Also, the AI/damage and the MAPS

[Ace_Pilto]

Please fix it.

The AI in both scenarios is terrible. You have taught the AI to fly the sim planes but not how to fight. All they can do is a max rate defensive turn. Just release a simplified AI that operates the relevant aircraft competently, they don;t need to have such a high CPU overhead if they conform to a basic, scripted system. Multiple times I have been attacking a fighter in a max rate turn and it just uses magical rocket power to climb to absurd parameters. I'm OK with AI being tough but the UFO AI is very tiresome.

 

The damage model seems ok in WW2 planes. Cannons and MG are well simulated. But... Flying Circus damage is awful. I can close into 25 meters and nail the enemy in the back of the head but, if I try anything else it's like attacking  a Missouri Class battleship with a block of cheese. Some fluid leaks out, nothing ever happens. Give the bullets some power and remove the force shielding from rear gunners! I can kill a single seater in three rounds with careful placement into the back of the pilots' head. But that gunner will eat my entire payload of ammunition and it just makes sparks fly.

 

Love the game, it has nice feel but it's so sterile. Cut down your CPU overheads and give the AI the ability to fight! They can hardly fly the planes as it is right now. Nobody needs a single player bolt and rivet counter, leave that to the PvP crowd who will whine here when the lose too often. The structure in your SP game is well developed and appreciated, it has everything going for it in terms of the database but the game itself is a cruel mockery of buyers expectations.

 

 

The map. Put the names of rivers/landmarks and such so we can navigate. More detail, more names please!

[Roland_HUNter]

On 9/30/2024 at 12:12 PM, Ace_Pilto said:

The damage model seems ok in WW2 planes

When a P38 flying after 2-3 30mm.....and Hurricane survive 7 of them....No its not OK.

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Roland_HUNter said:

When a P38 flying after 2-3 30mm.....and Hurricane survive 7 of them....No its not OK.

 

Then post your track files, please.

[Roland_HUNter]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

Then post your track files, please.

Did many times in the past. Nothing changed.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

On 9/30/2024 at 12:12 PM, Ace_Pilto said:

Multiple times I have been attacking a fighter in a max rate turn and it just uses magical rocket power to climb to absurd parameters

What? The AI can't and never do that. I would not believe, need to see that UFO maneuver to believe 👽

[Avimimus]

15 hours ago, Roland_HUNter said:

When a P38 flying after 2-3 30mm.....and Hurricane survive 7 of them....No its not OK.

 

I just took out a Hurricane with 2 30mm hits (one of which was decisive)...

Another Hurricane survived 3-4 30mm hits (hits to the wing and tail)... crippling it (it was down to three control surfaces), on the next pass I took it out with a single 30mm hit.

 

50 minutes ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

What? The AI can't and never do that. I would not believe, need to see that UFO maneuver to believe 👽

 

I'd agree with this. I could see someone believing AI can do that if their energy management was much worse than the AI's energy management though.

[Roland_HUNter]

12 hours ago, Avimimus said:

I just took out a Hurricane with 2 30mm hits (one of which was decisive)...

You took the wing from the root?

12 hours ago, Avimimus said:

Hurricane survived 3-4 30mm hits

Wow....this should be 1...not 3-4. Again: Not realistic.

Or against 20mm:
You think is this realistic?

[Roland_HUNter]

12 hours ago, Avimimus said:

on the next pass I took it out with a single 30mm hit.

I guess PK or rudder lost.

[Avimimus]

2 hours ago, Roland_HUNter said:

I guess PK or rudder lost.

 

Yes. I'm used to flying aircraft that require scoring hits on the pilot, engine, or radiator - so I tend to aim for mainly pilot or rudder hits.

 

 

2 hours ago, Roland_HUNter said:

 

Can you submit a track file? I can see a Hurricane maybe taking two hits to the wing - but that looks like something which definitely should be submitted!

[Panzerlang]

I don't know if IL2 models ricochets vs penetrations but a 30mm exploding against a surface vs exploding after penetrating a surface is going to result in significantly different outcomes. So maybe that's what's going on here.

