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No.501_Osprey

Pilot Limitation under load and stress

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Thorp T-18 right? You have an O-360 under the bonnet I guess? Did you have the updated fuel filler cap on it?

 

I flew formation in a Vans with it, fast little thing! The owner told me it can be a bit temperamental on landing and that the stall is a bit abrupt, but above all that with the big Lycoming the weight is pushed to the limit, but it's also fun to fly and it's cheap to run!

 

I wanted to try it but I couldn't fit in it, it's SO tight! :-(

 

Back on topic: the weight you have on your head is surely gonna give you some sore neck, but it still remains you can turn your head whilst pulling Gs (well at least I do!). 

 

Surely you need to get used to do it in order to make it more or less effortless, but then again we're talking about something that it's gonna be really awkward to implement in a sim I think :-/

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Oh man, I could have so much fun making a double entendre out of that......not pretty but tight, and is a lot of fun.....just don't let your friends catch you in her.

 

Anyway, you can still turn your head under 'g', it simply becomes more difficult the higher the load and people with short fat necks have an easier time of it, no point trying to simulate the effect on the pilot as there is so much variation in humans and their abilities.

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Oh man, I could have so much fun making a double entendre out of that......not pretty but tight, and is a lot of fun.....just don't let your friends catch you in her.

 

Anyway, you can still turn your head under 'g', it simply becomes more difficult the higher the load and people with short fat necks have an easier time of it, no point trying to simulate the effect on the pilot as there is so much variation in humans and their abilities.

 

are you saying I got a fat neck?!  :dry:  :biggrin:

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 owner told me it can be a bit temperamental on landing and that the stall is a bit abrupt

 

The CAFE APR sums it up nicely.

 

 

Its fine handling qualities, good maneuvering and strong stability qualities show it to be a very well thought out design. It has simple systems that should be easy to maintain and operate. In my opinion it is a "pilot's" airplane. It has quick responses which make it fun to fly but which also re-quire paying attention as pilot. There can be no snoozing during landings or at high angle-of-attack maneuvering flight. If one observes these precautions, it is an airplane that can produce many years of pleasure and satisfaction.

 

http://members.eaa.org/home/flight_reports/thorp.html

 

Mine has the O-360A1A with a Hartzell CSP. 

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Gentelmans.

 

At this point I only see that you have experience in the air but you completly dont know what kind of problem is that "G-load" in sims, or how it looks in practice.

Its not so complicated and in sim shouldnt be implemented with such details.

 

This discussion is now more like in this joke.

 

Do you know how to recognize pilot on a party ?

You dont need to.

He will present himself.

 

I`m kindly asking again, do you have enough experience from il2 series to understand why Osprey started this discussion ???

 

If no, just show up in HyperLobby, find me in the chat room and I will be glad to create a priv server and show you what is the main pain in the a## with fictional "g-load".

Edited by =LG=Blakhart

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I don't agree at all.  If that were the case then why is G put in at all?

 

I am really referring to 2 things, because I can see there is a misunderstanding from some people still.

 

1. Violent moves injuring the pilot. StG2xgitarrist mentions airshow pilots not being injured - well of course not,  they are performing ridiculous bunts up and down, pulling and pushing on the stick are they?  That is exactly the point - real pilots don't do this because they can't.

2. G force restricting pilot head movement.  Airshow pilots are not trying to shake a bandit off their tails,  they follow a strict plan.  Fact is,  under G load, you can't be swinging your head about to the same degree as under no load.

 

Why are these two things so hard to implement?

 

 

For Osprey's point 1.  Use onset rate and exposure times to disorientate pilots.  A blurred and shaking screen would alert the player and serve to disorientate.   Make it selectable like complex engine management so players have a choice to be realistic or not.

 

For Osprey's point 2. Allow a specific degree of head movement under G based on a simple function.  The more acceleration, the less angular motion a player is allowed at full speed. Is that difficult to simulate?  Again scalable for the "twitch and shoot" crowd.

