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6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

Why not have a proper, historical, fun Tutorial instead of Tanks? (With Po-2 and SG-38) ((and maybe teach people Navigation?))

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I tested that a while ago and while to some 2-seaters in RoF can be used as trainers (even though the gunner has terrible forward vision and NO controlls whatsoever) their flight characteristics are a bit different. Also, at least in my squadrom, many don't want to download and install a second sim ONLY for general training purpose.

 

I really hope(d) a trainer aircraft with tandem controlls, whatever it might be , would come to BoS some day.  While not nessecarily being a glider (which would require a towing aircraft and not teach engine management) sth like a Po-2, I-16 UTI, Bücker 131 Jungmann, Bü-181 Bestmann or Bf-108 Taifun would be perfectly suited for the job.

 

It's pretty obvious why trainers are important to teach new people that come form different games or have 0 expirience. There's no better way to teach somebody VFR navigation or engine management (not to mention combat manouvres) than doing it with him sitting "side by side" and let him see every step you make. While we expirienced simmers and closed Alpha/Beta Veterans may know a lot about BoS and it's aircrafts for some it's still a big mystery.

 

Whatever they do, the developers need to introduce and attract new and advance people to this game.

 

Would be cool if Henschel Hs-123 for german and a Polikarpov I-15 (Chaika) for russians, FREE intro planes into the game with the Rise of Flight approach.

aer00-hs123.gif

Henschel Hs-123

 

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To me, one aspect I enjoyed in CLoD were the Tigermoth training missions. Flying on the New Wings training server I saw these. I assume they're in the mission editor but I've never looked. If someone could make a series of tutorials, these could make the same great training tool for BoS as they are CLoD and DCS. I don't think many would want to spend hours on a glider however cool it is in real life. The dedication isn't there and really, neither is the reward for success or the penalty for failure.

 

2015_8_29__11_36_52_zpsmf2dhbqa.png

Edited by Rjel
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I'm part of the "new" generation of simers, I'm 19, and had quite some theory when arriving on BoS. It's really hard when you start ! Taking off, and even more difficult, landing is a real stop I think to lots of new people that would want to try it out. I agree with most of you, a tutorial would be great, but gliders... when you can have a bf 109 ? Well choice is done...

 

I learnt a lot by myself, watching Requiem's videos on Youtube, and reading Chuck's guides. I can take off, land (quite) properly, but once in the air, I'm horrible at aiming, and I have over 100h of flying, but it takes a lot of pratcise, especially when you're on your own ! For much people, spending 100h just to get the basics isn't fun enough, even if ounce you know how to fly, it's better then any other game !

 

Do you think it could be possible to create a sort of "school" ? A mentor, or teacher and a student ? You go on Skype/TS and fly together, learn basics, engine management, dogfight ? I'd love to have someone to train me like that ! :D

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I'm part of the "new" generation of simers, I'm 19, and had quite some theory when arriving on BoS. It's really hard when you start ! Taking off, and even more difficult, landing is a real stop I think to lots of new people that would want to try it out. I agree with most of you, a tutorial would be great, but gliders... when you can have a bf 109 ? Well choice is done...

 

I learnt a lot by myself, watching Requiem's videos on Youtube, and reading Chuck's guides. I can take off, land (quite) properly, but once in the air, I'm horrible at aiming, and I have over 100h of flying, but it takes a lot of pratcise, especially when you're on your own ! For much people, spending 100h just to get the basics isn't fun enough, even if ounce you know how to fly, it's better then any other game !

 

Do you think it could be possible to create a sort of "school" ? A mentor, or teacher and a student ? You go on Skype/TS and fly together, learn basics, engine management, dogfight ? I'd love to have someone to train me like that ! :D

if we had a 2 seater with tandem contols I'm sure a lot of pilots would like to be instructors

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if we had a 2 seater with tandem contols I'm sure a lot of pilots would like to be instructors

 

At the level of skills I am today, what I need more, is dogfight, aiming, targetting training :) The two seater is for the real beginning :) I think we have to think the whole thing threw, not just the beginning :)

 

But I agree with you :)

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This really needs to stop being an either/or proposition. The devs created the tanks regardless and prioritizing art department resources doesn't meant that resources get taken away from other places - if it keeps their employees busy and more importantly they have secure and stable employment then that's what matters to both 1CGS and to the continuation of the series.

