EMG more realistic flak environment example missions

[Stonehouse]

I posted this in the AAA mod thread but it got buried quickly so adding it here for some better visibility so people perhaps try the two mods these missions are created from.

 

Personally I find the more realistic flak environment an exciting and immersive change that doesn't impact FPS significantly but realise people might be reluctant to try it due to fears about framerates.

 

The 3 attached EMG generated missions were created using the EMG More realistic AAA environment mod and require the Flak generator mod to be enabled on the host/server when playing the missions. I recommend the AAA mod is also used as the stock accuracy of AAA makes things suicidal and often results in the first flak burst killing the target aircraft. They cover the Battle of Caen period, Operation Cobra and the Falaise Pocket.

 

I've made the AAA skill competent in the example missions as that's to my taste when using the AAA mod but you can easily set this lower when generating the mission in EMG. Competent is normal skill. There is quite a difference between normal skill under the AAA mod and that skill using stock AAA.

 

I've made them co-operative dogfight missions just so you can try different things out as you can host these up and fly them yourself as a single player or with friends co-operatively. Plus, you can pick a new aircraft and keep going if you get shot down. There are AI flights around, so you won't find it empty. However, I did not add that many ambient aircraft or vehicles as I didn't have much time to check load balancing from a server point of view. The missions seemed to work fine for me but everyone's PC setup is different.

 

Currently getting a dedicated server to use mods itself is a bit complicated so if you're trying that let me know and I can explain the process. It's more than just ticking the use mods on the server settings. This just allows clients to use graphical mods like map retextures but won't let you use mods like AI Gunnery or the AAA mod on the server itself. Strangely mods work fine on the server when locally hosted, just not on a dedicated server.

 

Mods necessary are found in the very first post in the link below. You need the EMG more realistic flak environment mod enabled when creating the mission in EMG and the Flak generator mod enabled when flying the missions (or else you will not get the immersive flak barrages near ports etc). Other mods as your own choice. If using the enhanced mod pack however please enable the flak generator mod after the pack or it won't work.

 

 

EMG more realistic flak environment example missions.zip

Edited April 16, 2024 by Stonehouse

[Majpalmer]

Thanks!

[Stonehouse]

On 4/16/2024 at 12:18 PM, Majpalmer said:

Thanks!

 

I'd be interested in any feedback you have about the mods - I don't mean necessarily the missions as I knocked them up very quickly but just the general feel to the environment and how different it feels to the standard EMG mission in regard to AAA. Thanks.

[kraut1]

On 4/17/2024 at 10:50 AM, Stonehouse said:

 

I'd be interested in any feedback you have about the mods - I don't mean necessarily the missions as I knocked them up very quickly but just the general feel to the environment and how different it feels to the standard EMG mission in regard to AAA. Thanks.

Hi Stonehouse,

I made some first tests (with Monitor)

-I have installed at first the AAA mod and after that the generator:

-I did not changed the settings.

-the huge number of flak bursts is impressive, and, what is importent, it seems not to have a negative impact on FPS, at least for Monitor flown missions.

-with EMG setting competent and harmless the AAA is currently with the default settings from my point of view to dangerous. Even at 7000m  alt.

The density of bursts is really impressive, I suppose equivalent to a whole AAA regiment. (Triqueville area)

-when escort fighters are nearby, they attract at least 50%, sometimes maybe even 70% of the AAA fire. In this case, harmless could be okay and AAA not to dangerous.

 

Altogether seen a very impressive modification, but I suggest to reduce the default accuracy of the AAA guns. And I suggest if you do further tests to create missions without escorts, because they attract really a big part of the AAA fire.

 

And I did a VR test at the end too:

-On my 4.5 year old mid class gaming PC with Rift-S there was some impact on FPS, but still acceptable.

-I was able to fly frontal/head on attacks and hit bombers while being in the AAA fire.

-With VR the dense AAA fire is really impressive.

-On my computer / VR headset with the only balanced graphic settings I prefer the default heavy AAA effects.

-for my (old) computer system a reduction of the rate of fire of ca. 25% could be the optimum

test-missions.zip

[Stonehouse]

Thank you for the feedback - in stock official missions the gun crews are always low skill as there have been many historical complaints about AAA being too dangerous. Personally, I like the threat of competent crews at least for heavy AAA as it forces me to fly appropriately to avoid their fire. Light AAA at competent is fairly merciless however and if you are doing ground attack you will find it very challenging. I'm glad the performance was ok for you. I don't have VR yet (too$$ for me) so that feedback is very valuable, thank you.

 

The flak volume is not regimental, people underestimate how much flak was encountered in real life by pilots and crews attacking ground targets and transiting enemy airspace. As an example, according to my references, Triqueville airfield had 2 heavy batteries and 15 lights within a 4km radius of the field. This equates to between 8 and 12 88mm guns and 15 light/medium guns.

 

By comparison and as an fyi, a German mixed regiment (one of the most common) consists of 3 - 5 battalions and often one of the attached battalions was a searchlight battalion:

A typical mixed AAA battalion consists of:

• HQ (from our viewpoint this is mainly fire control with some light AAA and MG based defense and so doesn't matter)
• 3 HAA batteries consisting of between 4 or 6 guns per battery plus 2 20mm LAA per battery - so 12-18 88s plus 6 20mm light guns
• 2 LAA batteries where each battery consists of 12 20mm LAA plus 4 60cm searchlights or 9 MAA (37mm for example) plus 4 60 cm searchlights. So between 24 20mm guns and 18 37mm style guns and 8 searchlights

By the above a regiment, assuming an attached searchlight battalion, would have between 24 and 72 88s and if all 20mm LAA, 54 - 120 light 20mm guns. Plus 32 60cm searchlights (from the LAA batteries) and 27 150cm searchlights and sound locators etc. 

