Bigscreen Beyond 2

[Varibraun]

From his YT Channel post today:

 

(Edit - It appears this comment has now been removed from the YT channel).

Edited March 1 by Varibraun

[Panzerlang]

But the Meganex "ruined him forever". Is "forever" now a relative term? In just a matter of days? Lol. The guy's a free-product whore and his 'reviews' are worthless.

[chiliwili69]

has been deleted? the link doesn´t work for me.

 

could it be the PlayForDream?

[Varibraun]

3 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

has been deleted? the link doesn´t work for me.

 

Yes, it appears he took it down (I will remove the dead link).  I actually first saw the reference to his comment in the Pimax discord.  There are a couple of people there pointing to something new coming from Big Screen Beyond.  I did also find this reference to something new in the video below at around 6:00 (video should start there).  He specifically says something like "pretty decent value for money" when he is contrasting it to the Meganex, so I think that probably something different than any of the Pimax headsets and it seems early for the mythical Deckard unless Valve really kept that under wraps.

 

 

Edited March 1 by Varibraun

[Aapje]

It's a headset that he got a preview version of, and I don't see Valve seeding their headsets with flight simmers. 

[chiliwili69]

21 hours ago, Varibraun said:

He specifically says something like "pretty decent value for money" when he is contrasting it to the Meganex

 

Thanks. Yes, that phrase could mean two things:

- Something cheap (below 600€), inferior to Crystal Super, VR1 or Meganex 8K but good for that money. 

- Something more expensive (above 2000€) a then better that anything else.

 

I think it is more the first thing.

 

For sure it is still early for Pimax Air Dream, they are still doing 3D printed prototypes, so they will need at least 3 months to send something to youtubers.

The upcoming PlayforDream is 1900US$, perhaps more.

Valve didn´t use you tubers for the pre-marketing of the Index. They launched the Index to the market when it was available to buy it: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/46988-valve-index-website-now-live/

 

 

So, what the hell could it be? 

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

On 3/2/2025 at 6:28 AM, chiliwili69 said:

 

Thanks. Yes, that phrase could mean two things:

- Something cheap (below 600€), inferior to Crystal Super, VR1 or Meganex 8K but good for that money. 

- Something more expensive (above 2000€) a then better that anything else.

 

I think it is more the first thing.

 

For sure it is still early for Pimax Air Dream, they are still doing 3D printed prototypes, so they will need at least 3 months to send something to youtubers.

The upcoming PlayforDream is 1900US$, perhaps more.

Valve didn´t use you tubers for the pre-marketing of the Index. They launched the Index to the market when it was available to buy it: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/46988-valve-index-website-now-live/

 

 

So, what the hell could it be? 

Pico 4 ultra?

[chiliwili69]

19 hours ago, 356thFS_Drewm3i-VR said:

Pico 4 ultra?

Pico 4 Ultra is already well known by everybody. It was releases october last year, There are already multiple reviews about it. An NDA for that doesn´t make sense.

[Aapje]

Pico also just makes Quest-clones, and they removed the display port with the latest iteration, making them even less distinctive. So I don't expect anything significant from them.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

7 hours ago, Aapje said:

Pico also just makes Quest-clones, and they removed the display port with the latest iteration, making them even less distinctive. So I don't expect anything significant from them.

The Ultra is supposedly a really good update:

 

-more processing power than Q3 (OC chip with good cooling)

-AV1 over VD and connect

-Much better software than Meta Link (which is utter garbage)

-higher res screens 

Edited March 4 by 356thFS_Drewm3i-VR

[Varibraun]

The Mystery was the BSB2:

 

 

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

They will never sell that thing in droves until they add inside-out tracking. It's 2025 for Pete's sake!

[Dagwoodyt]

I remember inside-out tracking from the Oddysey's and never want to go back to that.

As far as the BS2, I would only be interested if the Halo option materializes and proves usable without a custom face cushion. I refuse to tie up any funds in products that may never become available. The Halo option will supposedly ship in Q3. 🤣

 

Edited March 21 by Dagwoodyt

[chiliwili69]

Well, finally we know it.

 

I was tempted to try the previous BSB when they launched, but the low FOV and edge-to-edge clarity was bad.

Now it looks like this is at the Quest3 levels (which is the minimun required for me), so I might consider to finally try it.

One interesting thing is the individual IPD adjustment, it means that for asymetrical faces you can move each lens to the position of your eye.

 

In the past I have been using cable and one basestation with the Index, Vivepros and Pimax and that was fine.

 

At the end of teh day, VR devices are just a set of compromises.

