Forget the eye candy lets talk AI !

[silent_one]

One of my major frustrations with all the IL2 games was the AI. How could they get it so wrong . Especially when BOB2 wings of victory got it so right. With an AI that looked human and light years better than any of the IL2 iterations.

 

With a lot of threads about wanting new planes or maps or theaters. Others wanting every obscure bit of tedious engine management modeled.  Yet what we really need is a rockin good AI that can fight  ( and not cheat. eg snipers )  I dont want to see the konga dance of planes all in a line chasing one enemy. Or supernatural engine management of enemy planes. 

 

So what do people want another pretty game, but as lame as a civilian flight sim. Or something with some teeth.   With luck 777 might just pull this off. But Id like to hear more about it as a priority. Anyone got an opinion or some game facts to share? 

Edited August 1, 2013 by silent_one

[Panzerlang]

I've always been bemused that devs don't open up BOB2's AI code and see what makes it tick.

[352ndOscar]

I'd be happy to see an AI aircraft who know's its pretty well damaged, can't complete its mission, and turn for home instead of continuing on its way like nothing ever happened. Actually, I'd like the AI tied to the pilot and crew as well the aircraft....if the pilot is injured, turn for home and try to live another day....self-preservation, you know.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

I agree its up there with FM and DM in importance for a CFS.

[Panzerlang]

I'd be happy to see an AI aircraft who know's its pretty well damaged, can't complete its mission, and turn for home instead of continuing on its way like nothing ever happened. Actually, I'd like the AI tied to the pilot and crew as well the aircraft....if the pilot is injured, turn for home and try to live another day....self-preservation, you know.

 

I reckon if that could be done (easily) it would already be in RoF. I can think of no other reason for that absurd lack of realism in the enemy pilots' behaviour. Seems like it should be easy...

 

damaged:returnbase=1

 

Oh looky, I can code!

[FuriousMeow]

AI that works in one pretty typically won't work in another. FM differences, more complex DM, more complex ballistics, different environment creation methods.

 

The very absolute basics may be the same, but getting it to do anything is a very different matter in addition to the way it's coded may not be translatable to another language or engine.

 

AI isn't easy, the STALKER series had a helluva time with their ALife and ended up dumping a lot of it between Shadow of Chernobyl and it's final iteration Call of Pripyat.

Edited August 1, 2013 by FuriousMeow

[Uufflakke]

What we know till sofar about the AI (from the Q&A thread):

 

 

Secondly and very importantly: combat AI. Is there any plan to improve/change the RoF AI code for this project?

We have AI programmers and they will work on WWII AI for our engine. Faster planes, different performance and tactics with new types of vehicles etc. Work on AI is inherent to any new sim. Details on how it will change is unknown at this time.

 

Will the revised logic of AI? Namely simplification physics calculations for AI aircraft or other tricks in order to increase their number in the missions and to reduce the load on the processor.
AI pilots in BoS will fly on the same FM as the players, without any simplifications.

 

How will slightly damaged AI plane behave in the dogfight? Whether he would continue fighting and will chase the enemy or it will come out of the fight and will go to the nearest friendly airfield or at towards the frontline? Il-2 had a big problem with this but I don't know how this done in the ROF.
AI is able to make the decision to return to base. This is due to a number of different reactions, for example empty of ammunition, the loss of the lead aircraft or various damages. But not all damages are critical and sometimes AI can continue to fight even after being damaged. This logic is implemented and we'll only adjust it in the future.

 

 

[leitmotiv]

its nice to read Developer Diary ( http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/ ) from start, lot of questions we new guys to forum have are already answered days, weeks or months ago

[theOden]

Looking forward to "same FM" and see what it brings to my table.

Just had a rageQuit in 1946 flying for 25 minutes at 4000m in my Bf110G and arriving at target there comes 4 Russian planes at 5000 mph and zooming/turning/whatever while I struggle just to turn 2g at that altitude and lo'n'behold my plane is split in 2 within 20 seconds.

Need to stop doing this.

[gavagai]

Which version of 1946?  I think the AI is well done since 4.11.  It puts up a fight and no longer goes into rocket-climb mode (and it can actually hit deflection shots).

[Finkeren]

Since I mostly play flight sims offline, AI has always seemed to me the single most important aspect of a combat sim. 

 

I've never played BOB2 (though I did have a short, frustrating encounter with its predecessor) so I can't comment on the AI there, but it seems to me, that just about any CFS I've ever played has dropped the ball in one particular aspect: Lack of any simulation of self preservation. With the exception of European Air War (which had flawed AI in many other aspects) the AI is by far too agressive and will engage in and continue fights it has no chance of winning. Add to that the fact that even though most sims incorporate some kind of RTB-trigger, when an AI plane becomes sufficiently damaged/low on fuel or ammo, this almost always only apply to the individual aircraft. The AI goes into battle too readily and stays there for far too long.

 

The result is a ridiculous number of casualties in almost every engagement. In some sims this can go as far as one side wiping the other out completely in every single mission. This is bar none the greatest immersion-killer for me, and I honestly think developing AI that behaves remotely realistically on the tactical level should even take precedent over getting it to fly the aircraft well.

 

I understand that building a real tactical logic and a sense of self preservation into the AI is so complex as to be imposible in a sim that has to run on private PCs, but surely there are some smaller steps that can be taken to at least give the illusion of tactical awareness.

 

I'll give a short list of central problems, which I think have to be adressed for IL2-BoS to succeed as a single player game:

 

1. The AI needs to engage in combat less often. There are a couple of things that can remedy this. For starters, the AI should have a true FOV and have to be able to actually see an enemy in order to engage (this has been posible to model quite well in stealth games for over a decade, it's time we get it in a CFS) It should also be posible for the AI flight leader to do a very basic assesment of the tactical situation (friendly vs. enemy numbers, differences in altitude, speed etc.) before giving the order to attack (some of these parameters are already present in RoF, when the AI decides whether or not to pursue an enemy) In general an AI flight should only engage an enemy formation, that isn't its designated target if it has a substantial advantage and otherwise maneuver to avoid combat.

 

2. Air combats need to be less protracted. In most CFS' aerial combat engagements last way too long. The result is, that most fights invariably end up on the deck, regardless of how good the AI is at conserving energy, the flights become scattered over a huge area and casualties become ridiculously high. The AI needs to be able to disengage as a unit based on the tactical situation and the other side needs to allow for this and not pursue the nearest target aimlessly. No human flight leader would allow his unit to scatter in a protracted dogfight, so why should the AI? Not sure, how it can be done, but something must be posible without NASA technology. Even a simple timer limiting dogfights to ten minutes before the flights disengage and rally would be an improvement (though obviously far from ideal)

 

3. The AI needs to act as a group with whole units chosing to abort certain objectives or simply RTB when faced with insurmountable odds. One of the big annoyances in the old IL2 was the odd pair of fighters attacking large formations of escorted bombers, getting shot out of the sky almost instantly. Of course there needs to be an override for this depending on the mission. Escort fighters shouldn't abbandon their bombers just because a larger force of enemies come within range.

 

Solve these issues, and I'll consider IL2-BoS an immediate success, almost no matter how the rest of the sim turns out.

[Original_Uwe]

From your mouth to gods ears.

[LukeFF]

I'd be happy to see an AI aircraft who know's its pretty well damaged, can't complete its mission, and turn for home instead of continuing on its way like nothing ever happened. 

 

That feature is in ROF's career mode.

[Panzerlang]

That feature is in ROF's career mode.

 

It is? It's broken then.