 

For fairly obvious reasons all militaries tend to make the smallest deployed unit a complete battery. 

 

So, you can see that in real life Triqueville has 2 HAA batteries and approx 1.5 LAA batteries in defense. There are quite a few airfields and ports with much heavier defenses than that. I deliberately did not add real life amounts of flak to the template due to performance fears and fears of ruining people's fun. However, I did try to make the defenses indicative of the real-life experience. 

 

Triqueville in the template has 3 88s and 6 20mm guns. I think if I placed the real-life number of guns people would not use the mod because it would be too hard even if the performance was not an issue. Truly thought provoking and scary when you consider the reality of what people flew into on both sides.

 

My guess is you probably got between the defenses of the ports of Trouville and Honfluer and experienced overlapping fire of both. That is the big difference between stock EMG and the mod. In stock EMG you only get flak at the objective and a small number of randomly placed single 88s - other than the actual objective you can fly anywhere with relative impunity from AAA. In the mod you will find AAA defending ports, railyards, airfields etc - ie the strategically important locations at all times. I've attempted to use historical references to place AAA and gauge how much AAA to place. You need to think about your route to the objective or where you patrol and where to fly and what to avoid. Note this works both ways - if you find yourself outnumbered retreating to a friendly flak zone can often save you.

 

 

Edited August 5, 2024 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

10 hours ago, kraut1 said:

default accuracy of the AAA guns

Just a follow up question - did you mean the flak generators or the real AAA? I know it is hard to tell so perhaps if you edit the mission and create one without real guns (so at the height you were flying at this would just be remove the flak 37s) and so be able to advise if you feel the flak generators need to be reduced in accuracy. If not then it implies that the real guns were too accurate in your experience and this could be just that the mission used competent skill. 

 

The flak generators are greatly reduced in accuracy compared to real flak already as well as the explosive damage of the flak generator bursts being hugely reduced. You pretty much need a direct hit to be damaged. However, admittedly there are a lot of bursts created by a flak generator.

 

Based on ROF a flak generator creates flak worth 24 guns (stock is 10 rounds per min flak generator is 240) so perhaps cutting that back to 18 guns worth will be an improvement. Give the attached version a try instead of the current mod and see what you think. 

Flak Field generator Kraut1.zip

 

 

Possibly I have overdone the number of flak generators in the template too.

 

 

PS Yes I know about the fighters taking all the flak. I've raised that point on the suggestions/bugs thread before that the priority should be against aircraft that can cause real damage to ground targets instead of escorts but so far no change. I can control priority for an aircraft gunner (currently heavy fighter, then fighter is their priority) but not AAA that I have found. Guessing it is hardcoded somewhere from Rise of Flight days as players were pretty much always in fighters when the series began I think. I usually test with A20s but I am probably also biased towards making things a bit challenging.

Edited August 5, 2024 by Stonehouse

[kraut1]

1 hour ago, Stonehouse said:

Just a follow up question - did you mean the flak generators or the real AAA? I know it is hard to tell so perhaps if you edit the mission and create one without real guns (so at the height you were flying at this would just be remove the flak 37s) and so be able to advise if you feel the flak generators need to be reduced in accuracy. If not then it implies that the real guns were too accurate in your experience and this could be just that the mission used competent skill. 

 

The flak generators are greatly reduced in accuracy compared to real flak already as well as the explosive damage of the flak generator bursts being hugely reduced. You pretty much need a direct hit to be damaged. However, admittedly there are a lot of bursts created by a flak generator.

 

Based on ROF a flak generator creates flak worth 24 guns (stock is 10 rounds per min flak generator is 240) so perhaps cutting that back to 18 guns worth will be an improvement. Give the attached version a try instead of the current mod and see what you think. 

Flak Field generator Kraut1.zip 13.12 kB · 0 downloads

 

 

Possibly I have overdone the number of flak generators in the template too.

 

 

PS Yes I know about the fighters taking all the flak. I've raised that point on the suggestions/bugs thread before that the priority should be against aircraft that can cause real damage to ground targets instead of escorts but so far no change. I can control priority for an aircraft gunner (currently heavy fighter, then fighter is their priority) but not AAA that I have found. Guessing it is hardcoded somewhere from Rise of Flight days as players were pretty much always in fighters when the series began I think. I usually test with A20s but I am probably also biased towards making things a bit challenging.

Thanks for your explanations and the revised version.

 

I will test it.

 

I would say there is the general question for which mission type we use the Flak:

-If the player is the leader of the AI flight accurate heavy AAA is interesting because he has to try to avoid being hit. And because the human player is intelligent he can try to avoid being hit.

 

-if the bomber flight is an AI flight, either to be protected by the player or to be intercepted by the player:

The AI bomber flight will not fly evasive maneuvers. In this case the heavy AAA fire shall not cause extreme casulties, because the main goal for the (human) player is to protect or shoot down the bombers with his fighter plane. For these missions the heavy AAA fire is very importent for immersion.

 

-Similar it is if the player is only a wingman and he has to stay in general in formation when the AI flight is engaged by Flak.

 

Added some minutes later:

Maybe the number of trucks in a AAA site to be reduced. They are sometimes very close to the light guns and sometimes being destroyed by them.

 

 

Edited August 5, 2024 by kraut1

[Stonehouse]

1 hour ago, kraut1 said:

Thanks for your explanations and the revised version.

 

I will test it.

 

I would say there is the general question for which mission type we use the Flak:

-If the player is the leader of the AI flight accurate heavy AAA is interesting because he has to try to avoid being hit. And because the human player is intelligent he can try to avoid being hit.

