Luftwaffe Y-Control (FuG-16ZYmod) for late war high altitude intercept missions / Replaced by Mod

[kraut1]

This Post will be replaced / continued by:

 

New Information 09.02.2025:

...and an example of the radar function above clouds for daylight bomber intercept missions:

 

 

New Information 08.02.2025:

-it will be a mod with selectable radio frequencies for radio navigation.

-there will be selectable radio zones for daylight intercept missions above the clouds.

-sufficient accuracy only for daylight intercept missions.

 

 

New information 22.01.2025:

Only a semi historic solution to simulate FuG 120 Bernhard, the AFN-2 of FuG-16ZY was only used for navigation to beacons.

 

What I will try to do:

I assume that the FuG-16ZY was modified:

FuG-16ZYmod: To avoid jamming / interception of the voice messages of Y-Jägerleitstelle:

The calculated bearings to the target are now transmitted by the Y-Jägerleitstelle via radio signals to the FuG-16ZYmod.

When the Y-Mode is activated the bearing to the target is calculated in a new Module under consideration of the Y-Signal and the actual heading of the fighter and displayed in the AFN-2 Indicator.

And the possibility to select the standard mode for Radio Navigation to beacons and the Y-Mode has to be implemented.

 

-Status draft

-The bearing to the target is shown in AFN-2 Indicator of the FuG-16ZY.

According to english Wikipedia the bearing was indicated in the cockpit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe_radio_equipment_of_World_War_II

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-Control_for_fighters

But I have asked for further confirmation the history forum.

 

-The idea is to have a simple group to be loaded into missions, nothing to be linked.

-primitive but working makeshift solution.(temporarily by complex triggers activated / deactivated NBDs)

-And to inform the player in a historic correct way about the bearing to the targets without HUD and moving symbols on the map.

-Could be integrated in mission / campaign generator template missions.

 

First IL-2 Great Battles Test Demo Video:

 

 

Edited February 27 by kraut1

[AEthelraedUnraed]

7 hours ago, kraut1 said:

-The bearing to the target is shown in AFN-2 Indicator of the FuG-16ZY.

According to english Wikipedia the bearing was indicated in the cockpit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe_radio_equipment_of_World_War_II

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-Control_for_fighters

 

It's been a while since I dived into the Y system... but as far as my knowledge goes, there seems to be something lost in translation. Where the Wikipedia says "using the direction finder the angle was measured," they meant the direction finder of the ground station, not the direction finder inside the fighter.

 

The Y-Verfahren was a purely passive system that was meant to free up more complex radar systems for use elsewhere. Before, if they wanted effective fighter guidance, one radar would track the enemy and another radar would track their own fighter(s). This was especially important for nightfighting, where you'd need to guide the night fighter to within a couple of 100m to make visual contact: constant and accurate measurements were needed of both the friendly fighter and the enemy bomber. However, this effectively means that you need half your radars to track your own fighters, which is a waste of resources.

 

The Y-Verfahren was in effect very similar to a modern transponder system, automatically sending a reply to a signal from the ground station. Based on the time it took for the signal to return in combination with a simple direction finder, it was possible to get an accurate location of the own fighters without needing a more expensive and complex radar system. Guidance would then proceed using traditional voice commands over the radio:

"Neue Kurier erfasst. Neue Rollbahn 340. Postkutsche 110. Kapelle 37."

"New enemy detected. Turn heading 340°. Enemy flies on course 110°. Enemy altitude 3700m."

 

To my knowledge, the AFN-2 was tuned to traditional radio beacons, with the vertical needle indicating direction and the horizontal needle giving a rough indication of the distance. The light in the centre of the AFN-2 would light up if the plane was directly over the beacon, although I think the radius for that in IL2 is somewhat on the short side. I think the AFN-2 could also be tuned to a Lorenz system for blind landings. But as far as I know, it wasn't meant to be tuned to any Y-tower transmissions. Although of course it's possible a traditional beacon would be placed near a Y station, or perhaps even that the continuous transmissions would function as such.

 

The reason I know all of this is that quite near my birthplace, three of these Y stations were located. Roughly at 52°04'07.5"N 5°56'11.3"E.

 

Aerial photograph of the Teerose 1 Y-station, at the above coordinates. Photo is taken with the south up, as you can see from the road network. Teerose 1 is visible near the top-right of the image, including the 5 towers corresponding to the 5 fighters they could simultaneously track.

 

"Luftnachrichtenhelferin" in front of one of the towers of the above station. Starting from I think 1942, women were increasingly used for non-combatant roles in order to free up men for the front.

