Damaged plane faster than non-damaged and other irritating bugs

[Dupxo]

Hello,

 

Damaged aircraft is faster (MUCH faster) than non - damaged. I don't get it at all. I have noticed this long time ago almost at once when i bought Flying Circus. For me this is sim-breaking bug and should be corrected immediately.

 

Just test it yourself. Grab a pistol and shoot several times at your wings. You get additional +5, 10, even 20 kph top speed. The more damage you take the more speed you get.

 

BTW. Bullet from pistol do way more damage than bullet from MG. You can almost cut your wing by firing 2 magazines from Colt .45 at your wing. This is quite silly too. If planes in FC can survive dozens (or hundreds) of bullets from MGs, the damage from pistols and revolvers should be negligible.

 

Back to the topic - maybe i am stupid, but for me holes and damage (structure deforming) should cause more drag and thats why top speed should be radically decreased, not increased, after taking damage. Now non-engine damage = rocket boost to your plane.

 

Everyone are waiting for new planes, but i hope i am not the only person here that waits for correcting these long term bugs and unneeded "features":

 

1. Damaged plane is faster than brand new non-damaged one - it affects all planes in FC.

2. Personal guns do more damage than MG.

3. There is no fuel tank fire. Fuel leak doesn't mean that you are more prone to fire.

4. Dead pilots and gunners bodies dissapper after couple of seconds.

5. No Man's Land is ugly and looks like placeholder. NML in RoF with bump-map mod from Ankor looks 10 times better. Instead of better NML we will get Paris, which is AWAY from frontline. Frankly, it is wasted time of artists/designers IMO.

6. Some aircraft sustains absurdally high wings overload (9-10 Gs in canvas plane - unbelievable).

7. Germans use parachutes in 1916 and 1917 instead of late 1918 only. What is worse, they are working all the time - 100% propability of success. In real life about 60% pilot's chutes opened succesfully in that time.

 

 

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, Dupxo said:

Damaged aircraft is faster (MUCH faster) than non - damaged. I don't get it at all. I have noticed this long time ago almost at once when i bought Flying Circus. For me this is sim-breaking bug and should be corrected immediately.

 

Just test it yourself. Grab a pistol and shoot several times at your wings. You get additional +5, 10, even 20 kph top speed. The more damage you take the more speed you get.

 

You need to upload at least one track file here showing such behavior. You've not explained at all here what plane(s) you have seen this behavior with, weather conditions, etc. 

 

2 hours ago, Dupxo said:

BTW. Bullet from pistol do way more damage than bullet from MG. You can almost cut your wing by firing 2 magazines from Colt .45 at your wing. This is quite silly too. If planes in FC can survive dozens (or hundreds) of bullets from MGs, the damage from pistols and revolvers should be negligible.

 

See above.

 

2 hours ago, Dupxo said:

Dead pilots and gunners bodies dissapper after couple of seconds.

 

By design, not being changed. It's done this way to free up CPU overhead.

 

2 hours ago, Dupxo said:

Some aircraft sustains absurdally high wings overload (9-10 Gs in canvas plane - unbelievable).

 

Track files, please. 🙂

 

2 hours ago, Dupxo said:

Germans use parachutes in 1916 and 1917 instead of late 1918 only. What is worse, they are working all the time - 100% propability of success. In real life about 60% pilot's chutes opened succesfully in that time.

 

I'm not aware of any plans to change this.

[Aapje]

9 hours ago, Dupxo said:

What is worse, they are working all the time - 100% probability of success. In real life about 60% pilot's chutes opened successfully in that time.

 

I don't trust this claim. How did they distinguish between a failed opening and pilots bailing out too low, pilots being flung out of an aircraft or such? And how many of these were a skill issue of the pilot, which you can't really replicate well?

 

Also, this game doesn't model malfunctions other than those caused by combat damage or the pilot destroying the engine. Malfunctions that are not in the pilots control tend to be considered rather frustrating by players.

[Talisman]

4 hours ago, Aapje said:

 

I don't trust this claim. How did they distinguish between a failed opening and pilots bailing out too low, pilots being flung out of an aircraft or such? And how many of these were a skill issue of the pilot, which you can't really replicate well?