 

For me, my priorities are:

1.-Good visuals (resolution, colors, etc)

2.-Good FOV

3.- Good Edge-to-edge clarity

4.- Comfort

5.- Good integrated audio

 

I am not interested in the Mixed reality or Standalone uses.

 

 

[Aapje]

12 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

I remember inside-out tracking from the Oddysey's and never want to go back to that.

 

It's not that easy to make a good inside-out tracking algorithm, but Meta nailed it. Pimax seems to be OK at it, but it took them a long time.

Edited March 21 by Aapje

[Dagwoodyt]

Correct me if I have misheard, but it sounds as though DFR is but an aspirational capability of the BS2.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

23 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

I remember inside-out tracking from the Oddysey's and never want to go back to that.

As far as the BS2, I would only be interested if the Halo option materializes and proves usable without a custom face cushion. I refuse to tie up any funds in products that may never become available. The Halo option will supposedly ship in Q3. 🤣

 

Inside-out tracking on the Quest 3 is fantastic! Even the G2 was solid in that regard. Who wants base stations? I, like many others, play this game on a 4090 laptop so why would I want to ruin my portable setup with base stations? To me, add-ons like base stations (and bulky headphones) defeat the whole purpose of a minimalist PCVR headset. 

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, 356thFS_Drewm3i-VR said:

Inside-out tracking on the Quest 3 is fantastic! Even the G2 was solid in that regard. Who wants base stations? I, like many others, play this game on a 4090 laptop so why would I want to ruin my portable setup with base stations? To me, add-ons like base stations (and bulky headphones) defeat the whole purpose of a minimalist PCVR headset. 

If inside-out tracking on the Q3 works in darkness/dim light that's a great improvement over my past experiences with the Samsung's. I've not bought a laptop since 2005. I went through 3 Quest Pro's and returned them all because the setup process insisted that I register as a "business account". Doing so would have put me immediately in violation of Meta's ToS. I'm just not a Meta fan.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

2 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

If inside-out tracking on the Q3 works in darkness/dim light that's a great improvement over my past experiences with the Samsung's. I've not bought a laptop since 2005. I went through 3 Quest Pro's and returned them all because the setup process insisted that I register as a "business account". Doing so would have put me immediately in violation of Meta's ToS. I'm just not a Meta fan.

I get that last point for sure...me neither but I love their Quest 3.

 

Never tried the pro but the tracking works pretty good in dim light--not dark, but dim. I always turn a light on either way for optimal tracking.

[Dagwoodyt]

19 minutes ago, 356thFS_Drewm3i-VR said:

the tracking works pretty good in dim light--not dark, but dim. I always turn a light on either way for optimal tracking.

I remember setting up an LED lamp in front of my monitor to aid tracking for the Samsung's.🙂

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

3 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

I remember setting up an LED lamp in front of my monitor to aid tracking for the Samsung's.🙂

Gotcha. We are way past that now with inside-out tracking.

[Aapje]

7 hours ago, 356thFS_Drewm3i-VR said:

Gotcha. We are way past that now with inside-out tracking.

 

Not if you want to play in the darkness. Then setting up an IR light gives the headset camera's something to work with.

[Aapje]

 

[BOO]

So where im at is I want to try a premium-esque VR headset with eye tracking but there just doesnt seem to be a a viable, obtainable or cost justifyable route from the old 10GB 3080.

 

Would the BSB2 with all the bells be something to consider given its lower native res? Im still far from sold on VR so if the answer is "no" I wont die in a ditch..

Edited March 23 by BOO

[Lusekofte]

21 minutes ago, BOO said:

So where im at is I want to try a premium-esque VR headset with eye tracking but there just doesnt seem to be a a viable, obtainable or cost justifyable route from the old 10GB 3080.

 

Would the BSB2 with all the bells be something to consider given its lower native res? Im still far from sold on VR so if the answer is "no" I wont die in a ditch..

We are at the same foundation, you and me. 
But until a certain chief call off the trade war, things got very easy for me. I stopped Patreon and PayPal , won’t buy anything 

Edited March 23 by Lusekofte

[BOO]

5 minutes ago, Lusekofte said:

We are at the same foundation, you and me. 
But until a certain chief call off the trade war, things got very easy for me. I stopped Patreon and PayPal , won’t buy anything 

 

Well Ive already fallen out of love with Novidia despite there being little in the way of alternative and, like you I have no intention of being further finanically victmised by ignorance and hubris coming from the direction of the setting sun.. With that said Im not seeing anything that indicates any of that on the BSB store page. Hell, after shelling out amost £250 shipping plus VAT and import duties of another £300 for the good ole european based monstertech stuff,the fact that even the postage is Free and VAT appears to also is upfront almost makes me want to buy it just for the expereince.

