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SYN_Vander

So what can we expect from BoS Multiplayer?

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I have just returned from a weekend cycling in the Ardennes and read through all the reactions on the latest dev update. A major concern I see is the omission of Co-op when the game launches. I also see that a lot of ( potential ) players make ( quick ! ) conclusions based on wrong assumptions, because they think of multiplayer in IL2, modded IL2 and CloD. We know that BoS MP will be based on RoF MP. I have, over the last 3 -4 years, made hundreds of missions for RoF; singleplayer, campaigns, co-ops and dogfight missions, so I might be able to straighten out some issues and answer questions ppl have about what IS possible in RoF/BoS MP.

I will not try to play down the fact that we don't get Co-ops initially; there are a couple of features in ( RoF) co-op mission style that simply do not work in Dogfight mode. But I think there are also some advantages of Dogfight mode over ( Rof) Co-op that shouldn't be ignored.

 

So fire away if you have any questions! Please let's not try to compare the RoF/ BoS mission editor with previous titles all the time, but instead focus on what your requirements are for an online mission and how to realize them with RoF/BoS MP.

 

Example: I want to be able to quickly start an MP mission with my squad mates to practise dive bombing in the Stuka. I want to able to have several targets on the map and we should start close to each of the targets.

Answer: Yes, this is possible with (RoF / BoS) Dogfight server. 1. Anyone can start an MP mission from within the game. It will show in the global mission list and can have a password. 2. You can create multiple targets and multiple spawn points in the air in the ME. 3. You can define which planes are available, in what number and how quickly they become available again.

Edited by SYN_Vander
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Hello thanks for post.

 

I think the Coop is a  A Players(whit Ai or not) Vs Ai B

 

For example:

 

A Must Atack a Convoy and B will defend it.

 

A Follow his route, and near Airfields B has some Fighters patrolling. 

 

So A FIghters engage B Fighters and A Bombers attack Convoy

 

also whit some Fighters Patrols and Ground troops of A and B on the map for some mood.

Edited by .-RDS-.Manu_vc

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Hello thanks for post.

 

I think the Coop is a A Players(whit Ai or not) Vs Ai B

 

For example:

 

A Must Atack a Convoy and B will defend it.

 

A Follow his route, and near Airfields B has some Fighters patrolling.

 

So A FIghters engage B Fighters and A Bombers attack Convoy

 

also whit some Fighters Patrols and Ground troops of A and B on the map for some mood.

Hi Manu,

 

Yes this is possible. You can create multiple AI units in the ME and have them fly predefined waypoints and / or guard an area. You can also spawn enemy fighters when they needed, say the human players trigger them when they arrive in an area, or when a percentage of the AI planes has be destroyed. Triggers can also be used to start the AI only when players have actually spawned, so in effect you'll "pause" the mission until everyone is ready to spawn. Both human fighters and bombers can have the same spawn point or they can be separate.

 

Now one thing that is awkward in (RoF) Dogfight mode ( I said I was not going to down play): you can spawn multiple AI fighters, but you can't have them fly in a formation. So you have to simulate this by giving them the same waypoints. I hope this can be fixed for BoS?

Edited by SYN_Vander

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Im sure they will fix it,

 

and for the Airfield spawn A just a Delay of 15 min and the choices of the Bomber or Fighter for delays or Crash takeoffs, will be fine.

 

This is the EXACTLY the same as on an old il2, Just whitout the Pre-battle menu to select the plane.

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Thanks for spending your time to explain us if we dont understand what can we do with new 777 DF futures

 

I dont think co-op is only player team (A) vs AI team(B) its also Player team (A) vs other player team (B).

And good thing is that your co-op can always be played on same mission by only 1 player, 1 player on each side,  1-5 players on each side or maximum amount of players avilable by airplane slots on each side, without losing the airplanes or point of mission, as free slots are comanded by AIs in case not enough players, and player can control his flight of other 3 AIs if hes the only in that flight

 

Well my question to you is same as in my previous post in other topic:

 

Ok this is what i think its not posible to make in DF scenario, like it is posible in co-op, and maybe not as easy and fast.

 

 ...i hope you can help me see if this is posible to be recreated in RoF DF (afcorse with use of RoF type airplanes)

 

example;

 

8xHe111 + 8xHe-111 (only AI) + 4x109F on blue

4xLaGG (only AI) 4xLaGG + 4xYak1 on red

 

2 flights of 4xHe-111 (to be human controled) with also 2 flights of 4 AI only He-111, all flights separate by altitude of 200m and distance betwen them 500m-1000m. Placed in air at XY point on map, at 5000m with speed of 350k/h in four diamond formation of 4xHe-111 on hdg 167, and they route is visible on minimap if i wont to have that option on. 

4x109s at same time 20km from 16xHe-111 formation also in air at 6000m at speed of 450km/h hdg 35 in finger four formation, timed so even if there is no human on them they meet with 16xHe-111 over YX point on map, also route visible on minimap if i wont to have that on. All 12 of us with 8 AIs spawn at thouse selected points in formation and then mission start.

