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6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

Why not have a proper, historical, fun Tutorial instead of Tanks? (With Po-2 and SG-38) ((and maybe teach people Navigation?))

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All of this would be fun those flying successfully already, and just want some simple, civil, stress-free flying inbetween.

 

Especially on the MP Servers there is a bunch of people that don't know their heads from their a**es in any airplane and expect us to explain to them.

What I would love to implement therefore is a Tutorial based on the primary german and russian training aircraft.

 

 

 

 

1. German Pilot Training (SG-38, Grunau Baby, Habicht 8m, Bücker Bü-131)

 

German Primary training was accomplished using mostly the SG-38 (ger.: Schulgleiter 1938) which is basically a flying Gardenchair, launched by a rubber rope by 30 people.

Furhter Training was done on more capable gliders like the Habicht 8m or Bückers 131 Bestmann

 Here's a little taster on what this looks like. I'm actually going there myself next year to fly the SG-38. It's an event for clubs from all over the world visiting it and flying the SG-38 the traditional way.

 

 

And a couple of maybes:

The Grunau Baby is a basic flight trainer in which you will, by using thermals and ridgesoaring get actual flights, not just 30 second jumps as in the SG-38.

The Habicht 8m is an aerobatics trainer with high wingloading to get you used to Fighter aircraft.

The Bücker Bü-131 "Jungmann" is a trainer to get you used to Navigation and powered flight.

The Arado 96 was the Advanced trainer, used for gunnery and bombing training and night time navigation

 

I think the game needs this, especially multiplayer. Gliders should generally be easier to model since there's no engine, however the weather simulation would have to advance.  RoF should however serve well as a reference for for all of these aircraft.

 

Grunau Baby

 

 

grunau-baby-2b-d1018-baujahr-66694.jpg

 

 

 

Bücker 131

 

 

oe-afs-private-bcker-b-131-jungmann_Plan

 

 

Soviet Pilot Training (Po-2, I-16 UTI)

 

 

The first flight most russian aviators would have had in WWII would have been in a Po-2 in which they would acquire all necessary skills to operate an aircaft or that era, including simple flight, navigation, bombing and night flying.

The I-16 UTI was the Advanced trainer for gunnery training and aerobatics training.

 

 

 

6955895545_39364ebdc6_b.jpg

 

 

PS: in my head I actually enivion a Gliding Sim based on the Il-2; RoF engine.

Edited by Klaus_Mann
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+10000!
 

We wouldn't be able to use a glider in SP or MP, so I think a simple Po-2 would suffice for a short flight tutorial. They were very active over Stalingrad dropping bombs to vodka. It would be good for this game because as mentioned in MP, people have their heads in their a**es trying to attempt a downwind landing without knowing it's not the best idea, then come on the forums to say CloD has better FM's.

 

Tanks would be toxic to the community and the IL-2 name. So many people I know who play War Thunder are thinking IL-2 is going to become a tank simulator. I swear I never want to see the day. Go look at the WT forums and see how they complain, it's disgusting.

I remember people were saying how good War Thunder was until tanks arrived and all the focus went to the tanks, even though the developers said they were still putting more focus on aircraft.. Yeah that changed in a hurry.

 

IL-2 == Flight Simulator.

 

I'd rather have an Italian map vs tanks.

Edited by Y-29.Silky

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Dear friends, it looks like the tanks announce caused too much fuss. Please don't imagine anything redundant. We don't make a killer of popular MMO tank games (we don't know how to do it and our game is about completely different things), we work in different genres and for different playbases. Don't imagine anything impossible so you won't be dissapointed by the game not meeting your expectations.   We just added controllable tanks to IL-2. There are several interesting things, for example you can feel the enourmous size of the map, see what tank engagements looked like, this differs from most other tank games enormously. They differ like avia sim differs from a game about shooting planes. Distances are long, you can't see anything, etc. This kind of game can't be really popular. We didn't want to make tanks to reap $$$ from players. In the first place, we wanted to show how tank engagements really looked like for those who are interested in this. It's like a documentary, not a blockbuster. Engine created for avia sim imposes many restrictions for tank simulation, limiting its visual epicness. Content looks less detailed (it was created to look good at a distance), trees seem too big and they don't fall, fences are ethereal - these are big no-noes for a good mass market game. We created tanks so you could experience how it was from the other side of IL-2 aiming reticle, from the point of view of its main target. It gives a whole new meaning to watching a dogfight, knowing that if a fighter loses it, then a survived Strurmovik will toast you and there is very little you can do about this. And of course it is exciting to know that all these things are controlled by real people. We didn't spend time to invent a special balanced gameplay that would make playing in a tank interesting or rewarding, we decided to show you the WWII era warfare from another perspective. So I'm asking politely, dear customers, don't add excess hype to the mix. These are just tanks, yes, they are realistic, yes, they can move on 120+ thousands of square kilometers, yes, they have physics and interiors, yes, it is scary, etc. But this is not a game to play holding a beer by any means. This is freaking hardcore.
 