 

I love that expression, "twitch and shoot".  Somebody used it on these forums and watching my daughter play Call of Duty on her playstation, and that term so accurately describes it!  :)

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Gentelmans.

 

At this point I only see that you have experience in the air but you completly dont know what kind of problem is that "G-load" in sims, or how it looks in practice.

Its not so complicated and in sim shouldnt be implemented with such details.

 

This discussion is now more like in this joke.

 

Do you know how to recognize pilot on a party ?

 

You dont need to.

He will present himself.

 

I`m kindly asking again, do you have enough experience from il2 series to understand why Osprey started this discussion ???

 

If no, just show up in HyperLobby, find me in the chat room and I will be glad to create a priv server and show you what is the main pain in the a## with fictional "g-load".

 

your assumptions are somewhat hurried... we probably know a great deal more than the average simmer as it happens, because we have experience both in simulators and real life, but some people can't deal with the fact that there will always be limits to what a simulation can bring, and tricks to simulate stuff that can't be implemented (i.e. G effects, which affect all of us differently) generate awkward solutions.

 

It's not that easy to implement the physical aspect of the "flying experience" mainly because it's an individual one and varies with age, experience, health etc...

Edited by Sternjaeger

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My assumptions have strong arguments and years of experience, so:

 

1. Answer the question about exp in il2 with un-natural neg-pos g manouvers.

 

2. Do you have experience from simulated manouver combat or only from few loops and barrels on climbing ???

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1) sorry, I have no patience to go back and find the question: can you elaborate it again?

 

2) my experience is pretty much 15 years of flight simulation AND real flying, the last 7 of which have also involved aerobatic flying. So yes, I'm pretty confident when I talk about aerobatics, flying and physics/mechanics. I'm sorry if it comes out as cocky, but I've been through this process SO many times and at some point you grow tired of it. I have nothing against you of course, I'm only saying that people that don't have actual flying experience should trust people who do a bit more: this is not about who's better, it's about making our sim better. We can all contribute, but we all need to know where we stand and what we can contribute with. 

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Thats why I`m asking about virtual exp in il2 series... :dry:

 

I see you have a lot to say about reality but dont know virtual details so you cant understand Osprey`s main point...

 

1. Go back few posts up.

 

2. I simply asked about simulated manouver combat and you are talking about yourself. :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

So I can predict you never had pleasure to participate in such event...

So how you can talk so much about this ???

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I love the idea of stamina for the pilot. Maybe they could even have a little virtual gym at the airfield so my pilot could workout . Nothing fancy, just a treadmill and some free weights.

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Thats why I`m asking about virtual exp in il2 series... :dry:

 

I see you have a lot to say about reality but dont know virtual details so you cant understand Osprey`s main point...

 

1. Go back few posts up.

 

2. I simply asked about simulated manouver combat and you are talking about yourself. :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

So I can predict you never had pleasure to participate in such event...

So how you can talk so much about this ???

 

right, I don't know if it's a language barrier issue here or what... let me try and make things clear:

 

when we talk about limitations imposed by G load and stress, you have to appreciate that there are SO many things to take into account:

 

1) the person's identity as such: who are you when are you flying in your sim? A 20-odd years old well trained, eagle-eyed pilot like it was in the time or your real self? This is important because each of us have their peculiarities: size, weight, eyesight.. 

2) how do you implement the limitations? I personally think that even having Track IR is a form of advantage if we don't all have it.. 

3) another question for you: how do you move your body in the cockpit? Pilots used to duck when shot at, shift sideways to look or avoid being hit.. whilst now our "pilot" is just a puppet in the cockpit... 

 

you see what I mean? 

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We can`t and don`t need to demand from the producers such detailed procedures, especially at the begin of project.

 

Asking about full simulation of body behave in sim is an asking for a miracle. Everyhing is possible but demands time, work and sacrifice.

 

 

The main and crucial problem with "G-load" in sims is un natural pilot&plane abilities to recive both positive and negative G at the same time without any limits.

 

Its completly like Osprey said.

 

When you have on your tail enemy equiped mainly with guns 0,7 - 13mm just push -3-4 G even with 300-400 km/h.

