Pilot Limitation under load and stress

[DD_bongodriver]

The air forces conducting the research.....

The air forces conducting the research have posted in this thread?

[Crump]

 

also get the feeling that VVS pilots are going to be outnumbered if only because sooo many like the 109 and 190 and think they were the greatest fighters in the sky.

 

 

You understand that realistically modeled, the pilot will set much of the performance envelope for maneuvering.  The type of plane he is in will not be as big a factor as it was when you could maneuver without a realistic model.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Rama
removed provocative comment

[DD_bongodriver]

Read the thread please, Bongo.

Read the question please Crump

[Grifter]

To be fair to Crump, he did provide a link to a modern study on the subject of Pilot Physiology Bongo. Obviously not much of this stuff was well understood during the 1940's.

I don't think we need to be contentious about people's contributions.

[DD_bongodriver]

Crump said:
 

In a real aircraft, despite the claims made in this thread, most fighter pilots are mental midgets under acceleration which is what the data says.

 

I said

 

Who made those claims?

 

Crump said

 

The air forces conducting the research.....

 

I said

 

The air forces conducting the research have posted in this thread?

 

 

See the problem here? I want to know who in this thread made 'claims'

[DD_bongodriver]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-XH1YcPCeQ

[Crump]

 

See the problem here? I want to know who in this thread made 'claims'

 

 

Be a little more clear In your question, please.  I thought you meant who made the claim fighter pilots are mental midgets under acceleration.  That would be the Air Forces conducting the study.

 

I meant the claim a simple model of red and black colors to represent physiology was realistic.  So that claim would be from you.

Good video,

 

Look at all the work, preparation and planning he puts into his routine long before he gets into the airplane.  All to mitigate acceleration effects.

[DD_bongodriver]

I meant the claim a simple model of red and black colors to represent physiology was realistic.  So that claim would be from you.

 

Good video,

 

Look at all the work, preparation and planning he puts into his routine long before he gets into the airplane.  All to mitigate acceleration effects.

Ah Ok, I see your error here, no problem, I didn't claim a 'simplistic' simulation was realistic......I mean think about it 'simplistic' who would ever make such a claim, what I actually said was it is sufficient for the purposes of a entertainment flight simulation game.

 

Yes the video is good, if you really stop to think about it, it answers all the questions.

 

1. manoeuvres like that clearly didn't incapacitate the elderly pilot.

2. the elderly pilot was pulling manoeuvres like that which will be impossible to do in any WWII aircraft.

 

BTW, the preparations are simply to rehearse the routine and in no way pre-prepare the human physiology for acceleration forces.

[Grifter]

When I first started reading this thread, it instantly brought back a memory from my youth- reading "Baa, Baa, Black Sheep" by Gregory Boyington. His discussion was about flying maneuvers and how as a former wrestler, Boyington could "tighten up" his well-developed neck muscles in order to keep the blood from rushing out of his head and blacking out under G's.

 

I even remember the opening words:

 

"When I first got back into flying..."

 

Great book.

[MiloMorai]

TOLERANCE TO G's.
   Because of the number of factors involved, it is difficult to predict how much acceleration a certain individual can withstand. Tolerance is related to the rate of onset of acceleration and to the duration of exposure. Individual tolerance depends on factors such as the height of the person, age, elasticity of the blood vessels, training, the responses of the heart and blood vessels, and on health. Because of the many variables involved, the centrifuge data in the following table are useful only as an estimate of the average civilian pilot's tolerance to +Gz (little is known of tolerance to -Gz). These data were collected from 1,000 Naval aviation pilots and aviation personnel and apply to rates of onset of about +1 G per second - a rate that well may be encountered in civil aerobatic maneuvers.

