FFB joysticks

[Aapje]

Currently available or in development:

 

VPForce Rhino FFB base (available)

- From an amateur inventor upset at the lack of modern FFB options (Valmantas Palikša aka Walmis)

- 9 Nm peak torque

- Power: 150 W (180 max)

- 800 euro excluding shipping and excluding VAT (from Lithuania)

- Roughly 6/7 month waiting list

- Size: 205 mm x 180 mm x 290 mm (height to the top of the grip connector).

- Very good software

- Single man 'shed' production, 640 have shipped as of August 12th 2024

- Compatible with sticks from Trustmaster, VKB, Winwing and Virpil

- Option to build it yourself (no wait time and ability to use more powerful motors, requires 3D-printer or CNC machine/shop)

- Has a very good manual

- Has a twist knob to change the power of the base and an emergency cutoff button on top of the base

- Checking the position in the order queue and (community) support goes through Discord

Media

- Review

- 18 month review

- Playlist curated by the inventor

- Force test

- Another force test part 1 & part 2

 

FFBeast FFB base (available)

- From an amateur inventor upset at the lack of modern FFB options (Roman aka Propeler3D)

- 35 Nm peak torque, peak load on the handle with an extension 40 cm from the axis of the mechanics is 12 kg. Should be around 20 kg with a 20 cm extension.

- 800/899 euro excluding shipping. Depends on who makes it. Each manufacturer makes them differently (at least the housing).

- Waiting list depends on the manufacturer. Shortest seems about 2 months. Over 100 units produced so far.

- Size: 230 mm x 190 mm x 280 mm (height to the top plate). Height to the top of the grip connector is 319 mm. These sizes are just for the builds by Propeler.

- Good software

- Production by the inventor (Poland) and others, including @GVL224 (EU - link) and Volodymyr (Russia)

- Compatible with sticks from Trustmaster, VKB and Virpil. No information about Winwing sticks.

- Option to build it yourself (no wait time, requires 3D-printer or CNC machine/shop)

- Lacks a good manual

- Most information and contact with producers runs through Discord

Media

- Review

 

Moza AB9 FFB base (available)

- From an simracing company new to flight sim gear. They rapidly made a good name for themselves in simracing, since they started selling products in 2021.

- 8.8 Nm sustained torque (estimated)

- 600 euro ($550) excluding shipping. Moza also sell through local dealers, so you might want to wait for greatly reduce shipping costs.

- Preorders opened on June 27th, with a claimed shipping date of 4-6 weeks.

- Size: 228 x 157 x 205 mm

- Weight: 7 kg

- Factory production in China

- Supports Trustmaster grips, their own MH16 grip (hats do not have push functionality) and Virpil (LEDs do not work and FLNKR is not yet supported). VKB grips can be used with the Rhino adapter.

- Moza sell a separate Z-axis module to add a twist function, that also works as a 97 mm extension (twist can be disabled) 

- Review

- Review by DCS' Jester

- Manual

 

Caution

 - The Trustmaster offset adapter has two tabs that are in the way (they can be ground off).

 

Moza AB6 FFB base (announced)

- Half as powerful as the AB9

- 4.4 Nm sustained torque

- Size: 188 x 123 x 163

- Weight: 2.95 kg

 

Winwing Cyber Taurus FFB base (coming in 2025)

- From an established flight sim gear company

- Three versions

1. 20+ Nm with a belt drive for $415
2. 60+ Nm with a belt drive for $700
3. 16+ Nm with direct drive for $700

- Might be coming in the summer

- Designed to be deep, but not wide, with only a 15 cm width

 

Virpil FFB base (coming in 2026)

- From an established flight sim gear company

- Announced that they are working on it on Jun 27th 2024, which is the same day that preorders opened for the Moza base. This suggests that it may be a damage control announcement to make people wait for the Virpil base, rather than buy the Moza base.

- Pretty much no information yet. Have not shown a prototype.