You wont feel too much discomfort.

Full control on plane, only some red screen in few seconds which dont change your moves in the virtual cokpit.

 

If enemy is still on you push positive, then negative and so on.

Its extremely hard to hit such target and you waste a lot of time till you get some hits and even you finally "smoked" bandit you have another enemy on tail...

 

I know how the G works.

 

1-2g, not big difference,

3-4g -enjoyable, still full control

4-6g pure fun, hand on throttle and stick, small problems with head movement

      (and even without g-suit is not a problem)

7-8g hand on throttle and stick, anti G-manouver, heeee-tssssss, heeee- tsssssss, heeee-tsssssss :)

       moving head, hard or impossible

 

In sims

 

1-4g no difference

5-6g short period of time, decrease power add some flaps---> full control of plane&body

7-8g less control , head moving 100%

 

 

Now pilots are more like rocks, 1 minute or 10 with 5-6 g in spiral from 7k its not a problem...

 

Those are main problems at now:

 

- bad calculated negative G influence on pilot & plane  - impossible to damage engine or weapons, you can shoot even with high neg or positive G )

 

- extreme virtual pilot toughness -   1. Pilot have too much controll under plane ( he can switch everything in same short time like in normal flight and this is main factor which changes aerial combat in to a Street fighter or Mortla Combat, where you just need to use correct combo to finish enemy...

 

                                                              2. After long G-fight virtual pilot dont feel exhausted, have same full controll 

 

 

We can continue and share our experience, post pictures, talk about planes and argue who have right, but till we wont have and green light from 1c&777 staff its a empty discussion.

Edited by =LG=Blakhart

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LOL @ heeee-tssssss, heeee- tsssssss, heeee-tsssssss :)

 

Pilot fatige simulating is possible but must be done right of course.

 

- "Warm up" for Gs (conditioning body with previous G loads)

- Exhaustion (after more and more hard pulled Gs pilot gets tired is not able to pull as much as before - quicker tunnel-vision)

- Smooth OR rapid instant G-onsets (G-locs) makes a huuuge difference

- Negative Gs are pain in da ARSE in real, but in IL-2 the "funky chicken move" is TOO easy (pull push pull push)

- etc etc too lazy to writre more :wacko:

 

The best way (imo) would be to study medical millitary briefings (report and studies) and conclude a reasonable modeling from it for the sim (i think i have good papers somewhere...will look).

Edited by A-S
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Ah, I see what you mean now Blackhart! 

 

Yes I agree, although your "how the G works" is a bit approximative. Tolerance to Gs varies from person to person and can improve with time (or get worse, depending on so many factors).

 

And you can move your head even at 7Gs, it's just a strain that you learn to compensate and do in the right way.

 

you need to compensate (or do heee-tssss lol, loved that) on a sustained 4 G as well. Everything is 4 times heavier, 4 times. You need to keep your hands on the controls, they'll literally hang from the controls and try to come off. 

 

You can build up your tolerance, but it's a demanding task. The problem is how we model this in a fair way? We're all different.

 

Again, another factor to keep in mind is the difference between sustained and peak Gs. You can withstand a 1/2 sec peak of 10G, but a 30-secs sustained 4 Gs is not enjoyable at all and will knock you out unless you're truly fit for it. And when I say fit I don't mean in good physical shape only, it's short people with high blood pressure that can withstand G better. I've seen and heard them laughing whilst pulling some heavy turns and me struggling at the back. 

For the record, the worst damage G Load can do is a nice bag of haemorrhoids normally. You wouldn't be pushing negative and pulling positive Gs because it's extremely uncomfortable, but it's not impossible as such. 

 

So yes, we can refine the G effects, but it would still be a "watered down" version of what it really is, and this would still affect the behaviour of sim pilots.

The best way to make things more realistic is to insert a nausea-simulator in the game with a USB interface  :biggrin:

Edited by Sternjaeger

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LOL @ heeee-tssssss, heeee- tsssssss, heeee-tsssssss :)

 

Pilot fatige simulating is possible but must be done right of course.

