the conditions are very good at 20km with the sun shining on them from behind you. It's similar as it is on the monitor, but my TV beats all by a big fat margin.

 

 

What you see on the videos is a video capture from the desktop scene mirror on ULQ (ultra low quality), not from within VR. You can do the same playing on in 2D with short rendering range and the native ingame zoom. You can put your settings to low or normal, and reduce landscape rendering distance to 20km. You'll see everything glowing through the fog.

 

I dare you to try it. But don't blame me for having eye cancer afterwards, I won't cover your bills.

 

If anything, you ought to ask the Devs to remove 20km rendering distance option, to get rid of the fog, and include a shader based zoom for VR players natively. This and the blurry landscape can be enabled by everyone, they are hardware agnostic...

 

An important aspect is, you need to see it in VR at normal details. Which you cannot, unless you have a VR headset and play a flight record. I know that's a shitty argument, but it is a true one. There's no way to capture a representation on a 2D video properly.

 

I have one question to you too: Would you believe me, that I could spot and ID much better on my 65" 4K LG C8, and also spot better on my secondary monitor which is a 1080p using the native game zoom? But still prefer VR because "you're there, sitting in the La-5"?

 

Because if you don't believe me, and have no way to check for yourself, what are you going to believe?

Edited May 1, 2020 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[Beazil]

14 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

 

Because if you don't believe me, and have no way to check for yourself, what are you going to believe?

 

Whatever reinforces my prior bias obviously!

[WokeUpDead]

18 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

I have one question to you too: Would you believe me, that I could spot and ID much better on my 65" 4K LG C8, and also spot better on my secondary monitor which is a 1080p using the native game zoom? But still prefer VR because "you're there, sitting in the La-5"?

 

Sure, I could believe that. Are you able to spot and ID on your 65" 4K LG C8 or on your secondary 1080p monitor better with or without the mod?

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

The VR zoom does not zoom in on objects. I spot zoomed out in VR only. You cannot swerve your head zoomed in, you'd puke.

 

With the native in-game zoom in 2D however, objects start appearing at range, that were out of rendering range before. Aircrafts also render with more detail with the ingame zoom, so it's easier to ID. IDing is by several magnitudes easier on the 65" 4K over anything else (over 1080p and VR w/ mod) using the ingame zoom. That is why I prefer the ingame zoom on the TV.

 

Spotting is probably easier on the 1080p than on the 4Ky sometimes harder. Depends on the conditions. Spotting overall is easiest in VR, but zoomed out only, and excluding your own six. That's because aircrafts have real size, their wingspan is 7m or more across. Zoomed out because you can't rotate while zoomed in, and checking your own six is very hard because you are not a giraffe/rythmic dancer.

 

We have some very capable pilots in SCG, for example Sinerox and Polo, both prefer monitors (1080p and a 4K) over VR, having both options. They value performance and competitiveness over anything. They use the ingame zoom. Riksen used a TV too, also ingame zoom. I think we know what we're talking about.

 

Did that suffice as an answer?

Edited May 1, 2020 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[WokeUpDead]

3 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Did that suffice as an answer?

 

Not really, so I decided to try the mod myself.

 

I'm flying along, I see a contact below! Let me zoom in to the max with the standard game zoom:

What do you think that is? Clearly one engine, maybe a Yak? A LaGG? A Mustang? (this screenshot is crappier than what I saw in game, but even with the clearer image in the game I was not able to ID the plane)

 

Let's use the mod zoom:

Oh look at that, it's an Emil! Sharply rendered against the forest are the square wings and the nice yellow nose of the 109-E. It looked even clearer and sharper in game than on this screenshot.

 

So the mod CLEARLY gives an ID advantage over the in-game zoom, at least on my monitor and settings. Being able to identify the aa truck in a column from a long distance was also nice. And this is with me not bothering to play with it or customize it at all, I just assigned a button for zoom and used it out of the box.

 

I'll grant that it doesn't give too much of a spotting edge when you don't know where the enemy might be; looking around zoomed out or with just a little bit of in-game zoom is probably still better. But being able to turn the propeller animation off certainly helps with forward spotting.

Edited May 1, 2020 by WokeUpDead
comment on screenshot quality

[KG200_Ikaros78]

So on TAW mods are on?of course not only this mod is out there i suppose..

pitty, i thought  it was an official enough campain server, not like wow and berloga..:)

[Coldman]

TAW Has mods off.

