Star Citizen

[56RAF_Roblex]

I put in $40 or the UK equivalent and I got something I could play with and that has been steadily getting better.   I have payed similar amounts for games that I played through to the end and will never touch again but SC will continue to improve & expand.   I have not played it for a while because I am deep into BoX and cannot give my attention to more than one game at a time but I am content to wait as the expense was written off years ago and I am not intending to pay for the additional expansions yet.

[RedKestrel]

Incoming rant! This whole thing is kind of a living example of the problems of over-promising, mission creep, and the sunk costs fallacy. Its fascinating and like a car wreck I can't look away from.

I remember when I first heard this was in development. At the time I had a crappy laptop and had just bought the original Wing Commander games in a bundle off of GOG. Looking at the game and what was promised, I was sorely tempted to buy in but did not. I couldn't justify laying down money in a pre-order for a game. Instead, when I was done with the Wing Commander games I picked up Il-2 1946 on GOG (I had played it a bit way back when it was first released and never gotten good at it) and suddenly I was back into flight sims.

At the outset there was the hype, and then inevitably the skeptics, and of course after that the anti-skeptics. I tried to reserve judgement and I figured worst case scenario I would pick it up once it came out for full price.

Every once in a while I dip my toe into the news on this one to keep track of it. My cautious optimism on this one is basically gone.

The planning for this game is basically non-existant. It looks like the kind of game design you get when you have a bunch of 12-year-olds around a table saying "Wouldn't it be cool if you could land the space ship, and then jump out and fight some aliens with a laser gun??" Like, yes, my inner 12 year old thinks that would be really cool. My outer middle-aged dude says "hold on, that is a completely different game requiring completely different animations, programming, and design, and meshing them together seamlessly would be crazy difficult." 

Roberts is very clearly an 'ideas' man. Possibly unpopular opinion here: You never want the ideas guy holding the purse strings. You want the ideas guy to pitch you a fantastic game, then you want the realists to pin him down so that he doesn't fly off the handle and try and make every idea at once. The pitch for Star Citizen is basically "Make a space sim, a flight sim, a first person shooter, a persistent MMO with dynamic economy, and an immersive single-player experience, and do this using an engine optimized for FPS with all the limitations thereof". Its a gamer's wet dream and a project manager's nightmare.

It got the support it did because, as one poster above put it, it was selling the dream. It was tapping into all the nostalgia of the original Wing Commander games. It was seizing on the gamer/simmer's penchant to always imagine a better game, to look at it and say "how hard could it be? X did it before!". Everything would be epic all the time , and all we needed to do was just ignore the 'haters' and industry shills who were saying it didn't look feasible. The money rolled in because nobody was there to tamp down the enthusiasm, and it formed a feedback loop where more enthusiasm generated more money, which generated more features promised for the game, which generated more enthusiasm, which generated more money. Its the perfect example of irrational exuberance. If they had stopped adding features and delivered the original promise the game would probably be out by now.

For what its worth, I don't think this is a scam or a con. I think that Roberts bought into his own hype, the funding and freedom went to his head, and now there's nobody at the top who wants to face the facts. He got the chance to make the game he always wanted to make, and nobody was going to stop him. A million people are throwing money at him telling him he's a visionary. Fans who are invested to the tune of hundreds or thousands (!) of dollars will defend even the most egregious of sins.

Some say that surely there will eventually be a functioning Squadron 42 game and a functioning MMO, even if the features promised aren't there. I would say that this point is massively debatable. The game has already been developed for 7 years. There is only one star system available and its not complete, instead of 100. How are they going to put together 99 more? If there are tools to develop systems more quickly, why aren't they using them right now? Promised game mechanics are either half working, not working, or a twinkle in Roberts' eye. Half of the promised ships are not completed. The single player game is not out despite 5 years of delay. They add new proposed features at a higher rate than they complete ones they promised already.