Its not same as placing one or 8 airstart bases at that point for He-111 or one to four airstart bases for 109s 20km from He111s bases, as i wont them to be in formation and all at same time, and if im only guy to control all 16 He-111 with comands as they are same Squadron as me. In case of Airstart bases i dont know how many time will take them (players joining to this coop) to get in formation, and i wont always to be 16 of He-111 and 4x109s even if there is 2 or 8 players for blue side able to fill thouse 8 avilable slots for He-111 and 4 for 109 for Blue side.

 

At same time on Red,  i would have 8xLagg3s to take of from 2 diferant airfield, 4 of them could be controled by humans on TY airfield and 4 AI only on MJ airfield all to met over TY airfeld the way i ploted them if they start at mission start time.

With 4xYak1 in air at XYZ place on map at 3000m with speed of 400k/h in line abrest formation on hdg 356, again all has to start at same time as mission starts, as i planed them to meet at some point at exact time over Stalingrad with thouse 8 Lagg3 taking of from far airfields, even if no humans are in them.

 

I could once have 8 human pilots or 20 in total on blue and on same time i could have none on red. For example 4 of us would just fly practice bombing with He-111 but would be intercepted by laggs and yaks.

 

This is easy and typical co-op scenario for testing, with airplanes in air so mission is faster, that i would finish making in il2 FMB in 15-30min max.

 

So is this also posible in RoF DF type mission hosted by some one

 

 

Key points;

1. all humans starts in air at correct places in formations at same time, so time is not lost on geting in formations as if it is DF map with 2-3 airstart bases at set altitudes with limited airplanes and payloads

2. even if in human avilable flights is no humans they start at same places i planed them as if there is humans in them 

3, number of airplanes is limited 16 bombers and 4 fighters on blue and 12 fighters on red

Edited by Yaklover

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Key points;

1. all humans starts in air at correct places in formations at same time, so time is not lost on geting in formations as if it is DF map with 2-3 airstart bases at set altitudes with limited airplanes and payloads

2. even if in human avilable flights is no humans they start at same places i planed them as if there is humans in them 

3, number of airplanes is limited 16 bombers and 4 fighters on blue and 12 fighters on red

 

Okay, let's see. 

 

1. No, this is only possible in co-op. Since in Dogfight players spawn individually, they have to form up first, before they continue as formation. This is obviously a draw-back, because it takes more time and you may need to co-ordinate more in TS/chat. You can however define multiple aircraft of the same type and give them different names "Flight A -1", "Flight A-2" etc. so players know what place they have in formation.

If you want to fly in formation with AI planes then you have to find them and form up. I would suggest to spawn the AI some distance "behind" the player spawn point the moment the first human spawns in the air.

 

2. No, not as simple as that. This is where co-op excels in its simplicity. Even with only one player you still have all the necessary aircraft in the air. However, it is possible to spawn AI aircraft depending on the number of humans that spawned (within a certain time frame) but it will be more complex to do. Something like: Everyone spawns within 3-5 minutes, form up/rendez-vous. The number of players actually spawned is counted. Then, when the spawn-time window has closed (to simulate co-op), depending on the number of players, the AI will spawn, filling up what is missing. I'm thinking this up as I type btw, but it should be possible.

 

3. Yes, number of AI planes can be pre-defined or dependent on actual player spawns (see previous point).

Edited by SYN_Vander

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Thanks for quick response,

 

So you have more options then in typical DF scenario IL2 guys are used to, this can somehow simulate most co-op situations but can not recreat some of them exactly like we have them in co-op, if i understod it correctly.

 

Why this human spawning in with his 3 AI (or 2 humans, one in no1 other no3 in flight, each controling one element with AI wingman) in selected flight is important to me (cant speek for other coop players) is , because in case i dont have enough humans to fill all slots i can split humans in my team to have under control flights of 4 airplanes and still with small amount of players do mission with lot of airplanes with good comand and control of them. That dosent work if i plan AI flight in DF way and then have spawn point/airbase next to them, i can not control thouse AIs in any situation, like i would if they are part of my Flight (like in co-op, campaign or single mission) even though with this good triger option recognise i spawned and insted of 4 there is now me and 3 AI, or 2 of us and 2AIs.

 

At first glance it may seam easy to just say co-ops can be replaced by new DF systems and i believe guys complaining about lack of co-op have good reson why they wont co-op mode in games.

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Thanks for quick response,

 

So you have more options then in typical DF scenario IL2 guys are used to, this can somehow simulate most co-op situations but can not recreat some of them exactly like we have them in co-op, if i understod it correctly.

 

Why this human spawning in with his 3 AI (or 2 humans, one in no1 other no3 in flight, each controling one element with AI wingman) in selected flight is important to me (cant speek for other coop players) is , because in case i dont have enough humans to fill all slots i can split humans in my team to have under control flights of 4 airplanes and still with small amount of players do mission with lot of airplanes with good comand and control of them. That dosent work if i plan AI flight in DF way and then have spawn point/airbase next to them, i can not control thouse AIs in any situation, like i would if they are part of my Flight (like in co-op, campaign or single mission) even though with this good triger option recognise i spawned and insted of 4 there is now me and 3 AI, or 2 of us and 2AIs.

