Discussion of TF 6.5 Aircraft Preview

[Buffo002]

Attacks on targets in Germany itself were initiated by the 8th Air Force starting from British bases on January 27, 1943, sending only 27 B-24s and 64 B-17s over the port of Wilhelmshaven and the ammunition depot at nearby Mariensiel. So, clearing out the Avro Lancaster earlier is a good type for a new plane in CoD, I think. Their first large-scale combat flight was in April 1941, almost a year before the B-24's experimental first combat deployment.

[Volant_Eagle]

5 hours ago, Buffo002 said:

Attacks on targets in Germany itself were initiated by the 8th Air Force starting from British bases on January 27, 1943, sending only 27 B-24s and 64 B-17s over the port of Wilhelmshaven and the ammunition depot at nearby Mariensiel. So, clearing out the Avro Lancaster earlier is a good type for a new plane in CoD, I think. Their first large-scale combat flight was in April 1941, almost a year before the B-24's experimental first combat deployment.

Once again, March 1942 for the Lancaster. If we want a 4 engine heavy for 1941 the only realistic option is the Short Stirling.

 

I completely agree that the Lancaster is an excellent choice for the next 4-engine addition to this sim after the B-17. I can't really think of a better option. However I personally would like to see the early war more well fleshed out before moving on to mid and late war. Partly because mid and late war have been done over and over again by nearly every sim touching WW2. Early war hasn't had nearly as much representation. And partly because people tend to fly and want the better aircraft in any particular sim (understandable, especially in MP). Once we have plenty of aircraft from 1942 for example, it seems to me like there might be less of a chance for all the gaps in 1940 and 1941 to get filled in. Most people will want more 1942 or to move on to 1943, so 40 and 41 will get left behind until we finish the war. At that point who knows if this sim will be a thing or not anymore. Early war also seems to be the niche in the market that only this sim is catering to right now. I'm probably looking to hard into this though. And maybe thinking too much about my own interests instead of what's best for the sim and the community.

 

I imagine most players or potential players are most interested in the most well known and iconic points of WW2 aviation. So it's probably best for both TFS and the player community if those points get hit first. I'm really hoping that both the B-17 and the Lancaster (and eventually B-24) will make this sim stand out and become popular again. I imagine it will.

 

I may have just noticed something though... the announcement says "It will cover the period 1940-42". Without a doubt the Lancaster has to be the undisputed centerpiece of this DLC, but it only operated 1 out of the 3 years this DLC is supposed to cover. ...so are we getting another bomber with it?

Armstrong Whitworth Whitley

 

I suppose the Wellington already works just perfectly fine for this period. But the Whitley and the Hampden seem to be the most glaring holes in the early war British line up right now. Yes the Wellington is without a doubt the better bomber of the three. But during 41 and especially 40, both the Whitley and the the "flying suitcase" would have been just as frequent a sight as a Wimpy. Not to mention that unlike the other two, the Whitley was designed from the ground up as a night bomber. It just doesn't seem like there could be any better place to include this aircraft than a DLC for 1940-1942 specifically covering night operations.

 

Given that the DLC is only a .5 and likely will cost less than a normal DLC, I might be a bit optimistic to expect another new bomber type on top of a new 4 engine bomber. Still, I do wonder what else we might get. Making the Blenheim Mk I and Defiant flyable? That would be freaking awesome too! Or maybe a night fighter Havoc? In that case we might also get a DB-7 for the "Stealth" Battle of France update.

 

 

 

[Buffo002]

19 hours ago, Volant_Eagle said:

Once again, March 1942 for the Lancaster. If we want a 4 engine heavy for 1941 the only realistic option is the Short Stirling.

 

I completely agree that the Lancaster is an excellent choice for the next 4-engine addition to this sim after the B-17. I can't really think of a better option. However I personally would like to see the early war more well fleshed out before moving on to mid and late war. Partly because mid and late war have been done over and over again by nearly every sim touching WW2. Early war hasn't had nearly as much representation. And partly because people tend to fly and want the better aircraft in any particular sim (understandable, especially in MP). Once we have plenty of aircraft from 1942 for example, it seems to me like there might be less of a chance for all the gaps in 1940 and 1941 to get filled in. Most people will want more 1942 or to move on to 1943, so 40 and 41 will get left behind until we finish the war. At that point who knows if this sim will be a thing or not anymore. Early war also seems to be the niche in the market that only this sim is catering to right now. I'm probably looking to hard into this though. And maybe thinking too much about my own interests instead of what's best for the sim and the community.

