D.H.2 "The Spinning Incinerator."

[Todt_Von_Oben]

I haven't flown the Airco D.H.2 much yet but her nickname intrigues me so I want to give it a try. 

 

Apparently, she was hard to handle until the pilot figured her quirks out.  Some say the rotary pusher engine gave the plane a nasty tendency to spin.  I'm wondering how accurately that has been represented in the Flight Model.

 

Anyone flying "The Spinning Incinerator" care to comment?  What has your experience with this plane been, and what do you think of how accurately it's represented by the FM?

 

S!

 

 

[AndyJWest]

I'm always a bit sceptical about fancy nicknames supposedly given to aircraft - particularly the more dramatic ones. What contemporary evidence is there for this? Google throws up a whole slew of results, but I suspect most of them are regurgitating Wikipedia.

 

As for the D.H.2s actual spin characteristics, it's worth bearing in mind that at the time the D.H.2 came into service, there was still relatively little understanding of what a spin was, or what the appropriate recovery technique was. It could well have been no worse than other front-line scouts of its era, and there isn't anything obvious about the layout that suggests it should be particularly problematic in comparison.

 

Without actual data to go on, there really isn't a lot to be gained by comparing the FC model's spin characteristics with assumptions built around a nickname.

[No.23_Starling]

8 hours ago, Todt_Von_Oben said:

I haven't flown the Airco D.H.2 much yet but her nickname intrigues me so I want to give it a try. 

 

Apparently, she was hard to handle until the pilot figured her quirks out.  Some say the rotary pusher engine gave the plane a nasty tendency to spin.  I'm wondering how accurately that has been represented in the Flight Model.

 

Anyone flying "The Spinning Incinerator" care to comment?  What has your experience with this plane been, and what do you think of how accurately it's represented by the FM?

 

S!

 

 

From what I’ve read its handling was tricky when first introduced, largely due to the poor understanding of spins and lack of training. Lanoe Hawker supposedly took one up over his aerodrome and demonstrated several spins and recoveries to ease fears of his pilots.

 

A problem it actually did have though was the poor quality engines which were notorious for coming apart mid flight - there are records of cylinders launching metals into the tail booms, with some fatal results. They also suffered from loss of HP and plug fouling; several scholars think Hawker’s engine was losing power in his final fatal dogfight. The exploding and conking engines are not modelled in the game!

 

The main issue though was performance. It was meant to be able to out turn the early Albatrosses ( @Holtzauge’s data confirms eyewitness reports on better turn) but it was hopelessly slower and worse in a climb. The FC model cannot out turn its main opponents making it near useless vs all but the Eindecker in game, though part of the issue is the Albis turning too well.

[Todt_Von_Oben]

"The FC model cannot out turn its main opponents making it near useless vs all but the Eindecker in game, though part of the issue is the Albis turning too well."

 

Thank you both for your info.  I think this pretty much summarizes what I was looking for.  I'll give it a try today.  👍 

[Todt_Von_Oben]

I flew five 16-plane skirmishes last night; two in the Pusher and three in Eindekker. 

 

The "Spinning Incinerator" nickname is hard to understand.  I found the Airco D.H.2 easy to fly and land, and relatively maneuverable.  She's just a tad slow.

 

In contrast, the Eindekker is a tractor-type monoplane with a belt-fed Spandau 08 firing through the propeller.  It's a bit bigger and turns a little slower; but she's also a bit faster and you can actually push her around the aerobatic envelope with a fair degree of success.

 

We were flying 8-on-8 and the furballs got pretty hectic; to the point that being in a slower but more-maneuverable plane wasn't always a bad thing. 

 

Then again, the Eindekker can make good use of it's speed. 

 

But as always, the relative positioning and altitude of the opposing groups is going to be a major factor.  If you can get the jump on a guy, you stand a good chance of winning in either plane.

 

I like them both more than I thought I would and will be flying them in the future.

 

There's a couple recent posts at DOGFIGHT DIARY if you want to check 'em out.