 

At first glance it may seam easy to just say co-ops can be replaced by new DF systems and i believe guys complaining about lack of co-op have good reson why they wont co-op mode in games.

Yes, for smaller numbers of players, co-op mission work very well.

 

My hope is that the devs will add more features over time to the current MP so we can have slots again that can be filled in by AI. Or better, players can spawn in existing AI planes during a mission.

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Vander, This is not a question, but if you need persons to test out your BOS mission creations, I will be happy to participate on weekends, starting in the Fall.  :salute: MJ

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Q - 2. even if in human avilable flights is no humans they start at same places i planed them as if there is humans in them 

 

A - 2. No, not as simple as that. This is where co-op excels in its simplicity. Even with only one player you still have all the necessary aircraft in the air. However, it is possible to spawn AI aircraft depending on the number of humans that spawned (within a certain time frame) but it will be more complex to do. Something like: Everyone spawns within 3-5 minutes, form up/rendez-vous. The number of players actually spawned is counted. Then, when the spawn-time window has closed (to simulate co-op), depending on the number of players, the AI will spawn, filling up what is missing. I'm thinking this up as I type btw, but it should be possible.

 

 

 

 

 

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Q - 2. even if in human avilable flights is no humans they start at same places i planed them as if there is humans in them 

 

A - 2. No, not as simple as that. This is where co-op excels in its simplicity. Even with only one player you still have all the necessary aircraft in the air. However, it is possible to spawn AI aircraft depending on the number of humans that spawned (within a certain time frame) but it will be more complex to do. Something like: Everyone spawns within 3-5 minutes, form up/rendez-vous. The number of players actually spawned is counted. Then, when the spawn-time window has closed (to simulate co-op), depending on the number of players, the AI will spawn, filling up what is missing. I'm thinking this up as I type btw, but it should be possible.

 

Vander,

 

Suposing that you dont have practice with il-2 and your FMB, let me try explain the Q - 2 in a different way (nothing wrong with your answer, but perhaps the question lead to a misinterpretation).

 

In il-2 1946 (not MODded at least) when you place planes in FMB for a COOP mission they are ALL AI flights - but you mark some or all available to by controled by HUMAN player. The only difference for a SP mission is this, planes - some, all - can by marked to be take by HUMAN players - in fact market to by not take only for AI.

 

10sawyt.jpg

This II./KG 3 are a flight of some He 111 that dont have ticked the box "AI only".

 

This mean that they can be assumed by human players, but if they are not present the AI assume these planes and do the mission as designed.

 

In the above picture, I, as host host assume the Top Gunner position in the first He 111, and since I am the host I can hit FLY (only available for host player),  the mission start and the AI do the mission with me as a "passenger".  :)

 

If some friends join better, but is not impeditive for runing the mission if they dont came.

 

This COOP mission, default from the game allow 15 HUMAN players (Blue and Red) - but  the mimimum requite to by played as COOP is one. I know its against the COOP concept, but can be done.

This mission have anothers flights market as "AI only" as stated in the briefing (similar to the one described by OP), obviously players dont can take these flights.

 

vzao2d.jpg

 

In resume: this mean that il-2 COOP mission have some AI flights that can be take be HUMANS - from 1 to maximum number of planes not marked "AI only", not necessary the number of planes in the mission (case above).

 

And not that the mission have some  "HUMAN flights" that can by take by AI if HUMAN are not present. At first all flights of the mission are AI.

The final result is the same, but tecnically is different. And here people are talking about in do things of one game engine with a differente engine in the same way. 

 

COOP in il-2 1946 is a automated designed mission that can by played, partially or totally by HUMANS, obviously their "human" behavior can interfere in unexpected way at even a predictable result.  ;)

 

Sokol1

Edited by Sokol1

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Sokol1, I understand. In RoF, co-op missions work exactly the same (and I have created many IL2 co-op missions in the past as well). That's why I answered the question with "No" as this is not possible in (RoF) Dogfight mode. The rest of my answer is an attempt to offer a sort of alteranative we could work with for now.

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Isn´t this a little early? This is very much based on speculation. Facts will be most likely first

available when the premium version is out. Till then it will be just a comparision with ROF, COD, original IL2

and any other older flight sim.

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Isn´t this a little early? This is very much based on speculation. Facts will be most likely first

available when the premium version is out. Till then it will be just a comparision with ROF, COD, original IL2

and any other older flight sim.

 

It is a little early, yes, but all comments by the devs indicate that BoS Mission editor and MP will be based on RoF and we shouldn't expect a lot of new features at release. I'm trying to shed some light on how things currently work for RoF.

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How much can be done compared to this ?