 

-if the bomber flight is an AI flight, either to be protected by the player or to be intercepted by the player:

The AI bomber flight will not fly evasive maneuvers. In this case the heavy AAA fire shall not cause extreme casulties, because the main goal for the (human) player is to protect or shoot down the bombers with his fighter plane. For these missions the heavy AAA fire is very importent for immersion.

 

-Similar it is if the player is only a wingman and he has to stay in general in formation when the AI flight is engaged by Flak.

 

Added some minutes later:

Maybe the number of trucks in a AAA site to be reduced. They are sometimes very close to the light guns and sometimes being destroyed by them.

 

 

 

No disagreement about lack of flak avoidance by AI. Another thing that needs improvement. Perhaps also try your mission with harmless skill? Flak generators are about 10 times less accurate than harmless with less damaging explosion.

[kraut1]

I will try later a new mission created with the new version of the generator (18guns).

Harmless I have already tried yesterday: at 7000m alt. over Triqueville we can expect 1 direct hit after ca. 2-3minutes in AAA fire.

I will do some further tests with the new version.

[Stonehouse]

1 hour ago, kraut1 said:

I will try later a new mission created with the new version of the generator (18guns).

Harmless I have already tried yesterday: at 7000m alt. over Triqueville we can expect 1 direct hit after ca. 2-3minutes in AAA fire.

I will do some further tests with the new version.

 

Ok - I might try to edit your mission from up above and remove real HAA from near Trouville/Honfleur and see what happens

[Stonehouse]

I ran the edited mission - all normal flak 37s removed so that there were only flak generators and light AAA (irrelevant in this instance) - using the current version of the flak generators (24 guns ROF per generator). The AI B26s all made it to target and dropped their bombs and during the run out to sea 2 aircraft were hit by flak generator flak bursts. One was a direct hit on a wing and even with the reduced damage from a flak generator shell it was enough to cause sufficient damage that a wing broke off shortly after the hit. The 2nd loss was a near miss that started a fuel leak that became an engine fire. Both times the crews bailed ok. I think that is fairly reasonable given the volume of flak. 

 

So, it seems like the real HAA guns need a tweak again to reduce their accuracy a little bit. I don't want them reduced to the point that they don't threaten human pilots though. Maybe in the end I will have to make a special version of the AAA mod to use with the flak generators, I really hoped not to have to do that.

 

I took off in the FW190 and then just let the autopilot fly while I watched the B26s. The interception didn't actually take place and the B26s got far enough out to sea that my mixed flight of 109s and 190s turned back.

 

Have a try and see what you think.  I'll give it a run with the 18gun version of the flak generators and see how that goes next.

 

modified test4 7000m Missions.zip

 

 

<edit> Hmmmm reran the mission with the 18 gun version. Lead B26 direct hit on the starboard engine within a few secs of mission start. Rechecking the flak generator mod I find I'd had forgotten that the mod does pay attention to skill settings. So higher skills do become more accurate even though to a lesser extent than real AAA. I think before I fiddle with the main AAA mod I'd better revisit flak generator accuracy. So don't worry about testing the 18 gun version for accuracy but if you can try it from a performance viewpoint that would be appreciated. Once I've adjusted accuracy hopefully you have time to do a few tests again. Thanks

Edited August 5, 2024 by Stonehouse

[kraut1]

3 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

I ran the edited mission - all normal flak 37s removed so that there were only flak generators and light AAA (irrelevant in this instance) - using the current version of the flak generators (24 guns ROF per generator). The AI B26s all made it to target and dropped their bombs and during the run out to sea 2 aircraft were hit by flak generator flak bursts. One was a direct hit on a wing and even with the reduced damage from a flak generator shell it was enough to cause sufficient damage that a wing broke off shortly after the hit. The 2nd loss was a near miss that started a fuel leak that became an engine fire. Both times the crews bailed ok. I think that is fairly reasonable given the volume of flak. 

 

So, it seems like the real HAA guns need a tweak again to reduce their accuracy a little bit. I don't want them reduced to the point that they don't threaten human pilots though. Maybe in the end I will have to make a special version of the AAA mod to use with the flak generators, I really hoped not to have to do that.

 

I took off in the FW190 and then just let the autopilot fly while I watched the B26s. The interception didn't actually take place and the B26s got far enough out to sea that my mixed flight of 109s and 190s turned back.

 

Have a try and see what you think.  I'll give it a run with the 18gun version of the flak generators and see how that goes next.

 

modified test4 7000m Missions.zip 1.47 MB · 2 downloads

 

 

<edit> Hmmmm reran the mission with the 18 gun version. Lead B26 direct hit on the starboard engine within a few secs of mission start. Rechecking the flak generator mod I find I'd had forgotten that the mod does pay attention to skill settings. So higher skills do become more accurate even though to a lesser extent than real AAA. I think before I fiddle with the main AAA mod I'd better revisit flak generator accuracy. So don't worry about testing the 18 gun version for accuracy but if you can try it from a performance viewpoint that would be appreciated. Once I've adjusted accuracy hopefully you have time to do a few tests again. Thanks

I have repeated the same test mission with VR that I used yesterday for the video, this time with the 18 guns version of the generator mod activated.

Graphic performance with is at  4000m okay, when I fly lower, ca.1500m over area with ground objects some negative impact on FPS but still playable.

Under consideration that my computer is old I think the graphic performance with generator is really good.

In this mission all guns have ailevel = 1 (harmless) and this time they were not to dangerous as far as I could see.

In the "after action report" some trucks, searchlights of AAA emplacements have been mentioned as destroyed by AAA.

test-mission.zip

 

[Stonehouse]

7 hours ago, kraut1 said:

In the "after action report" some trucks, searchlights of AAA emplacements have been mentioned as destroyed by AAA.