 

Flitesim FFB base (delayed because they will release FFB pedals first in March 2025)

- From a Singapore company seeking to provide a realistic simming experience because real airplanes are very expensive in their country

- 15 Nm peak torque

 

Simnautica Eagle

- From a company specializing in glider simulation

- 11 Nm peak torque or 16 Nm with the boost kit

- 1200 euro excluding VAT

- 250 euro for the boost kit (bigger power supply)

- Developed together with FFBeast

- Size: 188 mm wide x 287 mm deep x 158 mm high

- The grip cable doesn't go through the connector

- The base is sold with a basic grip without buttons

- Compatible with Thrustmaster grips, with an adapter

 

Brunner CLS-E MK II (available)

- From a Swiss boutique company that seems to produce these by hand

- 6.8 Nm peak torque

- $1,429 without shipping

- Size: 220x185x187 mm (height is to where the stick mounts, 143 mm is the height to the flat surface)

- Weight: 3.5 kg without stick

- Compatible with sticks from Trustmaster and Virpil.

- Mounting options: only the top plate has mounting holes

- For private and single pilot applications a perpetual license to their CLS2Sim software is included in the CLS-E product price. For dual cockpit, commercial, professional, military and academic use, a $559 software license needs to be acquired.

- Infosheet

I suggest that we use this topic to collect information on FFB bases, related accessories, reviews, etc; and to discuss them. I'll try to update this post when we get more information (or new products).

Edited June 28 by Aapje
Added Moza weights

[GVL224]

I’ll add about FFBeast (since I’m building it).
- peak load on the handle with an extension 40 cm from the axis of the mechanics is 12 kg (not measured in Newtons). on extensions for 20 cm handles about 20 kg?
On my “rail” pedals the load is about 40 kg!
- available from 800 euros excluding shipping.
- taking into account several independent FFBeas manufacturers, the queue is from 2 months. More than 100 units were made (according to my conservative guess).

[Aapje]

So the price on the FFBeast site is wrong or is that a different manufacturer? Is there a list of manufacturers with links to where people can find them?

 

I'll update the info later. Note that I won't include FFB pedals/yokes/etc to keep focus.

[GVL224]

47 минут назад, Aapje сказал:

So the price on the FFBeast site is wrong or is that a different manufacturer? Is there a list of manufacturers with links to where people can find them?

 

I'll update the info later. Note that I won't include FFB pedals/yokes/etc to keep focus.

I know that in addition to the author of the “program” Roman (Propeler3D), FFBeast devices are manufactured for FFBeast in the Russian Federation by Volodymyr (Musulmanin) and I in Europe (GVL224) https://gvl224.com/. There are several other people who make FFBeast on different continents.

[Dagwoodyt]

So far as I am aware the Rhino is the only unit that has an "emergency" cut-off button. That is a feature worth mentioning.

[GVL224]

1 час назад, Dagwoodyt сказал:

So far as I am aware the Rhino is the only unit that has an "emergency" cut-off button. That is a feature worth mentioning.

The emergency shutdown button is perfectly replaced by a switch on the power strip
It is not always possible to reach the “emergency” button installed on the base of the joystick when the handle can “wave” there :).

[Aapje]

16 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

So far as I am aware the Rhino is the only unit that has an "emergency" cut-off button. That is a feature worth mentioning.

Yeah, probably worth mentioning, although I'm not really convinced of its value. 

Edited June 30, 2024 by Aapje

[FTC_Mephisto]

Does Il-2 BoX allow for specific aircraft telemetry output to be used to control force feedback across all of these products?

[Aapje]

Yes, although the Rhino software augments the default effects. My expectation is that the Moza will be lacking in this respect, at least at first.

[Aapje]

Added Brunner and updated/added a bunch of things for the others.

[Youtch]

It would be good to indicate which one went through a stress test.

 

VPRhino did, but Brunner for sure does not pass the test.

 

This is the most important factor, overheat and ability to sustain constant pressure for long time.

 

This is where good solution differs from bad ones.

[Aapje]

I was going to add that, but then I did some research and didn't actually find convincing evidence that the Brunner has a serious overheating issue. They also released a second version and made a bunch of improvements since release, so the early reviews may refer to the old version with different motors, old software and such.

 

But in general there is a real lack of even extensive amateur reviews of the Brunner base. People only really seem to review the Brunner yokes on Youtube. The situation for the Rhino is a bit better, but not that much better, as the reviews are still rather lacking.

 

But I will probably add some links to reviews a bit later. A Finn did some decent load testing of the Rhino. Not well edited, but still informative. And we should get some decent reviews of the Moza base, as they have already been sending them out to channels (although the channels that work well for marketing do not necessarily have the know how for a good review).

