Developer Assistance - British/Commonwealth aircraft references

[Avimimus]

Hello everyone,

 

Disclaimer - I feel it is important to be very clear: The developers have indicated that it might become possible to build new aircraft if we find enough references - but they have not said that they will create additional aircraft. There is clearly an openness to considering it - but there are no guarantees, even if we find enough data. In my personal opinion, a number of things would have to go right (Korea would have to do well enough, there would have to be enough resources that an expansion wasn't competing with producing the next module etc.)

 

 

Steps:

1. Identify the location of possible reference materials

2. Verify the quality of the reference materials, and obtain copies if useful

 

If you want to help, I can walk you through the research process. In some cases we'll need people who live near surviving aircraft or archives to pay visits. This is actually a pretty cool opportunity to look at original documents or get to go 'beyond the cordon' and see museum warbirds up close.

 

If you live near any of these locations - send me a private message!

 

Locations of interest (archives):

 

Gloucestershire:

- Gloucestershire Archives.

- Jet Age Museum Archives.

London:

- National Archives (Kew).

- Royal Air Force Museum Archives.

 

Locations of interest (aircraft):

 

List of preserved Gloster Meteors - Wikipedia <- see if there is one near you

 

Hawker Sea Fury - Wikipedia <- see if there is one near you

[Avimimus]

Information needed

 

Sea Fury FB.11

 

Photographs:
1. Cockpit photos (including details or areas not normally photographed)
2. High resolution walk-around photos

 

Drawings:
 

1. Very high accuracy orthographic drawings

2. Construction manuals

- Royal Air Force Museum - X006-7079 (unverified) 'aircraft component and assembly drawings'

? KEM REF 3/356 (Folder of research information on Hawker Sea Fury)

Maintenance manuals

Maintenance manuals, technical manuals, spare parts and powerplant technical manuals can be found here:

https://www.aircraft-reports.com/hawker-sea-fury/

? AVIA 54/516 (Sea Fury aircraft: analysis of unserviceability; design for reliability)

?? AIR 10/5073

 

Pilots' manuals

- AIR 10/6670 (Sea Fury: pilots notes)

- AIR 10/6669 (Sea Fury FB Mk 11 aircraft: pilots notes) (may be same as above)

- Wardog5711 (Sea Fury: pilots notes) (may be same as above)

- ADM 314/12 (Rocket projectile sight settings for medium dives in Sea Fury 11 aircraft)

- DSIR 23/18868 (Sea Fury Mk 10: best engine-off landing technique (AAEE/830/Pt 11))

- KEM PH/CD/29/3 (Compact Disc of a pdf of Pilot's notes for Centaurus XVIII engines in Sea Fury mk X aircraft)

? AIR 10/6668 (Sea Fury Aircraft Inspection Schedule Issue 1)

 

Evaluations:

 

Overview:

- AVIA 18/2811 (Sea Fury X TF 896 (Centaurus Mk XVIII): weight and loading data)

- SUPP 9/1 (Aircraft Data Sheets and Photographs. British types. Sea Fury (N.22/43): Naval Fighter.)

- AVIA 15/1790 (AIRCRAFT: Design and Development: Fighters and Fighter-Bombers (Code 6/3): Policy on development of Fury and Sea Fury fighters from Tempest to design specification F2/43.)

 

1. Performance tests

- AVIA 18/1446 (Sea Fury aircraft: handling trials)

- AVIA 18/1117 (Sea Fury aircraft: performance and handling trials)

- AVIA 18/2813 (Sea Fury X TF 902 and TF 908 (Centaurus 18): intensive flying trials)

- AVIA 18/2815 (Sea Fury F Mk10 TF 900 (Centaurus 18) handling trials without external stores)

- AVIA 18/2821 (Sea Fury FB Mk11 TF 986 (Centaurus 18): handling with rocket projectiles)

- AVIA 18/2820 (Sea Fury F Mk10 TF 900 and FB Mk11 TF 986 (Centaurus 18): handling with bombs.)- AVIA 18/2822 (Sea Fury FB Mk11 TF 958 (Centaurus 18): handling and jettisoning tests with combined loads of drop tanks and armament stores.)