OK that would be a problem with placement of normal AAA in the generic template I would expect. The flak generators are single guns.

 

Hopefully get back with an updated version later this week of both template and generators.

[Stonehouse]

On 8/6/2024 at 9:18 AM, Stonehouse said:

OK that would be a problem with placement of normal AAA in the generic template I would expect. The flak generators are single guns.

 

Hopefully get back with an updated version later this week of both template and generators.

@kraut1

 

New beta versions to try if you have time. Assuming you do have time and think things improved I'll release them formally over in the AAA mod thread. Thank you again for your help. Hopefully I can make a start on the Rhineland template soon.

 

Generally, the changes were as discussed, ie make flak generator mod insensitive to AAA global skill so they are always "harmless" and update templates to attempt to stop/reduce truck and searchlight friendly fire kills and make them EMGv85 compatible.

 

Flak Field generator.zip

 

EMG More realistic AAA environment.zip

[kraut1]

On 8/7/2024 at 7:27 AM, Stonehouse said:

 make them EMGv85 compatible

 

Thanks, this means they are now already EMGv85 compatible.

I will make a test today with v85.

 

Added later:

for the realistic AAA inv. most importend are from my point of view as already mentioned the western fronts:

-Normandy

-Rheinland

and of course

+(EMG) Channel

 

Edited August 8, 2024 by kraut1

[kraut1]

Hi @Stonehouse,

I have tested your new settings with 4 missions with v85 (with the mentioned change/ bugfix in the flight_bombing / generic template).

-in 500m, 1000m, 4000m, 7000m altitude (4000,7000m only allied bomber flight, 500, 1000m allied + german bomber / attacker flight)

-EMG AAA harmless setting

-all missions AI flown

-in general, the settings were okay

-the casulties for AI flown missions comparable near to the front not more than ca.40km distance to front were acceptable, not to high.

-AI long range missions, ca. 2x100km behind the front have resulted in ca.70% casulties (mission in 7000m altitude, 12 plane bomber flight)

for a SP missions with player = leader this could be interesting, to fly evasive manovers. For AI for this long distance, especially at 7000m, the losses are for my point of view a bit too high.

-I am not sure, but it seems to me that the loss rates were more or less independently of the altitude.

-the uniform usage of the Flak38/39 for all nations is a matter of taste.

I myself fly during a career mission only with cockpit view. But after I have landed I like sometimes to observe the rest  / end of the mission with the F5 ground object view.

When doing this I would prefer to see the Flak38/39 only on the german side.

But in general I would say that the current settings work well!

 

At the end a small idea, I don't know if you like and don't know if it works:

 

Maybe for a test you or I could try a version of ONLY your AAA Mod with simplified AAA generators for general missions e.g: Pilot career, PWCG, standard EMG, Quick Missions:

-each heavy german, russian, us, uk heavy aa gun as a "light" aaa generator, only the rate of fire increased by factor 3x ... 4x / per heavy aa gun.

-either with the (not so good) default accuracy of the heavy aaa or adapted so that it is not too dangerous. And maybe with the default explosive charges.

 

Disadvantage: of course not so realistic in respect of the AAA unit sizes as you have simulated in detail.

 

Advantage:

-You have only to care for maintenance 1 or 2 additional versions of your AAA Mod.

-The mod could be used for EMG, PWCG, Pilot careers, Quick missions

 

0-test-missions.zip

 

 

ADDED LATER, ONLY FOR TEST:

Only your AAA mod, only these files modified, and standard EMGv85 mission:

typically in this way, similar as you did for the AAA generator:

AAAmod-heavy-aaa-mod.zip

(after test: rate of fire to be increased next time)

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2024 by kraut1

[Stonehouse]

10 hours ago, kraut1 said:

But in general I would say that the current settings work well!

 

Thank you!

 

10 hours ago, kraut1 said:

For AI for this long distance, especially at 7000m, the losses are for my point of view a bit too high.

It's a very difficult juggling act - if you make it easier for the AI then humans can very easily avoid HAA bursts. If you make it a reasonable but not overpowered threat for humans, the AI suffer fairly badly. The dev team really needs to address this - particularly for Korea where AA guns were more and more laid using radar - and give the AI some small basic flak avoidance. Even a variation of 5 or 10 % around the briefed altitude for the current leg of the flight plan would suffice. If you have time remove all flak_axis1 and flak_allied2 from your mission and rerun and see if you get the same results. If you do, then the root cause is the flak generators otherwise it is the actual heavy flak guns. This advises me where I need to tweak accuracy. Please keep both the edited and unedited version of the mission so they can be reused as test platforms.

 

10 hours ago, kraut1 said:

When doing this I would prefer to see the Flak38/39 only on the german side.

I know and take your point, but the alternative was to use the M1A1 or QF37 which would mean that either the US or UK would be without any heavy flak gun at all. Considering the organisational split between the 2nd TAF and the 9th Airforce I felt it would be odd to see UK guns at US LGs or vice versa. So, kind of the same thing really.

The German side has 2 HAA so I thought the best approach was to use their least used (close to the front where fighter bombers operate) gun as the flak generator. I could easily switch to using the flak 38/39 for Axis and either M1A1 or QF37 for allied flak generators as it is a simple change in the generic template plus 1 more gun definition in the flak generator mod. I place flak generators well outside normal places where players would see them for the most part as an attempt to avoid the case you describe. I will think about it though as probably it is less of an issue to have UK flak at a US held area or vice versa than German crews. Again, feedback is good so thanks.

 

10 hours ago, kraut1 said:

-each heavy german, russian, us, uk heavy aa gun as a "light" aaa generator, only the rate of fire increased by factor 3x ... 4x / per heavy aa gun.

