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I understand the sim is pre-alpha, and I haven't noticed much (involuntary) head movement in the youtube videos.  What are the plans for this in BoS?  For the most part I like the head movement effect in the DCS P-51, but I understand that in a coordinated turn there should not be any head roll movement (do the vector physics to convince yourself).  Some of us feel that RoF is a bit weak in this department, where the pilot's head is more or less rigid, and always lined up with the gunsight regardless of g-forces or violent maneuvers.  Are there plans for more dynamic head movement in BoS compared to RoF?

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That is what I meant when I was asking if some of the TIR movement could/would be mapped to the pilot specifically lean forward/back,lean left/right, head turns left/right, up/down. I have no clue how doable this is but it appears that if the pilot is able to move in those directions it might not b too hard to tie it to the 6 degrees of TIR.

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Some of the head tracking movement is already there in ROF, the X and Y.

 

Im sure that at least will be in BOS.

 

Adding more would be great but i dont know how feasible it would be, remember we are strapped in.

 

As for the head movement in cockpit, i agree the way it was done in CLOD is one of the things it did well, and would like to see it done that way in BOS, knowing the team and what we have seen so far, im sure it will be done at least as good if not better.

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Being strapped in doesn't keep you from being pushed down and thrown around a little In the cockpit. I know its done in rof. I'm wondering if they could just "turn it up" a little? It really seperated the game from 1946. Though its not as lacking as In the original title,clod really just felt different/more realistic. Well I hope they can pump it up a little.

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Nice post Gavagai. I heard from a US military pilot that turning your head whilst performing maneuvers whilst flying at high speed is very difficult because of the forces involved. I hope that this is taken into account for BOS!

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I'd rather have less head movement than more to be honest (taking CloD as reference; too little playtime in RoF).

 

Looking at the screen, when somebody else flies or when watching a video, the little bit of head movement due to g-forces or when rolling the aircraft does look good. But when I'm on the controls myself, that head movement feels awkward.

 

This is just my subjective perception of things, but when flying for real I do not conciously notice the head movement, even when maneuvering (Human vision/brain compensation? Maybe. No idea!). When I play CloD however, I do notice it, without focusing on it.

 

And that's what makes it feel out of place for me in games. The modeled element in the game (head movement), while being of course there in reality, is just perceived differently in real flight.

 

Anyways, just how I see it. Take it for what it's worth.

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I'd rather have less head movement than more to be honest (taking CloD as reference; too little playtime in RoF).

 

Looking at the screen, when somebody else flies or when watching a video, the little bit of head movement due to g-forces or when rolling the aircraft does look good. But when I'm on the controls myself, that head movement feels awkward.

 

This is just my subjective perception of things, but when flying for real I do not conciously notice the head movement, even when maneuvering (Human vision/brain compensation? Maybe. No idea!). When I play CloD however, I do notice it, without focusing on it.

 

And that's what makes it feel out of place for me in games. The modeled element in the game (head movement), while being of course there in reality, is just perceived differently in real flight.

 

Anyways, just how I see it. Take it for what it's worth.

 

Good points. Maybe a "meet in the middle" solution as I really like clods version but can see that it can be seen as overdone.

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I'd rather have less head movement than more to be honest (taking CloD as reference; too little playtime in RoF).

 

Looking at the screen, when somebody else flies or when watching a video, the little bit of head movement due to g-forces or when rolling the aircraft does look good. But when I'm on the controls myself, that head movement feels awkward.

 

This is just my subjective perception of things, but when flying for real I do not conciously notice the head movement, even when maneuvering (Human vision/brain compensation? Maybe. No idea!). When I play CloD however, I do notice it, without focusing on it.

 

And that's what makes it feel out of place for me in games. The modeled element in the game (head movement), while being of course there in reality, is just perceived differently in real flight.

 

Anyways, just how I see it. Take it for what it's worth.

 

i would agree when i am flying i don't notice it eighter

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I'd rather have less head movement than more to be honest (taking CloD as reference; too little playtime in RoF).

 

Looking at the screen, when somebody else flies or when watching a video, the little bit of head movement due to g-forces or when rolling the aircraft does look good. But when I'm on the controls myself, that head movement feels awkward.

 

To each his own, but honestly, the head movements are supposed to feel awkward and at least throw off your your aim (when appropriate - it should work as it does IRL) In adition to the realism it will also encourage players to practice well executed coordinated turns. I think ClOD does it ok, and I'm certainly expecting some stronger forces than we currently experience at the slow speeds in RoF.