 

I imagine most players or potential players are most interested in the most well known and iconic points of WW2 aviation. So it's probably best for both TFS and the player community if those points get hit first. I'm really hoping that both the B-17 and the Lancaster (and eventually B-24) will make this sim stand out and become popular again. I imagine it will.

 

I may have just noticed something though... the announcement says "It will cover the period 1940-42". Without a doubt the Lancaster has to be the undisputed centerpiece of this DLC, but it only operated 1 out of the 3 years this DLC is supposed to cover. ...so are we getting another bomber with it?

Armstrong Whitworth Whitley

 

I suppose the Wellington already works just perfectly fine for this period. But the Whitley and the Hampden seem to be the most glaring holes in the early war British line up right now. Yes the Wellington is without a doubt the better bomber of the three. But during 41 and especially 40, both the Whitley and the the "flying suitcase" would have been just as frequent a sight as a Wimpy. Not to mention that unlike the other two, the Whitley was designed from the ground up as a night bomber. It just doesn't seem like there could be any better place to include this aircraft than a DLC for 1940-1942 specifically covering night operations.

 

Given that the DLC is only a .5 and likely will cost less than a normal DLC, I might be a bit optimistic to expect another new bomber type on top of a new 4 engine bomber. Still, I do wonder what else we might get. Making the Blenheim Mk I and Defiant flyable? That would be freaking awesome too! Or maybe a night fighter Havoc? In that case we might also get a DB-7 for the "Stealth" Battle of France update.

 

 

 

For 1940 and 1941 the types would be:   

Bristol Beaufort, Armstrong Whitworth Whitley, Avro 679 Manchester

[FurphyForum]

And don't forget the earlier marks of the Halifax for that time period.

 

[Buzzsaw]

Hello All

 

My apologies for the delay in responding... it has been a busy time with post holiday catch up etc.

 

---

 

In response to the various questions:

 

-  In the future TF plans on introducing a new map which will include areas attacked by the RAF night bombing campaign in 1942-early 1944... in addition the map will work for many of the areas targeted by the 8th Air Force from March 1943/ to early 1944.  Yes, this map would include the area of the Roer river dams attacked by the 'Dambusters'.  This will be a larger map than we have previously released... likely to be 800 km X 800 km.  It will cover Belgium/Holland/parts of France and the coast of northern Germany up to Hamburg.  It also would work for a 'Blitzkrieg' 1940 scenario, as well as a 'Battle of the Ardennes' 1944, 'Market Garden' 1944, etc. if TF chooses to go there.  This map will be a major undertaking and for those who would like to see it released as soon as possible, and who have the skills to advance development, we would encourage them to approach TF about joining and contributing.  We will release more details about this map when we have something to show.

 

-  The RAF did use the Wellington and Lancaster to bomb targets in France at night, for example, Amiens, Boulogne, Rouen, Le Havre, etc, so the existing Channel and to be released Dieppe maps will work for some scenarios.  Plus of course, we expect the players to use the aircraft for imaginary scenarios in the same way as DCS aircraft are used on their maps.

 

-  We are not planning on introducing any additional new RAF bombers or twin engined types for the TF 6.5 DLC other than the Lancaster.  In the future, (likely when the expanded map is released) we may look at adding the Hampden or Whitley, depending on which is easier to model... these, along with the Wellington, were the most commonly used night bombers prior to the Lancaster.  Guy Gibson flew a Hampden for one of his tours.  We will definitely introduce new Lancaster variants, including B.III Dam Buster types and likely Lancaster B.II in later releases after TF 6.5.  We also may introduce another RAF 4 engined type at that same time.  We expect to release other Allied twin engined bomber/attack/NF types in the upcoming TF 7.0, 8.0 etc. DLC's.  The Beaufighter VI is already planned for TF 6.0... although only in dayfighter/attack form... but you can guess as an existing aircraft it will likely be available in NF form for TF 6.5.  ?  Same applies to the Ju-88C-6, also planned for TF 6.0.