 

What you have in online wars coops is :

- dynamic frontline changing by the daily events based on every mission flown,

- varied, dynamic availability of resources that change depending on frontline situation,

- online statistics + list of flown missions with briefings,

- forum for either side,

- dynamic, by the hour mission planning done by individual flight commanders (players) that generate missions,

- DID model (dead is dead),

- what players do in mission influences frontline (not only eg. train bombing, also will they return home - promotes actually nursing your plane to the nearest base),

- different info for either side ; VVS commander sees what Soviets have and know, LW commander sees what they have and know,

- frontline info for commanders : fighter resources at certain AF, ongoing server missions, intel on enemy resources at AF, intel on enemy transport routes and so on,

- transport hunting missions,reconnaissance missions, CAP, ground support, bomber hunting, base defence, carpet bombing and CAS,

- multiple different missions on the same campaign map done by players at the same time,

- every squad has their "room" on the online war site : squad stats and mission briefings,

- multiple different variants of missions - eg. 4v4, 8v8 (and so on), bombers only, bombers with fighters and so on.

- server time ends when either side accomplishes all of the main server objectives.

 

If we can do this on a DF server then we have an online war. It would be even better, because whereas in old OW formula the map was purely virtual, here we would actually have a dedicated server with fixed interface functioning constantly to which pilots would enter already knowing their objectives.

 

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Mac_Messer all that can be done by DF type servers, in il2 Mist of War, or AirDominationWar were based on DF type with some additional programs(mods) limiting some stuff (ADW was realy hard core with limits) and in them you have all exep human comanders planing ground war depending on resoults in mission before like its posible in SEOW. In DF based OW ground war is automaticly generated on resoults in mission before.

 

in RoF they have FEOW, and in CloD they have SoW Campaigns all working on DF type servers i believe

 

for Il2 SEOW i dont know if it can work without co-op mode, 4Shades is expert at that

 

probably there is more OW, this is the ones i know about

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What you have today using the ROF game engine, mission builder in dogfight mode and associated software is sufficient to run an inter squad campaign, we do just that every week.

 

It is not a full system like SEOW but it does follow the same philosophy. While you can make it as complicated as you want, it is in your interest to keep life simple. I try to target workload at one hour maximum  per managing participant per week with five man team.

 

Organisation typicaly is as follows.

 

Blue side administrator

Responsible for : rules, arbitration and mission editing (can not be Blue General, can fly under orders)

 

Red side administrator

Responsible for : rules, arbitration and mission editing (can not be Red General, can fly under orders)

 

Server administrator

Responsible for server launching stopping and management of stats software

 

Blue General

Responsible for mission planning and publishing the Blue Mission briefing in the Blue forum (can not be admin)

 

Red General

Responsible for mission planning and publishing the Red Mission briefing in the Red forum (can not be admin)

 

Stats manager

Responsible for updating central stats spreadsheet from published mission results. (can be any of the above or someone else).

Pilots

 

We have run up to 25 per side 80+ total may be possible

 

Now your questions

 

Dynamic frontline changing by the daily events based on every mission flown?

 

The two campaign admins decide and publish the rules. For an example look at www.69giap.com, rise of flight forum, Flanders eagles rules.

Rules can be points based and of objectives based. While in ROF I don’t  typicaly move the front line (as it didn’t happen often) you can move the front line.

In the mission builder you create and edit the influence areas which define which side owns which territory.

It takes about 5-10 minutes to edit the two areas.

 

Varied, dynamic availability of resources that change depending on frontline situation?

 

As above, admins decide rules that control resources.

Changing available planes is very quick and easy. I use a lot of static ground objects with a small number of moving AI objects. If you add lots of AI ground and air objects you increase admin workload. You may hit performance limits. From what I have seen I think ROF puts most AI processing on one of the cores. When this tops out….

 

Online statistics + list of flown missions with briefings?

Forum for either side?

 

Typicaly we run red and blue password locked private forums containing briefings/debriefings with a single unlocked forum to publish stats.

We built a stats parser to generate individual mission results, these are then compiled by hand into a summary stats spreadsheet.

 

Dynamic, by the hour mission planning done by individual flight commanders (players) that generate missions?

 

You can have a separate mission template for each planner, who cannot see the enemy templates. He then dumps the result to a file which is sent by mail to admin who loads the result into a single composite mission file.

I don’t bother doing this in practice, it does work but adds complexity.

 

DID model (dead is dead)?

What players do in mission influences frontline (not only eg. train bombing, also will they return home - promotes actually nursing your plane to the nearest base)?

 

As explained above, you set the rules

 

Different info for either side ; VVS commander sees what Soviets have and know, LW commander sees what they have and know,

Frontline info for commanders : fighter resources at certain AF, ongoing server missions, intel on enemy resources at AF, intel on enemy transport routes and so on,

 

Red and Blue Generals in private post briefings, pilots fly and post recon debriefings in private.

3 Admins have access to actual mission files so cannot plan and have to be trusted with confidentiality.

 

Transport hunting missions,reconnaissance missions, CAP, ground support, bomber hunting, base defence, carpet bombing and CAS?

Multiple different missions on the same campaign map done by players at the same time?

Multiple different variants of missions - eg. 4v4, 8v8 (and so on), bombers only, bombers with fighters and so on?

 

You set the rules, you build it, you fly it. We also do special missions like dropping spies, rescuing pilots, stealing planes, delivery spare parts….