      Table 1. Thresholds in Relation to +Gz Tolerance
   -------------------------------------------------------
                       Average     Standard
       Symptom        Threshold    Deviation       Range
   --------------------------------------------------------
       Grayout           4.1 G      ± 0.7 G     2.2 to 7.1 G
       Blackout          4.7 G      ± 0.8 G     2.7 to 7.8 G
   Unconsciousness       5.4 G      ± 0.9 G     3.0 to 8.4 G
   --------------------------------------------------------

   a. Note that at an onset rate of 1 G per second, the G values in Table 1 could just as well be expressed in seconds. Thus, the "average" pilot accelerating at 1 G per second could expect to have grayout at 4.1 seconds, blackout at 4.7 seconds, and unconsciousness at 5.4 seconds. More sensitive pilots, however, might have grayout, blackout, and unconsciousness at 2.2, 2.7, and 3.0 seconds. If the rate of onset were greater, then symptoms of grayout, blackout, and loss of consciousness would occur sooner.

  

b. A major outcome of these centrifuge studies was the demonstration of significant variations among subjects. The act of piloting an aircraft can raise the acceleration tolerance; thus, the results of some centrifuge studies during which the subject was passive may not apply directly to flight. This increased tolerance is not so great, however, that the aerobatic pilot should consider himself or herself immune to G incapacitation.

  

c. Tolerance of -Gz (foot to head) has not been studied intensively. About -1 Gz produces an unpleasant congestion of blood in the face and head; -2 to -3 Gz causes severe congestion of the face, throbbing headache, progressively blurring, graying, or occasionally reddening of vision. After exposure to -Gz, there may be tiny hemorrhages in the skin and eyes and the eyelids may be swollen. Minus 5 Gz for 5 seconds is probably the upper limit of tolerance; this level has seldom been achieved by volunteer subjects. Unlike military flying in which -Gz does not present much of a problem, aerobatic flying may demand that a pilot spend over half of his or her air time in inverted flight, pulling -Gz.

  

d. One little known, but important, aspect of tolerance to G's is the effect of rapid changes from +Gz to -Gz, or vice versa. Because aerobatics induce such rapid changes, tolerance to changes could be highly significant. It is known, for example, that when one is subjected to -Gz, blood pressure receptors in the head and chest respond to the increased pressure and cause a reflex slowing of the heart (Figure 4). A rapid change to +Gz (for example, when the pilot executes a half-roll during a maneuver) would suddenly drop blood pressure in these receptors and there would be a rapid speeding up of the heart to maintain pressure; but because the reflex system requires some time to sense the need, the heart could be delayed in responding to this demand and blood flow to the brain might suddenly decrease. Because of the sudden transition, and possible delay in response of the heart, a vertical 8 with an outside loop on top (-Gz) and an inside loop on the bottom (+Gz) may be one of the most threatening of aerobatic maneuvers (Figure 5). An inability of the cardiovascular system to react to the rapid change from -Gz to +Gz was probably the basis for the loss of consciousness reported in Case IV, Paragraph 6.d.

  

e. Obviously, some persons can withstand greater G's than others. Even experienced military pilots in a simulated aerial combat maneuver using anti-G procedures (M-1, L-1 maneuvers) could remain conscious only about 6 to 7 seconds. Everyone has a limit. Seasoned aerobatic pilots may represent a selected group because persons with less physiological resistance probably drop out of aerobatics before reaching the highest levels of performance. The aerobatic pilot will realize the potential hazards of G's and will seek to find the level of acceleration he or she can safely endure.

[Crump]

 

BTW, the preparations are simply to rehearse the routine and in no way pre-prepare the human physiology for acceleration forces.          

 

 

Of course not, just as practicing immediate action drills has nothing to do with the adrenaline of combat, it is just to rehearse the routine.

 

 

 manoeuvres like that clearly didn't incapacitate the elderly pilot.

 

Oh yeah, you can see by the expression on his face he is not having to concentrate at all on what he is doing.

There are several studies posted in the thread.  Make sure you check the conditions the participants where subjected too.  Seating position, equipment, and AGSM makes a huge difference to the average.

[DD_bongodriver]

Oh yeah, you can see by the expression on his face he is not having to concentrate at all on what he is doing.

Really? you are actually saying that this guy is 'incapacitated' because he is 'concentrating'?.....wow you really do need to go back on the oxygen mate.