- AVIA 18/2819 (Sea Fury Mk10 and 11 (Centaurus 18): handling and jettisoning tests with 90 and 45 gallon underwing drop tanks.)

- AVIA 18/2825 (Sea Fury FB Mk11 VR 920 (Centaurus 18): handling tests with changed rudder trimmer travel.)

- AVIA 18/2828 (Sea Fury FB Mk11 VW 588 (Centaurus 18): handling at extended aft centre of gravity 14.0 inch forward of datum with12.5 lb/ft inertia weight in the elevator circuit.)

- AVIA 18/2826 (Sea Fury FB Mk11 VW 588 (Centaurus 18): handling tests at extended aft centre of gravity with and without a larger inertia weight.)

- AVIA 18/2823 (Sea Fury FB Mk11 TF 958 (Centaurus 18): handling at an extended aft centre of gravity position.)

- AVIA 18/2824 (Sea Fury FB Mk11 986 (Centaurus 18): handling with ASR containers type G, alone and with drop tanks).

- AVIA 18/2829 (Sea Fury FB Mk11 VW 588 (Centaurus 18): brief handling trials with rocket assisted take-of gear fitted.)
- AVIA 18/2816 (Sea Fury F Mk10 SR 661 (Centaurus 18): spinning tests)

- AVIA 6/14928 (Model spinning tests on two single-engined fighters (Hawker Fury F2/43 and Sea-Fury N22/43))

- AVIA 18/2810 (Sea Fury X SR 666 4 x 20mm Mk5 guns gunnery trials)

? AVIA 18/1593 (Sea Fury II aircraft: gun trials)

? AVIA 10/466 (Flight tests of a power assisted elevator control on a Sea Fury)

? AVIA 18/2808 (Sea Fury Mk X SR 661 (Centaurus 12 SM): brief handling trials with modified propeller and larger rudder.)

? AVIA 18/2818 (Sea Fury F Mk10 897 (Centaurus 18): preliminary handling trials with larger tailplane and elevator.)

 

Deck handling:

- AVIA 18/2817 (Sea Fury F Mk10 TF 898 (Centaurus 18): determination of best engine off landing technique.)

- AVIA 6/16009 (Aerodrome dummy deck landings with Sea Fury X1 aircraft)

- AVIA 18/2809 (Sea Fury Mk X SR 661 (Centaurus 12 SM): deck trials and runway landings)

- AVIA 6/24470 (Intensive deck landing trials with Sea Fury MK II aircraft fitted with [lengthened arrester hook, modified damper, new design undercarriage].)

- AVIA 18/2807 (Sea Fury X SR 661 (Centaurus XII): suitability for deck operation)

- ADM 335/74 ("Trial 518/CT/131: deck landing trials of SEA FURY FB 11 aircraft with 14 ft/sec undercarriage.)

 

2. Subsystems

- ADM 264/24 (Sea Fury F Mk 10, FB Mk II and T Mk 20 power plants)

- AVIA 18/2858 (Sea Fury Mk11 VW 226, Sea Fury Mk T 20 VX 298: trials of external window launcher.)

- AVIA 18/2838 (Sea Fury Mk11 VR 920 and TF 986 (Centaurus 18): clearance for modified ammunition tank grids.)

- AVIA 18/2834 (Sea Fury 11 TF 986 (Centaurus 18): clearance for rocket projectile modified front strut firing attachment (12inch x 3 inch rocket projectile).)

- AVIA 18/2833 "Sea Fury 11 VR 92:0 accuracy trials of the flexible front carrier hook, Mk8 type 13 rocket projectile installation.

- AVIA 18/2857 (Sea Fury Mk11 VW 226, Sea Fury Mk T 20 WG 656: trials of tier carriage rocket projectiles and overload tanks.)

- AVIA 18/2854 (Sea Fury Mk11 VW 226, Sea Fury Mk T 20 VX 298: trials of 3 inch rocket projectiles.)