 

 

Server time ends when either side accomplishes all of the main server objectives?

 

 

You can have that but it’s extra work and not useful. We fly this sort of campaign with the objective of flying with and against human pilots. If you have collected together 50 pilots for a 90 minute outing you don’t stop the mission after 15 minutes because….

 

If we can do this on a DF server then we have an online war. It would be even better, because whereas in old OW formula the map was purely virtual, here we would actually have a dedicated server with fixed interface functioning constantly to which pilots would enter already knowing their objectives.

 

What you are asking for is a self service 24x7 semi automated online war where people join and leave as it suits them.

 

Today, you don’t have that.

 

It existed for a while under IL2. I remember Neoqb started with what was called ADW. This generated 24x7 Co-Op missions in IL2 with centralised stats. That took a fair bit of software development but apart for at occasionel peak flying times you ended up flying mostly against AI.

 

What did work better under IL2 was SEOW.

 

This gave you a campaign generator which would generate one or two missions a week for committed squadrons.

 

Again it took a lot of software development. I dare not think how many man/hours 4shades spent developing it over 5+ years. However the result is big well planned regular missions in campaigns running over months where you will be flying a variety of mission styles against mostly human opponents in the air.

SEOW always generated IL2-COOP style missions. This was because until fairly recently you needed CO-OP style missions in order to have moving air and ground AI. However, the ROF dogfight format does allow moving air/ground and sea AI.

 

While I started building campaigns in ROF using co-op mode I now use dogfight mode. It makes it easier to organise 40 + players at mission launch. If someone arrives late they can just join. It also gets round the bone buffer limit on co-op missions which gives you a maximum of 50 pilotable positions in a co-op. That sounds a lot but a 2 seater takes up 2 positions and a 4 seater takes up 4 positions. So Dog-Fight format in ROF means more planes and pilots in the air.

 

Now we don’t have the SEOW database or user interface but we do have the stats parser, mission building expertise and campaign methodology  to run intersquad multi-player campaigns.

 

I think we will be ready to run the first test campaign within 2-4 weeks of pre-release.

 

If you want help to make that happen register on www.69giap.com

 

We can always do with a few more:

Experienced mission builders

Experienced SEOW campaign designers

PHP developpers

And some more VVS pilots always comes in handy…

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Probably the best online campaign experience is when it's manually organized, as described above by Stenka69GIAP. But this takes quite a bit of time and dedication so may not be suitable for every squad.

 

A 24x7 online war is outside the scope of what you can do with the mission editor. However, I think it is something that can be developed by the community and it is also something the Syndicate squadron is really keen on investigating.

 

The following is already available for RoF:

-a mission log that shows when units have been destroyed ( or landed ) - =FB=Vaal has successfully used this to create a stats parser and database/webpage

-a way to control the server ( start/ stop missions ) - The devs have provided an interafce to control/read the dedicated server (and provided Rcon utility as example) 

-a structured mission file format that can be generated. - Pat Wilson has already created a mission generator for a single player campaign

 

What is still needed is "campaign management" software (such as ADW) and it has to integrate the above functionaliy.

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What you are asking for is a self service 24x7 semi automated online war where people join and leave as it suits them.

 

Today, you don’t have that.

 

It existed for a while under IL2. I remember Neoqb started with what was called ADW. This generated 24x7 Co-Op missions in IL2 with centralised stats. That took a fair bit of software development but apart for at occasionel peak flying times you ended up flying mostly against AI.

 

What did work better under IL2 was SEOW.

 

This gave you a campaign generator which would generate one or two missions a week for committed squadrons.

 

Again it took a lot of software development. I dare not think how many man/hours 4shades spent developing it over 5+ years. However the result is big well planned regular missions in campaigns running over months where you will be flying a variety of mission styles against mostly human opponents in the air.

SEOW always generated IL2-COOP style missions. This was because until fairly recently you needed CO-OP style missions in order to have moving air and ground AI. However, the ROF dogfight format does allow moving air/ground and sea AI.

What about Bellum War, VEF, VEF2 and few others? And no, not mostly against AI, this is simply untrue. At least 150 players took part in those wars regulary and hundreds more threw few sorties from time to time.

This was in 2005, mostly automated and you`re telling me we can`t have that in BoS? Nice.

So you`re saying that a DF server goer probably will find in BoS exactly what he was used to. OW pilots not necessarily. Probably going to take a year or two from release day to make up for it.

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So what can we expect from BoS Multiplayer ?

 

 

BoS Multiplayer, The problem is..
If you have Only a single map for one year or + , we all know what that means.
The death of online community, the multiplayer pilots all get bored,  90% multiplayer activity is ended, the servers become empty.
And they say the online community is small, But it's just the " Law cause and effect " in RoF.
Everything is predictable,
" then we focus on the offline players "  "then Unlock mods in solo career"

 

Because the servers are going to drain quickly , and they know that.
How much time is required to develop a new map ?  .. is very complex and take a lot of time :(  ,  I can understand,  There's no magic here  :( The multiplayer is doomed,  :(
 
At least 2 maps must be required at the launch the BoS, that would have extended the life of the multiplayer activity.
Edited by Mustang
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Mustang, multiplayer is what community makes it to be.

