Flaps in General Russian side and more.

[GOZR]

Long ago before Oleg Maddox left we were supposed to have the flaps corrected but it never happened in time. I Know I was writing ;).. The new La5 is much more correct due that it's flaps for that matter.. I am pleased .. So if you want a better plane get te new La5.  You must understand that when the Flaps are down the nose goes down fondamental of aerodynamics and a very good reason for .. The pilot could see the runway better then adjusted the balance with throttle RPM , Same with early jets.. lags.. Yaks..etc must be corrected .. I am glad to talk about how those Yaks feel fly to the team. lets make more complex FM , Sounds, buffets, vibrations...  and torque!!!  here a pic of just a translation of an example.  It would be so appreciated if we aim toward a Simulation aspect of the game wanting to be Sim... let it be a sim.

 

- Correct behaviors of flights and ground

-Weather atmospheric effect on the aircraft on buffets.. sounds.. vibration.. turbulences.. cockpits fogs temps.

-Engines cool and heat effectiveness.. ..  that is a minimum.

Edited March 12, 2024 by GOZR

[[CPT]Crunch]

Correct behaviors?  Try rolling in at ground level 335 mph, roll full nose trim in while dropping flap, bank and pull a max G turn as flaps move full.  You can cut a circle 300 meters across and come out back on your original flight path, raise flaps back up, re-trim and kill whatever was bothering you from behind.  Seems no structural G limits, that along with the speeds you can drop them at defy credibility.  There are actual purpose designed combat flaps in the game that can't pull that off.

 

Try raising your gear on the ground, than do push ups with your flaps, they'll physically jack up the aircraft as many times as you wish all without breaking.

[GOZR]

Exactelly we neeed to re- correct all those nonsens..  it can be so good but iL2 need to respect the good and bad of the airframes..  I wish to work on that.  And this weather.. 

We dont have the clicking cockpits so we need to outperform on the rest.. 

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

Flap abuse is one of the worst attriubtes of this game.

[[CPT]Crunch]

Interesting if you put the gear up and drop flap in the P-40 they instantly fall off upon contact with the dirt, it won't even budge the airframe.  Some have limitations modeled, and some apparently don't or they're in a whole other category.  I still don't believe any WWII fighter can drop full flap running above 300 MPH indicated and pull a 5G+ turn without the wings snapping off let alone the flaps departing.  That's a lot of pressure and torque from an extreme angle.

[GOZR]

A lots of defects can be fixed .. IL2 team may running out of staff.. but we can help. ( I can ) we cannot give up on Sim that we followed for more than 2 decades.  Some of us fly or flew irl and on good old aircraft

I am already helping a developer for another sim but IL2 has my heart.  

Edited March 13, 2024 by GOZR

[LukeFF]

Guys, I've said it a thousand times, but I guess it needs to be said again: if you see a perceived problem, post your sources in the form of track files and any supporting original sources that show what you think is an issue. 

[GOZR]

Luke.. I flew.. i know.  I am a source.. now one picture is posted on top.  Plz Read it.. clear  And after 20 years if you don't know that many aircraft act weirdly .... We have a problem lol..  it's very important to know the people who knew to fly them irl and apply it as help for the way some aircraft act. A video was posted years ago when il2GB started and When I was helping on Rise Of Flight with Jason and our team at the time.

Try it please by yourself no jeed of a track.. it's obvious really.   But if you really need I can do it.. asap

Adding a better tune to FM is very important only pilots will tell.. no programmers or math calculs on how the plane feels.

 

[LukeFF]

GOZR, we've been around and around on this - the fact you are a pilot is great, but that and an excerpt from who knows what in your first post is not enough actionable information for the team. Pretty much everything that has been changed with flight and damage modeling from day one of IL2 GB has been sourced with both original source material and track & mission files showing what the problem is. It's nothing unusual to request that and it's quite normal in any sort of software development - you need a reliable way to repeat a problem before it can be fixed. 

 

This sort of stuff (among other things in this topic):

 

21 hours ago, GOZR said:

It would be so appreciated if we aim toward a Simulation aspect of the game wanting to be Sim... let it be a sim.