- AVIA 18/2831 (Sea Fury 11 TF 986 (Centaurus 18): trials of the Mk8 type 13 rocket projectile installation).

? AVIA 18/2855 (Sea Fury Mk11 VW 226 and Sea Fury Mk T 20 VX 298: carriage and release of 5 inch High Velocity Aircraft Rocket.)

- AVIA 18/2832 (Sea Fury Mk11 aircraft: acceptance trials of bombing installation)

- AVIA 18/2839 (Sea Fury Mk11 TF 986 (Centaurus 18): carriage and release of mines 'A' Mks 7 and 8 trial of static cord attachment point (part of Hawker MOD. N186)).

- AIR 10/6342 (Mining drill book: loading mines `A' Mk 8 on to Sea Fury 11)

- AVIA 18/2837 (Sea Fury Mk11 VR 920 (Centaurus 18) Mk8 installation fitted with intermediate guide rails.)

- AVIA 18/2830 (Sea Fury Mk11 (Centaurus 18): carriage and release of mark 1A sonobuoys)

- AVIA 18/2836 (Sea Fury 11 TF 986 (Centaurus 18): trial of empty case deflector plates 4 x 20mm Mk5 Hispano guns.)

- AVIA 18/2851 (Sea Fury VX 298 (Centaurus 18): radio acceptance trials)

- AVIA 18/2812 (Sea Fury X TF 898 and TF 962 (Centaurus Mk XVIII): radio trials)

- AIR 65/428 (Sea Fury aircraft modifications N.295 and N.3004 oblique and vertical F.24 camera.)

- ADM 1/23118 (Accident to Sea Fury FB11 WJ282 on 5 Sept.: modifications to be introduced to reduce deck landing accidents.)

?? AVIA 18/2814 (Sea Fury F Mk10 TF 908 (Centaurus 18): position error correction)

 

Engine data (separate from flight evaluations - see "1. Performance" test above for those):

- AIR 10/5126 (Centaurus XVIII Aero-Engine)

- AIR 10/5072 (Pilot's Notes for Sea Fury X Centaurus XVIII Engine)

- AIR 10/5125 (Centaurus XVIII & 57 Aero-Engines)

- AIR 10/5123 (The Centaurus XVIII, 57 & 58 Engines: Schedule of Spare Parts)

- AIR 10/6725 (Centaurus 18, 57, 58 aero engines: schedule of spare parts; amendments 5-12)

- DR 1/481 (Hawker Aircraft Ltd: F2/43 Fury Mk 1 NX 798 Bristol Centaurus XVIII), this one might be a photograph?

Note: KEM PH/CD/29/3 - Aerospace Bristol (not National Archive) is likely the same as AIR 10/5072 above ("Compact Disc of a pdf of Pilot's notes for Centaurus XVIII engines in Sea Fury mk X aircraft)

 

3. Service evaluations

- ADM 1/23260 (Air Combat reports from HMS Ocean Sea Fury and Firefly aircraft against enemy MIG15s.)

? DSIR 23/24515 (Sea Fury V-g records (RAE TN STRUCT 189))

? AVIA 6/21090 (V-g records from Sea Fury aircraft)

 

 

Meteor F.8 

 

Photographs:

1. Cockpit photos (including details or areas not normally photographed)

2. High resolution walk-around photos

 

Drawings:

 

1. Very high accuracy orthographic drawings

 

2. Construction manuals

Royal Air Force Museum - NRA 45071 (unverified) 'technical drawings, etc'

Gloucestershire Archives - D12402 (unverified) 'records of aircraft built'

 

Maintenance manuals

- GLOJA00840-12 (Meteor Mk8 spares manual)

- Reports on components that likely predate the F.8 (i.e. most likely F.4), but may be relevant due to shared components or ongoing development leading to the F.8):

- (AVIA 15/986 (Model tests) / AVIA 15/984 (Undercarriage) / AVIA 15/983 (body design) / AVIA 15/982 (wings) / AVIA 15/1050 (Pressure Cabin development) / AVIA 15/979 (Engine installation) / AVIA 15/980 (Fuel and oil systems)  / AVIA 44/602 (Air brake installation)

 

Pilots' manuals

- AIR 10/6035 (Pilots notes for Meteor F8 and FR9)

- GLOJA00840-27 (Pilots notes for Meteor F8 & Meteor FR9)  Note: Duplicate of above?