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I wonder how many pilots loosened up their straps a bit while enroute but tightened them up as they got closer to the target.

 

I can only speak for myself when i fly but the only time my straps are loose is on start-up when i need access to the choke control  which is just under the front of my seat.

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I wonder how many pilots loosened up their straps a bit while enroute but tightened them up as they got closer to the target.

If we're talking about fighter planes or other planes with cramped cockpits, I'm not really sure it would make that much of a difference TBH. I once had the good fortune of being allowed into the cockpit of an airworthy Spitfire at Duxford. I could hardly fit in there at all, besides being 15 years old and not even fully grown. I found the position you're forced into with your legs near horizontal and your back straight extremely uncomfortable. I never fastened the straps, but no matter how unpleasant they might have been, I don't think they could've made the comfort much worse. As for reaching the instruments, I don't think you'd have problems reaching anything other than the stuff blocked by your legs and shoulders.

 

Besides, if I'm not mistaken, most missions on The Eastern Front had a relatively short duration, rarely over 2 hours, so I don't think you'd have much time to relax.

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Hello all! I for one would like to see forced movement to the pilot POV(especially on rough belly landings), motion streak to the peripheral when low and simulated vibration would be cool too. ROF shakes the cockpit model, but the pilot's POV center remains static in relation. I don't have much war bird flying time, but I did fly on Liberty Belle before she burned up and one of the things I noticed(hard not too) was how bad the whole plane shook. I would really like to see BOS break the genre mold so i think it would be nice to have options for things like this that focus on the sensation of flight and physics.  

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Hello all! I for one would like to see forced movement to the pilot POV(especially on rough belly landings), motion streak to the peripheral when low and simulated vibration would be cool too. ROF shakes the cockpit model, but the pilot's POV center remains static in relation. I don't have much war bird flying time, but I did fly on Liberty Belle before she burned up and one of the things I noticed(hard not too) was how bad the whole plane shook. I would really like to see BOS break the genre mold so i think it would be nice to have options for things like this that focus on the sensation of flight and physics.  

This!  Its the sensation of flying, the vibration the g forces when snapping the plane into a roll  (momentary opposite head movement), it really adds immersion when the plane is moving around you.  yes you are strapped in but there is an amount of movement that gives you the sensation that the aircraft is in deed in the air riding its buffets and responding to the control inputs, in turn putting a strain on your body.

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personally i hate head movement for i tell stall visually by the slight roll of the plane that currently can be confused with head roll

 

in real life im able to tell if my heads rolling, not in the game which ads it unrealistic difficulty

Edited by raaaid
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Yeah, this is always subjective. I agree with the comments above regarding head movement while flying RL aircraft. Although there will be a bit of movement while maneuvering or even while flying straight and level in turbulent air, it's really not something you notice that much.

 

This effect, while 'cool' looking, is something that needs to strike a balance between realism and Hollywood BS.

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No, it is not subjective that there should not be lateral forces on the pilot's head in a coordinated turn.  That is an objective fact of physics.

 

Please distinguish between real physics and extra movement that can be added in order to give the feeling of being-there.

Edited by gavagai
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No, it is not subjective that there should not be lateral forces on the pilot's head in a coordinated turn.  That is an objective fact of physics.

 

Please distinguish between real physics and extra movement that can be added in order to give the feeling of being-there.

 

makes sense, and I agree - at same time, we are using a 'trackir' on a ie. '21 inch monitor' and needing to 'zoom in and out'  - so some concessions need to be made.

 

it's not easy tracking aircraft in these sims already, let's not make it any harder  -   I've probably decreased my eyes lifespan playing flight sims and picking out pixels as it is  :)

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personally i hate head movement for i tell stall visually by the slight roll of the plane that currently can be confused with head roll

 

in real life im able to tell if my heads rolling, not in the game which ads it unrealistic difficulty

raaaaaid whats up buddy

i really missed your threads

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I think I can understand, why people feel like it increases immersion when the camera moves due to physical forces. After all the pilot is not a rigid statue, strapped in the cockpit. But there's more to it.

 

The reason, why I'd be happy if they'd ease off on those effects is, that I don't recall ever getting annoyed by being thrown off by my head movement in real life, while trying to line up a shot. I also don't recall having to compensate with additional maneuvering solely due to the fact that my head moves because of physical forces.

 

In the game (CloD; possibly not in RoF, but I don't know) I do get annoyed at times and I have to compensate and start correcting because of a gaming effect. That's what actually decreases immersion for me personally, because it doesn't reflect something I experience/perceive when flying in reality.