Now take this: The game has upwards of 500 people working on it - CIG has no other products that I am aware of and therefore no cash flow. The Forbes article someone linked above says their annual wages paid out is $30,000,000. They have five different offices that have to be maintained. They have to buy equipment and keep it running. They have to license software and engines, pay for servers to deliver game updates, pay lawyers, accountants and other fees associated with running a business. They have to pay for marketing. If they are burning through less than 50,000,000 dollars per year I would be shocked. They raised $200,000,000 over the course of the seven year development from crowdfunding. They recently got an investment from some billionaire (apparently for more marketing?) at 46,000,000 dollars. All this basic math adds up to the fact that, barring even more massive outside development, they've got a year or two left before they run out of money. They've got well over 2 years of development left to go. Where does the money come from?

Roberts himself says that if they run out of money, they can finish Squadron42 and the sales from that will bankroll the rest of Star Citizen. But at this point, with a million backers, how many people are left who will buy the game who haven't already pre-ordered it? Probably very few. If you sell the game at $60, you need to sell 500 000 copies just to cover one year of developer salaries, not to mention all the other costs. Realistically, they'd need to sell a million copies or more to get another year of development time for Star Citizen. That's pretty big sales for a relatively niche game. Possibly the biggest issue with selling Squadron 42 as a stand-alone product is the fact that their license from Crytek only covers Star Citizen, and they are currently being sued by Crytek for trying to sell a second game developed on that engine. Either they won't be able to use that engine, or they'll have to settle with Crytek. So more money, more legal fees, and possibly more delays for the game.

And what about long-term support? How are they going to run the servers for the persistent universe? Are they going to charge a subscription fee? Because otherwise they'll have to rely on revenue from new players. And once again, they have the problem that most of the people who will want to play the game have already purchased it. Imagine what happens if Star Citizen finally launches, after nearly a decade of hype, and the servers only run for a year before being shut down. Maybe there's a horde of people waiting for the full game to launch but I have my doubts.

What I think is actually going to happen is they are going to run out of money, dump whatever content they have done onto their player base, then say they've completed the game and walk away. You'll have two half finished buggy games with a tenth of the content promised at a cost of 250 million dollars.

Anyway, no matter what happens its certainly going to be interesting to watch. Someone is going to write a doctoral thesis on this whole thing one day, one way or another.

[simfan2015]

Wow RedKestrel, that's one helluva an assessment !

I am even afraid you are ... right at this.

That means I won't be able to buy SC or S42 anytime soon for like 6 USD ? (yeah, "Everspace" was on sale at steam).

Oh well ... we Flight-Simmers are buying +1.000 USD Nvidia RTX cards, 5000 USD gear for DCS & IL-2 anyway ... so let's all donate some more cash to Chris Roberts shall we ?

I would still pay quite some money (really, no joke) to be able to get into the Squadron 42 cockpit after all this excitement ... just to find out if it was all worth it !

But that's just me, YMMV for sure !

 

 

Edited July 23, 2019 by simfan2015

[RedKestrel]

57 minutes ago, simfan2015 said:

Wow RedKestrel, that's one helluva an assessment !

I am even afraid you are ... right at this.

That means I won't be able to buy SC or S42 anytime soon for like 6 USD ? (yeah, "Everspace" was on sale at steam).

Oh well ... we Flight-Simmers are buying +1.000 USD Nvidia RTX cards, 5000 USD gear for DCS & IL-2 anyway ... so let's all donate some more cash to Chris Roberts shall we ?

I would still pay quite some money (really, no joke) to be able to get into the Squadron 42 cockpit after all this excitement ... just to find out if it was all worth it !

But that's just me, YMMV for sure !

 

 

As I said, its fascinating, and great to produce the various "what if" scenarios of how this could all shake out. 

[Gambit21]

16 hours ago, simfan2015 said:

.. in due time and I will buy it then for sure.

Keep the faith.

Stefaan  

 

See bolded, underlined word below.

 

in due time

 idiom

Definition of in due time

 

: eventually at an appropriate time - I will answer all of your questions in due time.

[Urra]

10 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

Incoming rant!  

If they don't earn 300+mil from SQ42 release then the persistant universe side won't get finished.. It seems that is what they are planning since currently 80% or more of the work is focused on sq42. They will use everything up just making sq42 and use the profits to take them to finish line on PU.  