 

In the nearby Diogenes bunker, the positions of friendly and enemy aircraft were projected by Luftnachrichtenhelferinnen onto a giant frosted glass wall, using projectors not unlike modern laser pointers. On the other side of the wall, fighter command would use this "live map" to make tactical decisions and guide their fighters.

Edited January 22 by AEthelraedUnraed

[kraut1]

6 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

 

To my knowledge, the AFN-2 was tuned to traditional radio beacons, with the vertical needle indicating direction and the horizontal needle giving a rough indication of the distance. The light in the centre of the AFN-2 would light up if the plane was directly over the beacon, although I think the radius for that in IL2 is somewhat on the short side. I think the AFN-2 could also be tuned to a Lorenz system for blind landings. But as far as I know, it wasn't meant to be tuned to any Y-tower transmissions. Although of course it's possible a traditional beacon would be placed near a Y station, or perhaps even that the continuous transmissions would function as such.

 

The reason I know all of this is that quite near my birthplace, three of these Y stations were located. Roughly at 52°04'07.5"N 5°56'11.3"E.

 

Aerial photograph of the Teerose 1 Y-station, at the above coordinates. Photo is taken with the south up, as you can see from the road network. Teerose 1 is visible near the top-right of the image, including the 5 towers corresponding to the 5 fighters they could simultaneously track.

 

"Luftnachrichtenhelferin" in front of one of the towers of the above station. Starting from I think 1942, women were increasingly used for non-combatant roles in order to free up men for the front.

 

In the nearby Diogenes bunker, the positions of friendly and enemy aircraft were projected by Luftnachrichtenhelferinnen onto a giant frosted glass wall, using projectors not unlike modern laser pointers. On the other side of the wall, fighter command would use this "live map" to make tactical decisions and guide their fighters.

Thanks very much for your reply!

Interesting for me: I have already considered "Teerose" (without intelligent radar function) a bit in my EMG Mod (locations of radar stations estimated):

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/83272-emg-by-vander-v84-nederland-41-44-v01-24032024/

 

Changed Later: @AEthelraedUnraed

Concerning the FuG16ZY:

I found some detailed data about FuG16ZY and I think you are right: in AFN-2 only bearings to beacons indicated:

https://www.cdvandt.org/Fugb-S-XVI-Z-ZY.pdf

The reason for the confusion is that the german wording "Zielflug" means directly translated "target flight", but in reality with this only direction finding to beacons is possible.

 

 

 

In respect of IL-2 GB and the limited radio / radar functions I think it is an alternative, to provide the pilots at least in a bit more realistic way with informations, better than moving symbols on the map.

And it could have some historical context when used as a simulation of the FuG 120 Bernhardine System:

https://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/hellschreiber-modes-other-hell.htm#intro

 

Edited January 22 by kraut1

[AEthelraedUnraed]

5 hours ago, kraut1 said:

That triple s looks so ridiculousss Can you Germans please just re-introduce the ß?

 

5 hours ago, kraut1 said:

In respect of IL-2 GB and the limited radio / radar functions I think it is an alternative, to provide the pilots at least in a bit more realistic way with informations, better than moving symbols on the map.

And it could have some historical context when used as a simulation of the FuG 120 Bernhardine System:

https://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/hellschreiber-modes-other-hell.htm#intro

 

Yes I agree that it's probably more realistic than not having anything at all, as is the case now. The Germans (as well as the US and the Britons) had pretty extensive guidance systems for their aircraft, and right now little of that is in game.

 

One small trick that you may find interesting if you want to get vectors to target - you know how the ground controller in-game will tell you if there's any enemy aircraft within range ("Bombers, 10 o'clock, high")? If you re-trigger the Attack Area MCU, it will re-send an updated message. If you use a timer loop such that the MCU gets re-triggered every 30s or so, it will give you a continuous flow of information about what direction the enemy is in. Even though it's a straight direction rather than an interception course, it'll get you there eventually.

 

5 hours ago, kraut1 said:

https://www.cdvandt.org/Fugb-S-XVI-Z-ZY.pdf

This website is a treasure trove for anyone interested in WW2 German radio and radar equipment. I can highly recommend it, even with its 90s design and sub-par structure.

Edited January 22 by AEthelraedUnraed

[kraut1]

1 hour ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

That triple s looks so ridiculousss Can you Germans please just re-introduce the ß?

 

One small trick that you may find interesting if you want to get vectors to target - you know how the ground controller in-game will tell you if there's any enemy aircraft within range ("Bombers, 10 o'clock, high")? If you re-trigger the Attack Area MCU, it will re-send an updated message. If you use a timer loop such that the MCU gets re-triggered every 30s or so, it will give you a continuous flow of information about what direction the enemy is in. Even though it's a straight direction rather than an interception course, it'll get you there eventually.