-either with the (not so good) default accuracy of the heavy aaa or adapted so that it is not too dangerous. And maybe with the default explosive charges.

 

Very interesting idea. I hadn't gone that route as I was trying to preserve as much as I could the historical practical rates of fire but doing what you suggest would mean that careers and PWCG would gain flak volumes of fire that are more authentic. Unmodified EMG not so much. My biggest AAA related issue with stock EMG is that you only get flak at objectives (plus very minimal totally randomly placed single HAA guns), so you can fly over ports etc enroute to attack an objective without being subject to AAA fire. This is just flat out wrong in my opinion and creates a very false environment. So just modifying HAA guns would not be sufficient to give a better EMG. You have to alter the templates and place defenses where they logically should be. Locations such as ports, marshalling yards and airfields should always be defended and you should have to think about things carefully when you decide to fly over such a place to get to your objective. Certainly, real life flight planning considered such things and made a point of avoiding known flak concentrations wherever possible to do so without compromising the mission.

 

Stock AAA accuracy is too high especially for the initial bracketing shots. Hence the AAA mod which reduces accuracy and corrects some weapons (eg M1A1 has a ROF of 37 rounds per min in stock, in reality it was 22 - 22 is quite high for a 90mm gun anyway and is the highest ROF of any HAA in game - in fact the stock ROF may not need as much adjustment for your idea).

 

I would need to reduce effectiveness if the rate of fire was increased to simulate more flak guns. Probably they would need to be less accurate than in the AAA mod as the gun tends to a point to gain accuracy the more it fires at the same target. Possibly reduction in HE power of the explosions would also be needed. 

 

I will put together a prototype that fiddles the ROF and accuracy and you and I can see what we think about the results.

 

Edited August 10, 2024 by Stonehouse

[kraut1]

2 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

 

Thank you!

 

It's a very difficult juggling act - if you make it easier for the AI then humans can very easily avoid HAA bursts. If you make it a reasonable but not overpowered threat for humans, the AI suffer fairly badly. The dev team really needs to address this - particularly for Korea where AA guns were more and more laid using radar - and give the AI some small basic flak avoidance. Even a variation of 5 or 10 % around the briefed altitude for the current leg of the flight plan would suffice. If you have time remove all flak_axis1 and flak_allied2 from your mission and rerun and see if you get the same results. If you do, then the root cause is the flak generators otherwise it is the actual heavy flak guns. This advises me where I need to tweak accuracy. Please keep both the edited and unedited version of the mission so they can be reused as test platforms.

 

I know and take your point, but the alternative was to use the M1A1 or QF37 which would mean that either the US or UK would be without any heavy flak gun at all. Considering the organisational split between the 2nd TAF and the 9th Airforce I felt it would be odd to see UK guns at US LGs or vice versa. So, kind of the same thing really.

The German side has 2 HAA so I thought the best approach was to use their least used (close to the front where fighter bombers operate) gun as the flak generator. I could easily switch to using the flak 38/39 for Axis and either M1A1 or QF37 for allied flak generators as it is a simple change in the generic template plus 1 more gun definition in the flak generator mod. I place flak generators well outside normal places where players would see them for the most part as an attempt to avoid the case you describe. I will think about it though as probably it is less of an issue to have UK flak at a US held area or vice versa than German crews. Again, feedback is good so thanks.

 

 

Very interesting idea. I hadn't gone that route as I was trying to preserve as much as I could the historical practical rates of fire but doing what you suggest would mean that careers and PWCG would gain flak volumes of fire that are more authentic. Unmodified EMG not so much. My biggest AAA related issue with stock EMG is that you only get flak at objectives (plus very minimal totally randomly placed single HAA guns), so you can fly over ports etc enroute to attack an objective without being subject to AAA fire. This is just flat out wrong in my opinion and creates a very false environment. So just modifying HAA guns would not be sufficient to give a better EMG. You have to alter the templates and place defenses where they logically should be. Locations such as ports, marshalling yards and airfields should always be defended and you should have to think about things carefully when you decide to fly over such a place to get to your objective. Certainly, real life flight planning considered such things and made a point of avoiding known flak concentrations wherever possible to do so without compromising the mission.

 

Stock AAA accuracy is too high especially for the initial bracketing shots. Hence the AAA mod which reduces accuracy and corrects some weapons (eg M1A1 has a ROF of 37 rounds per min in stock, in reality it was 22 - 22 is quite high for a 90mm gun anyway and is the highest ROF of any HAA in game - in fact the stock ROF may not need as much adjustment for your idea).

 

I would need to reduce effectiveness if the rate of fire was increased to simulate more flak guns. Probably they would need to be less accurate than in the AAA mod as the gun tends to a point to gain accuracy the more it fires at the same target. Possibly reduction in HE power of the explosions would also be needed. 

 

I will put together a prototype that fiddles the ROF and accuracy and you and I can see what we think about the results.

 

concerning the usage of Flak38/39 for all nations: I read some posts in respect of warship / tank mods, that it could be possible to copy a ship or tank in a modification and to use different versions.

Maybe it could be possible to create a version of the Flak 38/39 for each nation with the corresponding artillery soldiers.

[Stonehouse]

1 minute ago, kraut1 said:

Maybe it could be possible to create a version of the Flak 38/39 for each nation with the corresponding artillery soldiers.

I'll see what I can do. Possibly you can substitute a different mgm file for the crew and it will look ok in practice.

[Stonehouse]

Definite possible improvement. Still have to test them but now I think each western front nation has its own flak generator at least from the editor's viewpoint.

