FFB joysticks

[Varibraun]

Just received my Rhino this week, so very early days for me, but am honestly euphoric with it so far (part of the reason is it's impact on a problem I have been having with my DoF P3, that I will post about later in that forum since it doesn't relate directly to the Rhino).  Also, I received it a few months sooner than I expected due to the fact I think a lot of the reservations dropped out when the other mainstream manufactured FFB models were announced a few weeks ago.  From that perspective, I want to thank @Aapjefor putting thread this together because it helped me think about what is potentially coming, but to ultimately still decide to pull the trigger when my Rhino order # came up more quickly than I thought.  I will try to post more when I feel like I have enough experience with it, but I wanted to make one initial observation and answer a couple of the questions posed above:

 

This main observation is included as a factor in the Aapje's OP, but I was still shocked at what a difference the additional TeleFFB makes even when IL2 supports FFB natively.  I spent the first couple of days with the Rhino just experimenting in the base Config software that works out of the box with IL2's FFB.  The effects were nice and reminded me of what I vaguely remembered from using the first generation FFB sticks 20 years ago - but of course improved due to the size of the motors.  However, since I had been using SimShaker with a Jetpad and 2 Buttkickers (one close to the joystick base), I was already used to some decent shaking feedback in my joystick so I wasn't blown away (especially considering the price) since the real new addition was mostly the variable resistance. 

 

That all changed for me when I added the TeleFFB software that augments the native FFB.  I don't exactly know how to describe it, but the a/c came alive in the stick, including the feel/need for trim.  So, for me, the real FFB "wow factor," came due to this software masterpiece working in conjunction with the Rhino.  I don't think that should be underestimated as people make their decision.

 

On 7/28/2024 at 3:48 AM, dgiatr said:

1. Does it cutout or reduce its power after sustained wwii dogfight?

 

 

The answer Aapje provided is of course correct (there are some good stress testing YT videos), but so far with the settings I have been using, it hasn't happened to me so far in a few hours of both WWI & WWII dogfights.

 

21 hours ago, dgiatr said:

1.Can anybody choose stronger motors? I see some possible choices in their site ordering form

 

You can choose stronger motors if you DIY kit build one, but the completed one only comes with the standard motors.  That said, I personally wouldn't elect stronger motors due to the increased size of the base, especially knowing that you will be mounting onto a DoF P3 rig.  Having now mounted it on my P3, I couldn't have anything larger that the standard Rhino without the need to raise the seat and probably the rudder pedals.  So far, since I am not using any extension (the Rhino base has the equivalent of a 10cm extension), I haven't used more than around 60% of the total force setting knob for any aircraft.

 

On 7/28/2024 at 6:49 AM, Youtch said:

Is there any plan or way to replace the fan by a less noisy one?

 

I don't think so, but if playing in VR or in a headset, I don't think they would be a noise problem to the pilot even when they kick in.  As noted, I am really early into this so I can't directly comment, but this YT channel has good stress test videos and I have timestamped the video below where he gets it up to 50+ degrees and I at least can't hear the fans in the video over his conversational tone (putting this here for the timestamp, you and Aapje already included it above):

 

 

Edited July 29, 2024 by Varibraun

[Aapje]

5 hours ago, dgiatr said:

2. All thrustmasters grips can be placed on vpforce rhino, even t16000m?

 

No, the grips from the all in one joysticks can't be used. Only the ones designed to be used on a separate base.

 

So these:

https://www.thrustmaster.com/en-us/products/f-16c-viper-hotas-add-on-grip/

https://www.thrustmaster.com/en-us/products/f-a-18c-hornet-hotas-add-on-grip/

 

But you can consider other brands as well. I would personally choose Virpil over these. Virpil doesn't need an adapter. Note that one reviewer said that the heavy grips worked really badly with it in their experience (at 1 hour into the video):

 

 

[Youtch]

On 7/28/2024 at 8:44 PM, Varibraun said:

Having now mounted it on my P3, I couldn't have anything larger that the standard Rhino without the need to raise the seat and probably the rudder pedals.  So far, since I am not using any extension (the Rhino base has the equivalent of a 10cm extension), I haven't used more than around 60% of the total force setting knob for any aircraft.