[simfan2015]

Oh, the ever expanding (?) "persistent universe" myth !?

+1000 fully populated star systems etc. etc.

IMHO if all this is not entirely procedurally generated, how many people would have to kina 'handcraft' such an incredibly vast system ?

I know of procedurally generated No Man's Sky a.o. but that kind of universe was not quite what it was meant to become, was it ? 

If they can finish SQ42 (build upon what they have up till this point) that would at least mean something.

Going by the videos I have on Youtube around SC and S42 I am personally almost convinced at least S42 could become

 the ultimate Space shooter/adventure game !

SC too, if they limit the scope asap.

Thus indeed ... in due time ? ?

 

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by simfan2015

[RedKestrel]

7 hours ago, TunaEatsLion said:

If they don't earn 300+mil from SQ42 release then the persistant universe side won't get finished.. It seems that is what they are planning since currently 80% or more of the work is focused on sq42. They will use everything up just making sq42 and use the profits to take them to finish line on PU.  

 

 

5 hours ago, simfan2015 said:

Oh, the ever expanding (?) "persistent universe" myth !?

+1000 fully populated star systems etc. etc.

IMHO if all this is not entirely procedurally generated, how many people would have to kina 'handcraft' such an incredibly vast system ?

I know of procedurally generated No Man's Sky a.o. but that kind of universe was not quite what it was meant to become, was it ? 

If they can finish SQ42 (build upon what they have up till this point) that would at least mean something.

Going by the videos I have on Youtube around SC and S42 I am personally almost convinced at least S42 could become

 the ultimate Space shooter/adventure game !

SC too, if they limit the scope asap.

Thus indeed ... in due time ? ?

 

 

The big issue with scope reductions or banking on SQ42 to finish the project is that the kickstarter backers were told the project was fully funded, and that Star Citizen would be completed on that budget alone. That is clearly not going to happen. 300 mil in sales for SQ42 is in my mind optimistic. Elite sold 3 million units or so over five years - SQ42 would have to sell something like 5 or 6 million to generate that revenue. Are there that many more space simmers out there wanting a single player game and with the hardware to run it?

And, of course, the lawsuit going on right now puts SQ42's fate in doubt. Launching it as a separate, standalone game violates their contract with CryTek on its face. the same for StarCitizen - they promised they would exclusively use CryTek's engine for the game but they have spoken openly about using Lumberyard from Amazon. They'll probably end up settling for a big sum but so far they haven't settled it. 

[simfan2015]

I am pretty sure that if they would be forced to use a different game engine than SC it would be almost impossible to develop in a limited time and also more difficult to maintain.

My guess is that the Dev team(s) are focussed and are familiar with ony/primarily the existing SC engine. If not used it would surely mean a lot more money and resources !!!? 

[Brano]

Obviously Mr.Roberts is a poor project manager. Untill he steps out from this position, things won't change.

[AndyJWest]

20 minutes ago, Brano said:

Obviously Mr.Roberts is a poor project manager. Untill he steps out from this position, things won't change.

 

The only problem is that Roberts isn't accountable to anyone, and is clearly incapable of recognising his own failings. If CIG was a regular company with outside investors providing the majority of the funding, he could be moved aside, as has happened in the past.

[SYN_Haashashin]

As far as I see it.. they need a Han in their lives ??? Worked with several project managers and he is simply a genius at his work.

 

Haash

[Gambit21]

3 hours ago, Brano said:

Obviously Mr.Roberts is a poor project manager. Untill he steps out from this position, things won't change.

 

Yep

[Lusekofte]

On 7/22/2019 at 9:12 PM, AndyJWest said:

 

the majority of which I suspect have written off their 'investment' as a dead loss.

Aye thats me but I have to say I felt it was expencive. 

I think I bought in for close to 200$ , maybe less

but not by far

 

[Feathered_IV]

Interesting stuff.  Particularly the Forbes article and RedKestrel's breakdown of the situation (thanks for putting that together).  I had no idea that RSI so dysfunctional.  

 

I reinstalled Elite Dangerous the other day after a couple of years.  It looks like development has finished, but the gameplay has improved somewhat over what I remember.  Still feel like a wheelchair-bound space farer though, and wish I could just get out and stretch my legs a bit.  