 

I understand the premise...but I wouldn't count the tanks out...I think Loft makes a lot of sense with his comment here.  Why can't we have both?

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All of this would be fun those flying successfully already, and just want some simple, civil, stress-free flying inbetween. Especially on the MP Servers there is a bunch of people that don't know their heads from their a**es in any airplane and expect us to explain to them. What I would love to implement therefore is a Tutorial based on the primary german and russian training aircraft.

 

1. German Pilot Training (SG-38, Grunau Baby, Habicht 8m, Bücker Bü-131)

 

German Primary training was accomplished using mostly the SG-38 (ger.: Schulgleiter 1938) which is basically a flying Gardenchair, launched by a rubber rope by 30 people.

Furhter Training was done on more capable gliders like the Habicht 8m or Bückers 131 Bestmann

 Here's a little taster on what this looks like. I'm actually going there myself next year to fly the SG-38. It's an event for clubs from all over the world visiting it and flying the SG-38 the traditional way.

 

 

That is a brilliant clip! We must have this in the game!

 

Back in a previous life many years ago, I had to record Pathe' News 35mm reels onto digital videotape for archiving, and I did a load of Pathe' clips of gliders from the 30s, 40s and 50s. They were a bit magical. Something like this: http://www.britishpathe.com/video/wings-for-pauline-reel-1

 

Sometimes pilots were dragged into the air by a jeep, sometimes it was just a winch. And usually the gliders were just wooden chairs with wings attached. Bonkers! But it made flight look so simple and achievable. 

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I don't understand the logic of this thread at all. The tanks already exist. The dev's can't go back in time and develop aircraft 'instead'. And if tutorials involving training aircraft were a viable proposition, they would still be, even with tanks. There simply isn't any reason to see them as an either/or choice.

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a hill in-game where u could glide for 30 sec 4-5 m above ground?

don't get me wrong; I'd love to do that in real life - looks real fun.. but in game?

Edited by SvAF/F19_Klunk
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Gliders? No thank you.

You obviously hate fun then.

 

These people are smiling like retards. They are definetly having fun:

a hill in-game where u could glide for 30 sec??

don't get me wrong; I'd love to do that in real life - looks real fun.. but in game?

Gliders like the Baby and Habicht actually stay up for much longer. The SG-38 is just a "What do Rudders, Ailerons and Elevators do?" kind of plane. The others are for aerobatics and endurance.

If done correctly you can stay up for as long as the sun shines in a glider. You don't have fuel limits.

The Habicht is especially important because it has a vicious stall, similar to FW190 and should teach young pilots how to recover from spirals and experoience High G-Forces.

Edited by Klaus_Mann

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I like the idea however I dont think it would succeed as much as tanks would.

 

However a real glider like Go-242 + Ju-52 as tow with actual combat missions would be awesome.

 

But I hope we will see the Po-2 and Ju-52 in the game as both are very interesting aircrafts and important on the eastern front. 

Edited by McKvack

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You obviously hate fun then.

 

I bought this game because I can blow stuff up in it, not to fly some silly glider. I'm sure gliders are fun and all in the real world, but it'd be boring as heck in a combat flight simulator.  

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We have a Bücker 131 and (had) a Grunau Baby at our strip (later one was handed over to a museum, but is still in flyable condition). Would be fun probably, but I think it is leading a bit too far away from the goals the devs may have in mind with BoS (unfortunately).

 

The guy at 1:18 made me laugh :biggrin:

 

PS: Nächstes Jahr gehts wahrscheinlich auch mit unserem Verein auf die Wasserkuppe, dann kann ich den SG38 live fliegen ;)

Edited by Stab/JG26_5tuka

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We have a Bücker 131 and (had) a Grunau Baby at our strip (later one was handed over to a museum, but is still in flyable condition). Would be fun probably, but I think it is leading a bit too far away from the goals the devs may have in mind with BoS (unfortunately).

 

The guy at 1:18 made me laugh :biggrin:

 

PS: Nächstes Jahr gehts wahrscheinlich auch mit unserem Verein auf die Wasserkuppe, dann kann ich den SG38 live fliegen ;)

Anfang September 2016 für uns. Der Will (Der Flächenmann am Anfang) ist bei mir Fluglehrer und war früher im Vorstand auf der Wasserkuppe. Nächstes Jahr bringt er vielleicht seinen Doppelraab oder Spatz zum Anfliegen.

Und die Wasserkuppe hat er auch für uns organisiert.