I believe this was pointed out to DOF reality as  people wants to  keep on using extension, and they are looking at how to lower the base.

[Dagwoodyt]

 

 

[Aapje]

I finally had time to see it and it's the first half-decent review. He didn't properly test to heat failure, unfortunately, but there is some good information here. I added it to the info post.

 

And the outcome was pretty much what I expected, with the software being far from good enough.

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

I finally had time to see it and it's the first half-decent review. He didn't properly test to heat failure, unfortunately, but there is some good information here. I added it to the info post.

 

And the outcome was pretty much what I expected, with the software being far from good enough.

This is a really valuable review. Moza, unfortunately, is giving off Pimax vibes. They are marketing agressively without seeming to have understanding of customer base needs and expectations.

[Aapje]

For a first entry in a new product category, that is fully expected. Remember that I told you guys not to preorder, unless you wanted to gamble 

 

But so far I haven't seen any lethal issues, although we still need that run to heat failure. The software can be improved over time and they've got a big advantage in that the Rhino has already shown what works. Copying is easier than inventing.

[Lusekofte]

There Are a few misleading information in this tread. 
First

Brünner do have overheating problems 

put a extension on it and it will toast. 
Second 

The power cut button in vp force is highly valued and I say all with this kind of power should have it. I use it every time I switch off a sim. Devices like this can destroy itself if it get signals of where it should be and is not. 
It is a safety measure I would not be without. It also got a very handy force tuning nob I would not be without. 
Otherwise a very informative topic. But looking for solid proof of overheating problems with Brunner should be no problem. 
I talked with two owners however. 
both use it exclusively for chopper flying and it is perfect for that with no need for extension according to them. 
VP force got a very intuitive software for tweaking it. I really like to know that part for other types

[Aapje]

@Lusekofte

 

I actually spent a rather frustrating amount of time looking for solid information on how and when the Brunner overheats and other information. The issue is that Brunner has revamped it with more powerful motors and potentially other changes, but the testimony I've seen was for the older version (that is no longer for sale) or people do not report their version. So I chose to leave that out, rather than potentially misinform people. Perhaps an owner of the new version will do a proper review one day. I'm not asking for much, just clarity on what version they are using and some testimony that seems reasonably objective.

 

And I mentioned the emergency button for the Rhino, so I don't see how I was misleading there. I intentionally chose to do my best to present the information fairly objectively, rather than tell people what they should think. I don't claim that my opinion is perfect anyway.

 

If you do have fairly solid evidence that something I said is wrong, or that I left something relevant out, I will change or add it. But I will not add things that people think they know, but cannot provide solid evidence for. And I will not add comments claiming that an emergency button is important. At least not until we know of some accident or incident where the button (or its absence) was important.

Edited August 1, 2024 by Aapje

[Lusekofte]

12 hours ago, Aapje said:

solid information on how and when the Brunner overheats and other information

In dcs there is  a topic about it. It is not meant for cfs albeit Brunner did make a software after a while enabling it for use outside X plane and Msfs. It can be flown in cfs games without extension and the user are aware of its tendency to get warm. Owners say it is not really a problem. But no EXTENSION!

with the price of Brünner I see no reason for considering it for cfs related use. For choppers it is totally fine. 
Force feedback is only a advantage worth considering for Airbus and two seat trainers 

ww2 and vintage planes in general. But absolutely wonderful for choppers. And that is what I do. I uninstalled Gb, msfs and basically only do civilian oriented chopper flying with a tad of military. 
for anything else you do not care about money. 

[Aapje]

@Lusekofte

 

I was not impressed by the quality of the information on the DCS forum. The most important thing that was missing was which Brunner-base they were actually using. The old base that you can no longer buy is pretty much irrelevant.

 

I personally don't care very much about the Brunner. As far as I can see it lives on borrowed time, with the only potential reason to get one is if you want a base right now and cannot wait for the Rhino, or for any of the new bases to get into a usable state. And even if you want a base right away, it seems smarter to find someone to build a Rhino for you, like Winger. It's still cheaper than Brunner and the software & (community) support is better. I added the information for the Brunner to the comment to be complete, but I put it way down on the bottom for a reason.