In ArmA most players are "consumers" waiting for someone else to feed them (to be found in servers with a mission called Domination) but as I read above I think I see some more "creator" inspired people so I think it will be just ok.

I do not expect us to have all things working in whatever BoS will give us on release but as the product evolves I guess creative people as above will find new solutions to what would be preferred in missions and setups and as such missions and "campaigns" will grow.

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Server operators have always dictated multiplayer. A server operator that makes a interesting missions/maps/scenarios that run and then cycle through with true objectives that are difficult but achievable with team work make multiplayer, and the willingness of the players to participate. A cause, purpose, point, objective to each mission and then overall a stats posting for those who care about that which are posted to a central repository for that server to find an individual's stats make multiplayer - and those stats include a top 10 or 20 for each category and are posted for each different scenario.

 

Multiple maps don't matter, but a purpose to play the mission/map/scenario, complete the objectives, a real reason to play aside from dogfighting makes a successful multiplayer.

 

Unfortunately that requires participation from the participants, and most would rather just dogfight. But most importantly it requires an organizer or group of organizers to effectively pull it off.

 

The events that pull the most players at any one time in early WarBirds (pre-iENT), Aces High and Air Warrior were organized events that had hundreds of participants organized into a giant scenario that replicated part of a major air battle. Those were awesome, but they required organization and management - something no software will be able to do until it gains sentience - those events were put together with two things. One was the game platform, such as any air combat sim out there, and the second was human event organizers and coordinators. No software automated anything, no hooks to output stats, no generators, just a blank map/slate with organizers organizing the particpants and getting the ball rolling.

Edited by FuriousMeow
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Thanks, Vander. The ME does feel daunting at first but as in all things there are simplifications available from the community over time. These "templates" quicken up the process and Im sure the community will share them.

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This shows how good IL2 was.  The multiplayer settings (DF and Co-op) allowed for all different scenarios and it was very, very easy to use.

 

Personally I'd like the same functionality in every game.  A lot of the co-op functionality came from FMB.  We'll just have to wait to see what we're given.

 

Hood

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Server operators have always dictated multiplayer. A server operator that makes a interesting missions/maps/scenarios that run and then cycle through with true objectives that are difficult but achievable with team work make multiplayer, and the willingness of the players to participate. A cause, purpose, point, objective to each mission and then overall a stats posting for those who care about that which are posted to a central repository for that server to find an individual's stats make multiplayer - and those stats include a top 10 or 20 for each category and are posted for each different scenario.

 

Multiple maps don't matter, but a purpose to play the mission/map/scenario, complete the objectives, a real reason to play aside from dogfighting makes a successful multiplayer.

 

Unfortunately that requires participation from the participants, and most would rather just dogfight. But most importantly it requires an organizer or group of organizers to effectively pull it off.

 

The events that pull the most players at any one time in early WarBirds (pre-iENT), Aces High and Air Warrior were organized events that had hundreds of participants organized into a giant scenario that replicated part of a major air battle. Those were awesome, but they required organization and management - something no software will be able to do until it gains sentience - those events were put together with two things. One was the game platform, such as any air combat sim out there, and the second was human event organizers and coordinators. No software automated anything, no hooks to output stats, no generators, just a blank map/slate with organizers organizing the particpants and getting the ball rolling.

 

Very good enjoyed reading that. As an admin and long serving member of the battle-fields IL2 servers which are still among the most populated on the net, I sincerely hope that mission builders are able to use all the available weapons options. An online scenario where those who have access to weapons that the less skilled haven`t will not encourage people to stick around. If you get a new player getting their butt kicked day in day out because they don`t have access to more competitive equipment as they havn`t earnt them offline isn`t going to encourage them.

 

ie you`ll get online experts who only ever fly 2 types who have racked up the mods with ease,  against newbie in a Lagg-3 who already is at a serious disadvantage due to lack of experience and a greater one because he has no improvements. That`s life some will say, but gaming is supposed to be enjoyable??

 

I hope that the "bonus/earnt" mods are for offline campaigns, and that all the options (obviously not the paid for ones) will be available online to everyone. If this has been cleared up already I apologise and can someone post me the link.

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Smurfy, it's not cleared up but you're going over old ground.

 

I'd expect that server-side you can limit/restrict field mods that have been earned.

 

Lack of experience is just that - it's not "unfair", and if someone has a basic LaGG-3 they can just fly offline and get some field mods.  If they're inexperienced but have field mods they're still going to struggle until they gain the necessary experience.  There is a skill element and some have it, some don't.  Practice helps so that's what they'll need.  They can do that in the campaign then transfer their learning online.  Or accept the frustrations of just starting out.

 

Again, field mods won't be uber power-ups, just optional equipment.

 

Not aimed at you Smurfy but there's a lot of borrowing trouble about this.

 

Hood

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No problem , definitely not looking to cause trouble I have full respect for the devs after their work with RoF. Whatever we`re presented with I expect to be more than happy with.