 

It really sounds like LOFT is trying to tell people that this is a fun side project for them but they are still focused on aviation as core to the experience. He's also right in that it would be incredible to really be fighting for those guys on the ground as most Eastern Front battles are centered around tactical operation.

 

Training aircraft and missions is another subject matter separate and independent from tanks. IMHO, the poster who said "Why fly a glider when I can learn on a 109" is absolutely right. Not too many players are going to go the route of trainer and then graduate to the bigger planes. IF some of you want some light aircraft or something off from the regular combat aircraft then lets just say so. I know some people want transports ... some want some kind of recon aircraft (Fw189?) and some want some of the army co-op types like the Po-2. I'm ok with that. Let's just ask for them. But also remember that these are niche types - most people are still going to be flying 109s and Yaks.

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Are there gonna be gliding tanks ? You know, if there is a tutorial, it could be cool to learn first on gliding tanks, no ?  :P

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Are there gonna be gliding tanks ? You know, if there is a tutorial, it could be cool to learn first on gliding tanks, no ?  :P

 

That could be fun :D :D

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While it would be cool to have two seat A/C depicted in the game, it doesn't really need to be that complicated. It it were just possible to have an instructor pilot riding with you, then that would accomplish the same goal. Granted I know nothing of the programming part but it wouldn't seem to be more difficult than creating a multi-place airplane. It would speed up getting a training portion into the game.

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On a short term basis I think people can get by with flying in an instructor-student pair for non-ultra basic training purposes. In the old Il-2 people got by with that for over a decade and it worked quite well.

 

The thing is, for correction purposes and whatnot it's actually better to be outside of the aircraft than sitting in it. An instructor can see the results from a borked bombing run by sitting near the target for example, and they can also watch a messy landing in the making the same way. Of course, you have no access to the readings and all but that can be verified either with a track or asking the student to call out several different instrument readings over the radio while landing - which also teaches them to multitask well.

 

Navigation, T/O and landing, shooting plus 1x1 and group combat are easily taught from the outside.

 

Many pilots learned the true tools of their trade in the front, so we can do the same too.

 

That being said I'm sure we'll see some cool trainer/utility aircraft eventually and I'd love to put them to work.

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I thought this thread was about attcrating kids with 0 flight knowledge. You can't expect gamers to swich from FPS and tell them to read hundreds of pages and invest hundreds of frustrating hours flying patterns. There lots of stuff on youtube - maybe one could make a blog and at least get them interested in flying? 


Something like this?

 

How Airplanes Fly 1968 FAA Basic Aerodynamics; Flight Training, Pilot Training
How Does A Wing Actually Work?
Airflow during a stall.
Stalling for Safety - FAA video Private/Instrument/Commercial Pilot training 1976
Accelerated Stalls
C172 Spin recovery training (FULL HD)
Cessna 172 Spin Recovery Training (Full HD w/ audio)
Power on stall develops into a spin
Pilot get's plane in a flat spin, crash lands
Do or Die Deadstick (1946 Aeronca Champ)
RV-12 Dead Stick Landing
2014 Precious Metal Deadstick after engine failure
Boeing PT 17 Groundloop
T6 HARVARD GROUND LOOP
Taildraggers vs. Tricycle gear
Adverse Yaw, a Stick and Rudder Fundamental
Learn to Turn
Icing for General Aviation Pilots
Top 5 Mistakes Pilots Make (2008)
How to Land a Plane
Stabilized Approaches
How to Trim an Airplane [HD]
Power Off 180° Accuracy Approach & Landing
Timing Your Flare
Best Cessna 172 Landing
Landing an Airplane
(VIDEO 1)Normal Approach and Landing
(VIDEO 2) Normal Approach and Landing
Flaps explained
How aircraft flaps work
How It Works Flight Controls
Aerodynamics: Airfoil Camber, Flaps, Slots-Slats & Drag: "Smoke Lifts" circa 1938 NACA Langley
Bernoulli's Principle: Demonstrated. INCREDIBLE!!!
Civil Aviation : Using the Rudder on an Airplane
How to Fly an Airplane : How to Land an Airplane
Private Pilot Airplane - Flight Instruments - ASA (Aviation Supplies & Academics)
How to plan a flight
2 Private Pilot Training DVD1 3 Flight Instruments
4 Private Pilot Training DVD1 4 Four Forces of Flight
6 Private Pilot Training DVD1 6 Aerodynamics of Maneuvering Flight
5 Private Pilot Training DVD1 5 Stability
1 Private Pilot Training DVD1 1 Airplanes
3 Private Pilot Training DVD1 2 The Powerplant and Related Systems

I know it's pretty random...