[Crump]

 

Note that at an onset rate of 1 G per second, the G values in Table 1 could just as well be expressed in seconds. Thus, the "average" pilot accelerating at 1 G per second could expect to have grayout at 4.1 seconds, blackout at 4.7 seconds, and unconsciousness at 5.4 seconds. More sensitive pilots, however, might have grayout, blackout, and unconsciousness at 2.2, 2.7, and 3.0 seconds. If the rate of onset were greater, then symptoms of grayout, blackout, and loss of consciousness would occur sooner.

 

 

Help folks digest what the table is telling them.....

[DD_bongodriver]

Help folks digest that the 'average' WWII combat pilot was probably in better shape than this guy.... , lets count how many seconds it takes for him to black out.......oh he doesn't

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-XH1YcPCeQ

[Grifter]

Ah, silly me- here I was thinking you two had kissed and made up! 

[DD_bongodriver]

I know, maybe one day he will forgive me for pointing out his errors.

[Blakhart]

Hmmm bongo...

 

Your example is just bad.

There is a big difference between aerobatic display and manouver combat...

 

But to understand it you need to have some experience, do you have such one or you just want to add your 3 cents ???

 

Crump is talking about very complicated issues which just cant be added to the game at the early relase but he have good arguments and knowledge.

 

What you have ?

Edited November 13, 2013 by =LG=Blakhart

[DD_bongodriver]

Your example is just bad.

There is a big difference between aerobatic display and manouver combat...

 

Oh? and what is that difference?....or more to the point how is the example in the video not showing that the physiology is more than capable of taking rapid onset g forces far in excess of the typical WWII pilots experience?

 

But to understand it you need to have some experience, do you have such one or you just want to add your 3 cents ???

 

 

Yes, some, I have 3500 hours as a commercial pilot and flight instructor, I fly vintage aircraft and have flow aerobatics, not to competition level in things like extras but I have flown Yak-52, Slingsby T67 firefly, CITABRIA, Decathlon, Tiger Moth, Stearman, C150 aerobat.

 

 

Crump is talking about very complicated issues which just cant be added to the game at the early relase but have good arguments and knowledge.

 

If you say so.

 

What you have ?

 

I'll have a whiskey thanks

[Sternjaeger]

Hmmm bongo...

 

Your example is just bad.

There is a big difference between aerobatic display and manouver combat...

 

how exactly? 

I'm simply gobsmacked to see that people with alleged flying experience don't seem to understand what Bongo and I are talking about..

[Crump]

 

how exactly? 

 

 

Planning, duration, mental preparedness, adrenaline, fatigue.........

 

Those are just a few of the differences.

 

And before you say there is adrenaline when doing aerobatics....yes there is but nothing on the level of realization someone is going to die in the next minutes of combat.

[DD_bongodriver]

The typical time a WWII pilot actually spent in a dogfight was minutes, most of the flight was mundane, they were mentally prepared for their task through training and almost certainly they knew what they were likely to experience as military pilots, adrenaline......yes the amazing natural hormone that is designed specifically to enhance a humans fight or flight performance, the typical competition aerobatic pilot is not really fighting for life so is likely not to benefit from it's effects as much.

[MiloMorai]

What you haven't flown your Extra 300 yet Crumpp?

 

Unlike bongo who flies commercial, what commercial flying have you done?

[Sternjaeger]

..and how are you planning to implement such features in a fair way Crump?

 

Let's try and break the factors down:

 

1) physical tiredness: sitting in a cramped cockpit for hours is not pleasant. Turbulence, cold temperatures, sunlight, breathing oxygen.. it all adds up to your tiredness. But how can you simulate that?

 

2) stress: flying combat missions is stressing because of fear, concentration levels and because you saw awful stuff, or you were in extremely stressful situations (ever heard the story of the P-47 pilot who flew his way back with a Fw-190 on his tail, who shot the heck out of the Jug, and all the pilot could do was duck and fly as fast as he could? The state of the pilot and the cockpit were quite sorry, when he managed to land at last..)