 

https://www.facebook.com/todtvonoben/

 

S! 👍

 

 

Edited April 8 by Todt_Von_Oben
Left out a word.

[No.23_Starling]

On 4/8/2025 at 5:49 AM, Todt_Von_Oben said:

I flew five 16-plane skirmishes last night; two in the Pusher and three in Eindekker. 

 

The "Spinning Incinerator" nickname is hard to understand.  I found the Airco D.H.2 easy to fly and land, and relatively maneuverable.  She's just a tad slow.

 

In contrast, the Eindekker is a tractor-type monoplane with a belt-fed Spandau 08 firing through the propeller.  It's a bit bigger and turns a little slower; but she's also a bit faster and you can actually push her around the aerobatic envelope with a fair degree of success.

 

We were flying 8-on-8 and the furballs got pretty hectic; to the point that being in a slower but more-maneuverable plane wasn't always a bad thing. 

 

Then again, the Eindekker can make good use of it's speed. 

 

But as always, the relative positioning and altitude of the opposing groups is going to be a major factor.  If you can get the jump on a guy, you stand a good chance of winning in either plane.

 

I like them both more than I thought I would and will be flying them in the future.

 

There's a couple recent posts at DOGFIGHT DIARY if you want to check 'em out.

 

https://www.facebook.com/todtvonoben/

 

S! 👍

 

 

Glad you’re having fun! The match up is fine for solo play. Taking the DH2 in MP though vs anything but Eindeckers is pretty brave

[Todt_Von_Oben]

Agreed.  Still, if a few live pilots could agree to meet in only those two planes, that would be a better test than I've been able to achieve with bots.  

 

I'll have to check and see if Flugpark has these planes yet. 

 

I know The Gang doesn't have them yet and flying either into one of their aggressive multi-bot furballs would pretty-much would be suicide.  But I'm going to try that today because, when you're totally outclassed, victory over superior odds (however infrequently it may occur) is sweeter.

 

Yeah, I know.  I'll probably be dogmeat.  😎

[Zooropa_Fly]

Oh for the good ol' RoF days when there were servers you could do crazy stuff like flying an S-16 into a swarm of Dr1's a minute from take off.

Great fun and great practice too.

[Todt_Von_Oben]

2 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

Oh for the good ol' RoF days when there were servers you could do crazy stuff like flying an S-16 into a swarm of Dr1's a minute from take off.

Great fun and great practice too.

 Yep.  When the aerodromes were so close, you could get shot down again and again and come right back. I spent many a happy hour dogfighting Moro and Mamo in their Camels.  Virtually constant air combat.  That was back when Plank was in his prime at being annoying and Arty Effem was a frequent adversary in his Nieuport.  Good times! 

 

But then again, every one of your custom-made maps are a hoot.  Last one I flew was "The Twilight Zone."  It's not often my Dr1 gets to joust with an Me-262.  Maybe one of these days I'll actually win!  🤣  

 

S!  👍

Edited April 9 by Todt_Von_Oben
punction

[Todt_Von_Oben]

Tonight, I tried some one-on-one head-on duels. 

 

The Eindekker was faster and harder to catch in the vertical environment. Generally, I found it easier to put the Airco into a firing position.  I did manage a couple sloppy Immelmann turns but lost it and had to recover from a dive more often than not.  Needs work.

 

In the Pusher, after some frantic control experiments, I was able to recover from two unintentional spins while dogfighting an E3.  I crashed the third time I spun it. 

 

Then I went up to 5,000 meters and did some intentional spins; left and right.  Again, after a lot of trying things that didn't work, I got her to level out two times.  But the airspeed indicator was pegged and the second time I pulled out, I no longer had rudder control.

 

The few times I got her out of a spin, I was trying things so fast I'm not sure what worked.  From what I've read lately, the plane did have a reputation for being tricky to handle and difficult to get out of a spin; and that's pretty much in synch with what I experienced tonight.

