Questions About the Ta-152 Stall Speed

[MaxPower]

Hey hey!

I have some questions about the Ta 152 stall speed as it appears on the il2 data sheet.  I actually own the plane but I haven't been able to get the time to play it much lately.  I'm hoping someone who is familiar with the plane can give me some info about their experiences.

The 1g stall speed range for the Ta 152 is listed as 170-192 km/h.  I believe this is 170km/h at minimum weight, and 192km/h at MTOW.  This about the same range as published for the Fw 190 D-9.  This should mean that the aircraft's instantaneous turn is about the same as the Dora, but the Ta 152 has a lower top speed.  Does this seem to represent the behaviour in the game in your experience?  Does the data sheet sound wrong?

[marcobona]

18 hours ago, MaxPower said:

Does the data sheet sound wrong?

 

Hi Max, data sheet in the sim manual is a sustained turn rate value, not an instantaneous one. I tested in sim both planes (as you can see in my App), and at SL their sustained turn rate are very similar.

[MaxPower]

Hi Marcobona!

I had a previous version of your app.  Thanks for keeping it updated!  It's very good 

Although, I really am just interested in the 1g power off stall speed of the Ta 152 compared to the D-9.  You can estimate instantaneous turn performance using the stall speed and load factor.  Since people aren't normally playing their combat flight sims by doing power off stall tests, I thought relating it to their experience with 'instantaneous turn' might be better.  Just to clarify, the data sheets say the stall speeds are similar.  I was wondering how people feel about that who are familiar with both aircraft.  Do they seem to pull g's about the same (aside from the wings of the 152 snapping off sometimes)?

edit: Actually, speaking of your app Marcobona, are the sustained turn stats etc in your app obtained experimentally or from supplied data (such as the il2 stats sheets)?
edit: Nevermind!  You already said you tested them

Edited September 1, 2024 by MaxPower

[HazMatt]

I have an interesting observation based on nothing factual.

 

I've flown the 152 a bit since it came out and to me it "feels" lighter at low speeds then the d9. It would make sense to me with the bigger wings that this would be true.

 

Below is an interesting article in which the TA-152 pilot demonstrated its ability to turn with a Tempest. Don't expect to see that in this game

 

In the words of Ofw. Reschke:

"Two enemy fighters were spotted some eight kilometres to the south-west of the field, making low-level passes over Ludwigslust railway yards. Three Ta 152 took off at once, piloted by the Oblt. Aufhammer, the Ofw. Sattler and myself. We were immediately in contact with the enemy fighters, which turned out to be Tempests. Flying in n°3 position, I witnessed the Ofw. Sattler ahead of me dive into the ground seconds before we reached them. It was hardly possible for his crash to have been the result of enemy action, as the Tempest pilots had clearly only just registered our presence. Now began a fight at two against two at the ground-level, which was never to climb above 50 metres. At this altitude neither could afford to make the slightest mistake. And for the first time since flying the Ta 152 I began fully to appreciate exactly what this aircraft could do.

"Pulling ever tighter turns, I got closer and closer to one of the Tempests, never once feeling I was even approaching the limit of the Ta’s capabilities. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside me had failed. My first burst of fire caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage; its pilot immediately engaged its aircraft in a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapons fell silent and refused to fire another shot. However, the Tempest, which had already taken hits continued desperately to twist and turn, and I positioned myself so that I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually, inevitably, it stalled. The Tempest’s left wing dropped and he crashed into the woods immediately below us, about one kilometre of the site from Sattler’s crash. The Tempest pilot, the W/O O.J. Mitchell was buried side by side with the Ofw. Sattler next day in Neustadt-Glewe cemetery with full military honours".

[Jaegermeister]

6 hours ago, HazMatt said:

 

I've flown the 152 a bit since it came out and to me it "feels" lighter at low speeds then the d9. It would make sense to me with the bigger wings that this would be true.

 

Below is an interesting article in which the TA-152 pilot demonstrated its ability to turn with a Tempest. Don't expect to see that in this game

.

It’s interesting that you say that in those words. As soon as the next update rolls out, you will be able to fly that exact mission, albeit with a few minor adjustments for map limitations. 😉

 

This little tidbit of design trivia also helps explain better low speed handling in the Ta152 as long as you don’t snap the wings off…

 

From Wikipedia;

The wing itself was designed with 3° of washout, from the root to the flap-aileron junction, to prevent the ailerons from stalling before the centre section of the wing.

[AndyJWest]

30 minutes ago, Jaegermeister said:

It’s interesting that you say that in those words. As soon as the next update rolls out, you will be able to fly that exact mission, albeit with a few minor adjustments for map limitations. 😉

 

This little tidbit of design trivia also helps explain better low speed handling in the Ta152 as long as you don’t snap the wings off…

 

From Wikipedia;

The wing itself was designed with 3° of washout, from the root to the flap-aileron junction, to prevent the ailerons from stalling before the centre section of the wing.

 

The majority of WW2-era fighters had washout.