 

3) G-tolerance: we all have different tolerances and experience, why do we have to use an average?

 

The question here is whether we're simulating the flight or the flight AND the pilot.. you see what I mean?

Edited November 13, 2013 by Sternjaeger

[DD_bongodriver]

Crump flies one of these.

 

[Crump]

..and how are you planning to implement such features in a fair way Crump?

 

Let's try and break the factors down:

 

1) physical tiredness: sitting in a cramped cockpit for hours is not pleasant. Turbulence, cold temperatures, sunlight, breathing oxygen.. it all adds up to your tiredness. But how can you simulate that?

 

2) stress: flying combat missions is stressing because of fear, concentration levels and because you saw awful stuff, or you were in extremely stressful situations (ever heard the story of the P-47 pilot who flew his way back with a Fw-190 on his tail, who shot the heck out of the Jug, and all the pilot could do was duck and fly as fast as he could? The state of the pilot and the cockpit were quite sorry, when he managed to land at last..)

 

3) G-tolerance: we all have different tolerances and experience, why do we have to use an average?

 

The question here is whether we're simulating the flight or the flight AND the pilot.. you see what I mean?

 

 

The averages already determined by the NATO studies.

^{So know it is very difficult to "see what you mean", games have been "simulating" flight and the pilot since conception.}

[71st_AH_Hooves]

..and how are you planning to implement such features in a fair way Crump?

 

Let's try and break the factors down:

 

1) physical tiredness: sitting in a cramped cockpit for hours is not pleasant. Turbulence, cold temperatures, sunlight, breathing oxygen.. it all adds up to your tiredness. But how can you simulate that?

 

2) stress: flying combat missions is stressing because of fear, concentration levels and because you saw awful stuff, or you were in extremely stressful situations (ever heard the story of the P-47 pilot who flew his way back with a Fw-190 on his tail, who shot the heck out of the Jug, and all the pilot could do was duck and fly as fast as he could? The state of the pilot and the cockpit were quite sorry, when he managed to land at last..)

 

3) G-tolerance: we all have different tolerances and experience, why do we have to use an average?

 

The question here is whether we're simulating the flight or the flight AND the pilot.. you see what I mean?

I don't think you can, its just too subjective and too realistic.  This is a game after all. 

 

Redout, blackout, injured, and fatigue (like i suggested earlier with a black and white fade)  with degraded control ability for each state   would be about the limit i think the public would take.  But a fatigue limit would be a new feature. 

 

Someone mentioned that a suppression system from near miss rounds could be implemented, but the end result of those tracers is aggressive maneuvering, that can lead to the fade of stamina represented as black and white.  Honestly thats about as subjective as you would be able to get before getting embroiled in "WTF" wars. 

 

The effect would need some tweaking but I would make it err on the side of a conditioned pilot.

[NZTyphoon]

So, if such recommendations are implemented, many of us could be looking like this:

 

because of G-string forces?

 

 

 

That ain't so bad...

[Sternjaeger]

My Thorp T18.jpg

 

 

 

The averages already determined by the NATO studies.^{So know it is very difficult to "see what you mean", games have been "simulating" flight and the pilot since conception.}

The averages are good for your manuals and theory..

[Venturi]

I think a better approximation to ww2 sustained Gs would be something like this.... notice, the duration of time and amount of Gs the pilot is careful to maintain so as to complete 180deg turns at 475mph... Not an aerobatics flyer doing 2-3sec snap rolls, at less than 200mph...

 

Now imagine violent barrel rolls, harder yanking and banking, violent attempts to locate the target/threat, etc... at this speed, etc

[Caudron431]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-XH1YcPCeQ

That's a good video!

 

I agree the pilot is fit, probably in better shape than most younger WW2 pilots though.

 

Perhaps the greatest differences are:

 

this pilot although older (but who cares when we are talking about ability and experience anyway) has probably more flight hours than any WW2 pilot particulary on his type, had a good sleep before flight, has a much healthier lifestyle (aka can eat quality meals) is relaxed and does not experience prolonged fear, did not experience the loss of a wing mate.