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Sure, but as others have said, why not have this and tanks?

 

That isn't the choice.  The tanks were developed during some free time while waiting for the flight model engineer.  It's really a choice between gliders and Spitfires, P-51s, or Yaks.  How do you think the voting on that poll would go?

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That isn't the choice.  The tanks were developed during some free time while waiting for the flight model engineer.  It's really a choice between gliders and Spitfires, P-51s, or Yaks.  How do you think the voting on that poll would go?

The Gliders would require a fraction of the development time of any fighter.

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The Gliders would require a fraction of the development time of any fighter.

And have a fraction of the sales...

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The Gliders would require a fraction of the development time of any fighter.

 

It's still taking away from development of combat aircraft.  And this is a combat sim.  There is zero chance that they're making gliders.

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Why not just as part of the new part in the series of BoX games?

 

How are you proposing that the development costs be recovered?

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When you track many Luftwaffe pilots and their start......you undoubtedly go back to the prewar glider club days...but I can't see how  this really works it's way into a combat flight sim.  Unless.....Germany isn't allowed any air force....and we are trying to circumvent something...but at this point of the conflict....?

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How are you proposing that the development costs be recovered?

 

All the people who want a glider sim will pay $10,000 per copy.

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Just come to terms with the fact that your passion for gliders is not shared by the majority of the IL2 community. More people prefer to see tanks than a glider. Its a combat simulator after all.

Your opinion matters but it doesn't trump everyone else's.

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I'll pass on gliders for now, it would be relevant if we were simulating D-day.  If you want gliders go fly FSX.  I think Tanks will be fun, I control ground forces in DCS MP from my work laptop when I would other wise be sidelined.  I plan to do the same in BOS, It may make the MP missions more dynamic, and allow people to contribute when they are away from their hotas.

 

On the subject of proper nav, I would be all for it if the in game map tools supported it.  I don't want some app that I have to alt tab to, I want real nav tools built into the "o" map.  Example, plot waypoints, stop watch, pencil to mark vfr location, protractor. 

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There are definately new players that could benefit from a trainer tutorial... I wouldn't include gliders though.

As for tanks, no... I'm glad that Loft has clarified that they are all about 'flight simulation'.

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The thing is, those people who hop into MP without being able to start the engine aren't going to bother with any included trainers either. The only people those types of aircraft appeal to are those who are already flight simmers and they already know what they are doing. So yeah, tanks are better. It's also worth noting that the single biggest part of adding a flyable plane is the flight model. Obviously, tanks do not have a flight model. This was pointed out by one of the dev team members in the dev blog. The tanks is a side project some of their guys did while waiting for the other parts of the team to catch up. Entirely new aircraft aren't something one tosses together in their spare time at work.

 

Honestly the trainer madness has me perplexed. DCS has fallen into that trap and now there are 3 trainer aircraft that are basically the same (though only 1 has a proper flight model). As far as I can tell, very few people bought or fly any of them. IL2's team should not make the same mistake. Now if you want a low performance combat plane, like a Storch or Po-2, then I could go for that. But not a true trainer and certainly not gliders.

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I already know how fly (in CFS games of course).  ;)

And I can teach a novice to fly a Yak in few hours, no gliders, trainers need. BTW - FSX has plenty of this.

 

More fun on tanks. www.MessenTools.com-Frutas-tank.gif

Edited by Sokol1

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I'm here for the planes but I love the idea of integrating some combined arms into the mix. Then supporting that tank platoon pressing towards their objective in multiplayer gets that much more interesting knowing that some or all of the tanks you're supporting are human controlled.

 

Keep the Stuka/IL-2 away! :)

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The problem is that most of us know how to fly. Most young people are really scared of entering a sim because they don't. They don't know the basics. All they know about aircraft is Battlefield or GTA. They do need a trainer with doulble commands and a manual like flying for dummies. If we don't work on this the genre will simply die out. The average simmer is 40+ years old. 

 

A flight school supported by humans. And it has to be for free - like ROF - A trainer + a human instructor and after compitition 2 free AC.

Edited by indiaciki

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I think all additions in one way or another are interesting (DCS and MSFS are good examples that good aircraft will always please someone), but there is an order of priority and usability that must be respected here. People who can't care enough to read a basic guide on how to take off on a Bf-109F that flies smoothly and requires little to no management will not shoot themselves off slopes with gliders, even if the idea is really cool.

 

As things stand now, to learn how to fly a basic plane and understand the control one can always download Rise of Flight for free and have a go. I don't know how things stand now but back in 2009 when I bought it the first thing you had to go through was a very straightforward yet comprehensive tutorial on the basics of flight and so on.

 

Fighting in Rise of Flight (to me at least) always felt much harder than in WW2 and modern simulators, but the flying is a breeze and good to teach the feel of aircraft to a newcomer.