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Scores of material there, thanks for sharing!

 

I think no player - young or not - with zero knowledge will sit with someone else bossing them around either if they don't want to check basic resources. Fact is, simpler simulations like WT or the aircraft in Battlefield, ARMA and so on can still give them a basic idea of how flight works. After they've spent over $100 on Il-2 and the simplest of sticks, they probably already know the basics.

 

Probably the best way to get them proficient in an advanced flight model without downloading RoF or DCS is those single player (or the stuff in servers like New Wings as shown here) training missions where they have instructions on how to perform whatever they are practicing in the briefing plus visual assists of any kind (on-screen notes, big green arrows and such). Tracks showing how it's done properly help too.

 

These are easily accessible to anyone, and without the commitment to an instructor.

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gliders, seriously?

Why not? Gliders simply make the better Pilots.

Have you seen people land in MP?

 

Reasons for Gliders:

 

1. Glider Pilots only get 1 chance to land each flight, on a single center wheel, so they have to coordinate bank, roll and pitch throughout the entire process of landing the aircraft, lest you want a wingtip to touch the ground while still at speed, thus damaging your aircraft.

Landing Speeds are mostly between 70-90kph.

 

2. Gliders don't have engines, thus flying is cleaner. One thing less to worry about.

 

3. As you have no engine, Outlandings are always an option, thus you have to be far more aware of your surroundings and decide where to do it.

You also have to always keep in mind how far you get with the altitude you have, which speed you glide best at etc.

Put simply, you are far better at handling Emergency Situations

 

4. Almost all Gliders, even these very old ones, where allowed to perform aerobatics. Thus a glider pilot learns how to enter and exit spiral dives, Loopings, Barrel Rolls and all the other essentials you will not learn on trainer aircraft of the period.

 

5. Aerotow teaches you a bit about flying and behaviour in Formation, where to keep friendly aircraft etc.

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Tracks are a great idea but they are lager files than youtube videos. Maybe If the Devs would make a sticky thread containg tracks - for basic flight, combat and planes?


Why not? Gliders simply make the better Pilots.

Have you seen people land in MP?

 

Reasons for Gliders:

 

1. Glider Pilots only get 1 chance to land each flight, on a single center wheel, so they have to coordinate bank, roll and pitch throughout the entire process of landing the aircraft, lest you want a wingtip to touch the ground while still at speed, thus damaging your aircraft.

Landing Speeds are mostly between 70-90kph.

 

2. Gliders don't have engines, thus flying is cleaner. One thing less to worry about.

 

3. As you have no engine, Outlandings are always an option, thus you have to be far more aware of your surroundings and decide where to do it.

You also have to always keep in mind how far you get with the altitude you have, which speed you glide best at etc.

Put simply, you are far better at handling Emergency Situations

 

4. Almost all Gliders, even these very old ones, where allowed to perform aerobatics. Thus a glider pilot learns how to enter and exit spiral dives, Loopings, Barrel Rolls and all the other essentials you will not learn on trainer aircraft of the period.

 

5. Aerotow teaches you a bit about flying and behaviour in Formation, where to keep friendly aircraft etc.

I usually train dead stick landings. It helps to cut on downwind :)

 

Edited by indiaciki

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Tracks are a great idea but they are lager files than youtube videos. Maybe If the Devs would make a sticky thread containg tracks - for basic flight, combat and planes

That's what I had in mind - most simulators since 2001 had them in one way or another, so it's possible to create that. Alternatively the devs or the community could create some video resources and those could be linked to from the manual and etc.

 

If they come in the game itself it's easier though because then users can change the view around to see how things work from all angles.

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You're right. We could post then on mediafire or any other site and put the in the forum like some kind of flight school sticky thread. Fourspeed tought me R.E.8 aerobatics by sending tracks. It works.