 

So, what do you think?  What is the spin-recovery technique for the Airco D.H.2?  Anybody know?

 

What did Hawker say about it?

 

EDIT: All I did was power-on spins tonight; forgot to try it with the mags off.  Next time.  

Edited April 10 by Todt_Von_Oben
additional question.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

53 minutes ago, Todt_Von_Oben said:

So, what do you think?  What is the spin-recovery technique for the Airco D.H.2?  Anybody know?

 

Look for it in Rise of flight forum/manual.

[AndyJWest]

5 hours ago, Todt_Von_Oben said:

So, what do you think?  What is the spin-recovery technique for the Airco D.H.2?  Anybody know?

 

What did Hawker say about it?

 

EDIT: All I did was power-on spins tonight; forgot to try it with the mags off.  Next time.  

 

Regarding the FC D.H.2, it's actually possible, if one is ham-fisted enough, to put it into a flattish right-hand spin that can (as far as I could tell) only be recovered from by holding the blip switch (since it has no throttle), and applying full right stick to unstall the right wing and/or cause adverse yaw to the left. Normally though, simply cutting engine power, neutralising the stick, and applying opposite rudder does the trick. 

[Todt_Von_Oben]

17 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Look for it in Rise of flight forum/manual.

I did without success.  I didn't see anything in the table of contents about spin recoveries at all.  I'll try again.  Thanks.

13 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

 

Regarding the FC D.H.2, it's actually possible, if one is ham-fisted enough, to put it into a flattish right-hand spin that can (as far as I could tell) only be recovered from by holding the blip switch (since it has no throttle), and applying full right stick to unstall the right wing and/or cause adverse yaw to the left. Normally though, simply cutting engine power, neutralising the stick, and applying opposite rudder does the trick. 

That's good to hear; I'll try it next time.  Thanks!

[Todt_Von_Oben]

13 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

A blast from the past from an email today..

 

Tell Todt von oben to "Get knotted :- ) " from me.

Also I would duel with Arty on his server a lot and we became quite chummy, if he was somewhat cold and distant, I would pour more brandy in his mug when he wasn't looking... At times I would be stuck underneath him, he his EIII, my good self in my DH2 and blaze away with my trophy automatic pistol which I won in a game of poker with the Germans when I had to crash land on their side, just before I yoinked a bottle brandy and legged it over no mans land back to base. They though it was all balderdash till I pulled out the gun. They still have no idea it was me in the officers mess who swiped the Christmas puddings. ( I passed them out to the blokes doing perimeter duty at our AF, stirling chaps all of them. ) Oh, where was I? Oh yes. Being annoying... I take that as a compliment and a badge of honour etc etc. I do remember having quite a lot of fun in the Camel doing vertical loops till the DR1's got shirty. Fun ! The old DH2 was not too bad against the DR1 if you used it wisely. Or was that unwisely... I forget. The trick is to not put any fuel in it... a teacup is the right amount. oh those were the days ! Where the side chat was full of sledging and tally ho chaps etc. The Gotha raids were the best. The cads were sneaking them in at tree top height. They soaked up a lot of bullets though. Oh I had better stop or some hall warden stooge is going to try to get me banned AGAIN ! ha ha ha. I did laugh. Scones and jam back in my dugout ! and the rats... The Brandy is on me! ( Swiped from the officers mess , AGAIN !)

 

Can you guess who ?

 

To borrow a line from The Blue Max, "You'll never change." 😊

 

I remember when we met.  I had only been flying ROF for a few months at most, and was on the aerodrome starting my Albatros when you swooped-in and busted my top wing with your landing gear.  (I think you might have done that twice, though I'm not sure of that at the moment.)  But on your last approach I fired a flare at you and your plane exploded.  

 

"Good for you, ya frikkin' jerk!" I thought.  

 

I had read the rules of conduct governing ROF, and it seemed like I had just been violated by a genuine A-hole; so I brought it to the Forum.  I was told basically  "That's how he is; get used to it."  😎

 

Still, I was feeling proud of myself for the kill; until J2 Raker explained "Flare guns can't shoot a plane down and he probably got hit by AA from the ground." 