 

But also, the pilot performs planned maneuvers, in a planned program, in a known environmenent (he almost does'nt need any situational awareness at all), in a light overspecialized-in-violent-maneuvers aircraft, he can move his head as often mentionned be could he track or identify if needed? Also probably has a lot of scientific/medical knowledge about flight limitations, which results in better understanding of physiological issues.

 

Most importantly: the challenge is against himself, which is completely inaccurate when compared to WW2. It is much easier to control black out when one does not have to track, and especially when one does not have to match the maneuver of another aircraft, after being surprised, by a clever move. This is obviously not ACA, but  artistic sports (no offense, i respect guys with such great skills). It is easier not to go beyond your own known limits in a one man show, trying to maneuver to match another skilled pilot's combat maneuver is completely different.

Edited November 14, 2013 by RegRag1977

[Blakhart]

Ehhh bongo you have so much experience in the air and you cant understand the aim of the topic ???

 

Without well implemented pilot limits its more a arcade game than a simulation.

Of course Crump is going a bit too far with his theories at this stage of project but he has a lot of interesting things to say.

Ok, Its your opinion I hope at least you try to be impartial.

 

 

 

At this point I see you guys forgot about the main problem in this topic.

 

Read caerfully.

 

 

 

The only implemtation has been, so far, blackout, redout and bullet/projectile injury.  As an example, should one attack a 109 and surprise him then he will often bunt voilently and avoid damage, particularly with low calibre weapons,  stay on his tail and the bunting from some simmers is extreme, up and down they go like madmen - it is successful because you can't hit them with a decent burst like this.  But upon examining guncam footage this never ever happened, even when under gunfire and this is not surprising since in the real World the pilot would be severly injured from performing such movements.  Furthermore, in combat moves we can presently look around with TrackIR and stare over our shoulders whilst performing high G moves.  This is not really possible, the G load puts the passenger under such strain that they cannot just look about themselves.

 

 

1. The impairment and limitation that increased G load puts onto a pilot, physically.  That means turning your head and just doing things.  Presently, with TrackIR and key binding, I can pull the very edge of blackout and still flick switches and look about everywhere as under 0g.  This is not possible in real life and shouldn't be possible in game.  I can speak from personal experience that the moment the G load comes on (and @StG2xgitarrist it is instant and heavy to control input, the moment you move that stick 1 inch the load appears, just like the moment you hit a dip or rise in the road at speed you feel it immediately)

2. There is no injury for such violence.  Real life pilots have learned their limits so do not injure themselves from manuovers (can never spell it) which is perhaps why, as I indicated in the oP, that guncam footage never displays voilent escape moves (because in reality it's not possible) and Eric Brown's IL2 inputs were so slow, not using even 60% of the possible rates of attitude change, because they reflect what the pilot would actually manage or perform in real life.

3. There is no injury for heavy landings, ditching etc - This happened a lot, I've read it a lot in biographies.

 

All of these implementations one would think initially would spoil what we know, but actually would make it all more realistic since it would affect behaviour.

 

I was heavily involved in the USL for IL2 1946 for a number of years and this used a bespoke scoring system.  It was set up so that realistic behaviour was rewarded,  ultimately leading to pilots behaving like they would in real life (eg trying to get home if damaged).  Those squads which did not tended to lose the battle.  Implementation of the ideas encapsulated in this thread would do exactly the same thing.

 

 

Those are main problems at now:

 

- bad calculated negative G influence on pilot & plane  - impossible to damage engine or weapons, you can shoot even with high neg or positive G )

 

- extreme virtual pilot toughness -   1. Pilot have too much controll under plane ( he can switch everything in same short time like in normal flight and this is main factor which changes aerial combat in to a Street fighter or Mortla Combat, where you just need to use correct combo to finish enemy...

 

                                                              2. After long G-fight virtual pilot dont feel exhausted, have same full controll

 

 

 

Read this caerfully and then go the the game and TEST IT.

 

 

Without additional experience in the game your all experience from the real isnt so important.