 

-  The TF 6.5 DLC will also focus on the German night bombing campaign from late 1940 to 1942... so players will have the opportunity to fly the existing German bombers in that role.  In addition, the existing British and German nightfighters will be usable in a defensive, or offensive 'night intruder' role.  For example, the Ju-88C-1/C-2 were used as night intruders over British bomber airfields early in this period.  (without airborne radar)

 

-  British airborne radar systems were used from the fall of 1940, so during the period of the Blitz and attacks on other cities.  The German Lichtenstein system was operational in a test basis from August of 1941, and by 1942, used fairly regularly.  These systems will be present in nightfighters available in TF 6.5 based on appropriate dates.

 

-  Regarding the number of aircraft in TF 6.5:  There will be one new aircraft type, (Lancaster) and multiple new aircraft variants.

 

-  Regarding flyable crew positions on the Lancaster... similar to what we have now on Wellington, with the addition of the aircraft engineer.  Players can jump to positions other than the pilot.  In multiplayer, multiple players can occupy the aircraft.

 

-  We plan on introducing new AI routines for the night environment.

 

EDIT CORRECTION:

 

Map will not include Augsberg.

[Missionbug]

A great deal to look forward to here for all of us, something to suit all tastes I think, hope all goes well and thanks to all the team, really appreciated.

 

Take care and be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.

[BOO]

Though the current map would exclude 1 and 5 Group airfields, the Hampden would be a welcomed and approriate inclusion which, along with the wellington would fit well into the 40/41 period. 

 

@Buzzsaw, whilst still very much a hope, would the extended map you spoke about include the UK East Coast, Midlands and North Yorkshire as well as Europe ir is that simply be too much to expect given whay will be the limited appeal of realistically long bomber missions?

[Buzzsaw]

6 hours ago, BOO said:

Though the current map would exclude 1 and 5 Group airfields, the Hampden would be a welcomed and approriate inclusion which, along with the wellington would fit well into the 40/41 period. 

 

@Buzzsaw, whilst still very much a hope, would the extended map you spoke about include the UK East Coast, Midlands and North Yorkshire as well as Europe ir is that simply be too much to expect given whay will be the limited appeal of realistically long bomber missions?

Map will include parts of Eastern Britain, including Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex and Kent.

 

Although players may not want to regularly play historically accurate missions on these maps in multiplayer due to the length of time required to for example, fly from Norfolk to Hamburg, we prefer to have this as an option for those who want to experience what the real pilots/crew did.

 

And in singleplayer, with the option to go auto pilot and 16 X speed, this is not as much of a problem.  We expect most of the players who fly this DLC to play in singleplayer.

[Mysticpuma]

Will the Lancaster have multi-crew? So it can have a Pilot, bomb aimer, (Navigator?) and a rear/front and turret gunner position, all possible to flown at the same time by a group of players?

[BOO]

11 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

Will the Lancaster have multi-crew? So it can have a Pilot, bomb aimer, (Navigator?) and a rear/front and turret gunner position, all possible to flown at the same time by a group of players?

From Buzzsaws reply

 

-  Regarding flyable crew positions on the Lancaster... similar to what we have now on Wellington, with the addition of the aircraft engineer.  Players can jump to positions other than the pilot.  In multiplayer, multiple players can occupy the aircraft.

Edited January 7, 2024 by BOO

[BOO]

In the future, (likely when the expanded map is released) we may look at adding the Hampden or Whitley, depending on which is easier to model... 

 

@Buzzsaw There are two Hampdens in reasonably complete states in the UK and one in Canada as you know.. Whilst Cosford can be difficult to get non public access to, its not impossible, East KIrkby mat be more open and may allow photography/access to unassembed sections and parts if that were required. Whilst Im reluctant to say "I know people". I could certainly make enquires within the ranks of former RAF and RAF revervists I work with who may know people to see how open Cosford may be. 

 

My parter's great uncle was lost in a 144 Sdn Hampden on a raid to Brest in July 41. The aircraft holds a special place in the family for that reason.

Edited January 7, 2024 by BOO

[354thFG_Leifr]

You can pretty much reach out and touch the Hampden at East Kirkby.

I'm sure, with the right approach, TF would be allowed as much access as required for photography and measurements.

[Buzzsaw]

13 hours ago, 86th_Leifr said:

You can pretty much reach out and touch the Hampden at East Kirkby.

I'm sure, with the right approach, TF would be allowed as much access as required for photography and measurements.

