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Seriously, some of these campaign missions are...

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I hear you, unreasonable, but I still think the best course of action is to provide continual, constructive criticism. A "no" today from the team doesn't necessarily mean a "no" tomorrow. After all, they did finally compromise on the unlock issue. I don't think the current campaign system is abominable and beyond saving (otherwise I would not play it at all), but it definitely needs some improvements. Let's see what future updates bring. :)

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I would say the current campaign system is very bad, but it can be improved

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I hear you, unreasonable, but I still think the best course of action is to provide continual, constructive criticism. A "no" today from the team doesn't necessarily mean a "no" tomorrow. After all, they did finally compromise on the unlock issue. I don't think the current campaign system is abominable and beyond saving (otherwise I would not play it at all), but it definitely needs some improvements. Let's see what future updates bring. :)

 

:salute: Fair enough, I shall just have to continue to take out my frustrations on those pesky R.E.8s and hope for the best over here....

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The only condition to get ''mission succesful'' should be your survival so you can fight another day.That simple..

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The only condition to get ''mission succesful'' should be your survival so you can fight another day.That simple..

Now a little like a car rental. Bring it back full of gas, washed, and without scratches.

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The only condition to get ''mission succesful'' should be your survival so you can fight another day.That simple..

 

Actually, the people paying your salary would probably like to see you shoot something down or blow something up at some point.

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I hear you, unreasonable, but I still think the best course of action is to provide continual, constructive criticism.

 

Exactly :)

 

Actually, the people paying your salary would probably like to see you shoot something down or blow something up at some point.

Adolf Galland got 104 victories in 705 missions. That's one kill for every 6.796 missions. I doubt the people paying your salary would be upset that you're performing at an average level. In fact, coming back alive from every mission would probably make you above average.

Edited by Cybermat47

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Adolf Galland got 104 victories in 705 missions. That's one kill for every 6.796 missions. I doubt the people paying your salary would be upset that you're performing at an average level. In fact, coming back alive from every mission would probably make you above average.

 

Yes, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the post that I responded to.

 

 

The only condition to get ''mission succesful'' should be your survival so you can fight another day.That simple..

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Look up the word "only".

I know what that word means. Seeing as you only get XP if you get the 'mission successful' message, it's pretty obvious what roaming_gnome was saying.

 

While you're at it, look up the word "average", too.

I'm also well aware of what that word means. Simply because I'm a teenager doesn't mean I'm an idiot. Seeing as earning 5 victories is enough for a fighter pilot to receive the title of 'ace', I'd assume that most pilots don't get 5 victories. Otherwise, being an ace would be nothing special.

 

If Adolf Galland "only" made it home alive you would have never heard of him.

I don't know the names of the vast majority of WWII aircrew. They still helped the war effort of their countries. The ones who never earned any victories but still bought their planes back ensured that the few aces could score so many kills.

 

Also, I really don't know what you're getting at. In the campaign at the moment, you have to attack the enemy no matter what, and come home with a fully functioning aircraft. Fighter pilots only become aces if they pick their fights. I doubt any of us would have heard of Franz Stigler if he hadn't retreated from the first B-17s he encountered over Sicily. And no-one would've heard of Hans-Joachim Jabs if he'd decided to attack every Spitfire he saw. Heck, most people still haven't heard of him.

Edited by Cybermat47

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The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.

 

Take calculated risks. That is quite different from being rash.

 

George S.Patton

 

This two quotes should be cemented in your brain everytime you take off for a mission.

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Also, I really don't know what you're getting at.

 

Wars are not won by people getting home safely.  They're won by blowing things up and shooting things down.  That is why you have to blow things up or shoot things down to get credit for a successful mission.  

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Wars are not won by people getting home safely.  They're won by blowing things up and shooting things down.  That is why you have to blow things up or shoot things down to get credit for a successful mission.

 

Okay, you have a point there.