 

Concerning the ß/sss and typical german ä,ö,ü: in international software I am always a bit unsure how this is displayed on other computers with other language settings...😁

 

Your small trick: could be extremely useful for me. Could you please send me a very, very small example mission, if you have the time available.

[XQ_Lothar29]

On 1/21/2025 at 6:31 PM, kraut1 said:

New information 22.01.2025:

Only a semi historic solution to simulate FuG 120 Bernhard, the AFN-2 of FuG-16ZY was only used for navigation to beacons.

 

What I will try to do:

I assume that the FuG-16ZY was modified:

FuG-16ZYmod: To avoid jamming / interception of the voice messages of Y-Jägerleitstelle:

The calculated bearings to the target are now transmitted by the Y-Jägerleitstelle via radio signals to the FuG-16ZYmod.

When the Y-Mode is activated the bearing to the target is calculated in a new Module under consideration of the Y-Signal and the actual heading of the fighter and displayed in the AFN-2 Indicator.

And the possibility to select the standard mode for Radio Navigation to beacons and the Y-Mode has to be implemented.

 

-Status draft

-The bearing to the target is shown in AFN-2 Indicator of the FuG-16ZY.

According to english Wikipedia the bearing was indicated in the cockpit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe_radio_equipment_of_World_War_II

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-Control_for_fighters

But I have asked for further confirmation the history forum.

 

-The idea is to have a simple group to be loaded into missions, nothing to be linked.

-primitive but working makeshift solution.(temporarily by complex triggers activated / deactivated NBDs)

-And to inform the player in a historic correct way about the bearing to the targets without HUD and moving symbols on the map.

-Could be integrated in mission / campaign generator template missions.

 

First IL-2 Great Battles Test Demo Video:

 

 

I really like this mod.
But I have some questions... Does it work with any mission and can I use it again to return to the Base?
Thank you very much for your effort

[AEthelraedUnraed]

On 1/22/2025 at 1:08 PM, kraut1 said:

Your small trick: could be extremely useful for me. Could you please send me a very, very small example mission, if you have the time available.

Here you are. The spotter re-transmits the vectors to target every 20s.

guidance_MWE.zip

[kraut1]

47 minutes ago, XQ_Lothar29 said:

I really like this mod.
But I have some questions... Does it work with any mission and can I use it again to return to the Base?
Thank you very much for your effort

I think I will soon release a preliminary version.

-For me easy and quick installation has high priority.

If you have a mission with only one bomber unit, maybe with close escort and one interceptor unit you could just load the group into the mission and move it to the intended location. Only for bearings to the target.

 

In missions with multiple allied Units we have to consider the in reality complex work of the Y-Jägerleitstelle to filter only the one enemy target squadron.

Because of this my idea is to change only one or two allied bombers of the target squadron to an alternative allied nation, eg. US/UK as default and RU as alternative nation.

This can be done with some mouse clicks in ME. The Y-Control NBDs have to be in this case RU too.

 

The other topic is too switch the mode between radio navigation and Y-Control to targets:

-usage of the default arty spotting flash script for activating deactivating the Y-System and alternativly the standard radio navigation mode.

-usage of the complex trigger / flare fired for the activating deactivating the Y-System and alternativly the standard radio navigation mode.

-Y-Controlled (players) fighter could be connected with hopefully only 1 link to the flash script:

   -by default player in standard mode is of course german

  -by activating of 1 button of the flash script the player plane is changed to italian.

  -the Y-beacons are italian too, now guidance to target works.

  -after visual contact to bombers another button of the flash script is activated by the player and the player is german again and he can use the beacons for navigation as usual.

This is one possibility that could work with existing missions.

I will care for compatibility with EMG by Vander

 

[kraut1]

6 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Here you are. The spotter re-transmits the vectors to target every 20s.

guidance_MWE.zip 3.65 kB · 1 download

Thanks very much!

This function has as far as I can see a huge potential to be used in modifications!

There is only 1 big issue: the current soundengine.cfg!

The current soundengine.cfg contains about 30%-50% really important messages but the rest is just unneccessary chatting.

It is great, when I hear the voice of the spotter and he informs me about the target and the bearing / range / and sometimes even if the target is higher / lower

But what is absolutely unnecessary is MY! automatic reply that I have spotted the targets.

 

About 2 years ago I made a small mod of the soundengine.cfg to eliminate the messages that I am attacking planes that I have in reality not seen. This was comparable easy and I use it for each mission that I fly.

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/81471-mod-to-deactivate-message-player-callsign-is-attacking-enemy-fighters/

 

But today I was not able to locate this unnecessary message, that I have spotted the targets.

Do you know, where in the soundengine.cfg this message is located?