Edited by indiaciki
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if we had a 2 seater with tandem contols I'm sure a lot of pilots would like to be instructors

 

 

Suggestion: as CloD have this plane (DH-82) and is almost free, why don't do a test with his trainer to see if this kind of plane really result in teach newbies the "basic of flight"? ;)

 

In il-2'46 a guy did a very good training campaign (I use to teach a nephew) "Straight to the Farm" - the student start with DBD Dauntless, a easy to fly plane that have all "CEM" functions (prop, mixture...) animated, and making progress end flying from CV's. 

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The CloD's Tiger Moth uses a simplyfied FM + that ganes uses different physics. It's barely worth suggesting it. We need sth for BoS. That's the only real deal.

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If people want a trainer for BoS why not download RoF Free Version?

 

1) It is free

2) Based on the same engine as BoS, so "feel of flight" is similar as well as many of the view mechanics etc, so the habits learned are almost all transferable between games.

3) The planes are much easier to fly than anything in BoS since the workload is much lower - no flaps, retractable gear, trim: the essentials of engine management is necessary but simpler.

4) Because of 3 above, the new pilot learns more about how the plane flies with less time spent worrying about technical systems details. 

5) Since teh RoF planes have much less excess power the pilot gets a good feel for the energy state of his plane. 

6) The "Fly Now" missions are excellent for training.

7) Did I mention that it is free?

 

I am convinced that starting in a lower powered biplane is much better way to learn to fly than jumping into a 109 or a Yak. I would love to see a couple in BoS, but since they are there in RoF why not take advantage?

 

(While I understand the OP's respect for the virtues of gliders, I can see why this might be unpopular.)

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If people want a trainer for BoS why not download RoF Free Version?

 

1) It is free

2) Based on the same engine as BoS, so "feel of flight" is similar as well as many of the view mechanics etc, so the habits learned are almost all transferable between games.

3) The planes are much easier to fly than anything in BoS since the workload is much lower - no flaps, retractable gear, trim: the essentials of engine management is necessary but simpler.

4) Because of 3 above, the new pilot learns more about how the plane flies with less time spent worrying about technical systems details. 

5) Since teh RoF planes have much less excess power the pilot gets a good feel for the energy state of his plane. 

6) The "Fly Now" missions are excellent for training.

7) Did I mention that it is free?

 

I am convinced that starting in a lower powered biplane is much better way to learn to fly than jumping into a 109 or a Yak. I would love to see a couple in BoS, but since they are there in RoF why not take advantage?

 

(While I understand the OP's respect for the virtues of gliders, I can see why this might be unpopular.)

In the end all I want is Tutorial with a period correct, low and slow trainer. Gliders would be the best, but Biplanes, and two seater fighters work just as well.

Having a seperate game for that is just stupid.

Edited by Klaus_Mann

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If people want a trainer for BoS why not download RoF Free Version?

 

1) It is free

2) Based on the same engine as BoS, so "feel of flight" is similar as well as many of the view mechanics etc, so the habits learned are almost all transferable between games.

3) The planes are much easier to fly than anything in BoS since the workload is much lower - no flaps, retractable gear, trim: the essentials of engine management is necessary but simpler.

4) Because of 3 above, the new pilot learns more about how the plane flies with less time spent worrying about technical systems details. 

5) Since teh RoF planes have much less excess power the pilot gets a good feel for the energy state of his plane. 

6) The "Fly Now" missions are excellent for training.

7) Did I mention that it is free?

1) No, you need sby with a 2-seater which in return costs money (at least for the instructor)

2) The physic engine is similar indeed. RoF biplanes feel a lot different though. It's difficult to draw a comparison between a slow, sluggish Bristol and a lightweight, sensetive Bf109 and does not serve the purpose of training well

3) Another big issue. Students need to be taeched about all aspects of the new plane. How do you teach sby proper landing procedure in a Bf109 with a rudimentary biplane?

4) See answer 3. Technical details is a big point that turns people off BoS (I know quite some). It's important to teach them all technical details they need to savely operate the airplane.

5) Uhm...well. Don't think so. In RoF you're flying planes with air resisdence values compareable to brick walls, in BoS streamlined high performance fighters. Just compare glide ratios and judge for yourself.

6) Indeed

7) See 1

 

Also pls mind that many people don't want to dowload a whole different game just for (limited) basic training purpose (due to slow internet connection for example). For a efficient training program we need a trainer in BoS.