 

Kamikaze action point and landing point were the same location.

XD

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I'm amazed you still persevere with the campaign Luke.  Why? Why do you punish yourself instead of going and playing WOFF or something if you like campaigns? Out of all the various sims I've ever played I lost interest in this one soonest and it's mainly due to the campaign. True story, even [Edited]Thunder got more playtime on my PC than the gloriously modeled and rendered Il-2: Battle of Stalecrap.

 

BoS does still sit wistfully on my HDD though, in the vain hope that someone will come along and make a game out of it. As a neophyte programmer I'd contribute to making one myself since it is such a life-like and high quality sim. It's seems such a waste that it has no "game" built into it.

 

That and the theater doesn't really interest me tbh too much Cyrillic and backwards Russian thinking and no P-51.

 

tl;dr Great simulation, terribly dull game. Why frustrate yourself playing the token campaign? 

Edited by Bearcat
Language

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I'm amazed you still persevere with the campaign Luke.  Why?

 

 

 

Why frustrate yourself playing the token campaign? 
 

 

For one, not all the missions are poorly generated. I had a pretty enjoyable mission flying the He 111 last night. Our escorts got tangled up with some intercepting fighters, the latter of whom managed to break through and make a couple of attacks on our formation, which happened to bring one of our planes down and damage one other. So, not all is bad.

 

The other reason is that, as stubborn as the guys may be, they have shown a willingness in the past to change things when confronted with logical, persistent, and constructive criticism. That's why I post my criticisms of the campaign - because I want to see it get better.

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The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his. Take calculated risks. That is quite different from being rash. George S.Patton This two quotes should be cemented in your brain everytime you take off for a mission.

Not necessarily.

At the boots on the ground level the entire reason for your existence is to complete your mission, end of story, whether you live or die. If you can do that and survive that's grand, but if you have to loose people to accomplish your mission so be it. If that means going on patrol and destroying any enemy you encounter, but you simply don't encounter anything that's fine, but if you are sent to destroy an enemy strike package and you fail to do so your mission is a failure, period. And those failures have consequences.

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I'm amazed you still persevere with the campaign Luke.  Why? Why do you punish yourself instead of going and playing WOFF or something if you like campaigns? Out of all the various sims I've ever played I lost interest in this one soonest and it's mainly due to the campaign. True story, even [Edited]Thunder got more playtime on my PC than the gloriously modeled and rendered Il-2: Battle of Stalecrap.

 

BoS does still sit wistfully on my HDD though, in the vain hope that someone will come along and make a game out of it. As a neophyte programmer I'd contribute to making one myself since it is such a life-like and high quality sim. It's seems such a waste that it has no "game" built into it.

 

That and the theater doesn't really interest me tbh too much Cyrillic and backwards Russian thinking and no P-51.

 

tl;dr Great simulation, terribly dull game. Why frustrate yourself playing the token campaign? 

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/13912-veteranenmissions/

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/16008-platzschutzstaffel-pitomnik-mission-pack/

 

seriously worth a look

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited by Dakpilot

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For one, not all the missions are poorly generated. I had a pretty enjoyable mission flying the He 111 last night. Our escorts got tangled up with some intercepting fighters, the latter of whom managed to break through and make a couple of attacks on our formation, which happened to bring one of our planes down and damage one other. So, not all is bad.

 

The other reason is that, as stubborn as the guys may be, they have shown a willingness in the past to change things when confronted with logical, persistent, and constructive criticism. That's why I post my criticisms of the campaign - because I want to see it get better.

 

 

Yeah, it can generate some pleasing small-scale skirmishes and I'll admit that the world seems populated when you fly, so all the framework is there for a real campaign. I just can't understand the bold step taken in the wrong direction by BoS in moving away from the traditional campaign structure. You remember right? The age old formula of: Join a squadron, earn ranks and medals, fly alongside named AI pilots that never live for a whole week, get reports from the front when big historical things occur and relive history in a way that lends your small-scale generic skirmishes a bit of continuity and emotional engagement. Was any rationalisation ever given for this decision? I just assumed that the campaign must be a placeholder going on historical precedent but no news seems to come out about any improvements.