 

Also, this game doesn't model malfunctions other than those caused by combat damage or the pilot destroying the engine. Malfunctions that are not in the pilots control tend to be considered rather frustrating by players.

 

The parachutes in question are not free-fall parachutes with their own opening methods (rip cord and sprung pilot chute).  Instead, these German WW1 emergency escape parachutes need a static line attached to the aircraft to pull out the parachute in order to operate them successfully (the aircraft itself is part of the operating system).  Clearly, the need to be attached to a damaged aircraft by static line in the event of an emergency presents a very significant risk and is far from ideal.  The significant inherent risk of failure associated with the static line operating system for aircraft emergency escape was eventually overcome by using free-fall emergency escape parachutes with their own inbuilt opening systems.       

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[Dr1falcon500]

Yeah all valid points from Talisman. Planes bouncing twice the height need fixing too like something out of a cartoon. Extensive structural or even engine damage doesn't slow a plane at all. I've flown my plane for 15 minutes plus with leaking radiator and oil tank. German use of parachutes  before around June 1918 is particularly absurd. 

Edited November 13, 2024 by LukeFF
Knock it off with the name-calling

[Aapje]

@Talisman

 

Yes, I get that, but then to be accurate you would need to model the aircraft damage in relation to the parachute system, the way that the airplane is flying and how the pilot exits the aircraft.

 

You will always fail to mimic realism for the last one, and it seems like an absurd amount of effort to mimic the first two correctly, for the gains.

[Talisman]

On 11/13/2024 at 3:44 PM, Aapje said:

@Talisman

 

Yes, I get that, but then to be accurate you would need to model the aircraft damage in relation to the parachute system, the way that the airplane is flying and how the pilot exits the aircraft.

 

You will always fail to mimic realism for the last one, and it seems like an absurd amount of effort to mimic the first two correctly, for the gains.

 

However, what I have highlighted might explain why the information that the chute only worked about two-thirds of the time, as per item 4 on the above diagram, should be taken seriously.   

 

The in-game bail out graphics appear to take no account of the static line design function and appear to work as if they were a free-fall parachute (cut and paste from WW2 graphics).  Also, the parachutes open very fast and even open with the parachute canopy apex withdrawing when facing away from the aircraft, as if pulled out by a god like hand, rather than the parachute canopy apex being withdrawn as attached to the aircraft.  With free fall parachutes the canopy deploys first, drawn out by the pilot chute.  With static line parachutes the rigging lines are drawn out first and the canopy last.  We seem to have cut and paste advanced WW2 free-fall emergency escape parachutes instead of WW1 technology.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[PatrickAWlson]

30 minutes ago, Talisman said:

 

We seem to have cut and paste advanced WW2 free-fall emergency escape parachutes instead of WW1 technology.

 

We don't seem to have.  We did  .  And then we advanced that 1939 technology to 1916.  I would prefer that parachutes not be implemented at all.  TBH the fact that parachutes are always available is more bothersome to me than the 100% success rate.  How hard is it to but an if statement in the code ...

Their logic already says 
 

parachute = false;

if (German)  

    parachute = true;

 

All they have to do is:

if (German && date > 6/1/1918)

    parachute = true;

 

If you are in a QMB and you don't know the date, just make parachutes not available.  It's a QMB - who cares.

Edited November 14, 2024 by PatrickAWlson

[BMA_Hellbender]

On 11/13/2024 at 1:06 AM, Dupxo said:

1. Damaged plane is faster than brand new non-damaged one - it affects all planes in FC.

 

On 11/13/2024 at 3:45 AM, LukeFF said:

You need to upload at least one track file here showing such behavior. You've not explained at all here what plane(s) you have seen this behavior with, weather conditions, etc. 

 

 

Track file: freeflight.2024-11-14_23-04-26_00.zip 

 

• Quick mission
• Custom settings: Expert settings + instrument panel + allow spectators
• Kuban Spring map
• Free flight, start from 300m
• SPAD XIII, ~70% fuel, no modifications
• 15:00 + no wind + no turbulence
• Autolevel at about 10m ASL with radiator at ~50% and mixture adjusted for max RPM
• Wait for 30-60 seconds for speed to stabilise

Undamaged wings: ~215km/h

 

 

 

 

Damaged lower wings with rounds from Colt 1911 personal weapon distributed across both lower wings: ~230km/h

 

 

 

 

Interesting, in all my years of playing I didn't know this was the case.

 

 

 

On 11/13/2024 at 1:06 AM, Dupxo said:

6. Some aircraft sustains absurdally high wings overload (9-10 Gs in canvas plane - unbelievable).

 

On 11/13/2024 at 3:45 AM, LukeFF said:

Track files, please. 🙂

 

 

Track file: freeflight.2024-11-14_23-09-21_00.zip

 

• Quick mission
• Custom settings: Expert settings + instrument panel + allow spectators
• Kuban Spring map
• Free flight, start from 2000m
• Pfalz D.IIIa, ~70% fuel, no modifications
• 15:00 + no wind + no turbulence
• Enter a straight down (virtually negative) power on dive and wait for speed to build to ~255km/h (engine is likely to quit)
• Pull up sharply

 

 

 

 

I am usually able to hit ~10G without suffering any structural damage to the wings.

[ST_Catchov]

On 11/13/2024 at 10:06 AM, Dupxo said:

Instead of better NML we will get Paris, which is AWAY from frontline. Frankly, it is wasted time of artists/designers IMO.

 

I'll not argue with you about NML. It's crap and we deserve better. But maybe it's an optimisation thing? Limitations of the engine? But it's still crap.

 

As for Paris, now listen up son, if they can do Paris, they can do London. And if they can do London, they can do Zeppelins. And if they can do Zeppelins, they can do BE12's to protect London. 😃 And if that doesn't work they can do the Sopwith Comic (look it up). And then the Channel map to give the Gotha's something to do. And if they can do that, well heck, they can do Italy. WTFN. I don't see anyone averse to the idea when I look around the room. Well, maybe one.

 

Your other points are pertinent, concise and draw us to a raft of FC's limitations and oversights. Well done.

 

Lastly, a tip of the hat to Hellbent for providing tracks, oft requested by the WebMaster. To be or not to be, that is the question.

 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

11 hours ago, =IRFC=Hellbent said:

Interesting, in all my years of playing I didn't know this was the case.

Yes, but recently they fixed - reduced the wings  shaking started after one bullet from a personal weapon.  This fix might bring this bug.

Edited November 15, 2024 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[Trooper117]

One step forward, two steps back... my god, they are reproducing real life outcomes!  

[LukeFF]

17 hours ago, =IRFC=Hellbent said:

 

 

 

Track file:  freeflight.2024-11-14_23-04-26_00.zip 1.01 MB · 1 download  

 

• Quick mission
• Custom settings: Expert settings + instrument panel + allow spectators
• Kuban Spring map
• Free flight, start from 300m
• SPAD XIII, ~70% fuel, no modifications
• 15:00 + no wind + no turbulence
• Autolevel at about 10m ASL with radiator at ~50% and mixture adjusted for max RPM
• Wait for 30-60 seconds for speed to stabilise

Undamaged wings: ~215km/h

 

 

 

 

Damaged lower wings with rounds from Colt 1911 personal weapon distributed across both lower wings: ~230km/h

 

 

 

 

Interesting, in all my years of playing I didn't know this was the case.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Track file:  freeflight.2024-11-14_23-09-21_00.zip 502.29 kB · 1 download

 

• Quick mission
• Custom settings: Expert settings + instrument panel + allow spectators
• Kuban Spring map
• Free flight, start from 2000m
• Pfalz D.IIIa, ~70% fuel, no modifications
• 15:00 + no wind + no turbulence
• Enter a straight down (virtually negative) power on dive and wait for speed to build to ~255km/h (engine is likely to quit)
• Pull up sharply

 

 

 

 

I am usually able to hit ~10G without suffering any structural damage to the wings.

 

Alright, our engineers are going to look into this issue. Thank you for the extra information!

[Dr1falcon500]

I don't have any track files because I don't keep any unless I need to. This French gent was able dive away with extensive damage and not have his plane break up. Even in level flight still racing away. Even if visual damage doesn't always equal real damage still enough to slow the plane through drag. Most of this damage was flak.

[Dupxo]

@LukeFF

 

Here is a pack of several planes, but you must believe me that this situation (damaged planes faster than non-damaged) happens for all aircrafts in game. Also on the track files you can see how much (too much) damage pistol does (every pistol, but i was using Colt only).

 

Conditions: WWI Western Front Spring Map, no wind, no turbulence, no haze etc., altitude 500m, mods turned-off in options, full fuel load, no modifications for plane, mixture adjusted for max RPM, file record started when the max speed of non-damged plane has been established.

 

Very fast damaged planes + huge pistol damage_2.zip

Addtionaly i attach .trk file which shows that Albatros D2 can take 7G overload with no problems at all.

 

At another .trk file you can see that even Fokker D8's thick wing is breaking on 7G overload.

 

Test conditions: WWI Western Front Spring Map, no wind, no turbulence, no haze etc., start altitude 2000m, mods turned-off in options, full fuel load, no modifications for plane,

albd2_insane_7G.zip

fokkerd8_7G_NOPE.zip

Edited November 15, 2024 by Dupxo

[PatrickAWlson]

On 11/12/2024 at 9:45 PM, LukeFF said:

I'm not aware of any plans to change this.

If possible, it would be nice if they can revisit this.  I'm not talking about implementing a fully WWI realistic static line animation or implementing parachute failure rates.  Just don't make German pilots bail out of EIndeckers in 1916.

Since allied WWI pilots do not have parachutes, there is a check somewhere in the code that prevents this.  

parachute = true;

if (WW! && !German)  

    parachute = false;

I am asking for a date check to be added to prevent the EIndecker pilot bailing out scenario.

parachute = true;

if (WW! && !German && date < 6/1/1918)  

    parachute = false;

If it's as low hanging as it seem sit should be, please have somebody take 30 minutes to do something like this.  German pilots bailing out in 1916 really is out of place for something that calls itself a simulator.

 

Thanks for listening.

Edited November 16, 2024 by PatrickAWlson

[Dupxo]

54 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

If possible, it would be nice if they can revisit this.  I'm not talking about implementing a fully WWI realistic static line animation or implementing parachute failure rates.  Just don't make German pilots bail out of EIndeckers in 1916.
 

 

I don't understand why it is such a problem to implement parachute failure to this sim. Parachute failures were implemented in many old sims like Combat Flight Simulator 2, IL-2 Cliffs of Dover and old sims from '90 and early 2000 which were so unpopular that I even can't remember their names. Emergency parachutes were not reliable in World War 2 and they were even more unreliable in 1918.

 

Since '90 sim developers have programmed parachutes failures and that was OK. Thank God we still have random gun jams.

 

On 11/13/2024 at 4:44 PM, Aapje said:

@Talisman

 

Yes, I get that, but then to be accurate you would need to model the aircraft damage in relation to the parachute system, the way that the airplane is flying and how the pilot exits the aircraft.

 

You will always fail to mimic realism for the last one, and it seems like an absurd amount of effort to mimic the first two correctly, for the gains.

 

What the heck are you talking about 😄? You just have to write simple line of code that parachute will open only 50% of the time. You don't have to model details, what for?

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

If possible, it would be nice if they can revisit this.  I'm not talking about implementing a fully WWI realistic static line animation or implementing parachute failure rates.  Just don't make German pilots bail out of EIndeckers in 1916.

Since allied WWI pilots do not have parachutes, there is a check somewhere in the code that prevents this.  

parachute = true;

if (WW! && !German)  

    parachute = false;

I am asking for a date check to be added to prevent the EIndecker pilot bailing out scenario.

parachute = true;

if (WW! && !German && date < 6/1/1918)  

    parachute = false;

If it's as low hanging as it seem sit should be, please have somebody take 30 minutes to do something like this.  German pilots bailing out in 1916 really is out of place for something that calls itself a simulator.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

I'll ask about this and see if anything can be done. 

2 hours ago, Dupxo said:

Thank God we still have random gun jams.

 

Misfires 🙂

[Han]

There is a mention that first combat use of parachute was in Apr.1

We will make it available from 18 Jan.1

[=IRFC=Tunes]

5 hours ago, Han said:

There is a mention that first combat use of parachute was in Apr.1

We will make it available from 18 Jan.1

Excellent news! I'm hoping that this will be possible for multiplayer gameplay/missions as well? If so, it's a feature that the community has long awaited.