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Blimey - if what you say is true there, 5tuka, no-one could ever have learned anything from flying a Gypsy Moth or a glider before transitioning onto more powerful types. You know, how actual air forces teach people to fly, just as you would learn to race a go-cart before trying out an F1 racing car.  Learn to walk before you try to run? I strongly disagree with your points 1-5.

 

Personally I would also be happy to see a trainer in BoS, I agree that is the best option - but this would also probably be a fixed gear biplane, little if any more powerful than WW1 aircraft, with similar handling characteristics.

 

Given that we do not have one, I am simply pointing out that anyone can learn to fly using RoF - for free - and they can then worry about the extra power and complexity of WW2 fighters after they have a basic understanding of what their aeroplane is doing. They would become a much better pilot learning this way rather than jumping into a 1,000+HP plane and crashing it - over and over again.....

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Yea I know how training worked in WW2. Pilots had to move on from primitive types like the PT-13 "Stearman" and Bü-131 "Jungman" on advaced traiiners like the AT-6 Texan and Bf-108 Taifun. There was a good reason for that and why combat training was primarily performed with those types.

 

I'm not saying a biplane is incapeable of teaching the basics. Infact even the biplanes of the 30s were way more advanced than WW1 ones.

 

Just saying you can not train a rooky on a Bristol FB II and throw him into the cold water of flying a Yak-1 the next day.

 

Also there's still 2 unadressed issues:

- nessecety to download and install a second game

- no tandem controlls

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There is absolutely no need for a trainer in a flight sim.  Watch a video or read a book to learn the basics.  Then jump in a 109 or Yak and practice.  

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Just saying you can not train a rooky on a Bristol FB II and throw him into the cold water of flying a Yak-1 the next day.

 

You have to keep in mind how rudimentary pilot training was back in desperate days though. Take Soviet fight pilots graduating in late 1941 and 1942 for example - while many received basic pilot training on the U-2, some would go as far as some UTI-4 time but that was that. There were not enough unconverted Yak-7s to go around, and no time for proper combat training, which is partially why there were so many problems in the beginning of the war in operating high-performance fighters like the abundant MiG-3 after being used to Ishaks and Chaikas.

 

It was really common to have pilots with less than 10 hours on combat aircraft thrown into the fray, leaving the pair leader to teach them the art of combat and keep them alive. I'm no expert in the subject of course, and I could be wrong, but most that I have read shows that the efficient part of the Soviet air force back in the day was promoted by experienced pilots plus rookies-turned-aces under their wing.

 

From most sources, the experienced guys would fly the tough missions, then only when an easy assignment would show up the 'oldies' flew as element leaders with a rookie each on their wing, or sometimes mixing in one rookie in a flight of 7 veterans, for example. The greenhorns were instructed to fly glued to their leader's tail and be ready at all times - after the mission was over, the leaders asked them: "what did you see?" That way they could evaluate the SA of the pilots, and work on what aspects they are missing and such. Gradually over the course of these missions the rookies became veterans and started flying tougher missions, new pilots came in and the cycle went on.

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Historically...new pilots had a lot to learn and hopefully garnered as much training in a fighter aircraft as possible prior to being stationed at the front.  As the war progressed..especially for the Luftwaffe....adequate training became less and less an option, and the skill levels dropped significantly. I understand where you're coming from Jirokoh, and maybe you can hookup with a friend on one of the online arenas for some one on one.  I'm going to re-enlist in a squadron to hone my skills as well and this might be an option for you to consider.  It's easy to get frustrated, but flying with a human element, with comms....can take the edge off the learning curve quite a bit and at the same time, give you the cover you need to fly historically...online.  In addition, you might find that your joystick...settings, etc...can be tweaked to increase your gunnery skills.  Best of luck....

NOW where are those tanks?