 

There does seem to be plenty of news addressing niggles like instrument 'x' in the LaGG-3 has been adjusted by one pixel or corrections being made to the formula calculating the drag co-efficient of historically researched rivet type 'z' and often I read that 0.064 Km/h has been added to (or subtracted from) the top speed of the FW-190 in compliance with historical data recently discovered under the cushions of somebodies sofa. Which is fine, i'm not deriding the work that goes into this and the FM's and whatnot are important but surely having people continue to buy the game and play it for longer than 3 weeks is important too? Especially if you can attract a LOT of people with the rallying cry of "Lookit the glory days of Il-2 are back!"

 

Planesets for all theaters + a decent campaign + plenty of MP maps + mission editor + an engine that can handle at least 50 planes ==  the formula for success. (Also, put the P-51 and Spitfire in it at all costs ASAP, I can't stress that enough. They're recognisable icons. Nobody but plane nerds knows what an La-5 or a He-111 is and nobody will care until they get lured into wanting to find out)

 

Bugger the paint on the needle of the airspeed indicator on the Yak-1 being the wrong shade of yellow, that can wait.

 

 

 

 

Holy voice-acting batman! Never seen that in a campaign before. 

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Fact is youre half a year too late, they cnfirmed to keep the current campaign structure as it is even for BoM.

 

The official reason for why the campaign is the way we have it now is that they wanted to approach sth new. 777 has build campaigns for RoF so no one can say they lack the "know how".

 

The unofficial one is that they tried to find ablow budget solution to safe them a lot of scripting work ect. Still the campaign ran into a lot of issues (well it still has) which took enought time to fix to just create a real campaign.

 

I sure get your frustration and personally, while not a big SP guy myself, also dislike their approach. But, in all honesty, don't blame the few FM fixes that have been worked on (infact theres still many more required) that have been worked on. Dont spare one big issue in favour of the other.

Edited by Stab/JG26_5tuka

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I agree, FM is of paramount importance but so is having full servers of players enjoying those FMs and having people buying the game and getting hyped about DLC because the game takes them on a journey instead of just dumping them in the cockpit of some piece of painstakingly made 1940's military hardware or other and expecting them to figure it out for themselves. I don't know enough about aeronautical engineering to have a worthwhile opinion about anything in particular in relation to the technical aspect of flight modelling in BoS but, having had my bony backside in various types of aircraft on occasion, I'd say that overall the FM's are among the most convincing I've ever played with. They don't need to be the main focus of development at this point beyond the auspices of whatever issues arise where well informed users consider them to be "broken".

 

Now I remember the glory days of CFS2, RB3D, EAW, Janes WW2 Fighters and Il-2 and I remember launching Hyperlobby and seeing hundreds of people online, the top 5 servers full of players, having mates on Team Speak telling me when to spam "connect" when somebody was leaving so I could get a slot on War Clouds or Spits vs 109s or Skies of Squalor and not being worried if I didn't get a slot because I could just join a co-op that was being hosted "on the fly" and check back later. No real simulation (sorry War Chunder) has even cast a pale shadow upon the monolithic edifice that was level of participation we witnessed in those times and, I can assure you, that this is not because the FM's these days are worse than they used to be. They're better than ever, in every game through DCS, CloD, RoF and BoS, all of them have majorly improved in this respect. Even WoFF manages to eke out playable, credible and life-like FM's from the old CFS 3 engine.

 

Nowadays you're lucky if you can get 20 people in a server for more than an hour anywhere outside of Friday and Saturday night.

 

Why is this so? If we have better games with better FM's and everything else, why are there no players? What's missing?