 

[kraut1]

5 minutes ago, Stonehouse said:

Definite possible improvement. Still have to test them but now I think each western front nation has its own flak generator at least from the editor's viewpoint.

 

Great! Will be a huge improvement!

[Stonehouse]

Ok now one for every side. Going to update the generic template and see if they work. 

[Stonehouse]

@kraut1 Seems to work fine although I only was able to test the US, GB and GE ones right now. Unfortunately, the flak generator is now too large to host on the forum. I've uploaded it to mediafire for now.

 

Changes: Each nation now has its own flak generator, gun characteristics as per nation's gun in terms of rate of pitch and rotation, ranges etc but ROF, accuracy and explosion as previous flak generator. US=M1A1, GB=QF37, GE=Flak38/39, RU=52K

 

Generic template updated so that there is a flak_allied_5 and 6 so I can create separate GB and US flak generators using AAA_5 and AAA_6 helpers. Because of this it was needful to add a flak_axis_6 which is a clone of flak_axis_5 due to the Normandy template including the Battle of France - I want to be sure that if an AAA_6 helper is in Axis territory a flak generator gets created. I may need to add a flak_allied_7 and flak_axis_7 to allow for the RU flak generator, I'll think a bit more about that. I don't think I can get the EMG translations to work for it as the flak generators are no longer stock IL2 units.

 

Hope the link below works for you, it did for me. 

 

Have a go at creating some missions - watching the action in some of mine I am thinking I may reduce the generator ROF a little more but see what you think. If I do so, this may address your concern about AI and long length missions a bit.

 

https://www.mediafire.com/file/8smgtnxqly4sctf/Flak_Field_generator_for_each_nation.zip/file

 

 

EMG More realistic AAA environment.zip

 

 

<edit> PS will still look at making a prototype of your "light" version of HAA flak generators for career.

 

Edited August 10, 2024 by Stonehouse

[kraut1]

3 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

@kraut1 Seems to work fine although I only was able to test the US, GB and GE ones right now. Unfortunately, the flak generator is now too large to host on the forum. I've uploaded it to mediafire for now.

 

Changes: Each nation now has its own flak generator, gun characteristics as per nation's gun in terms of rate of pitch and rotation, ranges etc but ROF, accuracy and explosion as previous flak generator. US=M1A1, GB=QF37, GE=Flak38/39, RU=52K

 

Generic template updated so that there is a flak_allied_5 and 6 so I can create separate GB and US flak generators using AAA_5 and AAA_6 helpers. Because of this it was needful to add a flak_axis_6 which is a clone of flak_axis_5 due to the Normandy template including the Battle of France - I want to be sure that if an AAA_6 helper is in Axis territory a flak generator gets created. I may need to add a flak_allied_7 and flak_axis_7 to allow for the RU flak generator, I'll think a bit more about that. I don't think I can get the EMG translations to work for it as the flak generators are no longer stock IL2 units.

 

Hope the link below works for you, it did for me. 

 

Have a go at creating some missions - watching the action in some of mine I am thinking I may reduce the generator ROF a little more but see what you think. If I do so, this may address your concern about AI and long length missions a bit.

 

https://www.mediafire.com/file/8smgtnxqly4sctf/Flak_Field_generator_for_each_nation.zip/file

 

 

EMG More realistic AAA environment.zip 944.87 kB · 1 download

 

 

<edit> PS will still look at making a prototype of your "light" version of HAA flak generators for career.

 

Hi Stonehouse,

For today I have completed my tests:

-german US, UK flak generators are working, very good that now allied and german soldiers are shown!

 

-british flak generators and normal heavy aaa guns are combined with US searchlights

-allied aaa density seems at least in some areas extremly high, too dangerous:

AAA-Test-v85-4000m-allied-axis-us-target-bombers.zip

 

I think here was the AAA not strong enough:

AAA-Test-v85-4000m-allied-axis-uk-target-bombers.zip

I suggest for the next test

-after you have checked the AAA density

-after british aaa generators are combined with british searchlights

To reduce the rate of fire by ca. 20% for the next test.

But the flak generators for each nation are a huge improvement, thanks very much!

 

Edited August 10, 2024 by kraut1

[Stonehouse]

36 minutes ago, kraut1 said:

british flak generators and normal heavy aaa guns are combined with US searchlights

Yep my bad, I forgot to update them when I altered the template. Will fix.

 

36 minutes ago, kraut1 said:

-allied aaa density seems at least in some areas extremly high, too dangerous:

 

36 minutes ago, kraut1 said:

I think here was the AAA not strong enough:

 

Excellent feedback thank you, I'll revisit these areas and see what things look like. It may be that there are a lot of LGs with real flak in close proximity combining with flak generators around Saint Laurent sur Mer. The reverse around Evreux, I recall there is a lot of flak in that area in real life and I believe I erred towards playing it down for fear it would be too much. In reality I believe there were about 6 or 7 airfields in that location all within about 6 kms of each other, a mix of decoys and satellites as well as the main field at Evruex-Fauville. All had flak. For some reason the game map only shows 2. I don't know why considering this was pretty much the largest set of Luftwaffe bases around the time of the landing.

Edited August 10, 2024 by Stonehouse

[kraut1]

Maybe the high density of allied aaa is realistic.

When I flew my EMG Normandy " excel logbook career" german missions I created mostly low altitude ground attack / fighter sweep missions. So for me it would have been an interesting challenge to avoid the heavy aaa. But in some respect the the AI has to be considered too. I will create a low level mission and report.

[kraut1]

AI controlled Low level ground attack missions work with the current settings.

[Stonehouse]

Updated versions. Changes as discussed:

fix searchlights

 

add flak_allied_7 and flak_axis_7 (clone of flak_axis_5) to cater for the RU flak generator.