 

16 hours ago, GOZR said:

Exactelly we neeed to re- correct all those nonsens..

 

9 hours ago, GOZR said:

IL2 team may running out of staff..

 

9 minutes ago, GOZR said:

I flew.. i know.  I am a source..

 

9 minutes ago, GOZR said:

it's obvious really

 

...is entirely unhelpful.

[[CPT]Crunch]

Already done one, seems to be no response.

[GOZR]

2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

GOZR, we've been around and around on this - the fact you are a pilot is great, but that and an excerpt from who knows what in your first post is not enough actionable information for the team. Pretty much everything that has been changed with flight and damage modeling from day one of IL2 GB has been sourced with both original source material and track & mission files showing what the problem is. It's nothing unusual to request that and it's quite normal in any sort of software development - you need a reliable way to repeat a problem before it can be fixed. 

 

This sort of stuff (among other things in this topic):

 

 

 

 

 

 

...is entirely unhelpful.

Ok .. so Luke try the new La5... do your flaps and gears.. it will nose down as it should .. normally in rl in total is a bit more but it's ok, if you let go the stick and wont touch the throttle and props.

So explain to me why the others wont follow the same principals ?  

 

When I say short in staff.. why bad ? Yes .. we can help defenitelly.  Do you see the positive on it? All good.. 

To request is absolutelly right yes i agree with you but i ignorantly assumed. 

Edited March 13, 2024 by GOZR

[GOZR]

Luke nothing mad or bad.. just wanting the best.  And see what to do.. for us to appreciate.. Performances is a thing that the team are good at it all depends of many factors but I love and good a the feel a d how the planes react, and that is what coders etc need .  Fun too

Edited March 13, 2024 by GOZR

[LuftManu]

Hello guys,

 

If there is something wrong (looks like you guys are certain it is) please, send a track and try to have the best source information so the team can work with it. ?

 

If they can change it (And I am sure they also want to keep improving any part of the FMs, as we have seen in latest update) they will take a look for sure, but please remember that they can’t reply to every thread.

 

@[CPT]Crunch Thanks for the report! But don’t rely on a “written” response. As I was writing above, they might not have time to answer in all posts, even if they are going to fix a found issue.

 

I know that if something is wrong, everybody wants the team to adjust it or fix it as soon as possible, but days only have 24h! So sometimes these adjustments might come down the road.

 

Don’t let a “no reply” stopping you for a good report with good sources. The team and other players will thank you ?

[LukeFF]

19 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Already done one, seems to be no response.

 

Thank you, I'll pass along the report. Sometimes in the busyness of everything stuff like this gets overlooked.

[GOZR]

Yes same for The P39.. it reacted a lot like the regular Soviet aircraft which they were starting to have lots of experiences with and creating some very good pilots.  Also due to its low, mid air good performances.. Not high.

 

It would be great to go and re evaluate each by case. We have real pilots that know the feel and many amazing knowledgeable members with a huge scources of documents and passions. Ready to help because remember IL2.. DCS ..fs2020 Condor are not just for entertainment.. but therapeutic for many .. having details is great.  The community is amazing.. and a great deal of resources.

 

[JG1_Vonrd]

On 3/12/2024 at 11:49 AM, GOZR said:

You must understand that when the Flaps are down the nose goes down

I am also a RL pilot. I've not flown any WWII warbirds (probably the closest would be a Pilatus PC-7 and an Aero L-39. I can't remember whether they pitched up or down with flaps. The L-39 automatically moves the pitch trim with flap application).

I have have flown quite a few GA aircraft. Some pitch up, some pitch down. Again, I can't remember which do which but always refer to the POH before flying an unfamiliar aircraft.

For the planes in GB, I would think that the devs have researched the individual, official POH or Pilot's notes. If you don't read and reference those documents, you are just giving an opinion of how you think the aircraft should react.

[GOZR]

3 hours ago, JG1_Vonrd said:

I am also a RL pilot. I've not flown any WWII warbirds (probably the closest would be a Pilatus PC-7 and an Aero L-39. I can't remember whether they pitched up or down with flaps. The L-39 automatically moves the pitch trim with flap application).