 

What's missing is that there are no good campaigns in any of those recent titles (excluding 3rd party made campaigns).  The CloD campaign is a joke, RoF Career mode is ok but the clownish AI make it a joke, DCS... well, I sit in the plane and scratch my head a lot trying to figure out what button to press next. Seriously, who can even start a plane and fly it let alone attempt a campaign? DCS is for pros. As for BoS, I'm sure that the office must have been re-painted and that everyone was high fumes when that campaign was made. War Thunder... pfft nope, but then War Thunder is accesible.

 

Now, here's something of interest...

 

WoFF, brilliant campaign, no multi-player.

 

Looking over at SimHQ forums the WoFF punters are the happiest and most content lot there. 

 

There are no threads of whining about this or that rivet being in the wrong place or the other Balkenkreuz being an inch too wide because people are playing the crap (It appears as though Bearcat will let me say crap and I appreciate that) out of it and loving it and WoFF is derived from a game that had nothing going for it at all. The only thing these guys complain about is that they see too much action! 

 

I tend to think along the lines of single-player being the gateway drug that feeds and fuels multi-player, it's a symbiotic process where the campaign gets you interested and lets you grow your skills until you become confident enough to go online and get repeatedly wrecked by real people. Then you go back to SP and practice more until you're ready for another go online and then, before you know it, your wife divorces you because you sold the exercise equipment she never uses and built yourself a 1:1 scale Bf-109 cockpit in the living room where you now spend all your spare time shouting at people on the internet.

 

Without that comfy and engaging SP experience to fall back into you just can't nurture a decent player-base because there's no nice little sandbox to learn in.

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I dont get your overreacting and off topic talking but I think you deserve some more background imformation. The reason MP is so low is because many early acess users were turned away from playing at the point unlocks were introduced.

 

Those who still played were turned away when devs limited player capazity in MP from 100+ to 33 players per server. The increase to 48 can only been seen as a slight improvement and of course is still too low to offer any entertaining action on a map as huge as Stalngrad. From an MP point BoS went threw a painfull struggle since Okt 2014.

 

And I can assure you FMs are not seen as higher priority than any other content. In contary, FM work usually is hard, time consuming and not promising any profit unlike working on new content for BoM, which is where their ressources go into instead.

 

Matter of fact its not FM bugs, MP issues whatsoever that made the campaign become like that. The campaign we have now has been planed from the beginning and is working as intendet from the devs point of view. There's no need to find wild reasons for it.

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I think the language barrier is coming between us a little kamerad. It's a shame that my Deutsch isn't even at at pre-schooler level since my way of saying things would be tricky and "wild" to your mind so I'll try to tone it down.

 

Ok, a question for you:

 

Why is the number of players in MP so low in CloD, DCS and RoF?

 

They don't have unlocks and they're a ghost town compared to what Hyperlobby used to be. I think blaming unlocks is a cop out. What I'm trying to point out is that what worked in the past for other games (that technically weren't as good as BoS) still applies.

 

You don't need 100+ player slots, you need to fill enough slots to justify having 100+ slots.

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Its a chain reaction. If we have only 30 slots open on a certain server you'll rarely see it full because most people knlw that even 30 people are too few to populate big maps and carry objectives in a mission. Simar accounts for 48 people. That number of player would be ok for dogfight servers or War Thunder type of maps but not big, mission based expert servers.

 

If I see a full 48 people server I know tzat at least 15 of those players are AFK, teamkillers or cluelessly flying threw the wilderness. As a consequence I rarely fly anymore because no matter if a server is full or empty currently its just not enought people on it to offer a real MP expirience.

 

Thats why we need raised player counts first before talking about raising the total number of players in MP because it just doesnt work out vise versa.

 

Cant really speak for the other sims as I havent been involved in their development.