 

You can have even 4000 hours and eat a sandwich with 10 Gs but if you dont feel on own skin this stupid features in the game you wont UNDERSTAND the aim of this topic and some arguments.

 

 

 

Now you are going to details and start unnecessary quarrel. You can start it again when we will see some green light from the producers.

 

We wont change the game at now with words...

 

 

This is my last post, another will be a waste of time...

[DD_bongodriver]

I think a better approximation to ww2 sustained Gs would be something like this.... notice, the duration of time and amount of Gs the pilot is careful to maintain so as to complete 180deg turns at 475mph... Not an aerobatics flyer doing 2-3sec snap rolls, at less than 200mph...

 

Now imagine violent barrel rolls, harder yanking and banking, violent attempts to locate the target/threat, etc... at this speed, etc

is relevant how? I can 'imagine' all of that but it is nothing like the OP's original posed problem, the aerobatic pilot comes much closer to that.

 

That's a good video!

 

I agree the pilot is fit, probably in better shape than most younger WW2 pilots though.

 

Perhaps the greatest differences are:

 

this pilot although older (but who cares when we are talking about ability and experience anyway) has probably more flight hours than any WW2 pilot particulary on his type, had a good sleep before flight, has a much healthier lifestyle (aka can eat quality meals) is relaxed and does not experience prolonged fear, did not experience the loss of a wing mate.

 

But also, the pilot performs planned maneuvers, in a planned program, in a known environmenent (he almost does'nt need any situational awareness at all), in a light overspecialized-in-violent-maneuvers aircraft, he can move his head as often mentionned be could he track or identify if needed? Also probably has a lot of scientific/medical knowledge about flight limitations, which results in better understanding of physiological issues.

 

Most importantly: the challenge is against himself, which is completely inaccurate when compared to WW2. It is much easier to control black out when one does not have to track, and especially when one does not have to match the maneuver of another aircraft, after being surprised, by a clever move. This is obviously not ACA, but  artistic sports (no offense, i respect guys with such great skills). It is easier not to go beyond your own known limits in a one man show, trying to maneuver to match another skilled pilot's combat maneuver is completely different.

 

No, in no way is this middle aged fat guy in better shape than a 20 year old no matter what era they are from, some of this is a bit 'clutch at straws' now, we don't know if this pilot had a curry the night before and is ready to crap through the eye of a needle, it's getting quite bizarre, I play Skyrim if I want a bit of RPG action.

 

Ehhh bongo you have so much experience in the air and you cant understand the aim of the topic ???

 

Without well implemented pilot limits its more a arcade game than a simulation.

Of course Crump is going a bit too far with his theories at this stage of project but he has a lot of interesting things to say.

 

Ok, Its your opinion I hope at least you try to be impartial.

 

 

 

 

Now you are going to details and start unnecessary quarrel. You can start it again when we will see some green light from the producers.

 

We wont change the game at now with words...

 

 

This is my last post, another will be a waste of time...

 

Yes, of course I am impartial, it is because of my flying experience that I understand everything being discussed and can validate my own opinion.

 

Well implemented pilot limits is subjective.

 

is trying to model a pilot based on  how well he has eaten, a bit grumpy, sad because his black Lab was killed when the CO ran over him, tired, really relevant? how many factors need to be taken into account before we can truly arrive at a universally agreed model? maybe we should give him tin legs too, or a dark and mysterious back story........no this isn't weird at all.

 

Well....good luck, I sincerely hope nobody ever considers going to this level.

Edited November 14, 2013 by DD_bongodriver

[Blakhart]

^my language mistake ( now I saw this, I`m still learning  ) ;//

 

Sorry ,should be:

 

Now you all are going to details and start unnecessary quarrel. You can start it again when we will see some green light from the producers.

[Caudron431]

 

 

 

No, in no way is this middle aged fat guy in better shape than a 20 year old no matter what era they are from, some of this is a bit 'clutch at straws' now, we don't know if this pilot had a curry the night before and is ready to crap through the eye of a needle, it's getting quite bizarre, I play Skyrim if I want a bit of RPG action.