[the_emperor]

9 hours ago, Panzerlang said:

I don't know if IL2 models ricochets vs penetrations but a 30mm exploding against a surface vs exploding after penetrating a surface is going to result in significantly different outcomes. So maybe that's what's going on here.

 

devs confirmed that all HE- Shells are modelled with contact fuzes without delay...

So an integral part of the german 20/30mm shells is missing...apart from the wrong conversion of TNT equivalent for all 20/30mm HE-Shells across all nations.

[Roland_HUNter]

17 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

Yes. I'm used to flying aircraft that require scoring hits on the pilot, engine, or radiator - so I tend to aim for mainly pilot or rudder hits.

 

 

 

Can you submit a track file? I can see a Hurricane maybe taking two hits to the wing - but that looks like something which definitely should be submitted!

Around 15-20 20mm hit on the wing. About 400 g of tnt....

Tracks.rar

[Panzerlang]

13 hours ago, the_emperor said:

 

devs confirmed that all HE- Shells are modelled with contact fuzes without delay...

So an integral part of the german 20/30mm shells is missing...apart from the wrong conversion of TNT equivalent for all 20/30mm HE-Shells across all nations.

Well I guess that's the cause of the issue right there, explosive cannon rounds are doing a fraction of the damage they'd do if they were going off inside the airframe.

[Stonehouse]

15 hours ago, the_emperor said:

wrong conversion of TNT equivalent for all 20/30mm HE-Shells

@the_emperor can you give me a link to the post talking about this please? I'd be interested in reading it. Thanks

[the_emperor]

7 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

can you give me a link to the post talking about this please? I'd be interested in reading it. Thanks

Sure, here you go:

 

 

[Avimimus]

17 hours ago, Roland_HUNter said:

Around 15-20 20mm hit on the wing. About 400 g of tnt....

Tracks.rar 4.51 MB · 0 downloads

 

That is a pretty nice track. Does it diverge much from other aircraft in your tests?

 

I've tried replicating the complaint about 30mm hits to the Hurricane (using the most recent build):

 

Results:

 

Hits to other areas:

3x 1-2 tail hits destroyed tail control surfaces
2x 1 hit to fuselauge severed elevator control cables
2x 2 hits to the fuselauge severed elevator control cables (also knocked pilot unconscious in one case)

 

Wing hits:

1 hit to wing (wing suffered structural failure)
2 hits to the wing (went down out of control - aileron failure)
2 hits to inner wing (ailerons disabled, went down out of control)
1 hit to wing (wing survived, radiator destroyed by shrapnel, aircraft kept flying)
1 hit to inner wing, injured pilot, mg-131 ignites fuel

 

Summary:

So, the most common cause was elevator cables being destroyed, followed by tail surfaces being destroyed, followed by damage sustained by wing hits. This was primarily because the Bf-109 was much more likely to score hits against the fuselauge (in most cases no hits were scored on the wing).

 

There was a 30% chance of an aircraft surviving one hit to the wing, a 30% of aileron failure after 2 hits, and a 15% chance of structural failure after one hit.

 

In about half of cases one 30mm hit destroyed the Hurricane, in the other half of cases two 30mm hits destroyed the airplane.

[Roland_HUNter]

6 hours ago, Avimimus said:

That is a pretty nice track. Does it diverge much from other aircraft in your tests?

Depends.
But this plane can survive the most hits. Better than P47.

30mm tests:

https://easyupload.io/zsbujv

 

Bigger than 10mb.

 

I think that 20mm test says it all. And if the 30mm is so ineffective, the 20mm is even more so.

[Ace_Pilto]

On 10/2/2024 at 2:00 AM, Roland_HUNter said:

When a P38 flying after 2-3 30mm.....and Hurricane survive 7 of them....No its not OK.

Well, how does the 30mm belting work, was it all He or some AP, some HE. Also, where did you hit the target. You can't expect a plane to fall out of the sky because you hit it. The 30mm is a formidable weapon but it's not a guaranteed kill in any case.