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As things stand now, to learn how to fly a basic plane and understand the control one can always download Rise of Flight for free and have a go. I don't know how things stand now but back in 2009 when I bought it the first thing you had to go through was a very straightforward yet comprehensive tutorial on the basics of flight and so on.

 

Fighting in Rise of Flight (to me at least) always felt much harder than in WW2 and modern simulators, but the flying is a breeze and good to teach the feel of aircraft to a newcomer.

 

I was going to say the same thing. Rise of Flight would make a good crash course.

 

Now that I have rudder pedals now, I need to go back and play again.

Edited by Fern

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I was going to say the same thing. Rise of Flight would make a good crash course.

 

Now that I have rudder pedals now, I need to go back and play again.

I tested that a while ago and while to some 2-seaters in RoF can be used as trainers (even though the gunner has terrible forward vision and NO controlls whatsoever) their flight characteristics are a bit different. Also, at least in my squadrom, many don't want to download and install a second sim ONLY for general training purpose.

 

I really hope(d) a trainer aircraft with tandem controlls, whatever it might be , would come to BoS some day.  While not nessecarily being a glider (which would require a towing aircraft and not teach engine management) sth like a Po-2, I-16 UTI, Bücker 131 Jungmann, Bü-181 Bestmann or Bf-108 Taifun would be perfectly suited for the job.

 

It's pretty obvious why trainers are important to teach new people that come form different games or have 0 expirience. There's no better way to teach somebody VFR navigation or engine management (not to mention combat manouvres) than doing it with him sitting "side by side" and let him see every step you make. While we expirienced simmers and closed Alpha/Beta Veterans may know a lot about BoS and it's aircrafts for some it's still a big mystery.

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I tried that ROF thing with my son (22) and his friends. it doesn't work without a human instructor. Kids would love to dogfight but they really do need somebody to teach them the basics. They live in a Discovery Channel shit MFD stealth BVR bullshit and expect that you just jump into a plane or helicpter flying by itself with WASD. They don't get it. Airplanes fly like tie Fighters. You shoot. If I tell them that that there's no difference between a Cessna and a Su-27 they don't get it. Because of idiotic games like Battlefield. It's the learning curve. We all have decades of simmming or real planes and thousands of hours. Kids don't know. This idiotic TV hype of Jets, stealth, missles and stuff like that in mainsteam gaming and TV kills new pilots.

Edited by indiaciki

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I tested that a while ago and while to some 2-seaters in RoF can be used as trainers (even though the gunner has terrible forward vision and NO controlls whatsoever) their flight characteristics are a bit different. Also, at least in my squadrom, many don't want to download and install a second sim ONLY for general training purpose.

 

I really hope(d) a trainer aircraft with tandem controlls, whatever it might be , would come to BoS some day.  While not nessecarily being a glider (which would require a towing aircraft and not teach engine management) sth like a Po-2, I-16 UTI, Bücker 131 Jungmann, Bü-181 Bestmann or Bf-108 Taifun would be perfectly suited for the job.

 

It's pretty obvious why trainers are important to teach new people that come form different games or have 0 expirience. There's no better way to teach somebody VFR navigation or engine management (not to mention combat manouvres) than doing it with him sitting "side by side" and let him see every step you make. While we expirienced simmers and closed Alpha/Beta Veterans may know a lot about BoS and it's aircrafts for some it's still a big mystery.

+1

Gliders would be a gimmick mainly. The SG-38 simply is a legend and only requires a rubber rope for takeoff. Actually most of these old gliders, if launched from a hill require only a rubber rope.

The Habicht 8m and 6m with their very high wing loading were very good aerobatics trainers, better than any motorplane could ever be.

 

But in general I would be happy with a primary trainer like Po-2, Bü-131 and Bf108, and advanced trainers like the I-16 UTI and Arado 96.

 

Generally I would love to see the engine developed more into a realistic weather simulation in which Thermals and Ridge Soaring can be simulated.

 

Engine management is one more thing you don't have to burden yourself with in the first couple of flights.

Edited by Klaus_Mann
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I would like to volunteer to do a simple flying PDF and basic youtube film for beginners with 0 knowledge. I really think its important.

Edited by indiaciki
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Ok, the fun starts at 6:20 and shows why even very old gliders like this Habicht from the 1930s are far better at introducing a young pilot to aerobatics, than the slow and sluggish Bf108 and Ar-96s.

 

Edited by Klaus_Mann
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I would like to volunteer to do a simple flying PDF and basic youtube film for beginners with 0 knowledge. I really think its important.

 

Make it so!  :)

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I will. It'll be very basic and it'll have to include the fact that modern jets are basically the same as GA and piston WWI and WWII aircraft

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