 

Evruex - Conches area reviewed and adjusted. FYI Conches should have a main airfield with 2 concrete runways plus 3 dummy/satellite fields within 3-4 km of the main field. Main field was a French prewar field and was upgraded by the Germans from 1941 onwards. It had lorenz plus permanent perimeter lighting. 1./JG2, 8./JG2 and III./SG4 flew from there. None of these are in game No real idea why particularly since it was quite a well-developed and used field. Evreux had the main field at Evreux-Fauville plus a dummy field 2km N of the main runway intersection (we have these) plus 6 satellite fields all within 5-6 kms of the main field (we don't have these). The main field was one of the principal bomber bases in Northern France plus an operating base for fighter units like JG2, JG3, JG5 and JG27 at various times.  1943 AAA defenses were 14 HAA plus at least 36 LAA including 6 flak towers. These defenses were heavily upgraded late 1943/early 1944 as the base became more important. I have added some additional real flak plus some generators to the Evreux-Conches area but did not increase light flak much at all as I believe from a game viewpoint it would be suicidal to attack/fly near Evruex at less than 3000-4000m if I did.

 

Reviewed the area around Saint Laurent sur Mer, I removed a few generators and repositioned some others in an attempt to create distinct zones of flak with small gaps in the open country between defended areas but from checking references this area was heavily defended either due to ports and railheads pre-invasion or ALGs and ports and rear areas for marshalling troops and supplies post invasion.

 

I have also reduced the ROF on generators so that a single generator is now roughly 6 HAA guns in equivalence. I say roughly because the M1A1 had a higher rate of fire in real life at 22 rpm whereas the other guns were about 20 theoretically (well 15ish in practice with a good crew).

 

Hopefully this time 😉

 

https://www.mediafire.com/file/x0n6apkft1qtc6a/Flak_Field_generator_for_each_nation.zip/file

EMG More realistic AAA environment.zip

Edited August 11, 2024 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

Note - Not really significant to your testing but I notice that I have picked up the stock m1a1 file and stock 52k file rather than the ones from the AAA mod. In my mod I have corrected a few values to what I understand are the correct values based on references I have. eg Pitch range of the m1a1 is -10 to 90 degrees in stock. In the AAA mod I have corrected this to 0 to 80. It does mean that if you spot no further issues and I release these new versions formally that you'll have to download the flak generator mod again rather than use the test version above.

Edited August 11, 2024 by Stonehouse

[kraut1]

21 minutes ago, Stonehouse said:

Note - Not really significant to your testing but I notice that I have picked up the stock m1a1 file and stock 52k file rather than the ones from the AAA mod. In my mod I have corrected a few values to what I understand are the correct values based on references I have. eg Pitch range of the m1a1 is -10 to 90 degrees in stock. In the AAA mod I have corrected this to 0 to 80. It does mean that if you spot no further issues and I release these new versions formally that you'll have to download the flak generator mod again rather than use the test version above.

Hi Stonehouse,

Thanks very much for the new version. It works well!

I have tested the new version:

-I corrected the EMG bomber and attack flight bug in the generic template (deleted forced complete from the count damages)

-tested a mission (AAA harmless, 4000m, no escorts) with allied AF attack nea Evreux and axis AF attck in the US sector. The german AFs have now sufficient heavy AAA and the allied AAA is a bit reduced as it was the intention.

-a further axis / allied low level (250m) test was done too and it worked.

-UK aaa generator now combined with a "power generator"? see video minute 2:09

But this is only a small detail easy to fix for you.

-Altogether seen the AAA Generator, Environment combined with the AAA mod seems to be now well balanced (test with EMG AAA harmless) with the option to encrease AAA to competent / dangerous. Together with escort fighters (who attract minimum 50% of the AAA fire) maybe competent better but this was not checked

 

I will have to care now for some other tasks. After next weekend I can do some further tests if required.

 

test-mission.zip

CoopTemplate_GENERIC_bomber_attack_flight_corrected.zip

 

Test Video, only for information, many AAA shown by fast clicking F5.

 

[Stonehouse]

4 minutes ago, kraut1 said:

I will have to care now for some other tasks. After next weekend I can do some further tests if required.

 

No problem and thank you very much for your time and very useful comments. I'll sort out the last few things and release the two mods I think

[Stonehouse]

On 8/10/2024 at 3:25 AM, kraut1 said:

Maybe for a test you or I could try a version of ONLY your AAA Mod with simplified AAA generators for general missions e.g: Pilot career, PWCG, standard EMG,

@kraut1

First attempt at the "light" flak generator idea. Not really EMG related but as the discussion began here it is probably just as easy to continue here.

 

Explanatory note, as generally in real life flak was deployed at the smallest organisational unit of battery level and as generally all nations used 4 guns as a battery (Germany went to 6 guns by the later years of the war) I've altered the ROF so that a single gun represents approx. 4 guns as most IL2 missions in career or quick place only 1 or 2 HAA guns at a location. PWCG is similar. So using this mod means that 1 gun = 1 btty etc. I believe stock missions and PWCG all use low skill by default.

 

Tentatively I have left the explosive strength of the shells as stock but used the gunner definition from the AAA mod. I've tried a few quick missions and from the players viewpoint you get a better flak field although nothing like the flak generators we've been testing in EMG. FPS don't appear to suffer.

 

I'm kind of expecting you to say they are too deadly so I will start to look at the shell side of things. I did try the flak generator gunner but it was so inaccurate with the lower volume of fire that it made HAA no longer a credible threat. Possibly some accuracy point between the flak generator and the AAA mod but preserving the ability to up their skill if desired is where it will end up. Possibly lowering the damage would remove the need for lowering accuracy.