Edited by Stab/JG26_5tuka

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Well I updated BoS and had a go at the missions again. They seem pretty good to me, predictable though. You always meet an enemy flight on the way out and always over the target but the world is alive and there's lots of shooting on the ground. Flak seems to be missing? I don't remember seeing any firing at me even when I strafed an airfield (Yes it was an enemy one, I double checked) The AI aren't complete potato, they do their job well enough. They're not very threatening to me as a player but they seem to be capable enough against each other and this gives the missions some good atmosphere.

 

I only got chased aggressively by one LaGG-3 in three missions after trying to clear the 6 of another 109 from my flight. He was the wingman of the LaGG I attacked and he cut across the arc of my attack and ended up behind me but without much energy. I out-climbed him fairly easily and he was immediately spanked thereafter by my wingman for his hubris, which is about what you'd expect to happen since he made a tactical mistake in chasing me in a climb when I was considerably faster than him and had more friends. 

 

I'd say the missions are no better or worse than any other sim, except that they are lacking in plane numbers and variety.  I can only do three types of mission, not very good for long term interest.

Edited by JimmyBlonde

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Flew half a dozen more tonight, they seem pretty good actually. I had some interesting moments and plenty of fun. There's a lot of action on the ground and in the air so I crashed a 109 into it, dropped bombs on some of it from an Il-2 and took a scenic tour of it in a LaGG-3, passing over landmarks like the grain elevator and the train-yard. I saw some missions where flights of planes just seemed to keep coming, sure they were small but the sky was populated and less predictable than I had previously thought it was.

 

I earned some XP and unlocked some stuff although I don't understand what all the "level" does? Do I unlock new spells when I reach level 5? Can I become a Paladin or a Wizard? If I roll 20 do I do extra damage?

 

Anyway, the missions were fun and I even got jumped on the way home from my tour by a pair of 109s (I switch sides if I die). I also saw that flak does exist, although it's not particularly accurate which is good and bad (mainly good because dying to flak sucks big time). I'd still like to join a squadron though and have a pilot with an identity and a career but the missions make it playable. 

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...crazy ridiculous. Who would ever send out 1 Bf 109 to intercept a group of Il-2s that had fighter escort? I know there needs to be a challenge for people in offline mode, but sending out just the player's plane against 8-10 enemy planes is simply absurd. 

 

Given how outnumbered the German Air force was, especially when they were being pushed back, that seems about historically right (you should have a wingman instead of just yourself.) and I myself don't have too much trouble with those missons...

 

The trick is to climb well above them, dive and hit them once and run. Don't set up for a second pass unless you have a lot of energy and can keep the enemy comfortably below you. Work on your aim, try to learn the art of killing your target in the first pass. They had to do this in Africa, (German pilots were outnumbered 10 to 1 in some cases) and they had to do this in the Steppes of russia.

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Given how outnumbered the German Air force was, especially when they were being pushed back, that seems about historically right (you should have a wingman instead of just yourself.) and I myself don't have too much trouble with those missons...

 

The trick is to climb well above them, dive and hit them once and run. Don't set up for a second pass unless you have a lot of energy and can keep the enemy comfortably below you. Work on your aim, try to learn the art of killing your target in the first pass. They had to do this in Africa, (German pilots were outnumbered 10 to 1 in some cases) and they had to do this in the Steppes of russia.

 

That's all good and well, but it makes for horrible mission design, when the player has to complete certain mission objectives in order to earn a Pass. It becomes even more absurd when the player is sent out alone on these missions. 

 

By contrast, there's Veteran's Chir Front missions, which offer a far more plausible look at what sort of missions the Germans were flying in the vicinity of Stalingrad in late 1942.

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Good stuff in this thread!

Campaign missions definitely needs tweaking in many aspects.

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Just flew escort mission with flight of 4 Yaks. There were a lot of enemy Stukas on way to the target. And of course my wingmen engaged them regardless of my orders to follow me and continue mission. There I was alone once again protecting attacking Sturmoviks from 4 messerschmitts patrolling the area. This is annoying as hell with the AI in campaign.