 

OOPS.  Oh well...  🙃

 

After that, we fought more times than I can count and if I'm being honest I'd have to admit you won more often than I did.  

 

Then, I didn't see you for a while until, one day, there you were: right in front of my Dr1: in a 1-1/2 Strutter going after somebody else.  It felt like my lucky day.  

 

After all that had happened: to get the drop on you and blast the hojees out of your airframe (and I thought you were wounded, too) was extremely gratifying.  

 

As I recall, we turned a few times and I thought  you tried to ram me. (Understandable, under the circumstances.) 

 

Ultimately, you went down and impacted a second before the sortie ended.  I went back and checked the Recording: it was a good kill.   😁

 

So yes, my old Friend and Enemy, those were good times.  Good to hear from you again.  But just out of curiosity, do they still let you fly, or does the straight jacket prevent you from operating the controls?  🙂

 

And if you're still active, what alias are you using?  (Email Fly for a relay if that's sensitive info; which I expect it probably is.  LOL!)  

 

S! 👍

Edited April 11 by Todt_Von_Oben
word correction

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

5 hours ago, Todt_Von_Oben said:

did without success.  I didn't see anything in the table of contents about spin recoveries at all.  I'll try again.  Thanks.

 

[Todt_Von_Oben]

1 hour ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

 

I should be able to find the right appendix now, thank you!  And I'll try the technique indicated in red (above) Next time I fly.  

 

I have tried one accelerated power-on stall-spin to the left and the recovery was anything but automatic; absolute panic until something I did finally worked.  No idea what it was.  But then again, I had the engine running, not blipped.  I can see where killing the mags could make a world of difference.  It's almost latehere tonight  but I think I'm gonna fire up the MQ3 and take it for a spin.  (groan)  😎

[AndyJWest]

I'd be wary of assuming that spin recovery techniques for RoF will necessarily be applicable to FC. Flight models may be nominally the same, but things may have changed enough in the background for old techniques to be invalid. 

 

Incidentally, if anyone is interested in the complexities of real-world spins (and yes, it gets complicated, fast, which is why spin recovery techniques can vary widely for different aircraft), I recently came across what has to be the best publicly available not-written-for-PhD-aerodynamicists explanation of the physics and aerodynamics involved, in the RAF's Central Flying School Manual Of Flying. The 2020 edition was recently released under a FOI request, and you'll find the stuff on spins in Volume 1, Chapter 7. Download here. The other volumes have lots of other interesting stuff too.

[JFM]

In the book Hawker VC RFC Ace, written by his brother Tyrrel almost fifty years after Lanoe's death, he describes an event--mentioned earlier by No.23 Starling--where Hawker took a DH2 to "8000 feet" and conducted a series of left and right spins from which he--obviously--recovered. Details of control inputs or whether the spins were power on/off/both were not stated. 

 