 

Sadly, whilst I can probably compromise in quality settings, in truth Im gonna need a bigger boat to fully enjoy the experience and one costing significanly more that it should whether bought new or taking a chance on a last season model still costing more than the original selling price. . So whilst my opinions on certain world leaders, their bizarre lackys and their apocalyptic policies are not very high, in the limited context of gaming, the real villian of the piece here remains a certain snake oil selling Taiwanese CEO. 

[Dagwoodyt]

Problem with the BSB2 is that the makers are taking a page from the Pimax playbook and teasing DFR capability and universal fitting halo that are supposedly coming sometime in the future. I am not going to even consider a purchase until those capabilities materialize. I have Index and Aero that run fine for my needs on a 3090Ti. I am doubting that anything coming will give that wow factor that my first Rift VR headset did. Having collected a number of base stations over time the BSB2 would be a natural for me if all capabilities promised are actually implemented. I balk at the face scan requirement so the halo strap would need to be available for me to buy. I wonder how seamlessly the BSB2, audio and halo strap would all fit together🤔

[chiliwili69]

One single thing which refrained me to try this headset is the massive GPU power which require to run it at the default resolution.

 

On the previous BSB, I asked to Bigscreen support about the deafult (means SteamVR at 100%) rendered resolution for the 75Hz mode (the best image quality) and they told it was 4360x4360 per eye. So it means that for 2x2560x2560=13.1 physical pixels you have to render 2x4360x4360= 38 million pixels at 75Hz!!  That´s is 2.9 times more!

 

 

If you listen to FlightSimGuy at minute 11:30 he said that the default resolution of the BSB2 is also 4360x4360, so it means that this new lenses doesn´t change anything in terms of rendered pixels for default resolution.

 

In conclusion, even a 5090 will not be able to render 38 million pixels at 75Hz. You will need to reduce SteamVR SS about to 80% to get 75fps in a 5090, and about 60% to get 75fps in a 4090. So, even with those top cards you will not get to true achievable resolution details of that device in IL-2. (since DFR is not implemented).

 

Edit: My previous numbers were wrong. See below posts.

Edited March 29 by chiliwili69

[Dagwoodyt]

Per Adam Savage's interview with the BSB2 CEO, their eye-tracking is for VRchat. He is essentially acknowledging that the BSB2e is probably not going to be DFR-capable.

[Goldwrench]

On 3/23/2025 at 1:40 PM, chiliwili69 said:

 

If you listen to FlightSimGuy at minute 11:30 he said that the default resolution of the BSB2 is also 4360x4360, so it means that this new lenses doesn´t change anything in terms of rendered pixels for default resolution.

 

 

That's odd. My BSB1 defaults to 3560 in SteamVR, i.e. around 40% SS. BSB2 has the same micro-OLED panels. My 7900XTX GPU has no problems at all with that in Il-2 (not the case with any other sim!). If I am at 3560, no AA or FXAA x2 and x4 will yield around 8ms GPU frame times or less, and if I drop SS to around 3200 pixels, I can run MSAA x2 and keep it around 10ms GPU frame times. This means I'm locked at the 75Hz refresh rate without reprojection ever kicking in. Because Il-2 is an older title, it doesn't load up the GPU like DX12 sims so there's more headroom for tons of pixels. 

[chiliwili69]

11 hours ago, shipdriver9314 said:

My BSB1 defaults to 3560 in SteamVR

 

About a year ago, when BSB1 was released I asked to their support what was the resolution, and this is what they told me:

 

 

So, I would like to ask you is what is the resolution shown in SteamVR when you set the device to 90Hz and also 75Hz , both setting the SteamVR Supersampling at 100% (Default).

[Goldwrench]

11 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

So, I would like to ask you is what is the resolution shown in SteamVR when you set the device to 90Hz and also 75Hz , both setting the SteamVR Supersampling at 100% (Default).

At 75Hz, SteamVR shows 3560 as 100% (with 4360 as 150%).

At 90Hz, it shows 2688 as 100% (with 3292 as 150%).

I just ran some missions at different resolutions: 

Running at 4360px and FXAA x4 dropped me into reprojection because the GPU frametime averaged around 14.8ms. Dropping to 3900px and FXAA x4 dropped the GPU frametime to around 10.8ms. Running at 3560px and FXAA x4 averaged around 9ms. Note these are with the High preset and mostly High graphics settings (High Shadows, High Clouds, x4 distant landscape detail, distant buildings checked) in-game. Because Il-2 is not a modern DX12 game, it has lot of GPU overhead for VR allowing pretty radical render resolutions. For the 8 people with 5090s, 4360 would be no problem, but the big takeaway for me, I couldn't tell any visual difference between 3560px, 3900px and 4360px except that initial aircraft spots were smaller at higher resolutions. If I drop to 3100-3200px with MSAA x2, it is noticeably less sharp (especially the cockpit dials, etc.) but aircraft at middle and long distances are a bit more pleasing to look at.