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Regarding the 'download RoF to learn to fly' suggestion, I must admit I'm sceptical. Of the three free aircraft, only the Albatros D.Va is a practical proposition - the Spad 13 has an abysmal forward view, and the Nieuport 17 is a pain to land due to its groundlooping habits. And then there is the issue that RoF doesn't have runways - instead, there are airfields which permit (wind and obstructions permitting) landing in any direction. Fine if you want to learn how to fly WW1 aircraft, but not much use for learning a proper runway approach. And how exactly is learning in an Albatros better than picking the easiest BoS aircraft instead? My advice to anyone wanting to learn the basics for BoS would by to start with the Il-2. I don't think it is any harder to fly than the Albatros (at least if you start with 'normal' settings), and what you learn with it is much more relevant to the end objective. If the developers ever come up with a two-seat trainer permitting online training, and people are prepared to put in the effort of training newcomers who want to go down that route, fine - but what we actually need now is something we can point the inexperienced to that gets them on the right path. Or possibly, a couple of different options: proper training missions for those prepared to put in the effort, and a quick and dirty guide to the basics of getting off the ground and down again in one piece for the impatient. The latter is of course 'wrong' if you start with the premise that people need to emulate reality, but it is probably as much as the noobs described in the original post - the ones who go online without knowing how to start the engine - are going to be prepared to work with. 

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There is absolutely no need for a trainer in a flight sim.  Watch a video or read a book to learn the basics.  Then jump in a 109 or Yak and practice.  

I actually like how IL2 and IL2:FB handled training video/tutorials. There was a movie explaining certain parameters or maneuvers and when finished the sim pilot pressed a button to take control of the airplane so he could practice what was discussed in the training movie. Each subsequent movie would add on to the already learned discipline.

 

RoF's training was cumbersome (mostly because I thought the movies were tedious) but effective.

 

 

The online book, "IN PURSUIT" is a great resource to learn CFM and disciplines. The writer places you into the head of a virtual pilot so you can learn what to expect and what to use in falling an enemy foe. Well worth the download.

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Want training missions? With little tiny underpowered planes? Purchase Rise of Flight. Get the base game for less than $20 with several planes that will do far more than this extra nonsense that is absolutely unnecessary.

 

Why go with adding extra planes that a) do nothing towards the product. b) Cost development wise which no one will be paying for. c) Can already be done by getting RoF.

 

There have been two total games so far that have had extra planes to "learn" to fly - one was an abysmal turd. The other one was a mod off of Targetware that isn't around anymore.

 

There's a reason there are beginner servers.

 

You all want the devs to waste time on training flights? "Oh no, the tanks!" So many were so ecstatic to hear that the other one was going to have controllable tanks.

 

I don't care about tanks, but usable trainers are even more pointless. I've actually trained players in previous massive multiplayer sims. WarBirds, AcesHigh, RedBaron II/3D, and even the old Il-2 series. They gain nothing from the simple trainers because they jump directly from a simple trainer to a far more advanced machine with no intermediary. And no, there is no gain from modelling any of those.

 

With a little unarmed trainer they gain the ability to start the engine, take off and fly circuits. That's it. Maybe all of you championing this want that, but those players will be gone very fast. They won't even stick around for a second try online because they just got waxed so easily.

 

No, what needs to happen is they need to play single player. They need to get adept at air combat. They'll have a far better chance than just going "I took off in a little trainer, I'm ready for the big leagues!"

 

There are no single player training sessions that will teach anyone that.

 

There's also a very popular WWII MMO game that introduced tanks. It didn't hurt the player base at all. It actually helped, but it initially had the same complaining. Complaining about the tanks and trying to redirect it to get "trainers" is silly. One, those are even more a waste of time. Two, tanks may actually aid in purchases which overall aid in getting more finance to develop the entire title further.

Edited by FuriousMeow
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On a lighter note... :)

 

For sale: under-powered plane you can use for training - spacious cockpit, can fit two people; slightly used, in good condition; climbs faster than T-34, can compete with Kübelwagen uphill; dives great, falls even better; purchases done before Christmas receive two extra parachutes free of charge!

 

Product photo:

 

P-40_Warhawk__au_full.jpg

 

 

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There is absolutely no need for a trainer in a flight sim.  Watch a video or read a book to learn the basics.  Then jump in a 109 or Yak and practice.  

 

It is. Because of kids that have never flown a plane other than these:

 

 

That's flying for casual gamers. We're dinosaurs.

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It is. Because of kids that have never flown a plane other than these:

 

 

That's flying for casual gamers. We're dinosaurs.

 

No, it isn't.  The only reason to have trainers is to prevent new pilots from killing themselves and/or destroying combat aircraft.  That isn't a problem in a computer sim.

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OK. Solution: Do a Ju-52 with dual controls, so he became useful as primary trainer, navigation trainer... and a dozen and half can fly as "transport" (of "what if").  :lol:

 

"Two birds with one stone". ;)

Edited by Sokol1
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