 

Anyway, try it when you have time and let me know what you think. You must install the AAA mod before this one as it uses the gunner definition. If it ends up with a custom gunner def then this dependency would go away.

 

 

Simulated flak fields for PWCG and Career-install after AAAmod.zip

 

Edited August 12, 2024 by Stonehouse

[kraut1]

1 hour ago, Stonehouse said:

@kraut1

First attempt at the "light" flak generator idea. Not really EMG related but as the discussion began here it is probably just as easy to continue here.

 

Explanatory note, as generally in real life flak was deployed at the smallest organisational unit of battery level and as generally all nations used 4 guns as a battery (Germany went to 6 guns by the later years of the war) I've altered the ROF so that a single gun represents approx. 4 guns as most IL2 missions in career or quick place only 1 or 2 HAA guns at a location. PWCG is similar. So using this mod means that 1 gun = 1 btty etc. I believe stock missions and PWCG all use low skill by default.

 

Tentatively I have left the explosive strength of the shells as stock but used the gunner definition from the AAA mod. I've tried a few quick missions and from the players viewpoint you get a better flak field although nothing like the flak generators we've been testing in EMG. FPS don't appear to suffer.

 

I'm kind of expecting you to say they are too deadly so I will start to look at the shell side of things. I did try the flak generator gunner but it was so inaccurate with the lower volume of fire that it made HAA no longer a credible threat. Possibly some accuracy point between the flak generator and the AAA mod but preserving the ability to up their skill if desired is where it will end up. Possibly lowering the damage would remove the need for lowering accuracy.

 

Anyway, try it when you have time and let me know what you think. You must install the AAA mod before this one as it uses the gunner definition. If it ends up with a custom gunner def then this dependency would go away.

 

 

Simulated flak fields for PWCG and Career-install after AAAmod.zip 15.49 kB · 0 downloads

 

Great, I will start testing next week.

[kraut1]

Hi @Stonehouse,

I have started to work on a new Map / EMG Mod Kurland45/45 (Courland Pocket 44/45).

And during mission tests I have your

"Simulated flak fields for PWCG and Career-install after AAAmod"

Mod activated. Here the first video. It works well with EMG!

I will do next week a test with a campaign mission too.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2024 by kraut1

[Stonehouse]

2 hours ago, kraut1 said:

Hi @Stonehouse,

I have started to work on a new Map / EMG Mod Kurland45/45 (Courland Pocket 44/45).

And during mission tests I have your

"Simulated flak fields for PWCG and Career-install after AAAmod"

Mod activated. Here the first video. It works well with EMG!

I will do next week a test with a campaign mission too.

 

 

 

Thanks for looking at it.

 

I noticed according to the video title you were using competent skill for the AAA?  Is that right? 

 

If so then probably there is no need to alter the explosion strength or create a custom gunner as it looked fairly good from a lethality viewpoint. ie Dangerous but not overly bad.

 

It'll be interesting to see what you think of the career missions where the skill is always low.

 

I've made a start on the Rhineland realistic flak env template, but I think it will take a while due to the size of the map and number of towns.

Edited August 17, 2024 by Stonehouse

[kraut1]

2 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

 

Thanks for looking at it.

 

I noticed according to the video title you were using competent skill for the AAA?  Is that right? 

 

If so then probably there is no need to alter the explosion strength or create a custom gunner as it looked fairly good from a lethality viewpoint. ie Dangerous but not overly bad.

 

It'll be interesting to see what you think of the career missions where the skill is always low.

 

I've made a start on the Rhineland realistic flak env template, but I think it will take a while due to the size of the map and number of towns.

I have just started with testing.

By default I will use harmless but from time to time compentent / dangerous (EMG).

Career I will test too, either this weekend otr next week.

Concerning Rhineland: I am currently modifying the GUI Map and EMG to 44/45 eastern front.

Preliminary version is already working.

[kraut1]

Hello @Stonehouse,

I have a question not directly related to your AAA Mod:

Is it possible to change the relative position of the AAA gun crew members to the gun?

For my German Destroyer Mod I would like to use more 3.7mm Flaks, but 2 crew members are really far away from the gun rotating axis:

The 20mm Flak Vierling is much more easy to install:

[Stonehouse]

1 hour ago, kraut1 said:

Is it possible to change the relative position of the AAA gun crew members to the gun?

I haven't downloaded the German DD mod so I'm not sure how you are substituting different guns. The main ship definition gives x,y,z co-ords for turret attachment points but I don't see anything in a ship turret definition that would allow you to move one of the gunners around. 

 

Is the mod separate or bundled with something else?

[kraut1]

1 hour ago, Stonehouse said:

I haven't downloaded the German DD mod so I'm not sure how you are substituting different guns. The main ship definition gives x,y,z co-ords for turret attachment points but I don't see anything in a ship turret definition that would allow you to move one of the gunners around. 

 

Is the mod separate or bundled with something else?

Thanks,

The Turret position is not the problem. I can modify this as required.

My question is if it is possible to move e.g. the bot gun commander and the kneeing soldier closer to the gun?

This is not related to the ship. I suppose it is defined for the e.g.: Flak 36 turret/ attachment  in general.

But I did not find the coordinates for the single bot soldiers.

Edited August 19, 2024 by kraut1

[Stonehouse]

2 hours ago, kraut1 said:

My question is if it is possible to move e.g. the bot gun commander and the kneeing soldier closer to the gun?

 

Yep I understood. Unfortunately, I don't see anything like that in the lua files for flak guns. Closest you get for artillery pieces (which include flak) are the references to the bots you see running away when the gun becomes critically damaged or destroyed. Even there no co-ordinates are given just the bots are nominated. I can only assume the crew positions are part of the 3d model of the gun and its animation.