[Herne]

5 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

Interesting stuff.  Particularly the Forbes article and RedKestrel's breakdown of the situation (thanks for putting that together).  I had no idea that RSI so dysfunctional.  

 

I reinstalled Elite Dangerous the other day after a couple of years.  It looks like development has finished, but the gameplay has improved somewhat over what I remember.  Still feel like a wheelchair-bound space farer though, and wish I could just get out and stretch my legs a bit.  

 

Elite Dangerous so far as I am aware, does plan to include Space Legs at some point. There are some early Dev Diaries, with David Braben talking about such aspirations. "Big Game Hunting", "EVA", "Boarding" etc.

In the end I expect SC if it ever gets finished, and ED to be remarkably similar in terms of game play loops.

I prefer ED's approach, where they build the game around the core experience, space flight and combat, then expand the features from there, rather SC's approach of trying to build everything all at once, it is inefficient, many things have had to be reworked, ship systems are still place holders there is no persistence, and as it stands its just a bug ridden mess.

[56RAF_Roblex]

2 hours ago, ACG_Herne said:

I prefer ED's approach, where they build the game around the core experience, space flight and combat, then expand the features from there, rather SC's approach of trying to build everything all at once, it is inefficient, many things have had to be reworked, ship systems are still place holders there is no persistence, and as it stands its just a bug ridden mess.

 

I loaded up SC after not looking at it for a few years and I have to agree with most of your points.   I had forgotten just how buggy it was and that is outrageous when you consider how long they have been developing it.   I agree that they do need to sit down and draw a line on new development, even for just a temporary period, and concentrate on making what they have work without bugs.    I suspect that is not as straightforward as it sounds because of the way that everything is compartmentalised with separate specialised teams.   Deciding not to work on certain aspects for a while could mean whole teams or departments being made redundant as their skills wont be useful in fixing the bugs in other areas.    With this in mind you an alternative to redundancy might be  telling those people to just carry on with what they are doing but then when they complete projects you end up with new functions needing to be integrated while you are supposed to be in lockdown bug-fixing.

 
Where I do not agree completely is the thought that SC should have just focused on spaceflight & combat like Elite and only looked at walking around later.   This is the heart of what makes SC unique when you think of it ie the fact that you can walk from your sleeping cabin to your ship and walk around inside the larger ones or that you can get out in space and enter derelict shipwrecks or stations and investigate them inside & out.  SC is a simulation of living in a future that includes space travel,  not just a simulation of being in a space ship.   Walking around the stations & cities & bases to buy things and get contracts and as part of fulfilling contracts is a major part of what SC is about.    How many pilots in flight sims have not though at some time 'Wouldn't it be cool if I could actually run from the ready-room to my warmed up aircraft and climb inside instead of just spawning in the seat? or 'I wish that at the end of a sortie I could climb out and walk to debriefing to see my results' or 'If I had to bail or crash land in enemy territory it would be nice if I could run for the trees instead of having a random number generator decide if I had been captured or not (though stealing a vehicle to drive home is going too far!)' .    If someone had a flight sim *nearly* as good as BoX but with some level of out-of-the-plane functionality as well then I could be tempted away though it would have to add to the experience rather than just being cool eye-candy.   

 

The problem with SC though is that it is the equivalent of a combat flight sim that has more bugs than the early Cliffs Of Dover and nobody is fixing them because they are too busy modelling more realistic toilets in the local pub and more models of cars to get you there. ?

[simfan2015]

It's not really constructive to rant but in general I, personally, am not too eager to have everything in 1 game because it makes the whole game a mess and/or extremely complicated. Some people seem to be able to cope with some 300 key combinations but I can not. As another poster wrote here... accessibility... To me that is true fun and that is what gaming is about... for me znyway. SC and ED are a no go, SC42 will hopefully remain... Playable!? I hope il-2 won't get more complicated then it is now. That's what I like most about it! DCS World has become many games in one too and ED knows it and will split it. MAC will be arcade oriented. Another example was Apache air Assault that did not sell enough because it was neither arcade nor sim! SC... has or might turn into a monster, requiring a ninja pc and scientific knowledge to use it. 