 

Quote

Force feedback is only a advantage worth considering for Airbus and two seat trainers, ww2 and vintage planes in general.

 

That's still a big market, especially since many players use a variety of planes. And one of the best jet simulations available does benefit from FFB:

 

 

Anyway, the big advantage of a FFB stick is that it can adapt to whatever aircraft you use. Even planes that have no real FFB, but differ in how much resistance the stick gives to the user, provide an issue for classic, spring-based sticks, since you need to change the springs to have different resistance. A FFB stick can be changed just through software and in theory, is always better than a spring-based stick, even for fly-by-wire planes.

[Lusekofte]

I am all for fb for all 

it make them more affordable. However not many I would recommend except vp force rhino. 
But that will change when people start to use them. To me they all are equally good. It is life expectancy that is the real question. This is why heat is important. Not once has the fan started on mine. So I test it regularly and put my hand in the metal box to check. 

[Dagwoodyt]

He is again pushing the "full force feedback" Beast. Does anyone know in what country he's located? I am unsure as to whether the Beast could even get through customs if needing to be imported into countries outside the EU.

[Aapje]

Why wouldn't you be able to import it? I know that importing live animals is banned, but even customs officers are probably smart enough to figure out that this is not an animal, despite the name.

Edited August 4, 2024 by Aapje

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

Why wouldn't you be able to import it? I know that importing live animals are banned, but even customs officers are probably smart enough to figure out that this is not an animal, despite the name.

Very insightful. Thanks!

[dgiatr]

Hello to all,

 in case somebody wants to buy a rhino vpforce will have to wait very long time , do you know if there is anybody who sells and makes diy rhino kits readymade for the end-user for Europe?

Do you know if there any people who bought rhino in this way?

[Aapje]

@dgiatr

 

Yes, here:

 

 

[GVL224]

2 часа назад, dgiatr сказал:

Hello to all,

 in case somebody wants to buy a rhino vpforce will have to wait very long time , do you know if there is anybody who sells and makes diy rhino kits readymade for the end-user for Europe?

Do you know if there any people who bought rhino in this way?

What's wrong with FFBeast?

 

New version of the FFBeast Joystick mechanics...
Available for order.
My website https://gvl224.com/
Write here or to my email.

[SR-F_Winger]

@dgiatr
I tried to message you. Says you cannot receive messages.
In case youre interested in a Rhino kit please contact @Kaltokri or me via PM.
Reference here:

 and here for Opinions and exoperiences:
https://forum.dcs.world/topic/343192-vpforce-rhino-diy-kit-for-sale-again-rhino-in-a-day/page/2/#comment-5497973

 

Regards and safe flying

Edited August 17, 2024 by SR-FWinger

[dgiatr]

3 hours ago, SR-FWinger said:

@dgiatr
I tried to message you. Says you cannot receive messages.
In case youre interested in a Rhino kit please contact @Kaltokri or me via PM.
Reference here:

 and here for Opinions and exoperiences:
https://forum.dcs.world/topic/343192-vpforce-rhino-diy-kit-for-sale-again-rhino-in-a-day/page/2/#comment-5497973

 

Regards and safe flying

Hi SR-FWinger, can you please tell me if it's possible to adapt the grip of a thrustmaster t16000m joystick to your rhino base? I know t16000m are not designed to work as standalone grips but I would like to know if i could build any diy adaptor to match your rhino base axle. What electric connections should I make in that case? I am lefthanded and I cannot find any vkb or virpil ( like the alpha or Prime..) or thrustmasters standalone grips to fulfill my needs. T16000m is suitable for me because it has a lefthanded grip and it also has two large buttons side by side symmetrically which are very useful to use when I look back left or right in vr mode using vr necksafer. VPC MongoosT-50 Grip would do the job but they dont produce it anymore. Is there any diy solution for t16000m to be adapted on your diy rhino base ?🙂

Thank you

 

Edited August 17, 2024 by dgiatr

[Aapje]

I'm pretty sure that the answer is no. And I don't understand why you would even want to use the t16000m. Your reason makes no sense to me, as there are plenty of hats on the quality grips, so you can just program it so pushing the hat left makes you look left and pushing it right makes you look right.