We have had very good cooperation with the various museums and aircraft collectors who own aircraft we are interested in modeling.

 

And yes, certainly we would be happy to cooperate with anyone like Boo, who might be close enough to assist in the gathering of images etc.

 

Have to say though, the modeling of a Hampden or Whitley will be some time down the road...  ?

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

Hampden would be nice as it played a role before the "more famous" planes were in use. And now with info on where to get pics, data and so forth is less time consumed later? 

[Trooper117]

Always liked the look of the Hampden... Seeing service from the start of the war until 1942 (Bomber Command), and until 1943 with Coastal Command.

Also saw service in Russia... and I like that it had a torpedo carrying version...

[BOO]

18 hours ago, Buzzsaw said:

We have had very good cooperation with the various museums and aircraft collectors who own aircraft we are interested in modeling.

 

And yes, certainly we would be happy to cooperate with anyone like Boo, who might be close enough to assist in the gathering of images etc.

 

Have to say though, the modeling of a Hampden or Whitley will be some time down the road...  ?

If it comes to pass that the hampden is considered, give me a shout and I'll see how I can help.  Cant see me moving away from LIncolshire for a good few years though I am approaching sniper alley age wise...... 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

I always loved the overall look of the Hampden. A Whitley would be nice, but the Hampden is definitely a looker. About the Whitley, I never liked fake skins in flight sims, but I guess that an available Whitley would make an easy prey for those who'd like to cloth it with a Mitsubishi G3M skin... ?

 

 

[Blitzen]

Just now, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

I always loved the overall look of the Hampden. A Whitley would be nice, but the Hampden is definitely a looker. About the Whitley, I never liked fake skins in flight sims, but I guess that an available Whitley would make an easy prey for those who'd like to cloth it with a Mitsubishi G3M skin... ?

 

 

Wasn't its nickname something like the "Flying frying pan"?

[343KKT_Kintaro]

1 hour ago, Blitzen said:

Wasn't its nickname something like the "Flying frying pan"?

 

 

No idea! I heard nicknames for other aircraft, but not for that one. Not that it hadn't any, it's just because of my ignorance. I just checked in Wikipedia and found nicknames like "Flying Suitcase", "Panhandle", "Flying Tadpole", or "Balalaika" (when in Soviet service). "Panhandle" is close to what apparently you seem to remember Blitzen, but I found that "Flying Tadpole" is, out of those nicknames, clearly the funniest! ?

 

 

[Blitzen]

3 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

 

No idea! I heard nicknames for other aircraft, but not for that one. Not that it hadn't any, it's just because of my ignorance. I just checked in Wikipedia and found nicknames like "Flying Suitcase", "Panhandle", "Flying Tadpole", or "Balalaika" (when in Soviet service). "Panhandle" is close to what apparently you seem to remember Blitzen, but I found that "Flying Tadpole" is, out of those nicknames, clearly the funniest! ?

 

 

Sorry it just came to me: not "Frying Pan", but "Pancake!" ( I think?)

[Peachy9]

So no 2 Group aircraft - Boston, Ventura and Mosquito BIV that took the fight to Germany in Daylight from 1941-1942? 

[Buzzsaw]

11 minutes ago, Peachy9 said:

So no 2 Group aircraft - Boston, Ventura and Mosquito BIV that took the fight to Germany in Daylight from 1941-1942? 

Both the Boston and Mosquito are on our list.

 

I can't say more at this point without giving away too much about our DLC's after that... they will not be in TF 6.0/6.5... but will arrive later.

 

These were mainly daylight bombers at this stage of the war, therefore not the focus of TF 6.5.

 

The Mossie NF was not in as heavy use as the Beaufighter in 1942 in the NF role.

[343KKT_Kintaro]

3 hours ago, Blitzen said:

Sorry it just came to me: not "Frying Pan", but "Pancake!" ( I think?)

 

 

"Pancake" as a nickname for the Hampden?  No idea!

 

 

36 minutes ago, Buzzsaw said:

Both the Boston and Mosquito are on our list

 

 

List of what, Buzzsaw? List of planned future flyable aircraft? Is this the confirmation that at some point in the future these aircraft will be flyable in IL2CoD?

 

 

[major_setback]

14 hours ago, Blitzen said:

Wasn't its nickname something like the "Flying frying pan"?