 

What I'm talking about is 15/30 .303 rounds hitting the critical areas of an aircraft at close range and no effect being seen, not the properties of the round. I shoot at an aircraft in FC and it leaks some fluid, performs unusual anti gravity maneuvers like transitioning from a full rate turn into a space shuttle climb and flys home after I repeat the treatment several times. I'm not bragging but I am a good shot, I can put my rounds into the cockpit if I want to, or the engine or the fuel tanks and nothing ever happens unless I kill the pilot. 

 

With the WW2 planes even, if you hit them with one MG round they start leaking fluid, you get some nonsense "first engine damaged" message but it's all nonsense. You can hit the tailwheel and the same thing happens. The damage model is some bizarre system made to make lame ducks a more visible target.

Edited October 5, 2024 by Ace_Pilto
addendum

[Roland_HUNter]

3 hours ago, Ace_Pilto said:

Well, how does the 30mm belting work, was it all He or some AP, some HE. Also, where did you hit the target. You can't expect a plane to fall out of the sky because you hit it. The 30mm is a formidable weapon but it's not a guaranteed kill in any case.

All HE in IL2.

About "not guaranteed kill" check the picture above.

[Ace_Pilto]

42 minutes ago, Roland_HUNter said:

All HE in IL2.

About "not guaranteed kill" check the picture above.

Looks like an aircraft that landed and was cannibalised to me, not one that was destroyed by 30mm API.

[Roland_HUNter]

1 hour ago, Ace_Pilto said:

Looks like an aircraft that landed and was cannibalised to me, not one that was destroyed by 30mm API.

 

[Roland_HUNter]

On 10/4/2024 at 12:14 PM, Avimimus said:

 

That is a pretty nice track. Does it diverge much from other aircraft in your tests?

 

I've tried replicating the complaint about 30mm hits to the Hurricane (using the most recent build):

 

Results:

 

Hits to other areas:

3x 1-2 tail hits destroyed tail control surfaces
2x 1 hit to fuselauge severed elevator control cables
2x 2 hits to the fuselauge severed elevator control cables (also knocked pilot unconscious in one case)

 

Wing hits:

1 hit to wing (wing suffered structural failure)
2 hits to the wing (went down out of control - aileron failure)
2 hits to inner wing (ailerons disabled, went down out of control)
1 hit to wing (wing survived, radiator destroyed by shrapnel, aircraft kept flying)
1 hit to inner wing, injured pilot, mg-131 ignites fuel

 

Summary:

So, the most common cause was elevator cables being destroyed, followed by tail surfaces being destroyed, followed by damage sustained by wing hits. This was primarily because the Bf-109 was much more likely to score hits against the fuselauge (in most cases no hits were scored on the wing).

 

There was a 30% chance of an aircraft surviving one hit to the wing, a 30% of aileron failure after 2 hits, and a 15% chance of structural failure after one hit.

 

In about half of cases one 30mm hit destroyed the Hurricane, in the other half of cases two 30mm hits destroyed the airplane.

So, what do u think?

[Avimimus]

On 10/7/2024 at 4:49 PM, Roland_HUNter said:

So, what do u think?

 

You want my personal opinion? Okay, here it goes:

 

The Hurricane is downed by 1-2 30mm hits. The B-26 is reliably downed by 2-3 30mm hits. This is very close to what historical reports say. At most these aircraft are requiring one extra bullet to be shot down.

 

In terms of flaws within the damage model - the situation with the rifle calibre rounds (0.303, 7.62, 7.92) effectively being unable to deal critical hits would seem to be a higher priority to improve.

[Roland_HUNter]

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

 

You want my personal opinion? Okay, here it goes:

 

The Hurricane is downed by 1-2 30mm hits. The B-26 is reliably downed by 2-3 30mm hits. This is very close to what historical reports say. At most these aircraft are requiring one extra bullet to be shot down.

 

In terms of flaws within the damage model - the situation with the rifle calibre rounds (0.303, 7.62, 7.92) effectively being unable to deal critical hits would seem to be a higher priority to improve.