As far as the belief Hawker was losing power on his fight with MvR--pure undocumented speculation. However, No.24 Sqn's DH2 *did* endure frequent engine problems. The DH2 Hawker flew on his last sortie was not "his," as the No.24 Sqn Record Books indicate each DH2 was flown by different pilots on different days. From 30 September to 23 November 1916, DH2 5964 was flown alternately by 2nd Lt S.E. Cowan, 2nd Lt Roche Kelly (who had the most hours in the machine), 2nd Lt J.H. Crutch (who flew a different DH2 along with Hawker on his last sortie but had to make a forced landing due to engine trouble, something almost always overlooked in published accounts), 2nd Lt R.H.M.S. Saundby, Capt. S.H. Long, 2nd Lt K. Crawford, and finally Lanoe Hawker. Hawker had one flight with the plane, the last one. In the Squadron Record Books, several sorties describe engine trouble or even failure with that airplane--but several sorties list no failures or problems at all, so engine problems were not absolute every sortie. And if Hawker was losing engine power during his last flight, as many contend, how was he able to conduct the sort of low-level aerobatics described by MvR, just before being killed? What is never mentioned, except for me, is that all eyewitness accounts/combat reports/squadron records reveal that Hawker fought an entirely defensive fight after No.24 Sqn was jumped by Jasta 2 as the DH2s followed Hawker chasing distant German two-seaters. I.e., Hawker had target fixation and never saw Jasta 2 diving down on them until it was too late. Andrews saw them coming but did not want to abandon Hawker as he chased the two-seaters--Hawker clearly never saw them, or else you believe he was such a poor combat pilot that he chose to fly a predictable flight path and take no evasive maneuvers in the face of oncoming Albatrosses attacking from superior tactical advantage. When he finally took evasive action, Hawker did the best he could--which was damn good--but he was up against the most tenacious pilot in the German air service, who never gave quarter, and who had shot down ten planes in the previous two months. Hawker hadn't a victory in over a year (Sept 1915) and IIRC only one credited single-seater, which he attained flying an FE2, and shared that victory with his gunner.  

Anyway, went down the side street here too far. Forgive me. 

[Todt_Von_Oben]

Very helpful and informative; thank you, JFM.  👍

 

EDIT: Since posting this, I've flown 23 QM Skirmishes: my Airco versus eight ace bots in the Dreidekker and Albatros D3.  I maneuvered so as to put my attackers in my six.  Got the schnit shot out of me 21 times.  Only caught fire twice: first one I was simultaneously shot dead; second time I survived to a landing but the fire blew out. 

 

So, while I have seen Ace Bots land a flaming Pusher; I have yet to do it myself and that's become something of a goal for me.  Maybe some day.  S!

Edited April 21 by Todt_Von_Oben
Additional info.

[AndyJWest]

I can't help thinking that with the volume of flames a burning D.H.2 engine puts out in FC, the tail would have been reduced to cinders long before you could land.

[Todt_Von_Oben]

6 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

I can't help thinking that with the volume of flames a burning D.H.2 engine puts out in FC, the tail would have been reduced to cinders long before you could land.

I'm guessing the tubes are welded steel; and maybe the steel cable rigging might survive long enough to make it to the ground.  But yeah, I agree: IRL, it seems to me the tail feathers would be toast pretty quickly.  👍

 

(At which point, without elevator or rudder, the Airco becomes a flaming lawn dart.  🤣)

Edited April 22 by Todt_Von_Oben
Additional thoughts added.

[AndyJWest]

4 hours ago, Todt_Von_Oben said:

I'm guessing the tubes are welded steel...

 

The booms would have been wood, and solid. 

 

There have been D.H.2 replicas built more recently; they used steel tubes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redfern_DH-2

[Todt_Von_Oben]

8 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

 

The booms would have been wood, and solid. 

 

There have been D.H.2 replicas built more recently; they used steel tubes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redfern_DH-2

Interesting Wiki article; thanks.  They are grey in the sim so I thought they were steel.  Surprised to learn the originals were wood.  But that's just more kindling for the bonfire, eh?  😉

[AndyJWest]

The British didn't really use steel for major structural components during WWI. That was much more of a German thing (Junkers, Fokker). And structurally, the D.H.2 tail boom is just a slight variation on the wooden longerons and spacers / steel diagonal wire truss type rear fuselage layout that was common to the vast majority of British WWI designs. And of course it owes its roots to Farman-type pushers that were being built long before anyone considered steel a sensible material for aircraft.

 

Geoffrey de Havilland started his career designing wooden aircraft, and took a lot of persuading to use anything else.

[Enceladus828]

Fire damage is not modelled in this game engine. It probably will be in the Korea engine.

 

See Luke's post below

Edited April 23 by Enceladus828

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Enceladus828 said:

Fire damage is not modelled in this game engine. It probably will be in the Korea engine.

 

Fire damage absolutely is modeled.