[LLv24_Zami]

2 hours ago, Ikaros78 said:

So on TAW mods are on?of course not only this mod is out there i suppose..

pitty, i thought  it was an official enough campain server, not like wow and berloga..:)

Zoom mod doesn't need mods on to work.

 

Edit: bit of a humour to lighten the athmosphere ?

Edited May 1, 2020 by LLv24_Zami

[FTC_Prancing]

5 hours ago, WokeUpDead said:

 

Not really, so I decided to try the mod myself.

 

I'm flying along, I see a contact below! Let me zoom in to the max with the standard game zoom:

What do you think that is? Clearly one engine, maybe a Yak? A LaGG? A Mustang? (this screenshot is crappier than what I saw in game, but even with the clearer image in the game I was not able to ID the plane)

 

Let's use the mod zoom:

Oh look at that, it's an Emil! Sharply rendered against the forest are the square wings and the nice yellow nose of the 109-E. It looked even clearer and sharper in game than on this screenshot.

 

So the mod CLEARLY gives an ID advantage over the in-game zoom, at least on my monitor and settings. Being able to identify the aa truck in a column from a long distance was also nice. And this is with me not bothering to play with it or customize it at all, I just assigned a button for zoom and used it out of the box.

 

I'll grant that it doesn't give too much of a spotting edge when you don't know where the enemy might be; looking around zoomed out or with just a little bit of in-game zoom is probably still better. But being able to turn the propeller animation off certainly helps with forward spotting.

can you do the same thing but give us images with same resolution?

Edited May 1, 2020 by Prancingkiller

[E69_geramos109]

5 minutes ago, Prancingkiller said:

can you do the same thing but give us images with same resolution?

Looks that you still want to negate the evident. Even with this clear example you still beliebe that people is going to ID the same without this mod. Amacing

[FTC_Prancing]

6 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Looks that you still want to negate the evident. Even with this clear example you still beliebe that people is going to ID the same without this mod. Amacing

with z , amazing,  and i still really think that on screen that's waaay better then in vr

cool that you already changed your statement, now you poiting the finger to IDing targets instead of spotting?

Edited May 1, 2020 by Prancingkiller

[E69_geramos109]

3 minutes ago, Prancingkiller said:

with z , amazing,  and i still really think that on screen that's waaay better then in vr

Without zoom sure. Once you are using the zoom monitor is far worse. The mod is not just making zoom. Is kind of blurring the terrain as well so you can see the contact better not just bigger. 

[FTC_Kongoo]

2 hours ago, Prancingkiller said:

with z , amazing,  and i still really think that on screen that's waaay better then in vr

cool that you already changed your statement, now you poiting the finger to IDing targets instead of spotting?

Prancing. I´m going to call you out here. What was the impression that you shared with me on how the mod mostly helps? 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

2 hours ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Without zoom sure. Once you are using the zoom monitor is far worse. The mod is not just making zoom. Is kind of blurring the terrain as well so you can see the contact better not just bigger. 

It doesn't blur the terrain. Lying still?

 

@ACG_Vietkong  It helps VR users to ID, that's what he said. Many imprecisely mix up the terms spotting and IDing while speaking. Don't worry, it won't work for Monitor users after the next patch anymore. I'm certain Lefuneste will make sure to not update it for them. It needs to be recompiled after most game updates. So by then, only VR users can use it.

 

Again, for the slow pokes: It does not help spotting. It does not change graphics. It levels the playing field for VR players to ID planes like a monitor player can. What you see on the scene mirror on desktop is not comparable to what you see in VR. You must be inside a VR headset to be able to compare it.

Edited May 1, 2020 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[FTC_Kongoo]

4 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

It doesn't blur the terrain. Lying still?

 

@ACG_Vietkong  It helps VR users to ID, that's what he said. Many imprecisely mix up the terms spotting and IDing while speaking. Don't worry, it won't work for Monitor users after the next patch anymore. I'm certain Lefuneste will make sure to not update it for them. It needs to be recompiled after most game updates. So by then, only VR users can use it.

 

Again, for the slow pokes: It does not help spotting. It does not change graphics. It levels the playing field for VR players to ID planes like a monitor player can. What you see on the scene mirror on desktop is not comparable to what you see in VR. You must be inside a VR headset to be able to compare it.