Did you see the 10mb + track file?
https://easyupload.io/z5r7j1

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

12 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

You want my personal opinion? Okay, here it goes:

 

The Hurricane is downed by 1-2 30mm hits. The B-26 is reliably downed by 2-3 30mm hits. This is very close to what historical reports say. At most these aircraft are requiring one extra bullet to be shot down.

 

In terms of flaws within the damage model - the situation with the rifle calibre rounds (0.303, 7.62, 7.92) effectively being unable to deal critical hits would seem to be a higher priority to improve.

This and adding incendiary element to .50 also would be good.

[Roland_HUNter]

On 10/8/2024 at 8:29 PM, Avimimus said:

The Hurricane is downed by 1-2 30mm hits. The B-26 is reliably downed by 2-3 30mm hits. This is very close to what historical reports say. At most these aircraft are requiring one extra bullet to be shot down.

I like how you dodge watching track videos that point out that the damage model is inadequate.

[kraut1]

On 10/8/2024 at 9:50 PM, Roland_HUNter said:

Did you see the 10mb + track file?
https://easyupload.io/z5r7j1

I have seen your track.

And I have just flown about 20 similar attacks.

Yes, I agree the MK108 could be a bit stronger or maybe the damage model is not perfect.

You have opened fire on medium? distance and shot very short bursts, maybe to see the single hits better. So  you hit with the MK108 different parts of the B26 that are a bit far away from each other and maybe because of that not so much effective.

But from my experience of the test attacks: if I try to use the MK108 as a close distance weapon a short burst of less than 0.5 seconds with maybe 3 hits more close together is sufficient to destroy the bomber with a good probabillity with one short attack.

I think for testing the effectiveness of the MK108 it could be helpful to have a look into the mission reports too.

[Avimimus]

15 hours ago, Roland_HUNter said:

I like how you dodge watching track videos that point out that the damage model is inadequate.

 

I watched both of your tracks more than once. I am busy. It takes time to come back and reply. Furthermore, with what little time I have I chose to attempt to replicate your results before replying.

 

I've engaged in good faith. You asked me my personally opinion and I gave it (Including that the difficulties around 7.62, 7.92 and 0.303 rounds having trouble producing critical hits has a larger impact on realism - and should be a higher priority). Anyway, I logged on here specifically to show my results and discuss this further - but I'm starting to suspect that anything I say will be dismissed by you. So, what is the point?

 

I moved on to testing bombers:

 

Mosquito:
1 hit (inner wing, shot down in flames)
1 hit (upper fuselage, well behind pilot, shot down out of control)
2 hits (one to each wing, shot down out of control)
2-3 hits (near engine forward pass, two hits from rear to fuselage).

 

B-25:
2 hits (rear nacelle, opposite fuel tank, down in flames)
2 hits (wing tip, wing root, down out of control)

2-3 hits (likely out of control due to hit to tail, third hit ignited).

3-4 hits (down out of control)

4 hits (initial hits to wing tip, then tail failure, down out of control)
4? hits (nacelle, rear fuselage, bomber survived)
6 hits (spread across nacelles, tail cone, destroyed on returning to base).

Note: I fired one round at a time... if I was firing in bursts so the rounds landed in the same area these aircraft would be less likely to last so long. In some cases it is clear that a single Mk-108 round shot down the bomber. In other places the rounds landed to little observable effect.
 

Actual 30mm damage to a Mosquito (burst was from an Me-262 so we can be certain it is only Mk-108 damage):

[Roland_HUNter]

8 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

I watched both of your tracks more than once. I am busy. It takes time to come back and reply. Furthermore, with what little time I have I chose to attempt to replicate your results before replying.

 

I've engaged in good faith. You asked me my personally opinion and I gave it (Including that the difficulties around 7.62, 7.92 and 0.303 rounds having trouble producing critical hits has a larger impact on realism - and should be a higher priority). Anyway, I logged on here specifically to show my results and discuss this further - but I'm starting to suspect that anything I say will be dismissed by you. So, what is the point?