[GVL224]

It is also necessary to compare the maximum forces on the handles.

[Aapje]

3 hours ago, GVL224 said:

It is also necessary to compare the maximum forces on the handles.

I'll be happy to add those if someone measures them. It can be a bit complicated, if the default length of the stick socket differs per base. Then putting the same stick on two different bases, causes a different distance to the motors from the same position on the stick, so the forces will be different, even with equal motor strengths.

[GVL224]

5 минут назад, Aapje сказал:

I'll be happy to add those if someone measures them. It can be a bit complicated, if the default length of the stick socket differs per base. Then putting the same stick on two different bases, causes a different distance to the motors from the same position on the stick, so the forces will be different, even with equal motor strengths.

The FFBeast mechanics with 350-watt motors with a distance from the axis of the mechanics to the center of the handle is about 30 cm, approximately 20 kg!

[Panzerlang]

19 hours ago, Aapje said:

I was going to add that, but then I did some research and didn't actually find convincing evidence that the Brunner has a serious overheating issue. They also released a second version and made a bunch of improvements since release, so the early reviews may refer to the old version with different motors, old software and such.

 

But in general there is a real lack of even extensive amateur reviews of the Brunner base. People only really seem to review the Brunner yokes on Youtube. The situation for the Rhino is a bit better, but not that much better, as the reviews are still rather lacking.

 

But I will probably add some links to reviews a bit later. A Finn did some decent load testing of the Rhino. Not well edited, but still informative. And we should get some decent reviews of the Moza base, as they have already been sending them out to channels (although the channels that work well for marketing do not necessarily have the know how for a good review).

I bought my Brunner about a year ago, no idea which version it is but the thing cuts power after about 30/40 seconds of sustained-turn dogfighting. Total waste of money, time and effort. Probably a very good stick for MSFS but the lack of any kind of warning on their website about hard-use shut-down amounted to fraud imo.

[Aapje]

@GVL224

 

I already added the information you gave earlier. But both the Rhino and the FFBeast are a bit of an issue for me with them having different possible motors, but no clear branding to distinguish the power. It makes it hard to keep straight what power you can expect for what variant, unless you guys make that very clear.

 

@Panzerlang 

 

Can you check your purchasing records to see if it was the Mk II? If there is no Mk in your records, I have to assume that it is a Mk I and then I cannot just say that the Mk II has the exact same issue. The Mk II seems to have different motors and possibly other internal changes.

 

But it's hard to keep track of this with so little information being available. I prefer to leave things out if I am unsure that it is accurate.

[Panzerlang]

I've had a look, mine is the MK I.

I've looked at the MK II on their site and checked the FAQs, not a mention about over-heating shut-down. If it didn't still suffer from that I'd expect them to shout it very loud and clear, so buyer beware.

"Compared to the previous version the BRUNNER CLS-E MK II Joystick offers higher peak forces as well as higher stability & flexibility. Beside a Plug&Play TM HOTAS and Virpil grip interface (grip not included), it is also available with an A320 grip or a BRUNNER Jet grip."

Higher stability and flexibility, but no "doesn't crap out in combat". Lol.

They even boast how it has no fan: "No fan, very quiet, highly efficient". Until it craps out. Making a virtue of a deficiency, clever marketing babble.

[Aapje]

I've found simmers who are happy with it, although they may just be playing modern jets with much less sustained turning. Ideally, someone with a MK II would do some failure testing with various kinds of aircraft to see when it craps out and how it craps out, with the latest iteration of the device.

 

In any case, I decided against editorializing, so people can make up their own mind.

 

As for the fan, the FFBeast seems to do OK without a fan, due to the bigger motors. And the Rhino has been called quite loud when the fan is on. So the best may be to have an oversized motor and then to run (way) below max power. But I hope that we get a lot more 3rd party information/reviews, including from more serious youtubers, once the Moza and Winwing bases come out. The Brunner, Rhino and FFBeast don't have much of that. It is understandable that almost all regular buyers just want to go fly and don't want to spend the huge effort to make a serious review video. And I've not heard of anyone with two different units who can compare them.