- GLOJA20000-01 (Meteor F Mk8 Pilot's Handling and Instructional Notes)

 

Evaluations:

1. Performance tests

- AVIA 54/443 (Meteor F Mk8, FR Mk 9 and PR Mk 10: official flight trials 1/2)

- AVIA 54/444 (Meteor F Mk8, FR Mk 9 and PR Mk 10: official flight trials 2/2)

- AVIA 18/2603 (Meteor F Mk8 (2 Derwent 8): brief handling tests with auto-stabilisation in yaw)

- AVIA 18/2600 (Meteor F Mk8 (2 x Derwent 8): handling checks including spinning with production spring tab ailerons without external stores.)

- AVIA 18/2602 (Meteor F Mk8 (2 x Derwent 8): comparative stick force per 'G' measurements at the practical aft centre of gravity without underwing stores.)

- DSIR 23/18805 (Spin tests - circa 1949 - possibly F.8 prototypes).

- AVIA 6/14630 (Model spinning tests - circa 1949 - possibly for F.8 prototypes)

- AVIA 18/1586 Performance and Handling trials (most likely not F.8 - probably F.4)

- AVIA 15/985 Flight and ground trials (most likely not F.8 - probably F.4)

? AIR 10/4599 (Meteor F Mk 8 Aircraft: General and Technical Information)

? GLOJA00005-22-03-23 (Article giving specification for Meteor Mk8)

 

2. Subsystem tests:

- AVIA 18/2604  (Meteor F Mk8 (2 x Derwent 8): brief assessment with restricted airbrake travel (Meteor model 1599))

- AVIA 18/2607 (Meteor F Mk8 (2 x Derwent 8): hood jettison tests in the blower tunnel)

- AVIA 18/2601 (Meteor F Mk8 (2 x Derwent 8): handling checks with production spring tab ailerons with external stores.)

- AVIA 18/1912 (Static thrust and fuel flow measurements using avtur and avgas as working fuels (meteor F Mk 8 WA.857).)

- DSIR 23/22482 (Comparative lethality of armament of F86E and Meteor 8 (RAE TM ARM 1488)

- AVIA 18/2606 (Meteor F Mk8 (2 x Derwent 8): brief assessment with 5 inch High Velocity Aircraft Rocket.) Note: Not used operationally, but might give some information that could help with modelling the RAAF RP-3 installation)

- GLOJA00005-20-03 (GLOJA00005-18-06) (Prints of experimental Meteor F Mark 8s carrying 16-95lb rocket projectiles and bombs)

 

 

3. Service evaluations

- AIR 8/1709 (Korea - MIG15/Meteor combats: progress and tactical, narrative reports; story of F86 v MIG15 by Squadron Leader W Harbison.)

? AVIA 54/440 (Meteor F Mk 8: CS(A) release to service)

- AVIA 15/1611 (Service entry)?

- AVIA 15/1106 (Production/Progress report, likely pre-F.8)

 

Other:

- AVIA 54/833 (Meteor F.Mk.8: design, development, manufacture and installation of prone pilot position and power operated flying controls and flight tests by Sir W.G. Armstrong Whitworth Aircraft Ltd. (TR D.A.R.D. Admin/875).) Note: Might be useful in revealing information about the unmodified aircraft.

- There are meeting notes surviving (some at the Rolls-Royce Heritage Trust, Coventry Branch) related to the development or procurment of the aircraft.

[migmadmarine]

If other Commonwealth aircraft info is available, should that be provided too, for the late seafire or firefly for example?

[Avimimus]

10 hours ago, migmadmarine said:

If other Commonwealth aircraft info is available, should that be provided too, for the late seafire or firefly for example?