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BoS Multiplayer, The problem is..
If you have Only a single map for one year or + , we all know what that means.
The death of online community, the multiplayer pilots all get bored,  90% multiplayer activity is ended, the servers become empty.
And they say the online community is small, But it's just the " Law cause and effect " in RoF.
Everything is predictable, Because the servers are going to drain quickly , and they know that.
How much time is required to develop a new map ?  .. is very complex and take a lot of time :(  ,  I can understand,  There's no magic here  :( The multiplayer is doomed,  :(
 
At least 2 maps must be required at the launch the BoS, that would have extended the life of the multiplayer activity.

 

 

I think that one map will be highly engaging, even after years of use, if the mission builders create lots of diverse missions and the mission buiilders add in new missions, every now and again, to spice things up. The Stalingrad map is going to be big and a highly detailed map, so there are a lot of unique and interesting locations that mission builders can use to create lots of missions. In ROF, I never get bored of the France map, though I do enjoy the addition of the Channel map, too. 

 

:salute: MJ

Edited by MishaJames

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I wonder if there will be a way for to discourage shooting persons in parachutes? I personally think there should be a rule against intentionally killing bailed out pilots and penalties if one engages in such acts. I would suggest an automatic wiping of the kill streak of a pilot if he kills a person in a parachute.

Edited by MishaJames

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We have been over this before ( I looked up one of my own posts on another forum)

 

This is en excerpt from Hugh Dodwing's account of the Battle of Britain (from: http://www.spitfiresite.com/hi...-hugh-dowding-05.htm (http://www.spitfiresite.com/history/articles/2008/01/battle-of-britain-by-hugh-dowding-05.htm) )

 

"This is perhaps a convenient opportunity to say a word about the ethics of shooting at aircraft crews who have baled out in parachutes.

 

Germans descending over England are prospective prisoners of war, and, as such, should be immune. On the other hand, British pilots descending over England are still potential combatants.

 

Much indignation was caused by the fact that German pilots sometimes fired on our descending airmen (although, in my opinion, they were perfectly entitled to do so), but I am glad to say that in many cases they refrained and sometimes greeted a helpless adversary with a cheerful wave of the hand."

 

 

But....we are very much off-topic by now!

Edited by SYN_Vander

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We have been over this before ( I looked up one of my own posts on another forum)

 

This is en excerpt from Hugh Dodwing's account of the Battle of Britain (from: http://www.spitfiresite.com/hi...-hugh-dowding-05.htm (http://www.spitfiresite.com/history/articles/2008/01/battle-of-britain-by-hugh-dowding-05.htm) )

 

"This is perhaps a convenient opportunity to say a word about the ethics of shooting at aircraft crews who have baled out in parachutes.

 

Germans descending over England are prospective prisoners of war, and, as such, should be immune. On the other hand, British pilots descending over England are still potential combatants.

 

Much indignation was caused by the fact that German pilots sometimes fired on our descending airmen (although, in my opinion, they were perfectly entitled to do so), but I am glad to say that in many cases they refrained and sometimes greeted a helpless adversary with a cheerful wave of the hand."

 

 

But....we are very much off-topic by now!

 

The topic is: So what can we expect from BoS Multiplayer?

 

Can we not expect persons to engage in shooting at persons in parachutes in multiplayer? I should think so. The display of poor sportsmanship is  on topic. Poor sportsmanship, however negative a mater, is among countless things, both positive and negative, we can expect from BOS multiplayer. You picked the topic, Vander. ;)

Edited by MishaJames

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...multiplayer is what community makes it to be...

 

+1 This is very much the case. Multiplayer isn't just a dev side or mission builder side issue. If the community wants multiplayer to be fantastic, it will be. It is just like a neighborhood. You can put up pretty buildings, parks, and first rate schools, but if the community starts throwing garbage out the window, littering the streets, the best designed neighborhood will be a slum, soon enough. Multiplayer is no different. If the community keeps the proverbial garbage out of multiplayer, multiplayer will be utterly wonderful.

 

:salute: MJ

Edited by MishaJames

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This was in 2005, mostly automated and you`re telling me we can`t have that in BoS? Nice.

So you`re saying that a DF server goer probably will find in BoS exactly what he was used to. OW pilots not necessarily. Probably going to take a year or two from release day to make up for it.

It took several years for the community in IL2 to develop automated online wars. The editor didn't do it.

 

If I have understood the 777 press releases correctly BOS will be based upon the ROF engine and mission builder but they will be at least initialy releasing the product only supporting the Dogfight mode.

 

Now this is not so surprising if the editor has limited resources and tight deadlines they have to focus on something. When ROF was initialy released it only had a CO-OP mode we had to wait a year or so for the dogfight mode. I have used both modes in ROF and if I have to choose between them I build missions in DF mode. It is more flexible and has less limitations. 

 

The structure is there to build automated online wargaming. Log files are readable text files that you can use a third party parser to update your third party stats database, you can then apply your rulesets and generate the mission files, which are readable text files with a relatively simple syntex. 