 

A quality grip is just so much nicer than the poor t16000m. I think that this is the only option right now:

 

https://flightsimcontrols.com/product/scg-kosmosima-stand-alone-grip-for-gunfighter-left-hand/

 

You would need an adapter from VPForce and a BlackBox from VKB.

 

VPForce is going to add better support for the Virpil grips soon, but apparently not for the left-handed Alpha:

 

https://virpil-controls.eu/vpc-constellation-alpha-l.html

 

Otherwise that would be the easier option. You can try asking Propelor on the DCS forum or the VPForce discord, if you want the Virpil.

 

PS. Or you can do what most lefties, like me, seem to do. Adapt and use a right handed stick. With a left-handed grip, you just create the next problem, which is a right handed throttle. There are options for that, but it limits you.

Edited August 18, 2024 by Aapje

[dgiatr]

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

I'm pretty sure that the answer is no. And I don't understand why you would even want to use the t16000m. Your reason makes no sense to me, as there are plenty of hats on the quality grips, so you can just program it so pushing the hat left makes you look left and pushing it right makes you look right.

 

 

Yeah, I have already tried hat switches and it doesn't work so nice as two simple buttons the one next to the other especially in quick dogfight situations when you change quickly directions looking your six from left to right and vice versa.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2024 by dgiatr

[dgiatr]

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

PS. Or you can do what most lefties, like me, seem to do. Adapt and use a right handed stick. With a left-handed grip, you just create the next problem, which is a right handed throttle. There are options for that, but it limits you.

What grip do you have?

 

Are there any right handed grips that are suitable for left handed people? Of course with some adaptation...

 

For example could I use this one?

https://flightsimcontrols.com/product/modern-combat-grip-mcg-socket-rev-b/

[SR-F_Winger]

Sorry, no that is not porssible.
You can however use all available TM and VPC grips. They are quite well available for small money used here in the forums or on ebay and other sites. Try DCS forum for sale section. Lots of people sell their used grips.
https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/thrustmaster-a10-c-grip/2835565803-225-5613

 

Also there is an adapter for Winwing or VKB Grips available on official VPForce store.
Winwing works with Rhino own Electronics and for VKB youll need a blackbox.

7 hours ago, dgiatr said:

What grip do you have?

 

Are there any right handed grips that are suitable for left handed people? Of course with some adaptation...

 

For example could I use this one?

https://flightsimcontrols.com/product/modern-combat-grip-mcg-socket-rev-b/

VPC offers some left handed versions of their grips.
The constellation alpha for example. Look here:
https://virpil-controls.eu/shop/flightsticks/grips?hand=15

Edited August 18, 2024 by SR-FWinger

[Aapje]

9 hours ago, dgiatr said:

What grip do you have?

 

I have the right handed Kosmosima grip, but it's on the Gladiator base. I don't have a FFB base yet, but I'm going to get one eventually, which is why I made this topic, to keep track of how the market for FFB-sticks develops.

 

9 hours ago, dgiatr said:

 

Are there any right handed grips that are suitable for left handed people? Of course with some adaptation...

 

For example could I use this one?

https://flightsimcontrols.com/product/modern-combat-grip-mcg-socket-rev-b/

 

No, there is no left handed version and I don't see how you can make that work, even if you 3D-print your own shell. The side button is just on the wrong side, and that will block any attempts at making a left handed shell.

 

Quote

Yeah, I have already tried hat switches and it doesn't work so nice as two simple buttons the one next to the other especially in quick dogfight situations when you change quickly directions looking your six from left to right and vice versa.

 

The Virpil Alpha pretty much has that, with a button on the top middle and the bottom right of the head of the grip. In general, that seems like a great grip for the VPForce Rhino, both because it is plastic (heavy grips are not great for the Rhino) and because it doesn't need an adapter. But it's unclear whether the left-handed version will be supported. Like I said, you can contact Propelor, who is the maker of the Rhino and who is working with Virpil to better support their grips.

 

If you want the buttons on the head of the grip, then unless Propelor starts supporting the left-handed Alpha, then the only solution I see is to switch over to having the stick in your right hand. Most likely, you'll adapt and it will make things much easier.