Edited March 28 by shipdriver9314

[chiliwili69]

15 hours ago, shipdriver9314 said:

At 75Hz, SteamVR shows 3560 as 100% (with 4360 as 150%).

At 90Hz, it shows 2688 as 100% (with 3292 as 150%).

 

Thank you very much for reporting these numbers, clearly the answer from BigScreenBeyond of one year ago was wrong. (I always thought it was too high).

 

Yesterday, BigScreenSupport replied me again with some questions I had about the new BSB2:

 

 

So, it aligned with your numbers. Therefore BSB and BSB2 has the same numbers and the same GPU requirements.

I correct the numbers I made previously so now the tables are:

 

[chiliwili69]

16 hours ago, shipdriver9314 said:

I just ran some missions at different resolutions: 

Running at 4360px and FXAA x4 dropped me into reprojection because the GPU frametime averaged around 14.8ms. Dropping to 3900px and FXAA x4 dropped the GPU frametime to around 10.8ms. Running at 3560px and FXAA x4 averaged around 9ms. Note these are with the High preset and mostly High graphics settings (High Shadows, High Clouds, x4 distant landscape detail, distant buildings checked) in-game. Because Il-2 is not a modern DX12 game, it has lot of GPU overhead for VR allowing pretty radical render resolutions

 

Many thanks also for giving these precious values of frametimes at different %SS. Putting them in a table there are:

 

And in a chart:

 

So, it is (as expected) a quite linear pattern. The threshold for reprojection at 75Hz is 13.3 ms ( just 1000/75), so you still have a good margin even using 120%SS.

 

All this is really making me think again to consider again this BSB2, since the required GPU power to fully use the power of those panels is now achievable.

And what it is even more important, that you were not visually noticing differences in the three tests.

Edited March 29 by chiliwili69

[chiliwili69]

These are the FOV numbers using WIMFOV that the support person gave me about BSB and BSB2.

 

This is the original BSB:

 

And this is the FOVs of BSB2:

Edited March 29 by chiliwili69

[chiliwili69]

On 3/27/2025 at 9:28 PM, shipdriver9314 said:

My 7900XTX GPU has no problems at all with that in Il-2

 

This is also an important piece of information from your GPU. In the past, perhaps more than a year ago, most of the tests we did with the IL-2 SYN_VANDER benchmark were delivering a bad performance of the AMD GPUs.

 

But now it looks like your lastest model of AMD, the 7900XTX, it is performing very well in IL-2 in VR. So we have another options beyond NVIDIA (which becaome very expensive very lately).

 

Only if you have time, it would be nice if you just run the SYN_VANDER test just in monitor, the CPU test and the GPU test (if you have a 4K monitor or TV).

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/66924-syn_vander-benchmark-v6-to-measure-il-2-performance-in-monitor-vr/

 

[chiliwili69]

On 3/29/2025 at 11:50 AM, chiliwili69 said:

All this is really making me think again to consider again this BSB2, since the required GPU power to fully use the power of those panels is now achievable.

And what it is even more important, that you were not visually noticing differences in the three tests

 

Well, after knowing a bit about the Crystal Super, I decided to try the BSB2 and I ordered it. Delivery on July. I will let you know how it improves my current Quest3.

For the time being I will update my 3080 to a better GPU: 4080? 4090? 5080? 7900 XT/XTX?

 

[Aapje]

I would suggest delaying that upgrade to July. Prices of GPUs are still very high, the 50-series drivers are very bad, and in particular for Europeans, the chance of better pricing in the future seems much higher than the reverse.

 

PS. I just checked and the prices in my EU country have dropped by hundreds of euros in just the past month, for popular cards, so there is huge downwards pressure on prices, and there is still quite a bit of room to go down further.

Edited April 15 by Aapje

[chiliwili69]

The usual through the lenses video of Tyriel comparing BSB1, MeganeX and Index!

 

 

If we compare that with the previous Q3 test it looks like the is not too much improvement:

 

 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

2 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

If we compare that with the previous Q3 test it looks like the is not too much improvement

Uplift in resolution and ppd is not that big. Would like to see Q3 vs HMD with 2800 and 3800 per eye.

Edited April 24 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk