Korea. IL-2 Series Dev Blog #15: Tu-2 Bomber

[LukeFF]

Dev Blog #15 for Korea: IL-2 Series is now live: https://il2-korea.com/news/dd_15

 

[Avimimus]

I'm going to ask this - mainly because I know everyone else is going to ask:

 

We all know it is hard to upgrade aircraft to the new standard? But what about downgrading aircraft to the old standard? 😄Even if just AI, it'd be pretty cool for Odessa/Karelia.

 

P.S. I suspect this increases the likelihood we'll see an AI B-26 (A-26)... we shouldn't count our eggs before we hatch - maybe the counterpart of the Tu-2 is the B-29? But it would make a lot of sense to have the B-26(A-26) if we're getting the Tu-2...

[Enceladus828]

I've been dying to fly this plane for over 15 years, now it's a reality!!

[Nickkyboy99]

Just now, Enceladus828 said:

I've been dying to fly this plane for over 15 years, now it's a reality!!

Same.. but on the Eastern front.. 😕

[Avimimus]

13 minutes ago, Enceladus828 said:

I've been dying to fly this plane for over 15 years, now it's a reality!!

 

Alas, probably not flyable though! 😄

[Aapje]

30 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

We all know it is hard to upgrade aircraft to the new standard? But what about downgrading aircraft to the old standard? 😄Even if just AI, it'd be pretty cool for Odessa/Karelia.

 

Someone/you asked this exact question on YouTube and the answer was: Not happening, sorry

 

This makes sense, since it would mean implementing it again using different technology.

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

We all know it is hard to upgrade aircraft to the new standard? But what about downgrading aircraft to the old standard? 😄Even if just AI, it'd be pretty cool for Odessa/Karelia.

 

Was that your comment as well on YouTube? 😛 Yes, I don't think that's going to happen.

[Jackfraser24]

I think that they have done a really good job with their Tu-2, judging by the screenshot that they have shown. This will be a good game. Looking forwards to December 2025. 

[Avimimus]

Admittedly it is a little bit galling to see such a nice model of such a long awaited aircraft (I recall wanting it in the original Il-2 FB days)... and knowing that it likely won't be flyable and the AI will mainly be active at night! 😄 But it is still nice to see it!

 

I suppose we could create an alternative history scenario where the war breaks out in 1948, the Soviets commit large numbers of aircraft, and both sides are flying piston aircraft during daytime (with a few F-80 units)?

[GOA_Karaya_VR]

Beautiful model, shame that is only AI.

 

Regards,

[AEthelraedUnraed]

"The crew consisted of 4 persons: pilot, navigator-gunner behind the pilot, gunner-radio operator, co-pilot."

 

In the screenshots I can only see two people in the cockpit: the pilot and the navigator/gunner. Where is the co-pilot located? Isn't he in the cockpit?

Edited November 8, 2024 by AEthelraedUnraed

[Avimimus]

7 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

"The crew consisted of 4 persons: pilot, navigator-gunner behind the pilot, gunner-radio operator, co-pilot."

 

In the screenshots I can only see two people in the cockpit: the pilot and the navigator/gunner. Where is the co-pilot located? Isn't he in the cockpit?

 

I suspect the crew position (4) is the 'Co-pilot/Navigator/Gunner'... and I'm not sure which of the crew had the radio (possibly one of the rear gunners)?

[Rei-sen]

Now the two-engined bombers aren't flyable too. But at least they have two physical models now, what a progress!👍

Edited November 8, 2024 by Rei-sen

[AnKor]

13 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

which of the crew had the radio (possibly one of the rear gunners)?

Yes, #10 is labelled as "gunner-radio operator station"

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Its an act of divine mercy that you're being blocked from flying piston bombers against jets and super props.

[Avimimus]

34 minutes ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

Its an act of divine mercy that you're being blocked from flying piston bombers against jets and super props.

 

Some of us want a flyable Morane-Saulnier L, so that might not dissuade us... that said, I did successfully shoot down a Ju-52 with an Li-2 on my first attempt (note: I did so without using the gunners)... I still haven't managed to shoot down an Me-262 with an Li-2 yet though...

[Avimimus]

 

The quality of the canopy is really impressive. One can really see how the new tech, combined with research and excellent artistry is really setting a new standard!

[Avimimus]

I've moved the speculation about airplane lists for possible DLCs to this thread:

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

 

 I still haven't managed to shoot down an Me-262 with an Li-2 yet though...

I bagged a 262 while in a Brewster in the original IL2.  The 262 pilot was not a happy camper.

[Jackfraser24]

7 hours ago, Avimimus said:

I've moved the speculation about airplane lists for possible DLCs to this thread:

 

It's probably better there anyway. Thanks for moving it. 

[Juri_JS]

I wonder what types of missions were flown by Tu-2s during the Korea war. I can only find information on the Taehwa-do island raids.

[BlackSix]

14 hours ago, Avimimus said:

We all know it is hard to upgrade aircraft to the new standard? But what about downgrading aircraft to the old standard? 😄Even if just AI, it'd be pretty cool for Odessa/Karelia.

Can't answer about Leningrad 1944 now but we don't need Tu-2 for the Odessa 1944. There were A-20Gs and Pe-2s only in the VVS regiments and A-20s and IL-4s in the Black Sea Fleet Air Force.

[FeuerFliegen]

4 minutes ago, BlackSix said:

Can't answer about Leningrad 1944 now but we don't need Tu-2 for the Odessa 1944. There were A-20Gs and Pe-2s only in the VVS regiments and A-20s and IL-4s in the Black Sea Fleet Air Force.

 

Ok, we'll take the A-20G and IL-4 for now. 

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, BlackSix said:

Can't answer about Leningrad 1944 now but we don't need Tu-2 for the Odessa 1944. There were A-20Gs and Pe-2s only in the VVS regiments and A-20s and IL-4s in the Black Sea Fleet Air Force.

 

Ah! That is very interesting actually!

 

At one point I tried to make sense of what aircraft would have been in the existing modules (but aren't represented). I found it very hard to make sense of VVS deployments. This is probably due to insufficiency of English language sources. It might also be that, prior to 1943, the VVS was flying whatever surviving aircraft it had available - so the appearance of a handful of SB-2 or Su-2 or R-10 might be expected (although they might be concentrated in NBAD units). I wouldn't be surprised if diversity of airframes decreased dramatically from 1943 onwards though. That said - I do recall a couple of reports of R-10 on the Leningrad front as late as 1944.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

18 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

I suspect the crew position (4) is the 'Co-pilot/Navigator/Gunner'... and I'm not sure which of the crew had the radio (possibly one of the rear gunners)?

According to the text (thank you, Google Lens), 4 is the navigator's seat and 10 and 12 are both gunner positions. It doesn't mention any co-pilot, and indeed it looks as if it has only one set of controls. Although I can imagine that if the pilot is incapacitated, the navigator takes over controls. If it has a comparable setup to the Pe-2 (which it looks remarkably similar to), the gunner at 10 likely has the radio.

 

Either way the description in the Dev Blog seems to be wrong @LukeFF. I suspect the text should instead read: "The crew consisted of 4 persons: pilot, navigator-gunner behind the pilot, gunner-radio operator, gunner."

[Juri_JS]

7 hours ago, BlackSix said:

Can't answer about Leningrad 1944 now but we don't need Tu-2 for the Odessa 1944. There were A-20Gs and Pe-2s only in the VVS regiments and A-20s and IL-4s in the Black Sea Fleet Air Force.

There were Tu-2s in the 13th Air Army in the summer of 1944, but Pe-2s were more numerous. Apparently there were no encounters between Axis fighters and Tu-2s in the Karelia area, so the plane is only of secondary importance for the map.

[Jackfraser24]

On 11/10/2024 at 4:27 AM, Juri_JS said:

There were Tu-2s in the 13th Air Army in the summer of 1944, but Pe-2s were more numerous. Apparently there were no encounters between Axis fighters and Tu-2s in the Karelia area, so the plane is only of secondary importance for the map.

The more you know!

[352ndOscar]

Three Chinese bomber divisions, the 8^th, 10^th, and 20^th, were equipped with Tu-2Ss, and the 8^th and 10^th Bomber Divisions were stationed in Manchuria to support Chinese forces in Korea.  Their only major combat actions were the two raids on the island of Taehwa-Do in November 1951.  Four Tu-2s were shot down during the disastrous second raid on 30 November 1951.  As the communist air forces were unable to provide effective escorts the two Chinese Tu-2 bomber divisions were withdrawn from Manchuria in March 1952.

[76IAP-Black]

For me, im hyped for the Korean theater, but i still miss some visual evolution in the short vids and pics, compared to the current Il2 GB Series.
Are the changes so small? Or is GB so good?

Hope to see significant differences in the future updates

[migmadmarine]

1 hour ago, 76IAP-Black said:

For me, im hyped for the Korean theater, but i still miss some visual evolution in the short vids and pics, compared to the current Il2 GB Series.
Are the changes so small? Or is GB so good?

Hope to see significant differences in the future updates

The map and terrain shown so far is largely placeholders. The graphics changes so far visible are aircraft rendering and atmospheric scattering related. 

[76IAP-Black]

I hope so, lets see what they are planing and what will be in the release version. 
Im not expecting something like FS2024, but a terrain more than generic areas, roads and cities. 

Crossing my fingers 

[Aapje]

2 hours ago, 76IAP-Black said:

For me, im hyped for the Korean theater, but i still miss some visual evolution in the short vids and pics, compared to the current Il2 GB Series.
Are the changes so small? Or is GB so good?

 

A lot of improvements enable better maps and you'll only see that come together once they show the actual map. The new map should be a lot more diverse in how it looks and plays.

 

Also, YouTube encoding destroys a lot of nuance, so the game will probably look nicer in reality.

[R33GZ]

On 11/9/2024 at 9:52 AM, Avimimus said:

 

The quality of the canopy is really impressive. One can really see how the new tech, combined with research and excellent artistry is really setting a new standard!

I'm only looking at it on phone screen, so maybe I'm missing something... but it looks a lot like BoX to me

[Avimimus]

5 hours ago, R33GZ said:

I'm only looking at it on phone screen, so maybe I'm missing something... but it looks a lot like BoX to me

 

Load up the image on a 4k monitor (or download it)... then zoom in. Just looking at it on a phone won't let you see this level of detail (too low resolution).

[Lofte]

On 11/9/2024 at 9:11 AM, Juri_JS said:

I wonder what types of missions were flown by Tu-2s during the Korea war. I can only find information on the Taehwa-do island raids.

 

It looks as if those raids on the island were the only combat sorties for the Tu-2. There is another mention in American sources of one "lost" Tu-2 that shot down an F-86 on January 30, 1953, and that's it.

 

FURY FROM THE NORTH. The North Korean Airforce in the Korean War 1950-1953

 

"The KPAF bomber force – or an independent reconnaissance or training unit – retained 15 propeller-driven Tu-2s as
reconnaissance aircraft or for twin-engine transition and basic bomber procedures training (prior to transitioning to the jetpowered
Il-28), or both. On 30 January 1953 one of these aircraft was detected by ‘Dutchboy’, apparently headed towards Ch’o-do
island on a reconnaissance mission, or to test USAF reactions and defences. The TADC scrambled the Sabres sitting alert at Kimpo
and began vectoring two four-ships of F-86s already airborne towards the radar contact.389

First Lt Raymond A. Kinsey (335th FIS/4th FIW) was the first pursuer to spot the ‘errant… bomber’ – flying at lower altitude
over the sea off the coast near Chinnamp’o – and diving down he made three firing passes before the bomber caught fire, ‘came
apart, rolled over and dove into the Yellow Sea’. If this ill-fated mission was designed to test USAF defences, it certainly proved
discouraging to the KPAF’s hopes of mounting any bomber attacks during daylight.390

 

389 Futrell, p.610.
390 Ibid.; ‘Kinsey Shoots Down Communist TU-2 Bomber’, Lubbock
Avalanche-Journal, February 8, 1953, p.57 & Seidov, p.474."
 

+

https://journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/jcs/article/view/368/582

"However, the greatest restriction on Communist war efforts in the Korean War came from both Moscow's and Beijing's political considerations. One important element in China's air war strategy in 1951 was the use of bomber aircraft to attack American targets in Korea directly. At the time the CPV's air force was established in spring 1951, Beijing authorities committed two bomber divisions to Korea. Their major targets were US warships off the North Korean coast and airfields at Seoul. Chinese leaders seemed aware that Washington had restricted bombing targets north of the Yalu River in order to limit the war. In a reciprocal fashion, Beijing confined Chinese air operations to defense and refused to allow attacks on the US safe haven south of the 38th parallel. Then, all bomber units were released gradually from combat duties in Korea after March 1952.⁵¹

 

51. According to one Chinese source, on 8 February 1952, three Tu-2 bombers were assigned to strike Kimpo airfield. Their mission was called off a few minutes before takeoff by Zhou Enlai from Beijing. Li Chuangeng, Feijiangjun Liu Benshan [Biography of General Liu Benshan] (Beijing: Central Historical Material Press, 1995), pp. 344-45. See also, Xu Yan, Diyici jiaoliang, p. 206.""

[Lofte]

Quite an interesting article about the bombing of Taehwa-do (in Chinese) - https://m.thepaper.cn/baijiahao_9620572

 

There were 3 raids in total.

1) 1951-11-06 - 9 Tu-2s of the 22nd Regiment, 8th Division attacked from 2000 m (no losses, described as completely successful)

2) 1951-11-29 - 10 Tu-2s of the 28th Regiment, 10th Division made a night attack on ships and Sohwa-do(?) Island (no hits, unexperienced crews)

3) 1951-11-30 - 9 Tu-2s of the 28th Regiment, 8th Division attempted to attack Taehwa-do from 1500 m during the day and were attacked by 30 F-86s.

 

I tried to estimate Chinese losses on 51.11.30 (thanks to Google Translate).

So, it looks like China lost 4 Tu-2s + 4 more were damaged. At least 2 planes returned - the Tu-2 of Captain Gao Yueming (leader) and the Tu-2 with gunner Liu Shaoji (claimed to have shot down the F-86 with a machine gun)

 

Liu Shaoji and damaged Tu-2 (left), Captain Gao Yueming with crew before flight (right)

 

I'm not sure, but I think the shot down crews (or dead airmen) are circled.

 

We also have information that some of the Tu-2s flew at night and used flares. Maybe that's why there is no information or victory claims from the US pilots about them...

https://kknews.cc/military/k9ky8bq.html
https://www.12371.cn/2021/11/30/ARTI1638242328043276.shtml
https://www.sohu.com/a/523022211_121118975

[actionhank1786]

On 11/8/2024 at 4:19 PM, BlitzPig_EL said:

I bagged a 262 while in a Brewster in the original IL2.  The 262 pilot was not a happy camper.

I have to imagine I would have wanted to chuck my joystick out of my window. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

He made a tragic mistake, he came down low and flew to my strengths.  I turned inside of him and put a burst in one of his engines and that was that.

 

Very gratifying.

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

He made a tragic mistake, he came down low and flew to my strengths.  I turned inside of him and put a burst in one of his engines and that was that.

 

Very gratifying.

 

I expect we'll see quite a bit of this once Korea is released! 😄

[BlitzPig_EL]

I'm looking forward to it actually.  😁