 

If you insist on keeping a left-handed stick, then the only option that I know will work is the Kosmosima grip. It does have 3 buttons, two of which are on the head, although they are not next to each other. But they are very easy to reach. You can see them colored in white and red below. The red button is a thumb button and the white button is activated with your index finger. So you'll have to train yourself that the index finger is for looking left and the thumb for looking right.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2024 by Aapje

[dgiatr]

1 hour ago, SR-FWinger said:

Sorry, no that is not porssible.
You can however use all available TM and VPC grips. They are quite well available for small money used here in the forums or on ebay and other sites. Try DCS forum for sale section. Lots of people sell their used grips.
https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/thrustmaster-a10-c-grip/2835565803-225-5613

 

Also there is an adapter for Winwing or VKB Grips available on official VPForce store.
Winwing works with Rhino own Electronics and for VKB youll need a blackbox.

VPC offers some left handed versions of their grips.
The constellation alpha for example. Look here:
https://virpil-controls.eu/shop/flightsticks/grips?hand=15

 

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

 

I have the right handed Kosmosima grip, but it's on the Gladiator base. I don't have a FFB base yet, but I'm going to get one eventually, which is why I made this topic, to keep track of how the market for FFB-sticks develops.

 

 

No, there is no left handed version and I don't see how you can make that work, even if you 3D-print your own shell. The side button is just on the wrong side, and that will block any attempts at making a left handed shell.

 

 

The Virpil Alpha pretty much has that, with a button on the top middle and the bottom right of the head of the grip. In general, that seems like a great grip for the VPForce Rhino, both because it is plastic (heavy grips are not great for the Rhino) and because it doesn't need an adapter. But it's unclear whether the left-handed version will be supported. Like I said, you can contact Propelor, who is the maker of the Rhino and who is working with Virpil to better support their grips.

 

If you want the buttons on the head of the grip, then unless Propelor starts supporting the left-handed Alpha, then the only solution I see is to switch over to having the stick in your right hand. Most likely, you'll adapt and it will make things much easier.

 

If you insist on keeping a left-handed stick, then the only option that I know will work is the Kosmosima grip. It does have 3 buttons, although they are not next to each other. But they are very easy to reach. You can see them colored in white and red below. The red button is a thumb button and the white button is activated with your index finger. So you'll have to train yourself that the index finger is for looking left and the thumb for looking right.

 

 

Thank you guys for your great help!

 

 

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

 

The Virpil Alpha pretty much has that, with a button on the top middle and the bottom right of the head of the grip. In general, that seems like a great grip for the VPForce Rhino, both because it is plastic (heavy grips are not great for the Rhino) and because it doesn't need an adapter. But it's unclear whether the left-handed version will be supported. Like I said, you can contact Propelor, who is the maker of the Rhino and who is working with Virpil to better support their grips.

 

 

 

 

What do you mean about virpil Alpha lefthanded grip support?

If I get it right now , won't be able to attach it on Rhino vpforce base to make it work?

What's the difference for Rhino base if it has a right or left grip on top of it to move?

Thanks

Edited August 18, 2024 by dgiatr

[Aapje]

48 minutes ago, dgiatr said:

What do you mean about virpil Alpha lefthanded grip support?

If I get it right now , won't be able to attach it on Rhino vpforce base to make it work?

What's the difference for Rhino base if it has a right or left grip on top of it to move?

Thanks

 

The base has to know how to talk with the grip, to convert the signals from the grip to the right USB commands. Propelor is working with Virpil to make this work correctly and he will soon release new firmware that will work for some of the right handed grips.

 

I just got a reaction from Propeler and the plan is to support the left-handed stick as well, but he hasn't got one to test. So he needs a Rhino owner with a left-handed Virpil grip to help him test the functionality, to see if anything still needs to be fixed. I don't think that there are many people who put a left handed grip on an FFB base, so you might want to be his guinea pig, to make it work.

 

The main reason why we have left handed grips in the first place seems to be less for left handed people, but more for HOSAS setups (two joysticks), which are popular with space simmers. For example, the Omni Throttle from VKB:

 

I don't see any real market for doing this with a FFB base, though, so I can't imagine many people putting a left-handed stick on the Rhino.