 

I don't pretend to speak for all the pilots on the planet, of course. But it seems like crossfade and jocko417 had similar experiences.

 

But all in all, it's about "meeting in the middle" and "balance", like Hooves and jocko417 already said. I'm sure most would be happy with a good compromise.

 

 

(Btw @ gavagai: Sorry, if I misunderstood what you were trying to say in your OP. I'm not deliberately trying to throw the thread off topic or something!)

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No, it is not subjective that there should not be lateral forces on the pilot's head in a coordinated turn.  That is an objective fact of physics.

 

Please distinguish between real physics and extra movement that can be added in order to give the feeling of being-there.

 

Perhaps you should read only the last sentence of my previous post, I am not saying that physics is subjective, rather that the effect in question is. Some people will think it's cool, others will think it's an unrealistic gimmick.

Edited by jocko417
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This video does a good job of showing vibration and movement to the pilot POV:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2r-OYf93JI

All you did was entice me to go play RoF with my Rift.    LOL   Great video.  I don't see the effects really, except for take off roll.  Again I just want an in between of CLiffs and RoF.   I dont like the "on rails" feealing that Im connected to my gunsight via an invisible brace

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Gavagai, fully with you regarding coordinated maneuvers. Quite strangely, this is not done correctly in an otherwise very respectable sim, DCS. But they give you the choice to switch it off, at least. One other thing to consider: to the human eye in a cockpit, vibrations or movements from G-forces appear completely different than for a camera. Being in the situation, you compensate for many if not most of the movements, retaining a continuous and non shaky image of the world. Think running, and the recording of that run with a headcam. So, to do this well is not so easy.

 

Less is more...

 

MAC

Edited by MACADEMIC
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[...] One other thing to consider: to the human eye in a cockpit, vibrations or movements from G-forces appear completely different than for a camera. Being in the situation, you compensate for many if not most of the movements, retaining a continuous and non shaky image of the world. Think running, and the recording of that run with a headcam. So, to do this well is not so easy.

 

Less is more...

 

MAC

 

I think you're spot on, mate!

 

 

Here's a video showing what a shaky pilot POV effect could look like. Just watch for the cockpit views. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D2Lzqf4ve8

 

MAC, when running in Battlefield the POV will shake from side to side to better suggest the illusion of our character sprinting.  

 

I think that camera shaking effect only works for a video or a movie. It makes the in-cockpit scenes more intense and believable for the viewer, because that is what it looks like if we were to strap a camera to the pilots head and film it (you posted a link to a video like that yourself before), but MACAMIC's "running with a headcam" example was exactly right.

 

Compare the camera shaking in the video below, of a guy jogging, with what you perceive in reality, when running yourself. There's quite a difference, if you ask me.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odgf06c-TSk

 

The same goes for in-cockpit videos vs. reality.

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Whether running in a virtual world or flying, using movement upon the POV is an effect that adds more to the experience IMO. Sure, the running in Battlefield doesn't look like that jogging video, but the POV does shake to help express the act of sprinting in game. I'm just saying it'd be nice if sims experimented with more visual tricks like this to show motion. But I agree with your point about sublety.  

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Whether running in a virtual world or flying, using movement upon the POV is an effect that adds more to the experience IMO. Sure, the running in Battlefield doesn't look like that jogging video, but the POV does shake to help express the act of sprinting in game. I'm just saying it'd be nice if sims experimented with more visual tricks like this to show motion. But I agree with your point about sublety.  

 

Yeah, I see your point as well.

Subtle movements, that generate a believable and immersive cockpit environment without contradicting real life perceptions... That would be awesome!

 

Much easier said than done of course, but the devs might pull it off.

 

P.S.: MACADEMIC, I apologize for butchering your name in my last post! CURSE YOU, 15 minute Edit-Post Timeout!!! ;):)

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:D

 

Matze, don't worry, I know it tends to trouble people sometimes. Anyway, MAC would do as well ;)

 

Back on topic: I agree with you regarding subtle movements, as long as they are based on the load total of all vector forces. And, it's really important to differentiate movements of close objects, i.e. all that you have in your cockpit; those could move, shake a bit, etc...but, the outside world must not shake or move because of turbulence or vibrations! The distances are just to big for any perceivable motion, and just making the whole picture shake without making such differentiation is a very bad counterimmersive idea!