[MaxPower]

@HazMatt
Thanks for sharing your experience!  It coincides with what others have said on the forum about the aircraft- that they feel that the wings help them in sustained turns.
I recognize the quote.  I suppose I would interpret the quote about the Ta's increasing advantage as what happens when you reverse your turn without an overshoot, but it does sound like the Ta is performing on parity with the Tempests.
 

2 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

It’s interesting that you say that in those words. As soon as the next update rolls out, you will be able to fly that exact mission, albeit with a few minor adjustments for map limitations. 😉

That sounds amazing!  I can't wait.  I've played your P-38 scenario and it's really good (I hope I have the right person).  I played it religiously on my Christmas break for a few years  

I took a look at Marcobona's stats app and it kind of shows something similar to what the stall speed data hints at- that the D-9 and Ta-152 should handle fairly similar at similar fuel percentages, just that the Ta-152 should be consistently about 30 km/h slower under 7km.

Edited September 5, 2024 by MaxPower

[Jaegermeister]

23 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

 

The majority of WW2-era fighters had washout.

True, in varying degrees. The earlier FWs had less wing washout with a better roll rate and a snappier stall. If I recall the 109s had none, but spoilers to compensate. Everything is a compromise and when you increase one asset, you usually reduce another.
 

All I was saying is that for being designed as a high altitude fighter, it’s interesting that low speed handling was specifically addressed as a design priority, even though it was probably to prevent excessive landing accidents.

 

Edited September 6, 2024 by Jaegermeister

[AndyJWest]

53 minutes ago, Jaegermeister said:

True, in varying degrees. The earlier FWs had less wing washout with a better roll rate and a snappier stall. If I recall the 109s had none, but spoilers to compensate. Everything is a compromise and when you increase one asset, you usually reduce another.
 

All I was saying is that for being designed as a high altitude fighter, it’s interesting that low speed handling was specifically addressed as a design priority, even though it was probably to prevent excessive landing accidents.

 

 

The good landing characteristics may at least be partly a side effect of designing it as a high-altitude fighter. Stall characteristics mostly correlate with equivalent airspeed rather then TAS (until compressibility becomes a factor), and at max altitude, the Ta-152 is going to be cruising relatively close to the stall. Design it to turn safely at 15,000m, and it should handle landing well too.

[MaxPower]

Ah so you're saying that even though the stall speeds are within 5km/h of each other, the Ta-152 is more benign.  So therefore, the wing design has other high altitude benefits that aren't related to stall speed.

I think the Ta should be flying at around 300kmh EAS at 14km with GM-1.  Without it, I think its top speed and stall speed would be overlapping in pretty short order.  I don't think it can achieve 14km on Start und Notleistung- but I haven't tested in the sim.  Charts for the Jumo 213E1 don't show it using Sonder Notleistung (which I think is with MW50?) over 5km or so.

[Jaegermeister]

9 hours ago, MaxPower said:

Ah so you're saying that even though the stall speeds are within 5km/h of each other, the Ta-152 is more benign.  So therefore, the wing design has other high altitude benefits that aren't related to stall speed.

 

The way i understand it, the wing design is supposed to maintain aileron control at a lower speed closer to the stall to counter wing drop in a low speed turn, or as mentioned above, a high speed high altitude turn at just above a stall due to less lift at altitude

[Aurora_Stealth]

On 9/4/2024 at 9:04 PM, HazMatt said:

I have an interesting observation based on nothing factual.

 

I've flown the 152 a bit since it came out and to me it "feels" lighter at low speeds then the d9. It would make sense to me with the bigger wings that this would be true.

 

Below is an interesting article in which the TA-152 pilot demonstrated its ability to turn with a Tempest. Don't expect to see that in this game

 

In the words of Ofw. Reschke:

"Two enemy fighters were spotted some eight kilometres to the south-west of the field, making low-level passes over Ludwigslust railway yards. Three Ta 152 took off at once, piloted by the Oblt. Aufhammer, the Ofw. Sattler and myself. We were immediately in contact with the enemy fighters, which turned out to be Tempests. Flying in n°3 position, I witnessed the Ofw. Sattler ahead of me dive into the ground seconds before we reached them. It was hardly possible for his crash to have been the result of enemy action, as the Tempest pilots had clearly only just registered our presence. Now began a fight at two against two at the ground-level, which was never to climb above 50 metres. At this altitude neither could afford to make the slightest mistake. And for the first time since flying the Ta 152 I began fully to appreciate exactly what this aircraft could do.

"Pulling ever tighter turns, I got closer and closer to one of the Tempests, never once feeling I was even approaching the limit of the Ta’s capabilities. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside me had failed. My first burst of fire caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage; its pilot immediately engaged its aircraft in a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapons fell silent and refused to fire another shot. However, the Tempest, which had already taken hits continued desperately to twist and turn, and I positioned myself so that I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually, inevitably, it stalled. The Tempest’s left wing dropped and he crashed into the woods immediately below us, about one kilometre of the site from Sattler’s crash. The Tempest pilot, the W/O O.J. Mitchell was buried side by side with the Ofw. Sattler next day in Neustadt-Glewe cemetery with full military honours".