 

As said lot of work to do with the missions to get them working properly. Hope they do what needs to be done, current state of missions is not acceptable.

Edited by Zami

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@Zami

 

You can order the AI to rejoin when they do that, they're pretty obedient in my experience but you have to be quick about it or they might follow through before rejoining and end up being attacked. You might have to do it a couple of times if this happens since they will attack every time a new enemy group appears but they will try to rejoin each time as far as I know.

 

It's a little annoying that they take it upon themselves to attack without orders but generally they are a huge improvement on the old "Balloon jihad suicide squadron," RoF AI in terms of following orders and general awareness.  

 

Left Alt + 3 is the default command.

 

According to the manual:

 

"Return to our mission: orders your flight to cease their current actions if they are not in accordance with the mission’s objectives (for example, stopping an attack on an enemy target that is not part of the mission’s orders and returning to formation)"

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Jimmy, yes it should work as you described but unfortunetaly that is not always the case.

In that escort mission mentioned here I immediately gave orders to return mission. They just kept engaging Stukas. I gave that same order many times but no effect. This happens a lot to me in escort missions.

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Jimmy, yes it should work as you described but unfortunetaly that is not always the case.

In that escort mission mentioned here I immediately gave orders to return mission. They just kept engaging Stukas. I gave that same order many times but no effect. This happens a lot to me in escort missions.

 

I've noticed my AI are now being disobedient too. Thanks Zami, they obviously heard about what yours get away with and have started their own rebellion.

 

 

I've heen revisiting the campaign missions, and came here to request the same.

 

Please could numbers be balanced, sometimes the mismatch (in numbers) is insane. With the new Warhamm tool and trying to get some immersion from the campaign, being sent to certain death is more annoying than usual.

 

Conversely, you can see how great battles can be when balanced in the QMB so we know it is possible!

 

Also, every flight seems to be at the same altitude, it would be good to have more variation, both being bounced from above and returning the favour sometimes!

 

I'd also like recon missions where encountered flight types are not known.

 

:-)

 

Yes! Recon missions please! And fighter sweeps and defensive patrols. Maybe even a free flight mission where that just lets you tour around on your own business and look for trouble like the lone patrol type. As for number, in the wise words of Willie Nelson: "You got to know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em. Know when to walk away and know when to run."

 

It can get pretty hard sometimes but it probably should be hard. (Not impossible though)

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I've noticed my AI are now being disobedient too. Thanks Zami, they obviously heard about what yours get away with and have started their own rebellion.

 

Sorry about that! Hope the devs end this mutiny right away, this is getting out of hand.

 

 

Yes! Recon missions please! And fighter sweeps and defensive patrols. Maybe even a free flight mission where that just lets you tour around on your own business and look for trouble like the lone patrol type. As for number, in the wise words of Willie Nelson: "You got to know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em. Know when to walk away and know when to run."

 

It can get pretty hard sometimes but it probably should be hard. (Not impossible though)

 

 

I've heen revisiting the campaign missions, and came here to request the same.

 

Please could numbers be balanced, sometimes the mismatch (in numbers) is insane. With the new Warhamm tool and trying to get some immersion from the campaign, being sent to certain death is more annoying than usual.

 

Conversely, you can see how great battles can be when balanced in the QMB so we know it is possible!

 

Also, every flight seems to be at the same altitude, it would be good to have more variation, both being bounced from above and returning the favour sometimes!

 

I'd also like recon missions where encountered flight types are not known.

 

:-)

 

Yes, more varition, that is what I have been saying for a long time. More mission types, more variation to things inside missions. Otherwise it just gets dull when you fly almost same missions over and over.

 

For the balance issue I have to agree with Jimmy. It is war after all, situtations are different. Not every battle can be balanced between parties. Sometimes you run, sometimes it`s other way around.

Edited by Zami

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Mission failed is annoying, surviving should be worth something.

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