I have have flown quite a few GA aircraft. Some pitch up, some pitch down. Again, I can't remember which do which but always refer to the POH before flying an unfamiliar aircraft.

For the planes in GB, I would think that the devs have researched the individual, official POH or Pilot's notes. If you don't read and reference those documents, you are just giving an opinion of how you think the aircraft should react.

Yes agree hard to remember for things as switches etc exact byt I flews Yaks so i know how important it is.  We can all give inputs.. great for refresh and talk about.. 

[LukeFF]

From a Yak-9 manual:

 

[Gavrick]

2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

From a Yak-9 manual:

"As soon as the flaps are released, the plane will be thrown up and the speed will quickly decrease."

[Gavrick]

Аnd in addition to the drawing. Please note that in the picture the view is coming from a point higher than usual, and with the canopy (probably) open. If you raise your head as much as possible in the simulator - then with a light prop, and the throttle at idle, at a speed of 210kph - the view will be almost the same.

[LukeFF]

28 minutes ago, Gavrick said:

"As soon as the flaps are released, the plane will be thrown up and the speed will quickly decrease."

 

Thanks - didn't want to give a bad translation. ?

[Gavrick]

And about La-5.

 

1 - Throttle at idle

2 -Head temperature more tat 120 C

3 - Speed not less 250 kph,

4 - Before flap release make pull force at stick (nose-up moment) by elevator trimmer.

5 - Release the flaps.

6 - Check flaps.

 

So - La-5 has a nose-down moment after flap release. Same as GB.

[=TU=flynvrtd]

Add to this the ridiculous use of flaps with spitfires for turning in combat.

 

Flaps that drop nearly 90 degrees. Which are intended to induce drag for landing. 

These should be forcing a HARD nose down moment when deployed that would not be of any benefit in pulling G for a turn.

[Stonehouse]

On 6/22/2024 at 1:00 AM, =TU=flynvrtd said:

Flaps that drop nearly 90 degrees.

Spitfire flaps are only 2 positions up or down and are for landing. You can't even use them to assist with takeoff via cockpit controls. The Royal Navy Seafires used initially a wooden wedge and later spring-loaded pins to hold them partially open to help getting off carrier decks and the wedge/pin would drop out once the aircraft was airborne. A lot of British aircraft are like this. GB should actually prevent their use for other than landing flaps and in any case their max speed was around 160 mph IAS (Spit IX). The Spitfire VI pilot notes specifically mention that they are pneumatically driven and cannot be used for takeoff. I am guessing that at more than 160mph you may not be able to extend them if the airflow was more than the pneumatics could move. IE the airflow would force the flap closed. I don't believe the pilots were likely to use them as combat flaps. 

 

I think the devs would have to enhance the game to specifically have a parameter for combat flap use. Currently the aircraft AI file has similar to the below. There is nothing specific for the combat flap position, so my guess is that position 2 is always used. So, all aircraft that had more than just UP or DOWN and have ability to use combat flaps are fine but particularly British aircraft are not. My belief is that a CombatFlapsAngle parameter would need to be added. This would allow aircraft like the Spitfire to have a CombatFlapsAngle of 1 (ie same as takeoff or fully up) and others to have a 2. Quite likely this could be a reasonably expensive change as my guess is that it would need to be shoehorned into the general FM code and all aircraft AI files updated. Plus, humans would need to have restrictions imposed to prevent or punish flap misuse (perhaps already there?)

 

Spitfire IXe

    MaxFlapsCAS            = 150.0
    MinFlapsCAS            = 160.0
    TakeOFFFlapsAngle      = 1   // 0..1 flap position during takeoff
    LandingFlapsAngle      = 2   // 0..1 flap position in landing configuration
    FlapsPosQuantity       = 2

 

P51D

    MaxFlapsCAS            = 150.0
    MinFlapsCAS            = 160.0

    TakeOFFFlapsAngle      = 2            // Flap position number during takeoff, with discrete control, from 1 to max. numbers
    LandingFlapsAngle      = 6            // Flap position number during landing, with discrete control, from 1 to max. numbers
    FlapsPosQuantity       = 6            // Discrete control for number of positions >0

 

Excerpt from Seafire I, II, III manual

 

Edited June 24, 2024 by Stonehouse