 

Well... it'll be interesting to re-compare this article with what's seen ingame once we receive the update to the Tempest V flight model (hopefully later this month).

[MaxPower]

I managed to get a little time to test some level flight stalls.  I agree with what you guys are saying.  The Ta-152 does feel lighter at low speeds.  It's less of a handful as its approaching its stall speed and feels like it's more happy to stay in the air.  The red airspeed text in the Fw-190 D-9 started at around 200 km/h.  It started around 195 in the Ta-152.  The D-9 broke away earlier than expected- around as high as 180 or 185.  The Ta-152 broke away slightly later than expected.  Between 160 and 170 IIRC.  Both aircraft were at 50 percent fuel.  It was the Rhineland Spring 1945 map.  I should say that I am not well suited to flight testing but the aircraft did seem at least to be coordinated.

I saw a document online that was claimed to be from an official source, but it was just a copy pasta on ww2aircraft.net.  It seemed to say that the Germans consider the Ta-152 to have a higher CLmax than the other Fw fighters (1.58 and 1.7 respectively).  Around 7.6 percent or so.  The numbers given in the data seem to show the Ta-152 with a 10 percent lower CLmax than the D-9 (1.4 vs. 1.27).  If I give the Ta-152 the D-9's CLmax plus 7.6 percent, we calculate a stall speed that's about 10km/h lower than the D-9.  I wonder if the il2 stats sheet is wrong after all or if it's just too complicated for my feeble brain to comprehend.

[354thFG_Panda_]

To clear up any confusion about this, I was also curious about the spec sheet stall speeds during beta testing so I tested it in game and found the stall speeds lower. The spec sheet seems to say CLmax is lower as @MaxPower has calculated.

 

The engineers confirmed that the CLmax was 1.45 which is higher than the 190s due to its high aspect ratio wings. So the stall speeds are lower than the 190D at similar fuel in game and you feel it has better instantaneous turn

[MaxPower]

I think the 1.45 CLmax confirmed by the IL2 engineers would put the corrected data sheet stall speed range for the Ta-152 at from 159 km/h to 178 km/h (minimum weight to maximum take-off weight).

Thanks for the behind the scenes info @Red_Panda!  This is starting to make a lot more sense.

Regarding the update to the Tempest flight model.  At sea level, if the new Tempest CLmax is 1.2 (which was one of the suggestions, not anything official), then I think the Ta-152 with MW-50 should behave similarly to the Tempest with +11 lbs boost at lower speeds, but the Tempest should be much faster.  The D-9 with MW-50 should behave similarly to the Tempest with +9 lbs boost.  They should all have stall speeds similar to each other, I reckon.  It'll be interesting to see, especially with the new scenario that @Jaegermeister mentioned.

[MaxPower]

@HazMatt  I learned that Reschke was flying a Ta-152 H-0.  It's lighter than the H-1 because it doesn't have any of the boost systems installed.  Without the boost systems, the aircraft was half a ton lighter but maybe had less potential horsepower.  I'm not actually sure about the WEP horsepower of the Jumo 213 E without MW50.

The H-0 has a 6 percent lower fifty percent fuel weight.  So, it'll have a lower wing loading, and a lower stall speed.  Not sure about the power to weight ratio because I don't know how much power it had.  Since the H-1 can't outrun a Tempest at low altitude even if it's only using 7 lbs boost, any lack in top speed isn't all that much of a loss.  If the Jumo is still able to generate around 2000 horsepower... or... ahem... Pferdestärke... without MW50 then the H-0 would enjoy a step up in low altitude climb over the H-1.  I think the H-0 would be somewhat better at dogfighting at low altitude somewhat.

[HazMatt]

That's interesting. I was not aware of the weight differences between the H=0 and H-1.

 

I suspect that by that stage of the war that the German planes did not have heavy fuel loads as there wasn't a lot of fuel available and they were not flying long range missions. I suspect that that might have something to do with the weight too.

[MaxPower]

On 10/20/2024 at 1:29 PM, HazMatt said:

That's interesting. I was not aware of the weight differences between the H=0 and H-1.

 

I suspect that by that stage of the war that the German planes did not have heavy fuel loads as there wasn't a lot of fuel available and they were not flying long range missions. I suspect that that might have something to do with the weight too.

Yeah the H-0 had about half the fuel capacity.  It didn't have the extra fuel tank in the wings.  It also lacked a pressurized cockpit.

I found some info with annotated references on the old War Thunder Forum about the amount of power the Jumo 213E was producing.
1750 PS @ 1.58 ata Start und Notleistung
1900 PS @ 1.72 ata Erhöhte Notleistung with "Ladedrucksteigerungs-Rüstsatz" field modification by TAM

If the H-0 has the Rustsatz it should behave fairly similar to the H-1 at their respective max power settings.  I think the power settings without MW-50 are the same, so at those powers, the H-0 ought to be slightly superior.  The H-0 should have a slight stall speed advantage everywhere even with the same amount of fuel because of the reduced equipment load.