Cool Fenris but you are avoiding the elephant in the room. Who has the tactical advantage if you can figure out who´s who in the zoo before your enemy can? This advantage is ridiculous.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

My 65" 4K OLED LG C8 is better at IDing than the VR headset with the zoom.

 

Want to ban the 65" too?

 

 

You know what. Brutal honesty: Upgrade your 1080p potato monitor. How old is that? 10 years?

Edited May 1, 2020 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[E69_geramos109]

5 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

It doesn't blur the terrain. Lying still?

 

@ACG_Vietkong  It helps VR users to ID, that's what he said. Many imprecisely mix up the terms spotting and IDing while speaking. Don't worry, it won't work for Monitor users after the next patch anymore. I'm certain Lefuneste will make sure to not update it for them. It needs to be recompiled after most game updates. So by then, only VR users can use it.

 

Again, for the slow pokes: It does not help spotting. It does not change graphics. It levels the playing field for VR players to ID planes like a monitor player can. What you see on the scene mirror on desktop is not comparable to what you see in VR. You must be inside a VR headset to be able to compare it.

When using the mod you are making zoom bt there is nor re-escaling for the terrain becuase the game is not design for defining the terrain that zoomed so yes. When you are without the zoom the terrain looks way more defined because you are perciebing this low resolution part from far so you can not notice that. When using the mod the terrain now is the same that when you are not using it so everything is blurred except the contact. 

 

[E69_Kar]

24 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Again, for the slow pokes: It does not help spotting. It does not change graphics. It levels the playing field for VR players to ID planes like a monitor player can. What you see on the scene mirror on desktop is not comparable to what you see in VR. You must be inside a VR headset to be able to compare it.

 

I have mates in the squad using the  3DMigoto mod  with Hp Reverb googles who can spot planes at 40km and they see it close to the Geramos video, and WokeupDead captures shows, but it seems that everybody who contradicts you is lying.

 

Guys,  I invite you to install the mod and see it by yourselves.

 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Edit: 

There is a complaint section with a thread.

 

The TAW thread is for topics relating to the TAW server in particular. I see you guys have posted in the complaint section as well already, so best to stick to it there and not pollute the TAW thread any further.

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[E69_Kar]

8 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Reverb is a 4K VR headset. The only one on the market right now. He'll spot way superior to whatever you have with or without the zoom, whether you like it or not.

 

He can't spot more than you if you have the same device. The zoom is agnostic to that. Your screen presents the same details if you have an at least 50" 4K. A flicker is a flicker.

 

What is your monitor?

 

Potato monitor ; )

 

[LLv24_StableAce_VR]

Remember to BAN Track IR users also, their owl necks are op compared to VR! 
Also remove ZOOM altogether, no pilot had binoculars on board

?

Happy May Day to all ❤

[Cathaoir]

So now it is VR vs Monitor...Why...not everyone can afford a rig that can run VR let alone the cost. Just let it go guys.....and enjoy the game with what you/they can afford....Just my opinion for what it's worth.

[JG1_Wittmann]

I don't see what the point of the thread is in relation to the Title.   It has provided many with the opportunity to see what it is all about.   Helps out with Id'ng  AC,  for sure.   Now that it can be used for 2d monitor users,   just download it and use it.   Complaining about something being a cheat, that you have available,  and makes alot of the visuals in the game more realistic,  which are currently lacking,   is not a cheat.  It's improving visuals in the game and allowing people to enjoy it.   At this point,  monitor users can see some of the advantges  VR  users may/may not have had, depending on who you ask.   I have flown with VR users that have been able  to ID AC  when I could not.  

 

I used to live  just N of an AF that  had alot of warbirds WW2  flying out of at times.  I'd hear the big pratt and whitney radials, and I would go out on my deck.    I didn't need  binoculars/zoom  to id these AC  from a mile or more away standing on my deck.  So to say  the game visuals are realistic,  is  totally  incorrect.   Now in game,    I can't ID anything   at that distance positively.   My idea is that now that it has been seen,  removal of this from the 2d users will  cause this game  to suffer.    Being able to ID an AC,  at a range much farther than your opponent can ID you,  is  the biggest advantage anyone can have.  It should be available to all,  or available to none.   My opinion on is that it makes  the game much more playable and level.  

.

[ITAF_Maven65]

Please block this silly migoto superman-sight or the il2 online community will die. This way will not be a sim any more, but just a bimbominchia-game