No he's not in better shape, true, but that was enough to perform the artistic flying he did which has nothing to do with actual ACM as i tried to explain in my post, but perhaps you did not want to read that part If you do not consider healthy lifestyle as an important element (compared to an actual pilots life during WW2) perhaps you are not really interested in WW2 combat simulation? Don't know...

 

You posted:

"we don't know if this pilot had a curry the night before and is ready to crap through the eye of a needle, it's getting quite bizarre, I play Skyrim if I want a bit of RPG action."

 

You got me well there!

 

The only thing i can answer you is that it is getting quite bizarre, because if you wanted to roleplay the "middle age fat aerobatic pilot" you would fly flight simulator or Xplane, obviously not IL2.

 

WW2 pilots had a very different lifestyle, their job was not performing artistic flying, it was much more complex than that. Read again if you really want to understand what i meant:

 

 

"Perhaps the greatest differences are:

 

this pilot although older (but who cares when we are talking about ability and experience anyway) has probably more flight hours than any WW2 pilot particulary on his type, had a good sleep before flight, has a much healthier lifestyle (aka can eat quality meals) is relaxed and does not experience prolonged fear, did not experience the loss of a wing mate.

 

But also, the pilot performs planned maneuvers, in a planned program, in a known environmenent (he almost does'nt need any situational awareness at all), in a light overspecialized-in-violent-maneuvers aircraft, he can move his head as often mentionned be could he track or identify if needed? Also probably has a lot of scientific/medical knowledge about flight limitations, which results in better understanding of physiological issues.

 

Most importantly: the challenge is against himself, which is completely inaccurate when compared to WW2. It is much easier to control black out when one does not have to track, and especially when one does not have to match the maneuver of another aircraft, after being surprised, by a clever move. This is obviously not ACM, but  artistic sports (no offense, i respect guys with such great skills). It is easier not to go beyond your own known limits in a one man show, trying to maneuver to match another skilled pilot's combat maneuver is completely different."

Edited November 14, 2013 by RegRag1977

[DD_bongodriver]

This notion that aerobatics is irrelevant because it's 'artistic' is probably the most bizarre, I never realised we had artistic 'g' forces.....what are they? post modern impressions?

 

The only thing i can answer you is that it is getting quite bizarre, because if you wanted to roleplay the "middle age fat aerobatic pilot" you would fly flight simulator or Xplane, obviously not IL2.
 

 

Well yes true, but who wants to role play at all? I mean what is the point of the discussion, are we really asking to simulate a pilot who can't even turn an aircraft because he is emaciated from eating only boiled rice and has no strength? maybe we should give him blurry vision from all the crying he does, how about we simulate a pilot that decides war if futile and deserts his unit.

 

did he lose a wingman?............did he lose his best friend in a car crash? ,,,,,,,,maybe he eats English food?

[von_Tom]

 

Die then, your plane nor tricks shouldnt let you survive combat with more than 3-4 enemies.

 

 

 

Was it Rall that wrote about combat with a red nosed Yak (Normandie-Niemen maybe) where a schwarm or more just couldn't shoot him down because of the pilot's skill, so left him to go home?

 

Hood

[Caudron431]

This notion that aerobatics is irrelevant because it's 'artistic' is probably the most bizarre, I never realised we had artistic 'g' forces.....what are they? post modern impressions?

 

 

Well yes true, but who wants to role play at all? I mean what is the point of the discussion, are we really asking to simulate a pilot who can't even turn an aircraft because he is emaciated from eating only boiled rice and has no strength? maybe we should give him blurry vision from all the crying he does, how about we simulate a pilot that decides war if futile and deserts his unit.

 

did he lose a wingman?............did he lose his best friend in a car crash? ,,,,,,,,maybe he eats English food?