 

Right now the focus is on the Sea Fury and the Meteor because they are the most likely to be included in an expansion. However, if you find good resources for other aircraft - then it is good to collect these resources. The Seafire Fr.47 is very interesting (contra-rotating propellers!) but was withdrawn after its first tour. I think that the Firefly would make a lot of sense as an AI aircraft at least, as it shared the decks with the Sea Furies, and was often escorted by them... but we should really focus our efforts on these first two... there is a lot of work to be done.

[Avimimus]

Update: We have two wonderful volunteers (and have identified a lot of possible sources of data so far).

 

However, we still need a volunteer to visit archives in the London area.

[Wardog5711]

I have this 69 page manual in PDF form:

Who is doing the collecting??

[Avimimus]

13 hours ago, Wardog5711 said:

Who is doing the collecting??

 

1. We'll use this thread to identify possible sources of information. In other words, discovering what might exist.

 

2. The next stage will be to look at what we've found and see if it is useful.

 

3. We'll then either photograph, photocopy, or pay for the scanning of the materials that are confirmed to be useful. This information will be sent to the devs.

 

I think a similar process will take place with photography (1. Arranging access to the airplane. 2. Taking an initial set of photographs. 3. Returning a few months later to take photographs of specific areas).

 

I'll make a note of the PDF! It will be interesting to see if it is the same manual as the ones in the archives!

[tattywelshie]

Hi, I live close to the Fleet Air Arm museum in the UK. They have a Sea Fury FB11 there I believe. Would be happy to help out if needed?

[LuftManu]

Hi @Avimimus! I have Firefly data. Count me in when it's needed to share PDFs or payment to visit those sites.




And good resolution for the cockpit

 

 

Kind regards,

[Avimimus]

On 8/15/2024 at 12:43 PM, LuftManu said:

Hi @Avimimus! I have Firefly data. Count me in when it's needed to share PDFs or payment to visit those sites.

 

Kind of you! There might eventually be some digitisation costs (possibly for drawings), but that would be at a later stage and the devs have generally avoided crowd funding.

 

The main cost at this point is actually visiting the archives in London. I could go, but the price of accommodations for two days in addition to the train gets pricey - so having a volunteer who lives in the London area would be ideal. If you know anyone (e.g. a squad mate), who lives in the area and likes looking through manilla envelopes and reading dusty old records... that would probably be the best solution.

[Estnische]

Hi gents, is there any interest in this Sea Fury? It is currently undegoing a very slow restoration.

 

 

https://www.warbirdsonline.com.au/2019/09/16/hawker-sea-fury-wg630-restoration/

Edited August 25, 2024 by Estnische

[Avimimus]

24 minutes ago, Estnische said:

Hi gents, is there any interest in this Sea Fury? It is currently undegoing a very slow restoration.

https://www.warbirdsonline.com.au/2019/09/16/hawker-sea-fury-wg630-restoration/

 

Yes, definitely. If it is undergoing active restoration - then that means there is a team there doing the restoring, and they may have knowledge about the best sources for documentation on more minor parts/details! If you know anyone in the area - let me know.

 

P.S. We still need someone in the London area.

[Estnische]

2 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

Yes, definitely. If it is undergoing active restoration - then that means there is a team there doing the restoring, and they may have knowledge about the best sources for documentation on more minor parts/details! If you know anyone in the area - let me know.

 

P.S. We still need someone in the London area.

 

I am a tour guide at the museum where this work is taking place to restore to static condition.. I can touch base with the work crew if you give me specifics. 

 

In the meantime, here is a video (Part 3) from two months ago. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xB_s5w5R-E

 

[EAF19_Marsh]

I am looking to go to the IWM / RAF Hendon in the next month or so for a project of my own. I got Jason access for the Tempest.

 

Let me know if I can help.

[LukeFF]

Hey guys, yes, anything you can (legally) acquire would be of much help - original documentation (not just pilot's manuals but also things like maintenance / technical manuals are also helpful), photos showing the cockpit layout from every possible angle, etc. External shots are also very helpful, too.