 

The flying suitcase?

[Peachy9]

9 hours ago, Buzzsaw said:

Both the Boston and Mosquito are on our list.

 

I can't say more at this point without giving away too much about our DLC's after that... they will not be in TF 6.0/6.5... but will arrive later.

 

These were mainly daylight bombers at this stage of the war, therefore not the focus of TF 6.5.

 

The Mossie NF was not in as heavy use as the Beaufighter in 1942 in the NF role.

 

 

Please have Mossie Bomber though rather than FB or NF

Pretty Please

 

[Peachy9]

Spot the mossie

[BOO]

4 hours ago, major_setback said:

 

The flying suitcase?

 

13 hours ago, Blitzen said:

Sorry it just came to me: not "Frying Pan", but "Pancake!" ( I think?)

 

Flying Suitcase and Flying Panhandle

[343KKT_Kintaro]

8 hours ago, Peachy9 said:

Spot the mossie

 

 

 

What have I won?  ?

 

 

 

 

[Buzzsaw]

12 hours ago, Peachy9 said:

 

 

Please have Mossie Bomber though rather than FB or NF

Pretty Please

 

If we build the Mosquito, there will be both versions... same as the Beaufighter.

[Blitzen]

On 1/9/2024 at 7:24 AM, major_setback said:

 

The flying suitcase?

I thought it was "Pancake" because of the thin fuselage, but I guess the last word goes to Wikipedia...at least for now: 

 

"The slim and compact fuselage of the aircraft was quite cramped, being wide enough only for a single person. The navigator sat behind the pilot and access in the cockpit required folding down the seats. Once in place, the crew had almost no room to move and were typically uncomfortable during long missions.^[14] Aircrews referred to the Hampden by various nicknames due to this, such as Flying Suitcase, Panhandle, and Flying Tadpole.^[4]

I did my first flight and first tour on Hampdens. A beautiful aeroplane to fly, terrible to fly in! Cramped, no heat, no facilities where you could relieve yourself. You got in there and you were stuck there. The aeroplane was like a fighter. It was only 3 feet wide on the outside of the fuselage and the pilot was a very busy person. There were 111 items for the pilot to take care of because on the original aircraft he had not only to find the instruments, the engine and all that, but also he had all the bomb switches to hold the bombs."

(BTW: Pretty nicely Modeled an Modded ( by SAS in my case,)back in the original Il-2.)

[Trooper117]

I've always known it as ''the flying suitcase''... stand an old suitcase up and you will see the similarity.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2024 by Trooper117

[Peachy9]

On 1/10/2024 at 3:01 AM, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

 

 

What have I won?  ?

 

 

 

 

 

A like!!!

[Feldgrun]

[343KKT_Kintaro]

On 1/11/2024 at 10:56 AM, Trooper117 said:

I've always known it as ''the flying suitcase''... stand an old suitcase up and you will see the similarity.

 

 

Narrow and elevated fuselage... makes sense...

 

Now, Buzzsaw let's tak about the content of TF6.5... how many new flyables? There's no need to tell the types... Only the number of new types... come on... how many new types are planned?

 

 

 

[Buffo002]

delete chat sorry

 

Edited January 12, 2024 by Buffo002

[BOO]

8 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

 

Narrow and elevated fuselage... makes sense...

 

Now, Buzzsaw let's tak about the content of TF6.5... how many new flyables? There's no need to tell the types... Only the number of new types... come on... how many new types are planned?

 

 

 

 

From Buzzsaw's previous post above

 

-  Regarding the number of aircraft in TF 6.5:  There will be one new aircraft type, (Lancaster) and multiple new aircraft variants

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Multiple is not an accurate number! 

[Buzzsaw]

9 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

 

Narrow and elevated fuselage... makes sense...

 

Now, Buzzsaw let's tak about the content of TF6.5... how many new flyables? There's no need to tell the types... Only the number of new types... come on... how many new types are planned?

 

 

 

I can't go into absolute details until the official announcement.

 

As far as numbers... as mentioned, 1 completely new aircraft, (Lancaster) and multiple new variants.

[BOO]

9 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

Multiple is not an accurate number! 

 

1 is not multiple. You asked how many new types. The answee is one. 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

You're right Boo, Buzzsaw clarified it too. Many thanks, both of you.