 

I moved on to testing bombers:

 

Mosquito:
1 hit (inner wing, shot down in flames)
1 hit (upper fuselage, well behind pilot, shot down out of control)
2 hits (one to each wing, shot down out of control)
2-3 hits (near engine forward pass, two hits from rear to fuselage).

 

B-25:
2 hits (rear nacelle, opposite fuel tank, down in flames)
2 hits (wing tip, wing root, down out of control)

2-3 hits (likely out of control due to hit to tail, third hit ignited).

3-4 hits (down out of control)

4 hits (initial hits to wing tip, then tail failure, down out of control)
4? hits (nacelle, rear fuselage, bomber survived)
6 hits (spread across nacelles, tail cone, destroyed on returning to base).

Note: I fired one round at a time... if I was firing in bursts so the rounds landed in the same area these aircraft would be less likely to last so long. In some cases it is clear that a single Mk-108 round shot down the bomber. In other places the rounds landed to little observable effect.
 

Actual 30mm damage to a Mosquito (burst was from an Me-262 so we can be certain it is only Mk-108 damage):

I understand and thank you.

That said, I disagree with your opinion, because based on the UK IRL test presented above, it is not lifelike.

As for switching from hurricane to bomber or burst firing, again, not a solution, an answer to my premise.

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, Roland_HUNter said:

I understand and thank you.

That said, I disagree with your opinion, because based on the UK IRL test presented above, it is not lifelike.

As for switching from hurricane to bomber or burst firing, again, not a solution, an answer to my premise.

 

My overall think at this point is that the opinion the issue to the damage model in this case may indeed be the fact that the 30mm rounds are detonating upon first contact, without penetrating first. This means that an impact on a flap will destroy the flap but be unlikely to reach the fuel tanks or structural elements of the wing itself.

 

Furthermore, in some cases, the fact that the aircraft isn't broken into more parts might be causing issues (e.g. the Hurricane's inner wing might end up being too strong because it is modelled as one piece).

 

Note: It seems the fragmentation model can mean that a shot can take out systems or crew a couple of metres away from the impact point but this is unpredictable. Interestingly, the Russian 37mm seems to be less powerful than the 30mm or 40/50mm cannons.

[Roland_HUNter]

25 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

Russian 37mm seems to be less powerful

It had less filler, no?

[Avimimus]

2 minutes ago, Roland_HUNter said:

It had less filler, no?

 

Yes, it is probably accurate. But definitely a sign of a lack of bias.

[Ace_Pilto]

Mk-108 is not a magical get a kill free card. It's hard to aim, made for destroying bombers and it does not exist to feed your dopamine addiction. I can score 50 kills with .303 by aiming it. You ought to think about the same thing and focus on your target properly if you want results from the Rheinmetalborsig monster. Stop being so weak, learn how to aim.

[Roland_HUNter]

11 hours ago, Ace_Pilto said:

Stop being so weak, learn how to aim.

Nice ad hominem. Best argument 10/10

[LuftManu]

Guys, keep it civil.

 

Please.

 

Kind regards,

[the_emperor]

On 10/10/2024 at 8:12 PM, Avimimus said:

My overall think at this point is that the opinion the issue to the damage model in this case may indeed be the fact that the 30mm rounds are detonating upon first contact, without penetrating first. This means that an impact on a flap will destroy the flap but be unlikely to reach the fuel tanks or structural elements of the wing itself.

 

1. Yes, it has been confirmed by the devs that there is no delay action for the german mineshells.

2. the german and soviet 20mm Shells holds too little filling (currently 20g TNT instead of the 28g TNT...same is true for the soviet 20mm 5.6g TNT instead of 8.6g) )

 

On 10/10/2024 at 8:12 PM, Avimimus said:

Note: It seems the fragmentation model can mean that a shot can take out systems or crew a couple of metres away from the impact point but this is unpredictable. Interestingly, the Russian 37mm seems to be less powerful than the 30mm or 40/50mm cannons.

 

the soviet 37mm held about 43g of A-IX-2 (~66g TNT equivalent)

the german 30mm mineshell held about 85g of HA41 (~130g TNT equivalent)

Edited October 13, 2024 by the_emperor