 

What is artistic G forces? Please tell us if you are serious: i did not talk about that. You will notice that it is you yourself that is speaking about this, probably as a way to ridiculize my point and to hide your lack of arguments, (which is good tactics by the way). Frankly, if you are an honnest guy and not just wanting to discredit my point of view by lying about what i actually said, please do quote me exactly when i mentionned "artistic G forces"? It is such a dishonnest way to summarize my post that i hardly believe somebody like you with your flying knowledge and experience did it. Please tell me you are not serious.

 

But if you are it is probably because i did not explain myself adequately.

 

Artistic aerobatics are not the same as Air Combat Maneuvers, can you understand that, or is it for you the same? Sports is not Combat.

 

Artistic flying is a good but incomplete exemple, at this point it is irrelevent. Artistic flying does not require situational awareness, you don't need to track a target, you don't have to identify, you don't have to match another pilot in a different aircraft that wants to kill you,  you fly in a sterile and totally controlled environment, flying a completely adapted to the task and easy to fly aircraft. Everything is predictable to the point that you only have to check for big fat point of reference like hills, roads, airfield... Performing artistic aerobatics, you can forget everything that define air combat, you don't mind if you are incapacitated, you don't have to track, to check, to identify, to report location of enemy aircraft above unknown territory, you don't have to match the enemy's performance and skills, you don't have to aim precisely... In such a asepticized environment you can pay the price of high G because you are not in a combat situation, you don't have to defeat or to survive, you don't need situational awareness, everything is predictable.

When i say artistic it is to underline the characteristics of the environment, as you well know, no need to invent YOUR notion of "artistic G" to discredit me, lol, you'll make yourself no good by behaving this way. This is not how we should discuss this problem. Let's just try not to lie about other's posts.

To summarize, one can in a show pull or push the G, because one has not to perform an actual fighter pilots tasks. And the show is similar to artistic sports, not combat. Sorry to tell you this, but your  "artistic G" concept is not post modern, it is an elaboration of your own mind, perhaps it comes from the (dishonnest) rethoric tactics you use to make people think that all that disagrees with you are stupid! this is lame, i can only hope you were joking...

 

You mentioned roleplay first, i repreated it to show you how vain the analogy was, by using the same type of sentence you throw at others. Strange that you don't like it when it comes back to you?

 

Roleplay is not for a sim, if you had followed the thread instead of joking and showing bad faith against some posters you seem to hate, you would have understand what was at stake here. I mentionned some aspects of the life of a WW2 pilot to show how different his daily life was different from the sunday aerobatic pilot living a healthy life. Do you understand now? The point was that if possible it would be great to use this to build the pilot model, taking into account that a WW2 pilot is not physically similar to a nowadays sports flyer. And that should be remembered when building the averages (they should be lower than an aerobatic pilots ones).

 

Your daily lifestyle as a great impact on your performance both intellectual and physical: that should be taken into account when building the averages needed in the BOSpilots model.

 

I hope you get my point now, i suspect you did at first....But in the doubt, just in case you are honest,  i had to clarify.

[DD_bongodriver]

What is artistic G forces?

 

I asked first, it was your idea.

 

Artistic aerobatics are not the same as Air Combat Maneuvers, can you understand that, or is it for you the same? Sports is not Combat

 

If an aerobatic pilot pulls a 4 g loop is it different to a combat pilot puilling a 4 g loop?........because it is 'artistic'?

 

 

Artistic flying does not require situational awareness

 

'ALL' flying requires situational awareness, even a student on his first solo needs to be situationally aware.........I hope you are not a pilot.

 

enough of this garbage.

[FlatSpinMan]

Too many people are acting like jerks in this thread and it is getting really, really tired.

 

 

 

RegRag made no mention of artistic g-forces. His first post was perfectly clear to me, and his clarification doubly so.

His point was that the demands of reacting under G-forces are significantly different between a modern and highly experienced pilot doing a planned aerobatics display, and someone who is engaged in real aerial combat with all the attendant physical, psychological and mental stresses and demands.

No one is saying that aerobatic flying does not require situational awareness.

[FlatSpinMan]

I disagree with one comment and you decide that? Take a break for a while, man. You're taking things too seriously and personally.

Also, you highlighted one sentence in a post which explained fully what he meant.