 

If we get pre-release September 2013 I'm quite sure you are not going to get what the community took more than 10 years to develop around the original IL2. However if it was my software development project N° 1 priority would be a stable core platform, N°2 some quality single player content to bring in the revenue to pay the rent N° 3 some cool new planes to sell

 

Fortunately the relatively small multi-user community is relatively sophisticated and sometimes well organised. So rather than wait a year or two some of us will take what's given and write what's needed. What we need is early availability and friendy advice from the development team when we get stuck with a technical question (and that we have always received).

 

If the platform is stable we will have some quality multi-player gameplay within weeks of pre-release. 

 

What I need is another two programmers able to handle or learn PHP and MYSQL.

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This interesting topic. After having a quick look on this forum and documentation available for ROF mission builder & dedicated server commander tools I have two questions to the experts:

 

1. Is it possible to "inject" new sub-missions into server while there is already a mission running? ( I believe this was possible on CLOD) e.g. Administrator could generate a bomber formation & route to target mission and then load it into running server which then would implement it without restarting the server

 

2. alternatively can you launch the triggers you have designed for your mission from the server admin tool?

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If it's possible for a single person to run an online war for just over a year, doing everything 100% manually, six days a week with approx 200 participants in total (around 20 average on any given session), I'm sure it's possible for a small group of people using at least partially automated systems to pull it off with even the worst mission editor.

 

One of the core considerations is an objective analysis of the mindset of the majority of the players and trying to match that to the type of war to be implemented and the systems used to calculate all the results. It's akin to herding cats. For just one example: trying to reconcile the needs and desires of the persona player with the arcade player. Right there you have a gulf of difference in the expectations to be met and too many wars have failed in their attempts to be all things to all players.

 

Another core consideration is establishing an overall concept and matching that to the functional ability of the game and the hardware to be used. Needless to say, the overall concept...see "herding cats" above. With a big enough player-base that becomes easier, but even in the peak days of IL2 it was difficult. It certainly never happened for RoF, though I guess that might have been because WW1 was an MP niche too far. That and the game's inability to handle a sufficient number of objects. But we were pushing the boundaries with IL2 in that regard too.

 

In my experience, too heavily a structured format leads to failure. But the same holds true for anything too loosely structured too. Rather pointing out the obvious there I guess. Most people are working and don't have sufficient time to make a career of combat flying. They need to sit down and just get straight to it. But they don't want to then fly into a purposeless void either. Any designer has a serious challenge in that regard.

 

I've given some casual consideration to running another DiD war but it would very much be the Kubelwagon vs the Mercedes Limo in comparison to previous fully automated affairs. None the less, it was a very popular affair for the hardest of the hardcore persona players. The player-base has shrunk since then though, so probably meh.

Edited by JG3-Siggi

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This interesting topic. After having a quick look on this forum and documentation available for ROF mission builder & dedicated server commander tools I have two questions to the experts:

 

1. Is it possible to "inject" new sub-missions into server while there is already a mission running? ( I believe this was possible on CLOD) e.g. Administrator could generate a bomber formation & route to target mission and then load it into running server which then would implement it without restarting the server

 

2. alternatively can you launch the triggers you have designed for your mission from the server admin tool?

 

Very briefly:

 

1) No, you can't insert new logic into a running mission. I have to say, it's also a bit of a weird requirement! :) However, it IS possible to trigger events in the mission from the outside through commandline. So if you have a formation of bombers hidden in the mission, an admin could activate them from outside the mission by accessing the server.

 

2) Yes, see above! 

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Thanks for the prompt answer - I am just thinking the possibilities how to make missions more dynamic on the fly.

 

I think the triggers will do the trick then. One more additional question. Will those inactive AI objects somehow affect on server performance i.e. is there a limit how many inactive objects a mission can hold? I assume also ground objects like cars, tanks & trains can be incative and then activated?

Edited by LeLv8_Otto

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1. Is it possible to "inject" new sub-missions into server while there is already a mission running? ( I believe this was possible on CLOD) e.g. Administrator could generate a bomber formation & route to target mission and then load it into running server which then would implement it without restarting the server.

 

In Cl+D what can be done is load a new (pre-made) sub mission into a main mission (not manually generate new objective for actual mission - this can be done by scripted triggers, and due this need be include in main mission files (and result in hundred of code lines...).

E.g. in SNAFU Kanalkampf, server load a mission (automated or manually), some players join and start this mission, ~30 minutes after more players join, the first group are far... not enough time for reach then...

 

The second group can opt to search for "targets of opportunity" until the main mission end or manually ('radio' commands) load a new (pre-made) sub mission, that can be "large" (4+ players) or "small" (~2 players) and do this mission. Both missions, and "targets of opportunity", count towards the final result.

 

This is nice, a "dynamic" COOP... but complicated for casual COOP'ers set and run... :huh:

 

What '1946 COOP'ers want is a fixed, "plastered" (start here, shoot something there, come back here...) COOP than can be edited and started in 10 minutes, like in... '1946. :biggrin:

 

This "novel" promises. :lol:

 

Sokol1

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