[kraut1]

13 hours ago, kraut1 said:

It is great, when I hear the voice of the spotter and he informs me about the target and the bearing / range / and sometimes even if the target is higher / lower

But what is absolutely unnecessary is MY! automatic reply that I have spotted the targets.

 

 

@AEthelraedUnraed

I am now able to deactivate at least this unwanted reply:

[kraut1]

I have checked today the pure voice solution with the attack_area - spotter -cover combination as a permanently running radar.

-Because the cover command is permanently running it is disturbed by all events like waypoints, radio commands by leader.

-and the voice commands are confused if enemy bombers and fighters appear. Only one enmy plane type works.

-This type of radar could be used for pure Interceptor vs bomber (without escorts) missions over middle-Germany 1943

-or for test for 1 "Night Fighter" vs 1 Bomber missions. But for this the accuracy is normally not sufficient.

-maybe at night together with searchlights or with bright moonlight as it was in march 1943 over Nuernberg.

 

I think the only semi historic usage AFN-2 is required for more flexible design.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

On 1/25/2025 at 3:25 PM, kraut1 said:

-or for test for 1 "Night Fighter" vs 1 Bomber missions. But for this the accuracy is normally not sufficient.

Yeah I've been trying for a while to create night fighter missions, and while it works, I agree that it's far from perfect. Note that your fighter's response is ironically a bit more accurate than what the ground controller tells you; "bomber to the northeast" - "roger, bomber, 2 o'clock". The "2 o'clock" is accurate enough to find your target in the dark, but it still isn't ideal.

 

Therefore, I've come up with a way that does work, which I'm now developing. See

for a sneak preview.

Edited January 27 by AEthelraedUnraed

[kraut1]

38 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Yeah I've been trying for a while to create night fighter missions, and while it works, I agree that it's far from perfect. Note that your fighter's response is ironically a bit more accurate than what the ground controller tells you; "bomber to the northeast" - "roger, bomber, 2 o'clock". The "2 o'clock" is accurate enough to find your target in the dark, but it still isn't ideal.

 

Therefore, I've come up with a way that does work, which I'm now developing. See

for a sneak preview.

This is really great!

During my tests I used only single seat fighters, but of course the reports of the gunner are very helpfull too.

I think I will focus from now to day missions!

 

@XQ_Lothar29 I think this post by AEthelraedUnraed is very interesting for you.

 

Concerning the possibility of  gunner messages I have suggested to add invisible "fake gunners" to single seat fighters to create warnings during dogfights.

In my campaign missions I use a mixture of only range dependent messages (Wingman Warning Messages) and Checkzone created messages with the Grid Position.

 

[kraut1]

 New Information 08.02.2025:

-it will be a mod with selectable radio frequencies for radio navigation.

-there will be selectable radio zones for daylight intercept missions above the clouds.

-sufficient accuracy only for daylight intercept missions.

 

[kraut1]

 ...and an example of the radar function above clouds for daylight bomber intercept missions:

 

[21.Gr.CT.Ludovisi]

Reading about this mod let me think about the great radar mod of the old 1946 and other related things... like german nightfighers and their Schrage Musik. I'd like to known if this kind of guns (and relative aiming system) could be add as mods or this sim don't permit this level of modding.

[kraut1]

1 hour ago, 21.Gr.CT.Ludovisi said:

Reading about this mod let me think about the great radar mod of the old 1946 and other related things... like german nightfighers and their Schrage Musik. I'd like to known if this kind of guns (and relative aiming system) could be add as mods or this sim don't permit this level of modding.

Hi,

I can remember too.

The Command & Control mod was great with different Ground Radars and Radars for planes, all with subtitle messages.

And at the end they created really working Lichtenstein Radars with real radar screens.

I will continue working on a more simple daylight solution, but with selectable "frequencies" for different radar zones and radio navigation beacons.

@AEthelraedUnraed is working on a more sophisticated solution for Night Fighter Missions:

 

[AEthelraedUnraed]

2 hours ago, 21.Gr.CT.Ludovisi said:

Reading about this mod let me think about the great radar mod of the old 1946 and other related things... like german nightfighers and their Schrage Musik. I'd like to known if this kind of guns (and relative aiming system) could be add as mods or this sim don't permit this level of modding.

I'm indeed working on a radar mod. The early-type radar guidance from a centralised ground control station already works; I'm now working on an in-flight widget that mimics a FuG202/220. The image below is a capture of what it currently looks like (the "Elevation" text is just for debugging purposes).

 

However, I don't have any experience with modding the locations and shooting directions of weapons and frankly, I don't think that can be done. Fore sure, editing the 3d model doesn't work. So that rules out any Schräge Musik.