 

- "Warm up" for Gs (conditioning body with previous G loads)

- Exhaustion (after more and more hard pulled Gs pilot gets tired is not able to pull as much as before - quicker tunnel-vision)

- Smooth OR rapid instant G-onsets (G-locs) makes a huuuge difference

- Negative Gs are pain in da ARSE in real, but in IL-2 the "funky chicken move" is TOO easy (pull push pull push)

- etc etc too lazy to writre more :wacko:

 

The best way (imo) would be to study medical millitary briefings (report and studies) and conclude a reasonable modeling from it for the sim (i think i have good papers somewhere...will look).

 

Well, i previously said no to pilot limitations but, that kind of  simulating would be interesting indeed if done right. I hope devs will at least thinking about it.

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nsert a nausea-simulator in the game with a USB interface

 

:biggrin:

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 We're all different.

 

 

Which is why we have averages.

 

 

 they're not correct, that's the problem.

 

 

You mean the scientific investigations conducted by the worlds leading aviation authorities and Air Forces?

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Yes I agree, although your "how the G works" is a bit approximative. Tolerance to Gs varies from person to person and can improve with time (or get worse, depending on so many factors).

 

Yes there are many factors, true. But would it be OK to consider war, or let us say "WW2 environment", as a major factor. I think that if we consider the daily life of a WW2 pilot experiencing actual combat we could actually agree that tolerance to G (and to other things too actually) should be getting worse in the vast majority of cases (due to the actual war situation in which a ww2 pilots is, due to his knowledge, training etc...)?

This could be the reason why we would need "averages"?

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when sustained, yes, compensation works only for a certain level. Again, being short and with a higher blood pressure helps you being slightly more resistant.

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Yes there are many factors, true. But would it be OK to consider war, or let us say "WW2 environment", as a major factor. I think that if we consider the daily life of a WW2 pilot experiencing actual combat we could actually agree that tolerance to G (and to other things too actually) should be getting worse in the vast majority of cases (due to the actual war situation in which a ww2 pilots is, due to his knowledge, training etc...)?

This could be the reason why we would need "averages"?

 

yeah, but having an average is like not having a difference, you see what I mean? The physical/psychological element is completely removed from simulation, because it's not our life that is at stake. 

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Yes it is generic.

 

I would not call pulling 3 G's GOR comfortable either.  At 2.5 G's our "average" pilot is beginning to experience gray out effects.

 

attachicon.giffig4-6.gif

 

http://www.cavalrypilot.com/fm1-301/ch4.htm

Just a question, what would  the G tolerance be like in case of performing uncoordinated maneuvers (those one would use to escape obviously). Are they more difficult to tolerate or is it the same? Same question for being able to move the head and also when it comes to track. When we are talking G does it also take into consideration "lateral" G forces? Would "lateral" G be specific or to be considered just the same as normal G load for the organism?

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I think that if we consider the daily life of a WW2 pilot experiencing actual combat we could actually agree that tolerance to G (and to other things too actually) should be getting worse in the vast majority of cases

 

Absolutely they got worse in most cases.

 

Fatigue, Sleep deprivation, Heat and dehydration, illness, anxiety, and stress all reduce tolerances to acceleration.  In fact just 3% dehydration can render a G suit and straining maneuvers nearly ineffective for raising tolerance levels.

 

https://ke.army.mil/bordeninstitute/published_volumes/harshEnv2/HE2ch33.pdf

 

What someone can tolerate without serious effect on a nice sunny day in the aerobatic box has little in common with their tolerances when fighting for their life.

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Just a question, what would  the G tolerance be like in case of performing uncoordinated maneuvers (those one would use to escape obviously). Are they more difficult to tolerate or is it the same? Same question for being able to move the head and also when it comes to track. When we are talking G does it also take into consideration "lateral" G forces? Would "lateral" G be specific or to be considered just the same as normal G load for the organism?

You just have to imagine the blood as being forced around by the various force vectors and know its physiological effects to understand what it could feel like. In case of deliberately uncoordinated manoeuvres like the Lomchevak , what really suffers is your internal ear. Disorientation is much worse and takes longer to recover than a high-manoeuvre.

 

Tolerance is totally subjective: it's like when you go for a roller coaster ride and there's the one who gets out and feel sick and then one that rushes around for another ride!

Absolutely they got worse in most cases.

 

Fatigue, Sleep deprivation, Heat and dehydration, illness, anxiety, and stress all reduce tolerances to acceleration.  In fact just 3% dehydration can render a G suit and straining maneuvers nearly ineffective for raising tolerance levels.

 

https://ke.army.mil/bordeninstitute/published_volumes/harshEnv2/HE2ch33.pdf

 

What someone can tolerate without serious effect on a nice sunny day in the aerobatic box has little in common with their tolerances when fighting for their life.

Yep, that's why pilots were given amphetamines and Benzedrine before flights.. They squeezed them like sponges, and they resisted only because they were mostly young and well trained.

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Just a question, what would  the G tolerance be like in case of performing uncoordinated maneuvers (those one would use to escape obviously). Are they more difficult to tolerate or is it the same? Same question for being able to move the head and also when it comes to track. When we are talking G does it also take into consideration "lateral" G forces? Would "lateral" G be specific or to be considered just the same as normal G load for the organism?

Generally only the z axis has any real effect.

 

Problem with WWII air combat games is the fact the aircraft outperforms the man in it.  Aviation Physiology was in its infancy just like stability and control engineering. 

 

So in these games we see silly behaviors in all aspects of the aerial combat due to poor physiological modeling of the pilot.

 

You have the twitchy negative G dance to escape....no need to address...it is just plain stupid.  It ruins the game for many folks.  It is like watching my daughters "call of duty" online dancing like pieces of popcorn machine-gunning everything in sight.

 

The 20 second (or more) 3 plus G turn fights......6 seconds is about average to feel adverse effects of GOR.  15 seconds at 3 G GOR and many folks are in GLOC.  Those that are not are about as intellectually keen as a Chimpanzee.  Their body is in baroreceptor reflex and fighting to keep enough blood flowing to sustain itself.

 

Then you have the "boom and zoom" crowd swooping in at Vne to pull 10 (+) G's to make a high deflection snap shot.  7G/s onset rate gives you between .5 and 1 second of consciousness before GLOC.   The disorientation makes it silly to think the average pilot could even track a target to even point his finger at it much less fly a gun sight onto target.

Edited by Crump
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uncoordinated maneuvers

 

have the greatest effect on the airframe.  All aircraft are rated for acceleration loads on only one axis (usually the z axis) at a time for one acceleration.  Multiple axis loads reduce the limits.  If you tried that negative G flipping around you see online in many games, the result would be a bent aircraft and even engine damage.  Negative G load factor limits for the aircraft and human tolerance are much lower than the positive load limits.

 

Understand that an airframe is no different than a car suspension.  It is designed to flex and tolerate loads.  The more it flexes and the higher the loads it must absorb, the weaker it becomes.  It wears out just like a suspension.  That is why it is so import to adhere to things like gust penetration speeds. 

 

That is not including the fact it would be extremely uncomfortable for the pilot to perform. 

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this is going to be interesting with the way models are in this game: airframe flexibility will be taken into account, so I bet we will see a lot of warped wings and fuselages  :biggrin:

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:good: Thanks guys for the answers, it's very interesting, i really hope this new sim will somehow take into account the limits of the human body. I'm sure it would make the sim much more interesting.

 

@Crump thanks for the link, will read, looks very interesting.

Edited by RegRag1977
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.

 

You have the twitchy negative G dance to escape....no need to address...it is just plain stupid.  It ruins the game for many folks.  It is like watching my daughters "call of duty" online dancing like pieces of popcorn machine-gunning everything in sight.

 

 

:gamer:  LOLZ

 

Indeed, flaws regards and one can do things in a sim, which one would never even try in real. It can change many aspect in fights, from wrong "elbow-entries", no need to "work the piper" properly, "crazy-chicken" gundefense, you name it, the list is long.

I was sometimes amazed if i got a hold of IL-2 tracks from others (even some so known "Aces"). Didn´t look like "flying" at all often, but more like the "push-steering of a toy-car" in a virtual environment.

 

Why?, because it works :o: and that "justification!?" makes it even worse. :angry:

 

Something tells me that those "barbie-plastic-phantastic-maddox-physcis-plane" STUNTS will be punished with nasty consequences in BoS though :rolleyes:

Edited by A-S

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.

 

:gamer:  LOLZ

 

Indeed, flaws regards and one can do things in a sim, which one would never even try in real. It can change many aspect in fights, from wrong "elbow-entries", no need to "work the piper" properly, "crazy-chicken" gundefense, you name it, the list is long.

I was sometimes amazed if i got a hold of IL-2 tracks from others (even some so known "Aces"). Didn´t look like "flying" at all often, but more like the "push-steering of a toy-car" in a virtual environment.

 

Why?, because it works :o: and that "justification!?" makes it even worse. :angry:

 

Something tells me that those "barbie-plastic-phantastic-maddox-physcis-plane" STUNTS will be punished with nasty consequences in BoS though :rolleyes:

 

And this also leads/links to the joystick curves thread :)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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the main reason why it was possible in IL-2 is because airframes were treated like rigid structures that would break only with excessive speed or hard impact. 
ROF showed us that flexible, bendable airframes are possible, and I'm expecting the same thing will happen with the new IL-2. 
It was a simulation oversight which caused all the unrealistic behaviour we've seen, I'm sure the learning curve with this new product, even for the "experienced" guys, will be high.

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Sternjaeger,  whilst I understand your logic I don't understand why it's taken you this long to understand my point.  Blacky and Crumpp had it no problem.  According to your logic there is no point implementing blackout in IL2, at all,  because all people are different.  Yet I suspect you enable it.  Yes people are different, but let's just say, for the sake of improvement, that for this they are the same - at least for any developer having the guts to be pioneers of these kinds of features  - although they aren't, even FIFA on Playstation has had player fatigue included for over 10 years.

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Osprey, what I'm trying to say is that some people think of stress and fatigue as a linear thing, but in reality they're two independent and non linear parameters with a well defined difference. Let me see if I can make this more clear.

 

When flying with a sim we have to think of two pilots: one is the "virtual pilot", the other is the "sim pilot" (we're gonna call them VP and SP for short). 

 

VP and SP are two different entities, but VP does what SP tells him to do. 

 

VP is the one sitting in the virtual cockpit, in the virtual environment, and he's the one who's supposedly taking the direct stress, i.e. g-load and gunfire. These would affect him according to a certain stamina level and overall resistance that can be modelled I guess (albeit in a somewhat simplified algorithm). 

 

There are things that don't affect VP, i.e. fear, stress, panic, but these could affect SP (not to the "full realism" level of course, because if you die you don't die for real...)

 

 

Now if I have to fly a mission for two hours, SP will surely be affected by fatigue himself (although not like the real thing: there's no UV light to bother you, or cold, or uncomfortable cockpit), would this have to add to the "linear" fatigue of VP?

 

If SP gets his adrenaline pumping for some action or intensive moment, this won't affect VP at all, although it would technically... 

 

Look it's late and I'm not sure this is making any sense in the way I'm trying to explain it, but what I'm trying to say is that there is a discrepancy between what VP and SP feel and experience, and defining features like G tolerance, eyesight and other factors, have to stay out of the equation, hence giving you a somewhat "watered down" fatigue and stress version of real life. 

 

So what am I trying to say? I think we could somehow enhance the usual stuff we're used to when it comes to g-load, fatigue etc.... but it's not as easy and linear as one would think...

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but it's not as easy and linear as one would think...

 

 

While it was in its infancy during WWII, in the post war years it has become very well defined. 

 

There is plenty of data available defining the average tolerances, pathology, and symptoms.

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yes mate, the science is clear, and it helps us understanding things better, but using "average" is not what we're striving for, we already have "average" (even if applied wrongly, but that you can fix), you see what I mean? 

 

I would like to see something along the lines of "the more hours/experience you gather, the better your tolerance, stamina etc...", but it's something that can probably only work in career mode..

Edited by Sternjaeger

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Thoughts about "Redout" and "Negative G-forces".

 

In comparision:

 

The F-16 i.e has a "negative Angle of Attack" limiter during normal flight (max. -6° AoA), which consequently results in a negative G-force limitation of about -3G max at higher speeds and full stick forward. This limiter can be "disabled" with a "spring-loaded" MPO override switch infront of the thruttle position allowing more negative AoA to be executed, but it is ONLY used in deep-stall situations for recoveries as there are very good reasons for that negative AoA (and thus G´s) limitation during normal flight.

 

Not only prevents it the integrity or stability of the frame in flight, but the human body is much more sensitive regards negative G´s than postive G´s and thus the true limitation.

 

Red Out

  • While our body can tolerate positive G-forces up to a sustained nine Gs, tolerance to negative Gs is much lower. The first effect one will experience from negative Gs is a "red out." This happens because all of the blood is rushing towards your head, causing your vision to go red from the increased blood supply.

Burst Blood Vessels

  • If negative G-forces exceed about two or three Gs, then the increased blood in the head can cause burst blood vessels. This commonly happens in either the eyes or the brain as the vessels are overloaded by the extra blood being forced through them. This can lead to permanent blindness or brain damage. The effects apply instantly and fatal damage or loss of conciousness can occur after three to four seconds!

Loss of Consciousness

  • Constant changes from positive G to negative G can cause an individual to lose consciousness (Push-Pull-Push-Pull Gundefense). This is because the body's circulatory system cannot keep up with the constant changes in speed and direction of the flow of fluids, causing the heart to slow down and the individual to pass out. Once normal G-forces resume, the body will regain consciousness, albeit in a state of confusion.

 

In WW2 Fighters:

 

As we do not have modern electronical support in the negative G-force or AoA limitations in fighters of that area, the human body (or the "feel in your butt") are our pirmary limitations and "sensors" - besides the structural limits of the airframe itself of course.

 

Therefore we need to address the implications and the modelling of such forces properly, otherwise we will allow unrealitic "exploitations" and litterally RUIN the very basic principles of Basic Fighter Maneuvering aspects. The BFM you fly in a sim will not be the BFM you would be "forced" to apply in real.

Simple as that, period.

 

Offtopic quick: Sorry to say and no offense intented to anyone in specific, but as good as coders might be in their work of programing simulations, they sometimes don´t understand "dick" about flight or the expiriences of flight in certain aspects. Therefore, i personally appreciate it very much, that at least expirienced virt. combat pilots (the Flying Barans) are part of the consulting team for BoS. This gives me hope, that the mistakes of the past will not be repeated.

 

If one allows "gamers" to apply superman-like negative G-forces, they will use it ingame, regardless of realism!

If one allows "gamers" to use a "hubble-telescope" (FOV zoom) to aim and "pray and spray", they will use it ingame, regardless of realism or the risk to loose all flexibility and maybe advantage or energy, because it ENCOURAGES to do so.

 

I haven´t seen many pilots respecting (or even understanding) flight as such, who try to honor flight with realistic "flying" but i have seen many who apply all the methods "available", because "Victory" (in quotes) is all what matters in a competitve GAME, regardless of realism. Am i right ? ;)

 

A good IL-2 pilot once said to me (talking about such things):

 

"You can´t change the reality of it". or others excused with a "It´s just a game".

 

Yes, maybe true.

But we can simulate better and more thoughtfull realism in the future, because such overlooked flaws can change completly the dynamics of a FIGHT. One can and WILL do stuff in sims sometimes, one would not be able to do in real, or think more than twice about it in real before pulling such "stunts".

 

 

Respectfully

 

A.S

Edited by A-S
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