 

MAC

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As someone who has done aerobatics in real life, I can agree with other posters. I've pulled up to 4.5G (before the whining starts, I know this is less than in a dogfight) and never noticed it to be particularly difficult to hold my head up. You do have to actually use your neck muscles to keep your head in place, but it isn't beyond the realm of normal humans to do so.

 

People LOVE to talk about realism. THEY FREAKING LOVE IT. (Sorry I had to get that out.) The problem is that a simulator will never and can never be 100% realistic. Even the best Airline and Military simulators with full motion only capture 80-90% of what flying the real aircraft is like. There is no way that a desktop PC sim will ever approach this level of realism. It just can't be done with the money and peripherals available.

 

The real thing to think about is IMMERSION. Now let me ask you, your body right now sitting in your computer chair is under 1G. If in the sim you suddenly see your view dip and must raise your head (assuming TrackIR) to keep your view in place, you are actively breaking immersion by doing something your body/eyes/brain cannot reconcile. Your body feels 1G, but your eyes are telling you that you should be feeling multiple Gs, then you do something to rectify the later and your brain immediately says, "Wait, this doesn't make sense." This immersion break is far more damaging to the experience than any small loss of realism from the feature being suggested here.

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I know a military pilot who has pulled 7+ sustained g turns and more.  He describes neck pain and the possibility of permanent injury as a fact of his job.

 

All I'm asking for is accurate physics.  No charades or gimmicks.  It seems like many of you have not tried Rise of Flight, which is a shame because it makes it hard to hold a conversation without having the same information.  If you try that sim you'll notice that, except for a small shift in the vertical axis, the view is rock steady regardless of the maneuvers you do.   The degree of dynamic movement is much less than in 1946, for example.

 

Here is a good video showing involuntary pilot head movement in a F-16:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1X8SE-FDjk

 

Notice how his whole body shifts up under negative gs, i.e. flying inverted.

Edited by gavagai
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Well Crow, we have a video right there. It SHOWS the pilot's body moving, his eyes and brain certainly couldn't ever adjust for that! And what do you know anyway?

 

As someone who has done aerobatics in real life, I can agree with other posters. I've pulled up to 4.5G (before the whining starts, I know this is less than in a dogfight) and never noticed it to be particularly difficult to hold my head up. You do have to actually use your neck muscles to keep your head in place, but it isn't beyond the realm of normal humans to do so.

 

Oh...

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Well Crow, we have a video right there. It SHOWS the pilot's body moving, his eyes and brain certainly couldn't ever adjust for that! And what do you know anyway?

 

 

Oh...

Yeah, I think the point people are missing is that realism != immersion. Sure it's realistic to have the  head movement. I wasn't stating that in the slightest. I've been there. I've felt it in real life (I'm a professional pilot, fwiw).

 

My point is that it is terribly immersion breaking to have such a feature in the game. I think people don't realize that when they talk about various realism subjects. Lots of people love(d) IL-2. I know for a fact that many of them were incredibly immersed in the experience (even to the point that some of them roleplay as WWII pilots in virtual versions of real WWII squadrons). How was it ever possible to get immersed in something that was so unrealistic? IL-2 lacked all kinds of realism features that people whine about today. How did it ever sell so well and play so beautifully (it still does, btw)? Because they enthralling part of the game is not about realism alone. It's about the ILLUSION of realism and the immersion that it provides.

Edited by Crow
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You're absolutely right regarding the illusions that lead to immersion.

 

There's always head movement in real life from running to roller coasters to day to day driving. Using videos as evidence is the issue, they don't convey what a human sees. If they did, our ancesters would have been cowering in caves several thousand years ago hiding from the beasts we did hunt for food because the world was a quivering shaky mess everytime we moved. Actually, everything with eyes would never move. The brain compensates, and our eye balls sit in a very squishy material. Cameras, however, are mounted and show a different perspective.

Edited by FuriousMeow
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I think War Thunder is worth bringing up here. It has head involuntary head movement when maneuvering. Realistic or not (not even going to try to go into that as the only aerobatics I have done is a flat turn) it does look (to my eyes) realistic when you watch someone else play. As if they're actually sitting in the cockpit rather than being a static camera (think IL2).

 

However, when playing it's a complete pain in the ass. Reflective sight disappears in some hard turn despite your (the real life player) head not moving a inch. Then you end up having to move to some awkward position to sit in the normal in cockpit position.

Makes TrackIR feel less like you're in the cockpit and more like it's an awkward analogue stick you use to keep the pilot in place.

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