Edited July 28, 2019 by simfan2015

[Trooper117]

10 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

I reinstalled Elite Dangerous the other day after a couple of years.  It looks like development has finished, but the gameplay has improved somewhat over what I remember. 

 

Funnily enough, I found myself firing it up again last week, and although I had Horizons as well, had never played that side of it...

With recently bought Everspace in the sale and Elite/Dangerous back on the boil I'm back into space sims again!

[Herne]

have you checked out Infinity Battlescape @Trooper117 ?

Seems to be coming along nicely
 

 

[Tyberan]

SC suffers from bloated feature creep, why they are adding medic ships, spy ships, touring ships is beyond me I don't see how these "career" paths in the game would warrant the resources to included them considering it's basically an mmo and most of the players are just greifers anyway. 

 

I've bought into it and I've got 2 ships. The reliant Kore which is useless as a cargo ship and the superhornet which is bugged and also useless. So I don't play it much 

[simfan2015]

Infinity Battlescape indeed seems *impressive* ... to say the least !

But it's MMO only  (no single player, mission generation...)>

Makes it an enhanced shooter (because that is the only thing that makes sense ... in MP people just like to shoot at each other).

IL-2 is so much more (history accurate etc).

If it gets out before SQ42 (won't be all that difficult I'm afraid) and it somehow delivers on it's promises (space as well as planetary battle a.o.) then I am sure to get it on Steam EA !

Thanks for pointing this out to us ACG_Herne !!!  

Edited July 28, 2019 by simfan2015

[Trooper117]

Herne... good catch, I don't know how this slipped under my radar!

Been watching the videos, it looks awesome.

Not sure about the MP only bit, but am sure at some stage I will have to play it!

 

Edit... found out there is to be an offline sandbox mode for the game!

 

 

Edited July 28, 2019 by Trooper117

[simfan2015]

Infinity : Battlespace ... STRANGE ! ??? ...

In 4 years this game seems to have gone backwards !?

This Trailer from years ago shows an incredible spaceship cockpit.

OTOH the latest video from tha Asteroid Backer Even shows IMHO a simple 3D simplified overlay (?), not that nice fully textured 3D cockpit from years ago !

I hope I am mistaken, but the footage that appeared 4 years ago ... might have been pre-rendered CGI cut scenes (that might have been taken from any SF movie), not a real time game engine !?

[Herne]

1 hour ago, simfan2015 said:

Infinity : Battlespace ... STRANGE ! ??? ...

In 4 years this game seems to have gone backwards !?

This Trailer from years ago shows an incredible spaceship cockpit.

OTOH the latest video from tha Asteroid Backer Even shows IMHO a simple 3D simplified overlay (?), not that nice fully textured 3D cockpit from years ago !

I hope I am mistaken, but the footage that appeared 4 years ago ... might have been pre-rendered CGI cut scenes (that might have been taken from any SF movie), not a real time game engine !?

They left out the hud in the vid I linked earlier to show off the new visuals. So far as I know cockpit MFD's are not useful but combat seems like it might be interesting enough. 

[Trooper117]

Having tracked down some more videos, I do remember watching an early one a few years ago looking at the transition sequence from planet flying into space flying, and thought it may be something to look out for... then forgot all about it, lol! so thanks for the reminder.

Things have progressed somewhat in the intervening years to what they have now... it's looking good!

[56RAF_Roblex]

I just thought I would record a short easy mission for those people that have not seen Star Citizen recently or at all.    I left in the whole sequence of  waking up, fetching the ship, choosing a mission then flying there.  After that I chopped out  some general exploring to save time and anything else that showed nothing new (also a couple of places where I wasted time messing up ? )    This is probably the quickest and easiest mission,  most have a lot more flight time and probably involve some fighting and/or visits to planets.

 

 

[simfan2015]

Thanks Roblex, SC looks really incredible.

I wonder how difficult it may be to get into it.

I never tried ED because of the supposedly very steep leaning curve to learn to fly ... non-existing spacecraft.