 

Once the serious youtubers with larger channels the review units, preferably from both companies, we should hopefully get way more reviews. And these bases should also sell in far larger numbers, so there should also be more unprofessional reviews.

 

Hopefully at that point I can make a semi-standardized comparison of when the units overheat, how their overheat protection works, how loud they are, etc.

[Dagwoodyt]

I'm waiting for non-promotional Moza reviews before ordering. I am leery of reviewers who get test units for free. Also, constant use of terms like "full force feedback" by one YT'er seem questionable. It's always a good idea to look at the video's comments section, especially if the video seems very promotional.

[Aapje]

Yeah, some of the reviewers think that everything is awesome and some have little knowledge of what to look for.

[Dagwoodyt]

An issue needing careful consideration is that the greater the forces at play the greater the potential for serious injury in event of a mishap.

Edited July 4, 2024 by Dagwoodyt

[Youtch]

There is another manufacturer who just realised a ffb yoke who will produce a ffb joystick base as well.

 

Check:

 

[Aapje]

2 hours ago, Youtch said:

There is another manufacturer who just realised a ffb yoke who will produce a ffb joystick base as well.

 

I added them. Note that they are also making FFB rudder pedals and have just started selling a FFB yoke.

[Dagwoodyt]

 

[Aapje]

Apparently Winwing have said that their base has considerably stronger motors than the Moza base.

[GVL224]

we need to consider not only joysticks but also pedals...

[Aapje]

Not in this topic. Lets keep it focused.

[GVL224]

22 минуты назад, Aapje сказал:

Not in this topic. Lets keep it focused.

Will there be a separate topic on pedals with reviews from manufacturers?

[Aapje]

I have no plans to make one, but you are free to do so yourself.

[SR-F_Winger]

Hey mates. I hope noone minds if i point out that i have 2 of my VPForce Rhino DIY-Kits for sale. They are ready to ship.
Everything  to build the rhino in one evening is included except the separately at VPForce available motor and electronics kits.
PM for more information.
The kit comes for 399,- plus shipping. Wolrdwde shipping is possible.

[Youtch]

 

[Aapje]

Here is the Moza manual: https://image.gudsen.com/mozaracing/flight/MOZA AB9 FFB Base User Manual-min.pdf

 

And the dimensions:

 

[Youtch]

Is there be any test since the first presentation? I am very doubtfull it will work for ww2 plane requiring constant pulling.

[Aapje]

I haven't found any yet. I wouldn't be surprised if the people who got a preview unit are not allowed to do any more than an unboxing, since the software is most likely not yet done.

Edited July 24, 2024 by Aapje

[dgiatr]

On 7/24/2024 at 7:40 PM, Aapje said:

I haven't found any yet. I wouldn't be surprised if the people who got a preview unit are not allowed to do any more than an unboxing, since the software is most likely not yet done.

So I have two questions about Vpforce Rhino

 

1. Does it cutout or reduce its power after sustained wwii dogfight?

2. Any video or tutorial for adding thrustmaster grips?

 

Thanks

Edited July 28, 2024 by dgiatr

[Aapje]

@dgiatr

 

The Rhino has noisy fans that kick in a 50 degrees Celsius and will reduce its power if you really heat it up. It does not cut out.

 

Trustmaster is the default connector, so I don't know why you would need a tutorial. But you may want to use an extension.

 

But the better place to ask about these things is the discord, which you can find on the site: https://vpforcecontrols.com/

Edited July 28, 2024 by Aapje

[Youtch]

7 minutes ago, Aapje said:

The Rhino has noisy fans that kick in a 50 degrees Celsius and will reduce its power if you really heat it up. It does not cut out.

Is there any plan or way to replace the fan by a less noisy one?

[Aapje]

No idea. Again, on the Discord they can help you best with the details.

[dgiatr]

3 hours ago, Aapje said:

@dgiatr

 

The Rhino has noisy fans that kick in a 50 degrees Celsius and will reduce its power if you really heat it up. It does not cut out.

 

Trustmaster is the default connector, so I don't know why you would need a tutorial. But you may want to use an extension.

 

But the better place to ask about these things is the discord, which you can find on the site: https://vpforcecontrols.com/

1.Can anybody choose stronger motors? I see some possible choices in their site ordering form

2. All thrustmasters grips can be placed on vpforce rhino, even t16000m?