[Duggy]

From A&A paintworks an original close up of an FAA Sea Fury,down in Korea.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ii120/Duggy009/Hawker_Sea_Fury_wreck.jpg

[Stonehouse]

Temora Aviation Museum in southern New South Wales Australia has a restored Meteor F8 (which does display flights on airshow weekends at the musuem). It was restored and finished to match George Hale's aircraft (77 SQD RAAF). The museum is part of the RAAF Historic aircraft flight, and they do all the maintenance etc on site and would have a complete set of both workshop and pilot manuals plus the engineering staff to keep the aircraft flying.  I believe this aircraft is the only or perhaps 1 of 2 remaining flying F8s in the world. 

 

Musuem website Temora Aviation Museum - Home of Australia’s Historic Ex-military Aircraft

 

[Avimimus]

Not U.K. related - but I'm still adding here for reference - in the least briefing room the developers expressed interested in information on whether the following were used in Korea:

- 150 octane fuel
- 0.50 cal API-T M49
- 0.50 cal Incendiary M23/M48

 

They also expressed interest in references for the Skyraider AD-4

[Stonehouse]

21 hours ago, Avimimus said:

- 150 octane fuel

Not sure if it is conclusive but this reference (https://media.defense.gov/2010/Sep/24/2001329764/-1/-1/0/AFD-100924-016.pdf) states on pg 271 as below for the USAF. Doesn't necessarily apply to Commonwealth or UK forces. I have also seen mentioned (unsubstantiated) that the standard USAF fuel was 115/145 for piston engine aircraft in the post war era and into the 1950s. Contradicting that I've read that the USAF used 100/130 (but agreeing with the text below) and the Navy and Marines used 115/145.  

 

Unsubstantiated comments here https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/av-gas-types-in-korea.47967/

Edited August 29, 2024 by Stonehouse

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

Not sure if it is conclusive but this reference (https://media.defense.gov/2010/Sep/24/2001329764/-1/-1/0/AFD-100924-016.pdf) states on pg 271 as below for the USAF. Doesn't necessarily apply to Commonwealth or UK forces. I have also seen mentioned (unsubstantiated) that the standard USAF fuel was 115/145 for piston engine aircraft in the post war era and into the 1950s. Contradicting that I've read that the USAF used 100/130 (but agreeing with the text below) and the Navy and Marines used 115/145.  

 

Unsubstantiated comments here https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/av-gas-types-in-korea.47967/

 

Thanks, yes, I found the same thing. The current plan right now is to keep 150 grade as an option for missions outside of career mode. 

[migmadmarine]

What octane rating does the sim treat as default? 

[LukeFF]

100/130

[MajorMagee]

It looks like 115/145 eventually became the sole avgas supplied in Korea for the Marine Corps aircraft to simplify the pipeline logistics issues.

 

https://www.quartermasterfoundation.org/petroleum-supply-in-korea/

Edited August 30, 2024 by MajorMagee

[Peachy9]

On 8/28/2024 at 5:20 PM, Avimimus said:

Not U.K. related - but I'm still adding here for reference - in the least briefing room the developers expressed interested in information on whether the following were used in Korea:

- 150 octane fuel
- 0.50 cal API-T M49
- 0.50 cal Incendiary M23/M48

 

They also expressed interest in references for the Skyraider AD-4

While it doesn't specify the ammunition type - the report i just uploaded in the shared drive indicates a standard load in F86 Sabre of 1:1 Ap and incendiary with every 5th round being tracer. Also that if all guns are fired then deceleration of 15-20 knots occurs - so tailchases are out given Migs better speed!

 

Also Mig Cannon Ammo was self detonating - so puffs of smoke often first sign that you were being bounced! 

 

Edited October 21, 2024 by Peachy9

[Avimimus]

Thanks for the great work at the archives Peachy9!

[Fizzix]

There's a lot of stuff here, reasonably priced

 

https://www.aircraft-reports.com/hawker-sea-fury/

[Fizzix]

Some Meteor stuff

I have paper copies of AVIA 18/1117 (Sea Fury aircraft: performance and handling trials)