But SC seems the dream of any spacesim fanatic.  

[Brano]

E:D? Didn't play it for year or more. First they screwed the game with idiotic Engineers update and finished it with even more idiotic Thargoid plot. Its enough to watch Obsidian Ant videos on utube. The game plays itself with or without me ?

[simfan2015]

I sure hope the SC deam comes true for all the people who invested in it.

OTOH I, personally, hope RSI can produce SQ42 too and make it into that space-game that will do just 1 thing, but do it well : bring those true Wing Commander vibes back in 2020 !

From what I have seen of SC footage I believe the SQ42 game (IF based on the same SC engine ?) could prove ir-re-sist-able !

 

Edited July 29, 2019 by simfan2015

[56RAF_Roblex]

If you have ever been curious then now is the time to try it.  They are allowing anyone to fly one of 5 different types of ship all week.

 

If you decide to buy the game then use the code STAR-YDYV-56JM to get bonus money to buy extras from the shop and in-game credits to buy better weapons etc.

 

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/enlist?referral=STAR-YDYV-56JM

[AndyJWest]

They've been running these 'fly free' promotions for years. Nothing new. As for buying it, I'll wait until it leaves the pre-alpha tech demo state it is currently in. If I live that long...

[56RAF_Roblex]

Yes but the point is that because it is still in Alpha,  the game people may have tested a few years ago is not the same as the one available today.  If someone tried it in 2017 and wants to see where they are at now then they would be unlikely to know when the free play week is.    

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I bought into early access (a mistake I regret) and considering that this product has been funded to the tune of  $239,426,776 I would expect so much more from  Chris "I'm waiting for new tech" Roberts and team than what is currently available. 

 

[Gambit21]

Yep - it’s a gigantic farce.

[56RAF_Roblex]

On 10/27/2019 at 7:52 AM, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

I bought into early access (a mistake I regret) and considering that this product has been funded to the tune of  $239,426,776 I would expect so much more from  Chris "I'm waiting for new tech" Roberts and team than what is currently available. 

 

 

The important tech we have been waiting for is Server Side Object Container Streaming which allows the game to keep track of every person and moveable object centrally.  This takes a lot of the load off your PC and allows full persistence eg if you put something down on a planet and fly away and log off for a few days you can come back and pick it up again (as long as nobody else picked it up ? )     Nobody has ever done SSOCS on this scale before but they say they are near the end and it could be in by the end of December.

 

The next big thing is Server Meshing so they can spread the load over several servers and still have each server synchronised with every other server in real time.  This extra capacity will allow them to add even more places of interest such as settlements and space stations and cave networks etc. They have not said how close they are to finishing that so I would guess it will be next year.  They are also aiming to have a new star system live by the end of December  as well as a new city.

 

Anyway. Nobody has to join or pay any more if they don't like it. Personally I paid about $25 three years ago and that gives me access to an ever improving game. I agree progress is slow but  I don't need to pay another penny and don't understand why people bitch about wasting hundreds of dollars on it. Why did they invest hundreds in a game they don't like?

Edited June 27, 2020 by 56RAF_Roblex

[Gambit21]

They have you roped in I see.

I’m not having it.

 

I gave them $42 several years ago now and have given up on ever seeing that money yield a damn thing for me.

 

They're not getting another penny from me.

[56RAF_Roblex]

1 minute ago, Gambit21 said:

They have you roped in I see.

I’m not having it.

 

I gave them $42 several years ago now and have given up on ever seeing that money yield a damn thing for me.

 

They're not getting another penny from me.

 

The way I look at it is that there are many many games out that costing $40 that do not provide as much gameplay as the current unfinished SC and it keeps getting bigger & better every three month sfor no extra outlay. 

[Gambit21]

Where is Squadron 42?

[56RAF_Roblex]

17 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Where is Squadron 42?

 

Not my thing but they plan to be out next Summer.   Have you seen the one hour gameplay video?    Considering that is from over 18 months ago and looked finished you can't help wondering why it has not been released yet but maybe it needed a lot of work to add more than an hours content and make it work on a normal PC?

 

 

Edited October 27, 2019 by 56RAF_Roblex