 

If you use a VKB grip, then the base doesn't actually talk to the grip, but you have a separate cable coming out of the adapter that goes to the VKB Black Box. So then the Black Box converts the signals to USB and it is a standard VKB product, so it can do everything.

 

PS. The Omni Throttle in the right handed version is probably the best solution if you want a right-handed throttle for IL-2 (if you fly single engine fighters).

Edited August 18, 2024 by Aapje

[SR-F_Winger]

Just FYI: There is no reason why a left handed VPC grip should not work on a Rhino base. Electronics wise its the same.
Its purely geometric diffrence of the physical button layout. Nothing else.

To make 100% sure just ask on VPForce discord. But i would bet money on the anser being "YES it works"

Edited August 18, 2024 by SR-FWinger

[Aapje]

Yeah, the signals are probably the exact same, so I would expect it to work. But obviously Propeler can't guarantee it without testing it.

[dgiatr]

4 hours ago, Aapje said:

Yeah, the signals are probably the exact same, so I would expect it to work. But obviously Propeler can't guarantee it without testing it.

So guys from rhino discord channel say that virpil alpha prime constellation lefthand or righthand grips works the same and fine with rhino vpforce base👌

[Aapje]

Yeah, that one has the two buttons close to each other as well.

[Youtch]

9 hours ago, Aapje said:

you use a VKB grip, then the base doesn't actually talk to the grip, but you have a separate cable coming out of the adapter that goes to the VKB Black Box. So then the Black Box converts the signals to USB and it is a standard VKB product, so it can do everything.

Does it mean that all VKB buttons work as with a VKB gunbase and with the same software from VKB?

 

This would be good news as i was worried that some advanced functionalities such as smart trigger or differential break would stop working when adapting a Ultimate VKB grip to a Rhino base.

 

Does it also imply that Rhino software would just manage X and Y axis when mounted with VKB grip, and would count as a separate controller for Il2 and DCS?

[Aapje]

@Youtch

 

Yes, the computer talks to the VKB Black Box, so that is not different from using a VKB grip on a VKB base, which also uses the Black Box.

 

With the Rhino, I don't think that you have to worry much, because the developer is very on the ball. For example, he even has special software so the VKB grip and the Rhino can talk to each other, which allows force trim to work.

 

And it should indeed show up as two different devices. Which might be an issue for those who run into the device limit.

[dgiatr]

On 8/18/2024 at 7:42 PM, dgiatr said:

So guys from rhino discord channel say that virpil alpha prime constellation lefthand or righthand grips works the same and fine with rhino vpforce base👌

 

On 8/18/2024 at 8:43 PM, Aapje said:

Yeah, that one has the two buttons close to each other as well.

OK Virpil alpha left handed ordered......fingers crossed...🙄

Edited August 20, 2024 by dgiatr

[Aapje]

Moza now officially released the table clamp for 44 euros, specifically for the FFB base:

It might work for a side mount:

They also have some weird adapter plate that I don't understand the use of: https://mozaracing.com/product/flight-base-mount-adapter

 

 

Edited August 21, 2024 by Aapje

[Dagwoodyt]

Flight Base Mount Adapter

The adapter is needed for mounting to a wooden or other surface as can be done with Rhino or ffBeast.

[Aapje]

Surely that can't be the only purpose, because there is no way that the people who build their own (wooden) rig are plentiful enough to make this product worthwhile? But perhaps it works for an alu rig?

[Dagwoodyt]

Price seems OK.

[Youtch]

On 8/18/2024 at 10:20 PM, Youtch said:

  On 8/18/2024 at 1:11 PM, Aapje said:

you use a VKB grip, then the base doesn't actually talk to the grip, but you have a separate cable coming out of the adapter that goes to the VKB Black Box. So then the Black Box converts the signals to USB and it is a standard VKB product, so it can do everything.

Where do you manage to find this information?

[Aapje]

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

Where do you manage to find this information?

 

Mainly the VPForce Rhino Manual, because they make that adapter, but also comments by people elsewhere.

 

And of course, I already know a bit about how the VKB ecosystem works.